Re: Kombucha Queries

[Guest guest]

>I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big?

>I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and

>forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and

>stuff I added to it.

>Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some

>vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack

>s bottles (which of course have very small openings in

>comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very

>thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the

>air they need provided they at least have some access.

>I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but

>just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar.

>I do of course watch for mold and have found none.

>I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small

>openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies.

>Ideas?

>Sandy

I have found that small openings lead to very long brew times. Here's an

example: I have both 1-gal jars that are taller than wide and have

narrowed opening at the top, as well as 2.25 gal vessels that are wider in

relation to the height, with straight sides so that the opening is almost

the same diameter as the vessel itself. If I set a brew up in one of each

of these two vessels, the 2.25 gal container will get done first.

Now, we all agree that the 1-gal jars are fine to brew with, but

nevertheless brews in those jars spend a lot more time sitting and looking

pretty inactive, compared to the big vessels. It has to do with two

things, but I firmly believe it is both these things: 1) vessels that are

wide and less tall brew faster, and 2) vessels with wider openings brew faster.

I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't choose to

brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in such a

vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not needing it

to provide your supply of KT.

That's what I know about it. THere may be other reasons as well.

Oh, here's some more info on this. Vessels that don't have enough airspace

in them, most particularly ones with narrowed necks such as the gal-jars,

also have been known to sit and sit and SIT! without getting ready. I'm

talking twice or more as long. We had a slew of people one time on this

list all of whom had brews just sit sit sitting, and every one of them

solved the problem by pouring out some of the brew and increasing the

airspace. In their cases, they didn't know any airspace was needed, so

there was no airspace at all.

It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts where

several people will ask the same question all at once. Like earlier today

about the cloves and orange spice tea.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

>I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big?

>I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and

>forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and

>stuff I added to it.

>Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some

>vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack

>s bottles (which of course have very small openings in

>comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very

>thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the

>air they need provided they at least have some access.

>I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but

>just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar.

>I do of course watch for mold and have found none.

>I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small

>openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies.

>Ideas?

>Sandy

I have found that small openings lead to very long brew times. Here's an

example: I have both 1-gal jars that are taller than wide and have

narrowed opening at the top, as well as 2.25 gal vessels that are wider in

relation to the height, with straight sides so that the opening is almost

the same diameter as the vessel itself. If I set a brew up in one of each

of these two vessels, the 2.25 gal container will get done first.

Now, we all agree that the 1-gal jars are fine to brew with, but

nevertheless brews in those jars spend a lot more time sitting and looking

pretty inactive, compared to the big vessels. It has to do with two

things, but I firmly believe it is both these things: 1) vessels that are

wide and less tall brew faster, and 2) vessels with wider openings brew faster.

I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't choose to

brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in such a

vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not needing it

to provide your supply of KT.

That's what I know about it. THere may be other reasons as well.

Oh, here's some more info on this. Vessels that don't have enough airspace

in them, most particularly ones with narrowed necks such as the gal-jars,

also have been known to sit and sit and SIT! without getting ready. I'm

talking twice or more as long. We had a slew of people one time on this

list all of whom had brews just sit sit sitting, and every one of them

solved the problem by pouring out some of the brew and increasing the

airspace. In their cases, they didn't know any airspace was needed, so

there was no airspace at all.

It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts where

several people will ask the same question all at once. Like earlier today

about the cloves and orange spice tea.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

>I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big?

>I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and

>forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and

>stuff I added to it.

>Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some

>vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack

>s bottles (which of course have very small openings in

>comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very

>thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the

>air they need provided they at least have some access.

>I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but

>just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar.

>I do of course watch for mold and have found none.

>I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small

>openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies.

>Ideas?

>Sandy

I have found that small openings lead to very long brew times. Here's an

example: I have both 1-gal jars that are taller than wide and have

narrowed opening at the top, as well as 2.25 gal vessels that are wider in

relation to the height, with straight sides so that the opening is almost

the same diameter as the vessel itself. If I set a brew up in one of each

of these two vessels, the 2.25 gal container will get done first.

Now, we all agree that the 1-gal jars are fine to brew with, but

nevertheless brews in those jars spend a lot more time sitting and looking

pretty inactive, compared to the big vessels. It has to do with two

things, but I firmly believe it is both these things: 1) vessels that are

wide and less tall brew faster, and 2) vessels with wider openings brew faster.

I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't choose to

brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in such a

vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not needing it

to provide your supply of KT.

That's what I know about it. THere may be other reasons as well.

Oh, here's some more info on this. Vessels that don't have enough airspace

in them, most particularly ones with narrowed necks such as the gal-jars,

also have been known to sit and sit and SIT! without getting ready. I'm

talking twice or more as long. We had a slew of people one time on this

list all of whom had brews just sit sit sitting, and every one of them

solved the problem by pouring out some of the brew and increasing the

airspace. In their cases, they didn't know any airspace was needed, so

there was no airspace at all.

It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts where

several people will ask the same question all at once. Like earlier today

about the cloves and orange spice tea.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

Here is a link to a site that sells one just like I have used, I got

mine at Wal-Mart, you can get them in 2 1/4 gallon also. I am

showing this link so you can see that they are PERFECT for Kombucha.

It has a nice lip for the rubberband to hold the top secure too.

http://www.instawares.com/heritage-hill-glass-jar.69349tah.0.7.htm

~Connie~

" I only wish there was a place to buy Kombucha

containers and

> which you don't need to take out a second mortage to pay for them

<LOL>. "

>

> Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I started brewing in a three

quart

> glass jar from WalMart -- it comes with a glass cover, but I use a

tight

> weave dishtowel and a rubber band because there is a nice groove at

the top

> of the jar. When I needed something larger, I went to the 12 quart

glass jar

> in the same line and used it the same way. Then Costco was selling

tulips

> growing in a glass jar in water, and when we finished with the

tulips, I

> kept the jar: it is about six quarts and can be used the same way.

>

> I hope these jars are suitable for brewing: they certainly have

been serving

> us well.

>

> Joyce

> Dallas TX

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here is a link to a site that sells one just like I have used, I got

mine at Wal-Mart, you can get them in 2 1/4 gallon also. I am

showing this link so you can see that they are PERFECT for Kombucha.

It has a nice lip for the rubberband to hold the top secure too.

http://www.instawares.com/heritage-hill-glass-jar.69349tah.0.7.htm

~Connie~

" I only wish there was a place to buy Kombucha

containers and

> which you don't need to take out a second mortage to pay for them

<LOL>. "

>

> Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I started brewing in a three

quart

> glass jar from WalMart -- it comes with a glass cover, but I use a

tight

> weave dishtowel and a rubber band because there is a nice groove at

the top

> of the jar. When I needed something larger, I went to the 12 quart

glass jar

> in the same line and used it the same way. Then Costco was selling

tulips

> growing in a glass jar in water, and when we finished with the

tulips, I

> kept the jar: it is about six quarts and can be used the same way.

>

> I hope these jars are suitable for brewing: they certainly have

been serving

> us well.

>

> Joyce

> Dallas TX

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ikea has the same jar for ,I $6.00 or $7.00

[Guest guest]

Ikea has the same jar for ,I $6.00 or $7.00

[Guest guest]

Ikea has the same jar for ,I $6.00 or $7.00

[Guest guest]

I shall have to do some 'shopping' whilst in the States for these types of

things <LOL>. I shall be able to pack things like that in my suitcase.

-- Re: Kombucha Queries

>Pity they are so hard to come by. I want something that can hold at least

a

>gallon without letting in too much light.

The light really does not seem to be an issue. Plus, you can use a large

cloth as your cover cloth that also covers the vessel. Mine are

lightweight white floursacking type cloths that are tightly woven. In the

summer my vessels get a few minutes of direct rays and the brews seem to

love just those few minutes. For sure, I have noticed no trouble at all

with the light in our kitchen, and we have big greenhouse windows. I use

large 2.25 gallon glass containers (they are made by Anchor Hocking as

cookie jars). I'm sorry that these don't seem to be available in other

countries than the USA.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

I remain a beginner at KT fermentation. My first batch is working in

a gallon brown bottle.

Both wooden barrels, and Italian wooden spigots can be

purchased from Northernbrewer.com....2-5-10 and 15 gallon barrels

are available from 120 to 200 US dollars. If you want French oak,

expect to pay much more as it is air dried and not kiln dried. I was

thinking, if the barrel is on it's side with the bung hole facing

upward and filled to 75% capacity, we could take advantage of the

increased surface area for speedy fermentation. The Belgian brewerys

which ferment with Lactobacillus pump the hot wort (unfermented

sweet liquid) into large shallow tubs in the attic; i.e. head-space

topic from another post.

>

>

> >So does anyone brew KT in wood?

>

> Not yet, but I really really want to! I just need to find a

barrel that

> can be used the way we need it. Wine barrels have the stopper in

the

> middle of the barrel. For kombucha we would need a barrel sitting

up

> vertically, with one open end, with the hole nearer the bottom. I

know a

> source for small oak barrels in several sizes, including 5 gal and

under,

> 10 gal, 15, etc. But the hole is placed in the center and I

talked to the

> retailer and they are not able to specify a different placement of

the

> hole. They could, however, cut off the top for me so I could have

plenty

> of air exchange. It's just occurred to me I could simply put a

plug in the

> original hole and have a new hole cut in the correct place for the

wooden

> spigot.

>

> , would you have any ideas about getting a good setup for a

wooden

> barrel for kombucha fermentation?

>

> --V

>

>

>

> ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

> --A.J. Muste

>

[Guest guest]

Wow! That looks perfect! I shall see if I can buy one of them whilst in

the States for my boyfriend's brew!

-- Re: Kombucha Queries

Here is a link to a site that sells one just like I have used, I got

mine at Wal-Mart, you can get them in 2 1/4 gallon also. I am

showing this link so you can see that they are PERFECT for Kombucha.

It has a nice lip for the rubberband to hold the top secure too.

http://www.instawares.com/heritage-hill-glass-jar.69349tah.0.7.htm

~Connie~

" I only wish there was a place to buy Kombucha

containers and

> which you don't need to take out a second mortage to pay for them

<LOL>. "

>

> Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I started brewing in a three

quart

> glass jar from WalMart -- it comes with a glass cover, but I use a

tight

> weave dishtowel and a rubber band because there is a nice groove at

the top

> of the jar. When I needed something larger, I went to the 12 quart

glass jar

> in the same line and used it the same way. Then Costco was selling

tulips

> growing in a glass jar in water, and when we finished with the

tulips, I

> kept the jar: it is about six quarts and can be used the same way.

>

> I hope these jars are suitable for brewing: they certainly have

been serving

> us well.

>

> Joyce

> Dallas TX

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

It seems to me that the most important factor is not the opening in

the container, but the surface area of the liquid inside the

container. That's where the alcohol produced by the yeasts is oxidized

to acetic acid by the bacteria. As the oxygen is consumed at the

surface, it will be exhausted in the head space and will diffuse from

the outside air. Unless there is a significant restriction of bulk

flow between the outside air and the headspace, there will be plenty

of oxygen for the bacteria. The difference between, say, a pickle jar

and a liquor bottle isn't going to effect the gas exchange very much.

A more significant factor is the enrichment of the headspace with

carbon dioxide, which is heavier than air. Even so there should be

enough oxygen to do the job...

So as long as you're not filling the liquor bottle up into the neck,

it shouldn't be that different from a pickle jar of the same size. Now

if you *did* want to get the scobies back out that's a different story.

Jim

>

> ,

> I know that we need air exchange but does it really have to be big?

> I have put some kt cream into a jar with the lid closed tightly and

> forgot about it. It made a scoby even with all of the cream and

> stuff I added to it.

> Lacking any glass containers around my house (and wanting some

> vinegar) I have stuffed a couple of little scobys into some old Jack

> s bottles (which of course have very small openings in

> comparison to the bottle width) to leave for vinegar. They make very

> thick scobys which would lead me to believe that they will get the

> air they need provided they at least have some access.

> I did this not being worried about getting the scoby back out but

> just to have some nice glass containers of vinegar.

> I do of course watch for mold and have found none.

> I just wondered why we should be so inhibited by air space. Small

> openings would also hinder mold and vinegar flies.

> Ideas?

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

>I shall have to do some 'shopping' whilst in the States for these types of

>things <LOL>. I shall be able to pack things like that in my suitcase.

The 2.25 gal one is pretty big. You might look into packing whatever you

buy and sending it the cheapest method home.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for the information on sources.

>I remain a beginner at KT fermentation. My first batch is working in

>a gallon brown bottle.

> Both wooden barrels, and Italian wooden spigots can be

>purchased from Northernbrewer.com....2-5-10 and 15 gallon barrels

>are available from 120 to 200 US dollars. If you want French oak,

>expect to pay much more as it is air dried and not kiln dried. I was

>thinking, if the barrel is on it's side with the bung hole facing

>upward and filled to 75% capacity, we could take advantage of the

>increased surface area for speedy fermentation.

I'm afraid this would not be sufficient air access. I've discovered that

even if the barrel were only partly filled, if the air hole was just the

small bunghole, it would probably not be enough.

My idea was to have one end of the barrel sawed off as the open top, then

sit the barrel on the other end. So the top would be open and still

covered with the cloth. It would be more akin to a pickle barrel in this

usage, except I would really love to have a spigot down 2-3 inches from the

bottom.

Thanks again. Your perspective is helpful.

--V

>The Belgian brewerys

>which ferment with Lactobacillus pump the hot wort (unfermented

>sweet liquid) into large shallow tubs in the attic; i.e. head-space

>topic from another post.

>

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

Well, I can tell you from experience, and I am very observant, that it may

not seem like it should make a difference but in fact it does. I promise

I'm not theorizing, I'm speaking from long comparison brewing. --V

>It seems to me that the most important factor is not the opening in

>the container, but the surface area of the liquid inside the

>container. That's where the alcohol produced by the yeasts is oxidized

>to acetic acid by the bacteria. As the oxygen is consumed at the

>surface, it will be exhausted in the head space and will diffuse from

>the outside air. Unless there is a significant restriction of bulk

>flow between the outside air and the headspace, there will be plenty

>of oxygen for the bacteria. The difference between, say, a pickle jar

>and a liquor bottle isn't going to effect the gas exchange very much.

>A more significant factor is the enrichment of the headspace with

>carbon dioxide, which is heavier than air. Even so there should be

>enough oxygen to do the job...

>

>So as long as you're not filling the liquor bottle up into the neck,

>it shouldn't be that different from a pickle jar of the same size. Now

>if you *did* want to get the scobies back out that's a different story.

>

>Jim

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

Mmmm.... that is certainly something to think about.

-- Re: Kombucha Queries

>I shall have to do some 'shopping' whilst in the States for these types of

>things <LOL>. I shall be able to pack things like that in my suitcase.

The 2.25 gal one is pretty big. You might look into packing whatever you

buy and sending it the cheapest method home.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

Observations noted! Is it a difference mainly in fermentation time?

Jim -- theorizing beginner

>

> Well, I can tell you from experience, and I am very observant, that

it may

> not seem like it should make a difference but in fact it does. I

promise

> I'm not theorizing, I'm speaking from long comparison brewing. --V

>

> >It seems to me that the most important factor is not the opening in

> >the container, but the surface area of the liquid inside the

> >container. That's where the alcohol produced by the yeasts is oxidized

> >to acetic acid by the bacteria. As the oxygen is consumed at the

> >surface, it will be exhausted in the head space and will diffuse from

> >the outside air. Unless there is a significant restriction of bulk

> >flow between the outside air and the headspace, there will be plenty

> >of oxygen for the bacteria. The difference between, say, a pickle jar

> >and a liquor bottle isn't going to effect the gas exchange very much.

> >A more significant factor is the enrichment of the headspace with

> >carbon dioxide, which is heavier than air. Even so there should be

> >enough oxygen to do the job...

> >

> >So as long as you're not filling the liquor bottle up into the neck,

> >it shouldn't be that different from a pickle jar of the same size. Now

> >if you *did* want to get the scobies back out that's a different story.

> >

> >Jim

>

>

> ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

> --A.J. Muste

>

[Guest guest]

> I'm not a fiend for quickness on the KT, but I certainly wouldn't

choose to

> brew my regular brews in vessels with small openings. To brew in

such a

> vessel in order to have vinegar in a bottle, fine, you're not

needing it

> to provide your supply of KT.

Ok, I get you. I think that what I was trying to point out was that

it would not harm the scoby. (at least it certainly has not hurt

mine) Of course I use my big jugs (with big mouths) and my contious

brew urn for brewing but I could not think of anything to use for

some good kt vinegar until I remembered a couple of old bottles we

had from past Christmas cheers.

I don't really mind that it is just sitting because it was very

vinegary when I put it in there and is great in salad dressing.

> It's an oddity of this list that the same query will run in spurts

where

> several people will ask the same question all at once. Like

earlier today

> about the cloves and orange spice tea.

>

Now I am thinking of a cup of hot spiced tea! mmmMMmm

Cheers,

Sandy

[Guest guest]

>Observations noted! Is it a difference mainly in fermentation time?

>

>Jim -- theorizing beginner

heheh. Mostly, I think.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

>Ok, I get you. I think that what I was trying to point out was that

>it would not harm the scoby. (at least it certainly has not hurt

>mine) Of course I use my big jugs (with big mouths) and my contious

>brew urn for brewing but I could not think of anything to use for

>some good kt vinegar until I remembered a couple of old bottles we

>had from past Christmas cheers.

>I don't really mind that it is just sitting because it was very

>vinegary when I put it in there and is great in salad dressing.

Yes, definitely a situation where the time factor doesn't matter.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste