Re: OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

[Guest guest]

Will, I appreciate your responses and they resonate with me strongly. I am very fortunate to have an all natural vet whom I can reach M-F 9-5 on the phone (when he is not doing farm calls), and there are vets like you out there. My 9 y/o wants to be a vet some days, and when he finds an injured animal has been known to bring it to the house and treat it without telling me--he has yet to do that and choose something that I would think of as the incorrect remedy. I love Crystal Creek Vet Supply(http://www.crystalcreek natural.com) because they always walk me through natural solutions to the few problems I have had. They sell tinctures and herbs (though I am making my own) and even some conventional stuff like milk replacer (don't get me going on that-my kids self-wean just like my 2 legged kids did) I have spent less than $100 on products from them, but I feel that I have gotten that back in advice X10!) I have yet to call my local vet for any problems, except the worm dumping, and it cleared up before I could get a fecal sample to him, so I let it go.

As for the use of synthetic wormers, I would suggest that people read old Acres mags and check out the research done by Mark Purdey (http://www.markpurdey .com). He has studied soils and has linked BSE to depletion of minerals in the soil and the use of pour ons, specifically for the warble fly in England. I have been doing this such a short time, but I have promised myself that I will never have chemicals on this place, and I am surrounded by chemical farmers. When they spray the beans, I get sick (literally) and I get mad. I can't justify doing that because I know and have seen a better way. I talk to a few (I have found 5 in my county) local organic farmers whom I can learn from. It was a great day when one, who has been farming organically for 20 years, told me that each time we talk he learns something new!

Dona

Life is too short to eat grocery store cheese.http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturaldairyanimalshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/JeffCoWI-freecycle

OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the advice from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down to earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective. Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet Farm or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic waste dump out there, folks. After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large animal vet in the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer medicine to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic certification" or any other standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple ruins it for the rest of us. Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and log chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an elastrator band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly poured on wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly repellant, and if the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've rarely been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere that's chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer cow. You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't imagine a farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or doing it "the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten instantly and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet does it!). In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an enormous amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift, ill-informed and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers). It's just the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name. OK, I'll be nice now,Will Winter PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I have to disagree about the advice I've been given. I had a calf with pneumonia and I was told to feed him raw eggs and get some Gatorade or Powerade and keep that up as well as keep him warm. It worked. Nothing toxic about that. Since I have Powerade in the house all the time for my use, I just make sure I have plenty when there's a new calf on the ground. Of course, now I use the internasal pneumonia vaccine and haven't had that problem for 5 years.

I also had a calf that scoured when his mom's milk was too rich for him. Again, the Powerade kept him hydrated and I used Deliver to firm him up. Two days of treatment and he was fine. He was never down and just had to adjust to his mom's incredibly rich Jersey milk. Of course being a little glutton probably didn't help (LOL). I've never seen a calf nurse so much. But, then, she was loaded for bear.

I've never heard of anyone using the kinds of things you describe (except for the chains-thankfully miniature cattle are born so small I haven't had the problem) and I know people out here that have been raising every kind of farm animal there is. I would say you have dealt with some pretty stupid people.

I know there are those that would use crap like that, but at least around here they are apparently smarter then that. Or those old timers are long gone.

I'm a well read person. If someone gave me advice that utilized something that I thought would be harmful, or toxic, I wouldn't do it. But, I've never had anyone advise using that crap.

So to say all advice is bad is just not true. Some is good, safe and extremely helpful.

Now that I've been raising cattle for 7 years and getting good info from the groups I'm in as well as doing my own research on line, I'm getting better at this gig. Always can learn more and I intend to, but there's nothing wrong with asking people for advice. One just has to have the smarts enough to decide what is safe and what isn't. Plus, people today are more into the natural way of healing, especially on this group. I've seen excellent advice given here. And, these people are from all over the country.

Yes, calling a vet is always advisable. However, the first they want to do is get the animal there or charge up the ass to come out. The days of free advice from a vet are long gone. I realize they have to earn their keep, but with fees what they are, not a lot of people can afford to just go to the vet at the drop of a hat.

K.C.

OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the advice from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down to earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective. Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet Farm or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic waste dump out there, folks. After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large animal vet in the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer medicine to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic certification" or any other standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple ruins it for the rest of us. Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and log chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an elastrator band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly poured on wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly repellant, and if the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've rarely been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere that's chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer cow. You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't imagine a farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or doing it "the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten instantly and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet does it!). In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an enormous amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift, ill-informed and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers). It's just the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name. OK, I'll be nice now,Will Winter PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I have to disagree about the advice I've been given. I had a calf with pneumonia and I was told to feed him raw eggs and get some Gatorade or Powerade and keep that up as well as keep him warm. It worked. Nothing toxic about that. Since I have Powerade in the house all the time for my use, I just make sure I have plenty when there's a new calf on the ground. Of course, now I use the internasal pneumonia vaccine and haven't had that problem for 5 years.

I also had a calf that scoured when his mom's milk was too rich for him. Again, the Powerade kept him hydrated and I used Deliver to firm him up. Two days of treatment and he was fine. He was never down and just had to adjust to his mom's incredibly rich Jersey milk. Of course being a little glutton probably didn't help (LOL). I've never seen a calf nurse so much. But, then, she was loaded for bear.

I've never heard of anyone using the kinds of things you describe (except for the chains-thankfully miniature cattle are born so small I haven't had the problem) and I know people out here that have been raising every kind of farm animal there is. I would say you have dealt with some pretty stupid people.

I know there are those that would use crap like that, but at least around here they are apparently smarter then that. Or those old timers are long gone.

I'm a well read person. If someone gave me advice that utilized something that I thought would be harmful, or toxic, I wouldn't do it. But, I've never had anyone advise using that crap.

So to say all advice is bad is just not true. Some is good, safe and extremely helpful.

Now that I've been raising cattle for 7 years and getting good info from the groups I'm in as well as doing my own research on line, I'm getting better at this gig. Always can learn more and I intend to, but there's nothing wrong with asking people for advice. One just has to have the smarts enough to decide what is safe and what isn't. Plus, people today are more into the natural way of healing, especially on this group. I've seen excellent advice given here. And, these people are from all over the country.

Yes, calling a vet is always advisable. However, the first they want to do is get the animal there or charge up the ass to come out. The days of free advice from a vet are long gone. I realize they have to earn their keep, but with fees what they are, not a lot of people can afford to just go to the vet at the drop of a hat.

K.C.

OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the advice from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down to earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective. Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet Farm or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic waste dump out there, folks. After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large animal vet in the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer medicine to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic certification" or any other standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple ruins it for the rest of us. Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and log chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an elastrator band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly poured on wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly repellant, and if the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've rarely been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere that's chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer cow. You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't imagine a farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or doing it "the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten instantly and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet does it!). In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an enormous amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift, ill-informed and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers). It's just the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name. OK, I'll be nice now,Will Winter PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I just visited their site. Thanks for the info. I'm probably going to get the No Fly. Have you ever used it?

K.C.

OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the advice from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down to earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective. Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet Farm or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic waste dump out there, folks. After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large animal vet in the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer medicine to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic certification" or any other standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple ruins it for the rest of us. Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and log chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an elastrator band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly poured on wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly repellant, and if the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've rarely been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere that's chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer cow. You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't imagine a farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or doing it "the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten instantly and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet does it!). In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an enormous amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift, ill-informed and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers). It's just the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name. OK, I'll be nice now,Will Winter PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I just visited their site. Thanks for the info. I'm probably going to get the No Fly. Have you ever used it?

K.C.

OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the advice from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down to earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective. Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet Farm or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic waste dump out there, folks. After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large animal vet in the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer medicine to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic certification" or any other standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple ruins it for the rest of us. Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and log chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an elastrator band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly poured on wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly repellant, and if the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've rarely been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere that's chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer cow. You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't imagine a farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or doing it "the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten instantly and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet does it!). In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an enormous amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift, ill-informed and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers). It's just the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name. OK, I'll be nice now,Will Winter PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Could you find a price list anywhere on that site? Some of that

stuff looks really neat, but I think would be cheaper to make at

home. I make my own fly spray with a gallon of apple cider vinegar,

1-3 ounces of tea tree essential oil (depending on how bad the bugs

are) and spray it on the cow at milking time with a squirt bottle.

Non-toxic, cheap, and I even use it on myself when its really bad

out. It doesn't get rid of all of the flies, but does a pretty darn

good job and the ACV is also supposed to be a good preventative of

external parasites.

Weldon

A Bit of Earth Farm

Litchfield, Ohio

> I just visited their site. Thanks for the info. I'm probably

going to get the No Fly. Have you ever used it?

>

> K.C.

[Guest guest]

Will,

Yikes! I do not know of a natural vet anywhere within 100 miles of TX A & M

country, but am happy to say that I have been able to take advantage of some

wonderful resourse books on homeopathy and natural treatments for my dairy

cows.

What you are describing is exactly why I think consumers are going to begin

looking to buy their dairy, meat veggies and eggs at small farms where

relationships are built, and husbandry practices are able to be seen with

their eyes. I hope so...

Tina in TX

[Guest guest]

hi,

I have to agree with Bill. Bill you must have been in WV to make those

observations. -I have heard many times about using a tractor to pull a

calf, and many folks around here are using antibiotics as soon as the

animal looks crosseyed!-And I'm talking 20- cc for a goat for example.

-It's very difficult to educated people ( I have tried and been labeled

a know-it -all) when farmers have done these things for ions and the"

remedy" worked.-HOw about this one-cutting horns off with a chainsaw:-((

Elke

Will Winter wrote:

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the

advice

from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down

to

earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective.

Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet

Farm

or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic

waste

dump out there, folks.

After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large

animal vet in

the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer

medicine

to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic

certification" or any other

standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple

ruins it

for the rest of us.

Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and

log

chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an

elastrator

band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly

poured on

wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly

repellant, and if

the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've

rarely

been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere

that's

chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer

cow.

You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't

imagine a

farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or

doing it

"the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each

experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten

instantly

and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet

does it!).

In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an

enormous

amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and

teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift,

ill-informed

and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers).

It's just

the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name.

OK, I'll be nice now,

Will Winter

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

..

[Guest guest]

Don't you have animal abuse laws there? I would thing that cutting the horns that way would be considered cruel and inhumane.

K.C.

Re: OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

hi,I have to agree with Bill. Bill you must have been in WV to make those observations. -I have heard many times about using a tractor to pull a calf, and many folks around here are using antibiotics as soon as the animal looks crosseyed!-And I'm talking 20- cc for a goat for example. -It's very difficult to educated people ( I have tried and been labeled a know-it -all) when farmers have done these things for ions and the" remedy" worked.-HOw about this one-cutting horns off with a chainsaw:-((ElkeWill Winter wrote:

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the advice from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down to earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective. Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet Farm or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic waste dump out there, folks. After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large animal vet in the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer medicine to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic certification" or any other standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple ruins it for the rest of us. Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and log chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an elastrator band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly poured on wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly repellant, and if the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've rarely been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere that's chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer cow. You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't imagine a farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or doing it "the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten instantly and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet does it!). In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an enormous amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift, ill-informed and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers). It's just the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name. OK, I'll be nice now,Will Winter PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/. PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Animal abuse laws generally don't apply to livestock, only to pet

type animals. All that is generally required for livestock is food,

water, and some sort of shelter. A woman I work with started the

humane society in our county and has some really heartwrenching

stories, including a horse who had electric wire in his stall so he

could barely move without being shocked, and there was nothing she

could do because he was provided with food and water.

Weldon

A Bit of Earth Farm

Litchfield, Ohio

> Don't you have animal abuse laws there? I would thing that

cutting the horns that way would be considered cruel and inhumane.

>

> K.C.

[Guest guest]

many things done to animals are inhumane but people are used to seeing

it and get prone to it , I guess.-Here's one to make you think-I have

my goat kids put under by our vet for disbudding. Many of my friends

find that extreme. I think anytime you ahve your head burnt it would

hurt like hell-but like I said, people are used to doing it and claim

the kids get "over it" very fast, so it is done. In England on theother

hand it is considered" undue cruelty to animals"and most people put

their kids to sleep for the procedure. It would help if the medicine

would be available to goat/cow producers, so we don't have to spend a

fortune on vet bills to have it done.

Elke

Tinybabe wrote:

Don't you have animal abuse laws there? I would thing

that cutting the horns that way would be considered cruel and inhumane.

K.C.

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Elke

To:

RawDairy

Sent:

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 10:47 AM

Subject:

Re: OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

hi,

I have to agree with Bill. Bill you must have been in WV to make those

observations. -I have heard many times about using a tractor to pull a

calf, and many folks around here are using antibiotics as soon as the

animal looks crosseyed!-And I'm talking 20- cc for a goat for example.

-It's very difficult to educated people ( I have tried and been labeled

a know-it -all) when farmers have done these things for ions and the"

remedy" worked.-HOw about this one-cutting horns off with a chainsaw:-((

Elke

Will Winter wrote:

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the

advice

from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down

to

earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective.

Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet

Farm

or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic

waste

dump out there, folks.

After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large

animal vet in

the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer

medicine

to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic

certification" or any other

standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple

ruins it

for the rest of us.

Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and

log

chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an

elastrator

band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly

poured on

wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly

repellant, and if

the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've

rarely

been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere

that's

chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer

cow.

You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't

imagine a

farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or

doing it

"the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each

experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten

instantly

and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet

does it!).

In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an

enormous

amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and

teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift,

ill-informed

and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers).

It's just

the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name.

OK, I'll be nice now,

Will Winter

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

..

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I have my friend's son disbud my calves. He's been doing goats and calves for years. It's no big thing. It's done in minutes and they don't even cry. He puts the stuff on it that heals it and keeps flies away and there's no blood, etc. And, we don't have to sedate them or anything.

K.C.

Re: OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

hi,I have to agree with Bill. Bill you must have been in WV to make those observations. -I have heard many times about using a tractor to pull a calf, and many folks around here are using antibiotics as soon as the animal looks crosseyed!-And I'm talking 20- cc for a goat for example. -It's very difficult to educated people ( I have tried and been labeled a know-it -all) when farmers have done these things for ions and the" remedy" worked.-HOw about this one-cutting horns off with a chainsaw:-((ElkeWill Winter wrote:

Well, I wish I could say I had K.C.s blind faith in the goodness of the advice from "the neighbor down the road" and the notion that the average "down to earth" farmer home remedy would be kind, non-toxic or even effective. Especially given what can be purchased from the farmer's coop, Fleet Farm or any livestock catalog you want to open up. These days it's a toxic waste dump out there, folks. After growing up with farmers all my life and after being a large animal vet in the countryside I guess you could say I've seen enough bad farmer medicine to rattle your faith forever in the integrity of "organic certification" or any other standard that relies on "word of mouth" by the farmer. One bad apple ruins it for the rest of us. Farmers I've know are wont to pull dystocia calves with a tractor and log chain, many the time I've seen baling twine (or worse) used as an elastrator band and I've seen everything from gasoline to sulfuric acid cruelly poured on wounds. It's common to see used crankcase oil applied for fly repellant, and if the label says 10cc's I've rarely seen a farmer that won't use 20. I've rarely been to a barn that doesn't have a cabinet in the corner somewhere that's chuck full of scary poisons and potions to throw onto or into a downer cow. You might say there ain't nothin' I haven't seen done or that I can't imagine a farmer doing to his or her livestock in the name of saving a nickle or doing it "the way dad used to do it". No experiment has a control group and each experimental group is made up of one animal. Failures are forgotten instantly and successes are remembered forever (just the opposite of when the vet does it!). In defense of my profession, I will say some of us have spent an enormous amount of (totally unpaid and totally unappreciated) time preaching and teaching against some of the cockamamie notions of makeshift, ill-informed and toxic applications of poisons and chemicals (especially wormers). It's just the other 98% of my profession that give the rest of us a bad name. OK, I'll be nice now,Will Winter PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/. PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Well, I watch the animal cops programs and they are out there all the time, not only for neglect, but for abuse of livestock. Here in Idaho they took a bunch of horses and cattle because the people were abusing them. Not just not feeding them properly, but because the way they had them living. So, I think if it's made an issue, and people would go public, something can be done. It's all in what lengths people want to go to in order to protect the animals.

K.C.

Re: OUT BEHIND THE BARN (where I come from)

Animal abuse laws generally don't apply to livestock, only to pet type animals. All that is generally required for livestock is food, water, and some sort of shelter. A woman I work with started the humane society in our county and has some really heartwrenching stories, including a horse who had electric wire in his stall so he could barely move without being shocked, and there was nothing she could do because he was provided with food and water. WeldonA Bit of Earth FarmLitchfield, Ohio> Don't you have animal abuse laws there? I would thing that cutting the horns that way would be considered cruel and inhumane.> > K.C.PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/