Re: Aspie Unity

April 21, 2005

> Why can't you tell the doctor you want

> off the meds? e

I think he can.

I think the implication is that he believes the doctor will

forcably institutionalize him if he refuses.

Generally that is not the case. In the US, to forcably

institutionalize someone, one must prove imminent threat of harm

to oneself or to others. The imminent threat of harm part does

not reach to a perceived psychological well-being from taking

drugs. An example of imminent threat of harm would be serious

physical injury. These are determinations made by a judge in a

court of law; not by some Psyciatrist who just got a free donut

dinner from the Ritalin sales rep.

" Loss of self-esteem " is not an imminent threat of harm, except

maybe on a website. ( " Loss of self-esteem " is either a result

of something or a " red flag " for something.)

Once institutionalized, it's more likely that drugs can be

forced, but only if one is formally committed or otherwise signs

a waiver. Without that, forced drugging is common law assault.

Obviously different countries have different rules in this

regard, but I suspect that the only place you'll see forced

drugging is in a book by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn ( " The Gulag

Archipelago " ).

That said, I had seen people committed to mental institutions.

The FBO where I took my primary pilot training would transport

prisoners and mental patients for the State of Idaho, and I

remember talking to one or two of them. I suppose some of

people I thought were prisoners were actually committed mental

patients. In either case, there definitely were people who were

" committed " in one form or another to the state mental

institutions. Needless to say, I wasn't involved with that part

of the FBO's business.

I would not have been aware of autism beyond Temple Grandin, but

it seemed that the people being transported to those facilities

were far more " out of it " than someone with autism. They were

far more " out of it " than someone with autism who is depressed.

- s

April 22, 2005

Thanks for the clarification.

e

RE: Aspie Unity

> Why can't you tell the doctor you want

> off the meds? e

I think he can.

I think the implication is that he believes the doctor will

forcably institutionalize him if he refuses.

Generally that is not the case. In the US, to forcably

institutionalize someone, one must prove imminent threat of harm

to oneself or to others. The imminent threat of harm part does

not reach to a perceived psychological well-being from taking

drugs. An example of imminent threat of harm would be serious

physical injury. These are determinations made by a judge in a

court of law; not by some Psyciatrist who just got a free donut

dinner from the Ritalin sales rep.

" Loss of self-esteem " is not an imminent threat of harm, except

maybe on a website. ( " Loss of self-esteem " is either a result

of something or a " red flag " for something.)

Once institutionalized, it's more likely that drugs can be

forced, but only if one is formally committed or otherwise signs

a waiver. Without that, forced drugging is common law assault.

Obviously different countries have different rules in this

regard, but I suspect that the only place you'll see forced

drugging is in a book by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn ( " The Gulag

Archipelago " ).

That said, I had seen people committed to mental institutions.

The FBO where I took my primary pilot training would transport

prisoners and mental patients for the State of Idaho, and I

remember talking to one or two of them. I suppose some of

people I thought were prisoners were actually committed mental

patients. In either case, there definitely were people who were

" committed " in one form or another to the state mental

institutions. Needless to say, I wasn't involved with that part

of the FBO's business.

I would not have been aware of autism beyond Temple Grandin, but

it seemed that the people being transported to those facilities

were far more " out of it " than someone with autism. They were

far more " out of it " than someone with autism who is depressed.

- s

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005

Thanks for the clarification.

e

RE: Aspie Unity

> Why can't you tell the doctor you want

> off the meds? e

I think he can.

I think the implication is that he believes the doctor will

forcably institutionalize him if he refuses.

Generally that is not the case. In the US, to forcably

institutionalize someone, one must prove imminent threat of harm

to oneself or to others. The imminent threat of harm part does

not reach to a perceived psychological well-being from taking

drugs. An example of imminent threat of harm would be serious

physical injury. These are determinations made by a judge in a

court of law; not by some Psyciatrist who just got a free donut

dinner from the Ritalin sales rep.

" Loss of self-esteem " is not an imminent threat of harm, except

maybe on a website. ( " Loss of self-esteem " is either a result

of something or a " red flag " for something.)

Once institutionalized, it's more likely that drugs can be

forced, but only if one is formally committed or otherwise signs

a waiver. Without that, forced drugging is common law assault.

Obviously different countries have different rules in this

regard, but I suspect that the only place you'll see forced

drugging is in a book by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn ( " The Gulag

Archipelago " ).

That said, I had seen people committed to mental institutions.

The FBO where I took my primary pilot training would transport

prisoners and mental patients for the State of Idaho, and I

remember talking to one or two of them. I suppose some of

people I thought were prisoners were actually committed mental

patients. In either case, there definitely were people who were

" committed " in one form or another to the state mental

institutions. Needless to say, I wasn't involved with that part

of the FBO's business.

I would not have been aware of autism beyond Temple Grandin, but

it seemed that the people being transported to those facilities

were far more " out of it " than someone with autism. They were

far more " out of it " than someone with autism who is depressed.

- s

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005

According to the text books, autism is a spectrum disorder. The difference

between AS

and autism as I understand it is that people with AS tend to have a higher IQ

and a higher

score in verbal IQ than in performance IQ. Both AS (discovered by Hans Asperger

in 1944)

and classic autism (discovered by Leo Kanner in 1943) are communication

disorders

merely spanning in severity. That is how the research I have read defines it.

Hope that

helps.

e

> > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> >

> > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't we use

> some

> > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right words

> at

> > the moment, but am searching.

> > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

According to the text books, autism is a spectrum disorder. The difference

between AS

and autism as I understand it is that people with AS tend to have a higher IQ

and a higher

score in verbal IQ than in performance IQ. Both AS (discovered by Hans Asperger

in 1944)

and classic autism (discovered by Leo Kanner in 1943) are communication

disorders

merely spanning in severity. That is how the research I have read defines it.

Hope that

helps.

e

> > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> >

> > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't we use

> some

> > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right words

> at

> > the moment, but am searching.

> > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

From stuff I've read and from this site, it seems to me that there is

a qualitative difference between Asperger's and autism, not just a

matter of degree. I don't think that translates to superiority any

more than being white is superior to being black. However, the idea of

a spectrum doesn't seem to me (based on limited knowledge) have any

real support. Can anybody tell me why there is a belief that AS and

Autism constitute a spectrum?

Ken

> Thank you for the clarification. So basically the other person I

read was referring to an assumed Aspie superiority(sp?) over

autistics. Interesting.

> e

>

> Re: Re: Aspie Unity

>

> I didn't know being on meds was almost needed for a Dx. I've been on

Paxil

> (which is a seratonin reuptake inhibitor) to control my anxiety for

several

> years. It makes me tired too sometimes, but the way I handle that is

to either

> take it a few hours before I go to sleep or if I take it in the

mornings to

> work in a time in the afternoon when I can take a " Paxil nap " for

about 45

> minutes to sleep off the drowsiness. I also find that actually

eating something

> often helps to boost the energy for a while. It has to be something

fairly

> light with a balance of carbs and protein. Often I'll eat a slice

or two of

> toast and a slice of lean meat along with a piece of fruit or a

salad. That seems

> to work pretty well. Eating too big of a meal just makes me tired

so is

> counter productive.

>

> As for the light skinned black thing. This seems to be a worldwide

> phenomenon. Its not just whites that look down on dark skinned

people, but other

> people do it too. In Africa, it is not uncommon for the leaders to

be more

> lightskinned than the rest of the people. In India, the Higher

castes were almost

> solely populated by lighter skinned people while the darker skinned

folks were

> in the lower casts. Japan has this and a paradox. The higher class

Japanese

> also tended to be in higher the the darker skinned ones. However,

there is a

> small race of Causasian types people in the Northern Islands called

the Ainu.

> They are reputed to have been the original inhabitant of the

Japanese Islands,

> at least the northern ones, but they were wiped out by the Japanese

> ancestors who came to the Islands. Today the Ainu live on what

amount to reservations

> and they are regarded about like Americans treated Amerindians in

the mid

> 1800's, minus the open warfare of course.

>

April 22, 2005

Sorry, I hadn't read your posting before I responded to any earlier one.

So is IQ the only real major difference?

Ken

> > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > >

> > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't we use

> > some

> > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right words

> > at

> > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

, e J wrote:

My doctor put me on Stratera so that I could focus on something other than my area of interest.

I'm on ritalin -- a similar stimulant. It is like night and day for

me. I have depression too so the stimulant may be helping there.

Anyway, my brain must just jump up and down for joy when it gets the

stimulant. Without it I have many more depressed days wanting to stay

in bed.

and the zoo.

April 22, 2005

The only one that I have found.

e

Re: Aspie Unity

Sorry, I hadn't read your posting before I responded to any earlier one.

So is IQ the only real major difference?

Ken

> > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > >

> > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't we use

> > some

> > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right words

> > at

> > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > Rainbow

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005

The only one that I have found.

e

Re: Aspie Unity

Sorry, I hadn't read your posting before I responded to any earlier one.

So is IQ the only real major difference?

Ken

> > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > >

> > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't we use

> > some

> > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right words

> > at

> > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > Rainbow

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005

I've been in many discussions about what is the difference between AS

and autism. Some people theorize that those with classic autism are

in a world of their own and that there is no desire to be part of

this one, whereas those with AS have more desire to communicate. Hope

this makes sense.

> > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > > >

> > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

we use

> > > some

> > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right

words

> > > at

> > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

I've been in many discussions about what is the difference between AS

and autism. Some people theorize that those with classic autism are

in a world of their own and that there is no desire to be part of

this one, whereas those with AS have more desire to communicate. Hope

this makes sense.

> > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > > >

> > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

we use

> > > some

> > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right

words

> > > at

> > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

That's how I see it too, more or less.

I have a hard time relating to the classic concept of autism. I feel

it is quite dissimilar to AS, or such an extreme version it bears

little resemblance. But what is high-functioning autism, and how does

this differ from AS? And are people with classic autism unable to

speak, or do they choose not to? It seems the problems aspies have

are more to do with the social aspect of communicating than an actual

inability to speak.

Kitty

> > > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little

differently. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

> we use

> > > > some

> > > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the

right

> words

> > > > at

> > > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

That's how I see it too, more or less.

I have a hard time relating to the classic concept of autism. I feel

it is quite dissimilar to AS, or such an extreme version it bears

little resemblance. But what is high-functioning autism, and how does

this differ from AS? And are people with classic autism unable to

speak, or do they choose not to? It seems the problems aspies have

are more to do with the social aspect of communicating than an actual

inability to speak.

Kitty

> > > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little

differently. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

> we use

> > > > some

> > > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the

right

> words

> > > > at

> > > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

That's how I see it too, more or less.

I have a hard time relating to the classic concept of autism. I feel

it is quite dissimilar to AS, or such an extreme version it bears

little resemblance. But what is high-functioning autism, and how does

this differ from AS? And are people with classic autism unable to

speak, or do they choose not to? It seems the problems aspies have

are more to do with the social aspect of communicating than an actual

inability to speak.

Kitty

> > > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little

differently. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

> we use

> > > > some

> > > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the

right

> words

> > > > at

> > > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > > Rainbow

April 22, 2005

I've worked with some autistics who broke that mold - perhaps with autism we are

all individuals and generalizations are difficult with this spectrum?

e

Re: Aspie Unity

I've been in many discussions about what is the difference between AS

and autism. Some people theorize that those with classic autism are

in a world of their own and that there is no desire to be part of

this one, whereas those with AS have more desire to communicate. Hope

this makes sense.

> > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > > >

> > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

we use

> > > some

> > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right

words

> > > at

> > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > Rainbow

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005

I've worked with some autistics who broke that mold - perhaps with autism we are

all individuals and generalizations are difficult with this spectrum?

e

Re: Aspie Unity

I've been in many discussions about what is the difference between AS

and autism. Some people theorize that those with classic autism are

in a world of their own and that there is no desire to be part of

this one, whereas those with AS have more desire to communicate. Hope

this makes sense.

> > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > > >

> > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

we use

> > > some

> > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right

words

> > > at

> > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > Rainbow

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005

I've worked with some autistics who broke that mold - perhaps with autism we are

all individuals and generalizations are difficult with this spectrum?

e

Re: Aspie Unity

I've been in many discussions about what is the difference between AS

and autism. Some people theorize that those with classic autism are

in a world of their own and that there is no desire to be part of

this one, whereas those with AS have more desire to communicate. Hope

this makes sense.

> > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little differently. "

> > > >

> > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

we use

> > > some

> > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the right

words

> > > at

> > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > Rainbow

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005

I don't think every concievable issue need be addressed. A workable draft could be made that simply addressed the top 5 or so issues: Social Skill Deficiency, Sensory Issues, Special Interests, Desire to be Useful, Need for Training. Each of these points could be expanded upon briefly and defined in loosely specific terms. That is to say tightly enough to be understandable and give the reading something to relate too, but not so vague that just about anything could apply or leaves the reader confused. Worked into this would be an explanation that some people are more and some less affected by these issues.

Also, having a huge long list would be more of a disadvantage than an advantage. If a long list were presented, most people's reaction would be something like, "Holy Cow, these people are really screwed up! Do I really want to work with/be friends with someone like that?" Keeping it short and simple, on the other hand, would let people know that there are issues, but it won't seem so insurmountable. That would increase their willingness to help out. If they see it as mostly them bending over backwards and getting little in return, then why should they bother?

As for the Aspies reading it, the general statements would also help. If every specific complaint were listed, something which would be impossible, they might not see some of their listed and might feel slighted. This could lead to them losing interest or demanding their issues be added. The result would be constant rewrites and an ever growing list, which would in turn turn off employers and others. By keeping the statements more general, Aspies could see that people have the same class of issues, if not the exact same spelled out. This would increase the odds of them being interested and lessen the need for rewrites.

Well, I have to run. I hope this was clear enough.

April 22, 2005

Because of the severity classic autism does seem dissimilar. High functioning

autism and AS are very difficult to differentiate. Most diagnosticians use the

IQ (verbal vs. performance) to decide whether it is AS or classic autism.

Some people with classic autism are nonverbal - meaning they do not speak.

Research has not discovered why this occurs only that it does. I have worked

with one young man who was autistic and nonverbal and it was a pleasure! The

teaching staff made comments such as, " It's like the two of you speak the same

language. " This is where I first began to wonder exactly how different AS and

autism was. We understood each other, which apparently, was difficult for NTs

to accomplish.

Just like with AS I addressed his needs from the point of view of what was his

area of interest. And just like the kids with AS that I have worked with he

responded. After several months he spoke one word, " Mom " . But I'm not sure

that the verbal interaction was really as important as any interaction. He was

extremely particular who he would interact with - more so than most of the

Aspies I have worked with.

Admittedly I have only had to the pleasure of working with other autistics in

the school/training setting. But every experience has been a pleasure. There

seems to be some kind of common link - whether we want to acknowledge it or not

- that links our minds together. I wish I could find better words to describe

the experience, I am extremely inadequate at this right now, but I suppose the

best suggestion would be to go out and interact with those who have classic

autism and make up your own minds. Then, once having walked a little closer to

their path, we can all decide if AS and autism are truly linked or if they are

two separate entities.

e

Re: Aspie Unity

That's how I see it too, more or less.

I have a hard time relating to the classic concept of autism. I feel

it is quite dissimilar to AS, or such an extreme version it bears

little resemblance. But what is high-functioning autism, and how does

this differ from AS? And are people with classic autism unable to

speak, or do they choose not to? It seems the problems aspies have

are more to do with the social aspect of communicating than an actual

inability to speak.

Kitty

> > > > > > " We're not sick, we're just wired up a little

differently. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Even 'differently' has its own negative connotations. Can't

> we use

> > > > some

> > > > > sort of positive expression? I'm at a loss for just the

right

> words

> > > > at

> > > > > the moment, but am searching.

> > > > > Rainbow

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Don't forget, there are links to other FAM sites on the Links page in the folder

marked " Other FAM Sites. "

________________________________

April 22, 2005