Re: Cycling - Gym workouts?

[Guest guest]

My semi-pro buddy gets on his trainer in his house. Do you have a trainer?

Lori s

Frederick, land

SAS Programmer and mother of 2

- Cycling - Gym workouts?

Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for winter gym workouts?

Exercises/reps/days per week?

Thanks,

Farmer

Fogelsville, PA

[Guest guest]

We have some cyclists here at Bodytribe on a program during

their 'off' season that isn't much different than any strength

athlete. Although they still spend a bit of time of the bikes in

the morning, in the afternoon, they play with the iron (or giant

tires or sandbags or whatever else is lying around here).

We attack strength in its full spectrum, from maximum force

development to lower levels of force development over periods of

time, and we do this often within one workout. We've found that

maximum force development plays a big role in helping endurance

sports, despite heavy lifting getting a bad rep fro so long.

Box squats, deadlifts, hand cleans, etc., ya know,, the 'big' lifts,

play a crucial role and, since so much of the 'sports specific'

training is being done on the bike, we consider this simply as

learning to generate large amounts of force.

After starting a workout with the max force lifting, we move onto a

more moderate rep and set scheme, similar to what folks see in

normal gyms. The 6-10 (roughly) scheme traditionally used by your

average weight trainer. But we don't stay here long (maybe one

exercise).

Then it's time to go into the realm of lactate threshold training,

although we like to simply call it the standard GPP. This includes

combining exercises, and manipulating all types of variables. Not

just sets and reps, but distance, time, speed, etc. This could be

utilizing a heavy sled, some farmer's walk handles or a mound of

sandbags and combining them in weird ways, often for extended

periods of time. This the artful part of the training, coming up

with fun combinations of exercises and variables to keep the body

working hard, increasing the overall work capacity while also

increasing the abilites of chains of muscles.

For more info, visit my website or email me. So far my riders have

done really well in trial races the past couple of weekends. We'll

back off a little and change the workload as the season gets closer.

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

>

> Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for winter gym workouts?

>

> Exercises/reps/days per week?

>

> Thanks,

> Farmer

> Fogelsville, PA

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for winter gym workouts?

>

> Exercises/reps/days per week?

*****

Below are extracts (t-mag) from an article written by Dr Berardi

concerning the training approach of Dr Jeff Spencer (Dr Spencer

served as chiropractor and weight training advisor to Lance Armstrong

and the US Postal Team):

• A road cyclist really needs the transfer of functional power to

bicycle performance. Since there is only so much time for recovery,

weight training is minimal but important to correct inherent

imbalances. Due to recovery concerns, Jeff recommends that a cyclist

perform no squats.

• Weight training for cyclists should be periodized into recovery,

transition, building, and maintenance phases.

• Recovery is for decompression/elongation and core work. It is done

at 1 set/exercise of 20 reps. Transition is for heavier lifting loads

and for adding in some bike work and is done at 2 sets/exercise of 12-

14 reps per set. Strength building is for increasing muscle strength

and plyometric power and is done at 2 sets/exercise of 4-6 reps on

weight days and 20 reps for plyometric days. Maintenance is for

keeping form through the 1st race of the year and is done at 1

set/exercise of 10 reps.

• Weight training rules:

— 2x per week with 3 days between each session

— Heavy lifts followed by decompression work

— Core stability is the " glue "

— There can be NO upper-body hypertrophy!

— You must ride the bike during a weight-training session

• This last rule is particularly interesting as Jeff recommends

circuit style training. Here's a weight program that Jeff recommends

for all phases. Only the reps and sets vary as described above.

— Leg Press

— Deadlifts

— Bent-Over Row

— Chin-Ups

— Calf Raises

Interestingly, this workout would be done in circuit type fashion and

after the calf raises, the athlete would jump on the bike and ride 5

minutes hard (85% of max) and then 10 minutes easy (60% of max). Jeff

believes that this helps with functional transfer of strength in the

gym to the bike.

My favorite quote of the talk was " The body hasn't read the

textbooks. " It was given in response to someone's academic

questioning of one of Jeff's techniques. Good for you, Jeff.

Sometimes things work without a good reason why. Even so, overall,

Jeff's ideas are rock solid. But even if I didn't think so, they

might be worth a try. After all, if it's good enough for Lance…

==================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Farmer wrote:

> Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for winter gym workouts?

Hi, . This is the best place for info on strength training for

strength athletes, but as a person who has been a member of this

forum since its second day, it's been my experience that this isn't a

great place for advice on strength training for endurance athletes.

(Although IMO, the material posted by Carruthers in response to

your query presented a sensible philosophy for using strength

training to support cycling fitness.)

For advice from accomplished cyclists who know about exercise

physiology, go to the wattage forum, join it, and search the archives

or post your question there:

http://groups.google.com/group/wattage?lnk=srg

Best of luck to you this season.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

Thanks Chip. Looks like you have some very interesting concepts.

Thanks,

Farmer

Fogelsville, PA

> >

> > Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for winter gym

workouts?

> >

> > Exercises/reps/days per week?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Farmer

> > Fogelsville, PA

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Track trainers might disagree somewhat with Dr. Jeff.

Good info for road cyclists.

Thank you,

Fogelsville, PA

> >

> > Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for winter gym

workouts?

> >

> > Exercises/reps/days per week?

>

> *****

> Below are extracts (t-mag) from an article written by Dr

Berardi

> concerning the training approach of Dr Jeff Spencer (Dr Spencer

> served as chiropractor and weight training advisor to Lance

Armstrong

> and the US Postal Team):

>

> • A road cyclist really needs the transfer of functional power to

> bicycle performance. Since there is only so much time for recovery,

> weight training is minimal but important to correct inherent

> imbalances. Due to recovery concerns, Jeff recommends that a cyclist

> perform no squats.

>

> • Weight training for cyclists should be periodized into recovery,

> transition, building, and maintenance phases.

>

> • Recovery is for decompression/elongation and core work. It is done

> at 1 set/exercise of 20 reps. Transition is for heavier lifting

loads

> and for adding in some bike work and is done at 2 sets/exercise of

12-

> 14 reps per set. Strength building is for increasing muscle strength

> and plyometric power and is done at 2 sets/exercise of 4-6 reps on

> weight days and 20 reps for plyometric days. Maintenance is for

> keeping form through the 1st race of the year and is done at 1

> set/exercise of 10 reps.

>

> • Weight training rules:

> — 2x per week with 3 days between each session

> — Heavy lifts followed by decompression work

> — Core stability is the " glue "

> — There can be NO upper-body hypertrophy!

> — You must ride the bike during a weight-training session

> • This last rule is particularly interesting as Jeff recommends

> circuit style training. Here's a weight program that Jeff recommends

> for all phases. Only the reps and sets vary as described above.

>

> — Leg Press

> — Deadlifts

> — Bent-Over Row

> — Chin-Ups

> — Calf Raises

>

> Interestingly, this workout would be done in circuit type fashion

and

> after the calf raises, the athlete would jump on the bike and ride 5

> minutes hard (85% of max) and then 10 minutes easy (60% of max).

Jeff

> believes that this helps with functional transfer of strength in the

> gym to the bike.

>

> My favorite quote of the talk was " The body hasn't read the

> textbooks. " It was given in response to someone's academic

> questioning of one of Jeff's techniques. Good for you, Jeff.

> Sometimes things work without a good reason why. Even so, overall,

> Jeff's ideas are rock solid. But even if I didn't think so, they

> might be worth a try. After all, if it's good enough for Lance…

>

> ==================

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Track trainers might disagree somewhat with Dr. Jeff.

>

> Good info for road cyclists.

> Thank you,

***

Repost: Below is the weight training program for French track cycling

who were one of the most successful teams in the 90s. One of my

friends forwarded the program; he informed me that Pierrejean

originally posted it on Charlie Francis' forum.

<<<<3 weights workouts a week, separated by 48 hours.

First 2 workouts are identical the difference is that 2nd is with

5kilos heavier weights, 3rd is lighter and with less exercises.

Only 6 exercises are involved, always in this order:

1- Abdominal work (no weights of course)

2- Deep squats

3- " deadlift " keeping leg and arm straights and lift the bar with

curve spine and stand up progressively ***Similar to Steve Javorek's

Special good morning???

4- bench press

5- Rowing (lift the bar from the quadriceps to the chin)

6- Ischios curls

Abdominal exercises are done with 3 sets of 10 while all other

exercises are done with 5 sets of 5 reps, this all the season. In the

last part of the season, squats are done with 5 sets of 3 reps when

load is at 80% of 3RM, and again reduced to only 3 reps, and bench

press with 5 sets of 3 reps.

Each week, 10kg until about 2 weeks the key competition, where a

maximum tests are performed with 3reps for Squat and 5 sets of 3 reps

for Bench Press.

The workouts are based on a progressive increasing of loads, and

twice a year with pyramids in order to be introduced to a quality

cycle after which loads will be reduced.

So the periodisation can be described like this:

- Basic cycle (autumn to mid December): 10kg increase each week, 5x5

reps scheme

- Transition (1 workout) : pyramid work, increase 10kg

- Quality cycle (mid to and of December): increase 10kg each week

until 65% of estimated 3RM planned for summer, 5x5 reps

- Basic cycle (January to end of March): start with 50% of planned

3RM and add 10kg each week, 5x5 reps

- Transition (1 workout) : pyramid work, increase 10kg

- Quality cycle (2 weeks) : increase 10kg each week until 90% of

planned 3RM, switch to 5x3 reps

- Basic cycle (from April, 5 weeks) : increase 10kg as usual each

week, back to 5x5 reps

- Quality cycle (until 2-3weeks before goal competition) : 3 reps

scheme for squats up to 3RM test of the year, use 5x3 reps scheme for

Bench Press.>>>>>>>

============

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Your welcome. This is a loose template, and by no means definitive.

According to another post folks on this site apparently are not

able to give good advice to endurance athletes (I've competed in

both cross country skiing and mountain biking, as well as

powerlifting), but we've had success with using techniques not often

utilized by endurance athletes.

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

> > >

> > > Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for winter gym

> workouts?

> > >

> > > Exercises/reps/days per week?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Farmer

> > > Fogelsville, PA

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I would like to tell a " horror " story related to this topic.

Last week while in the gym I noticed a young girl, about 15, doing a pseudo

squat. She weighed, maybe, 50kg. and she had 40kg. on her shoulders. She was

doing a quarter squat. Actually, more like a fifth squat. Or maybe a sixth. Also

this girl was looking in the side mirror and as a result, twisting her back. I

usually don't volunteer unsolicited help in the gym but I couldn't resist this

time. I actually showed her a real squat and explained her dangerous errors. She

then told me that she is part of a biking club and that she was strength

training on the off season as prescribed by her coach. She didn't have the

flexibility or ability to do a real squat but this young cyclist said her coach

told her to immitate a pedaling movement and that was what she was doing! I

asked her if her back hurt and she said yes but she was " tuffing it out " . After

explaining the dangers of what she was doing, she thanked me politely for my

time, explained to me that she was not a lifter like myself and continued to the

next station as prescribed by her coach.

And that's why I don't like to volunteer unsolicited help in the gym.

Yehoshua Zohar

Karmiel, Israel

[Guest guest]

--- s wrote:

> Farmer wrote:

>

> > Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for

> winter gym workouts?

>

> Hi, . This is the best place for info on

> strength training for

> strength athletes, but as a person who has been a

> member of this

> forum since its second day, it's been my experience

> that this isn't a

> great place for advice on strength training for

> endurance athletes.

> (Although IMO, the material posted by

> Carruthers in response to

> your query presented a sensible philosophy for using

> strength

> training to support cycling fitness.)

>

> For advice from accomplished cyclists who know about

> exercise

> physiology, go to the wattage forum, join it, and

> search the archives

> or post your question there:

>

> http://groups.google.com/group/wattage?lnk=srg

>

> Best of luck to you this season.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

>

The following article may be of interest concerning

endurance training.

Ralph Giarnella MD

southington Ct. USA

***************************************************************

MAKING THE MOST OF MUSCLE

There’s more to muscle than fast-twitch and

slow-twitch

By Dario Fredrick

[Velo News, Vol. 33/No. 19, December 20, 2004]

Most cyclists will tell you they’ve heard of slow- and

fast-twitch muscle fibers, and some

may take the labels somewhat literally, thinking of a

pure sprinter as fast-twitch and an

ultra-endurance cyclist as slow-twitch. To some degree

this is true, but it’s also an

oversimplification.

Understanding the differences among muscle-fiber types

can give us some insight as to

why two talented riders of similar body weight, like

Jan Ullrich and Alessandro Petacchi,

can have such different natural abilities, or explain

how Lance Armstrong bloomed from

a one-day classics rider to a six-time Tour de France

champion. It can also show how

adopting a higher pedaling cadence can improve

performance for some cyclists. Cycling

intensities are not only a function of proportions of

aerobic and non-aerobic energy

delivery, but of specific muscle-fiber-type

recruitment.

MUSCLE FIBER TYPES

Within the slow- and fast-twitch categories,

scientists have identified three main fiber

types in human muscle: Type I, Type IIa and Type IIb.

Type I is slow-twitch fiber, while

fast-twitch fiber is subdivided into Type IIa and Type

IIb (Table 1).

• Type I — Type I fibers are called slow-twitch

because their Vmax (maximal shortening

velocity or speed of contraction) is slower than

fast-twitch fibers. Also referred to as

“slow-oxidative” fibers, Type I fibers have a high

aerobic capacity. Aerobic metabolism

is a more efficient energy pathway than non-aerobic

metabolism, providing much more

energy per unit of fuel and allowing the use of

multiple types of fuel (glucose, fats,

lactate). As a result, Type I fibers are more

efficient than Type IIa and IIb. Type I fibers

do not produce forces as great nor as quickly as the

fast-twitch types, but they are very

fatigue-resistant.

[Guest guest]

--- s wrote:

> Farmer wrote:

>

> > Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for

> winter gym workouts?

>

> Hi, . This is the best place for info on

> strength training for

> strength athletes, but as a person who has been a

> member of this

> forum since its second day, it's been my experience

> that this isn't a

> great place for advice on strength training for

> endurance athletes.

> (Although IMO, the material posted by

> Carruthers in response to

> your query presented a sensible philosophy for using

> strength

> training to support cycling fitness.)

>

> For advice from accomplished cyclists who know about

> exercise

> physiology, go to the wattage forum, join it, and

> search the archives

> or post your question there:

>

> http://groups.google.com/group/wattage?lnk=srg

>

> Best of luck to you this season.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

The following is the complete article I tried to post

yesterday but somehow I only sent part of the article.

It may shed light on training for endurance sports

such as cycling

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct. SA

*******************************************************

MAKING THE MOST OF MUSCLE

There’s more to muscle than fast-twitch and

slow-twitch

By Dario Fredrick

[Velo News, Vol. 33/No. 19, December 20, 2004]

Most cyclists will tell you they’ve heard of slow- and

fast-twitch muscle fibers, and some

may take the labels somewhat literally, thinking of a

pure sprinter as fast-twitch and an

ultra-endurance cyclist as slow-twitch. To some degree

this is true, but it’s also an

oversimplification.

Understanding the differences among muscle-fiber types

can give us some insight as to

why two talented riders of similar body weight, like

Jan Ullrich and Alessandro Petacchi,

can have such different natural abilities, or explain

how Lance Armstrong bloomed from

a one-day classics rider to a six-time Tour de France

champion. It can also show how

adopting a higher pedaling cadence can improve

performance for some cyclists. Cycling

intensities are not only a function of proportions of

aerobic and non-aerobic energy

delivery, but of specific muscle-fiber-type

recruitment.

MUSCLE FIBER TYPES

Within the slow- and fast-twitch categories,

scientists have identified three main fiber

types in human muscle: Type I, Type IIa and Type IIb.

Type I is slow-twitch fiber, while

fast-twitch fiber is subdivided into Type IIa and Type

IIb (Table 1).

• Type I — Type I fibers are called slow-twitch

because their Vmax (maximal shortening

velocity or speed of contraction) is slower than

fast-twitch fibers. Also referred to as

“slow-oxidative” fibers, Type I fibers have a high

aerobic capacity. Aerobic metabolism

is a more efficient energy pathway than non-aerobic

metabolism, providing much more

energy per unit of fuel and allowing the use of

multiple types of fuel (glucose, fats,

lactate). As a result, Type I fibers are more

efficient than Type IIa and IIb. Type I fibers

do not produce forces as great nor as quickly as the

fast-twitch types, but they are very

fatigue-resistant.

© 2004 Whole AthleteTM

www.wholeathlete.com

• Type IIb — Fast-twitch muscle fibers have the

highest Vmax and produce the greatest

force, but also suffer the highest rate of fatigue.

Type IIb fibers are called “fast-

glycolytic” because they rely primarily on glycolysis

(anaerobic metabolism) for fuel.

They have a large anaerobic capacity but little

potential for aerobic fueling. Their main

fuel source is glycogen, and since glycolysis is a

fast energy-delivery pathway, they can

burn through glycogen stores quickly. Glycogen can not

be replenished during exercise,

and its depletion results in fatigue.

• Type IIa — The Type IIa fibers are the intermediate

fast-twitch fibers. These “fast-

oxidative glycolytic” fibers can be thought of as a

cross between Type I and Type IIb

fibers as they have the capacity for both aerobic and

anaerobic metabolism. Type IIa

fibers produce more force and have a higher Vmax than

Type I, but less than Type IIb

fibers. They have a low to moderate rate of fatigue

depending on the energy pathway and

fuels they rely upon. Perhaps most important to

endurance cyclists, Type IIa fibers can be

trained to improve their aerobic capacity and rely

upon it more while increasing

efficiency and reducing their rate of fatigue.

Table 1 - General characteristics of muscle fiber

types

Slow-twitch fibers Fast-twitch fibers

Characteristic Type I Type IIa Type IIb

Main energy pathway Aerobic Aerobic or

Anaerobic Anaerobic

Maximal force Moderate High Highest

Efficiency Highest Moderate Low

Fatigue resistance High Moderate Low

Primary fuels used Glucose, fats,

lactate Glucose, lactate, glycogen Glycogen

FIBER RECRUITMENT

As force increases from light to maximum (see Figure

1) the recruitment of fiber types

expands from Type I to include Type IIa, then Type IIb

fibers. Aerobically fueled Type I

fibers contribute significantly to all power outputs,

even in an all-out sprint. Thus, there is

a large aerobic component to all cycling workloads

even beyond one’s performance

threshold. Furthermore, since Type IIa fibers can

produce a high level of force,

maximizing aerobic capacity can improve endurance not

only for low to moderate

workloads, but for high sustainable power outputs as

well.

OPTIMIZING TRAINING WITH FIBER TYPES

With a greater understanding of fiber types we can see

the importance of maximizing

aerobic capacity for endurance-cycling performance.

Endurance training of

approximately 70-85 percent of maximal steady state

heart rate (MSS = 30-minute

performance threshold) can improve the aerobic

capacity of Type I fibers, while training

at 85-93 percent of MSS can improve the aerobic

capacity of Type IIa fibers. At 90-93

percent of MSS, not only do the Type IIa fibers

increase their aerobic qualities, some

Type IIb fibers convert to Type IIa. Also, if training

intensity is always kept below 85

percent of MSS, Type IIa fibers can convert to Type I.

Thus, for competitive cyclists, it is important to

train accelerations or sprints to maintain

the peak anaerobic capacity of Type IIb fibers for

quick, high power demands, and also to

maintain the high aerobic capacity of Type IIa fibers

for moderate to maximum

sustainable power.

While a natural predominance of one muscle-fiber type

over another may be genetically

determined, training can affect the qualities of

muscle-fiber types. For example, ace

sprinter Petacchi is gifted with plenty of Type IIb

fibers, and he probably avoids training

at intensities that convert Type IIb fibers to Type

IIa to maintain his maximal power.

Both his genetic gifts and his training may explain

why he can’t climb or time trial with

Ullrich despite their similar size (although Petacchi

would likely beat him in a sprint).

Armstrong, on the other hand, has trained his aerobic

capacity (Type I and Type IIa fibers

specifically) to the highest degree, perhaps forgoing

his ability to dominate single-day

classics and sprint finishes in the same manner as he

dominates climbing and time trial

stages in the Tour.

CADENCE AND BIOMECHANICS

How hard and fast you pedal determines which

muscle-fiber types are recruited. For

example, if you ride a relatively low cadence for

moderate to hard efforts (i.e., under 70

rpm climbing and under 90 rpm on flat terrain),

increasing your cadence by 5-15 rpm

may improve efficiency and endurance while reducing

fatigue.

These improvements result from a greater contribution

of aerobically fueled fibers (Type

I and IIa) and less reliance on Type IIb fibers

because force for a given power output is

reduced. Since power is the product of angular force

(torque) and cadence, increasing

cadence while maintaining power would result in a

reduced force requirement.

Armstrong is an extreme example of this. He has

significantly increased his cadence from

his pre-cancer days, reducing the force component for

his sustainable power. However, there is a point at

which cadence increases beyond the capacity to apply

force efficiently

throughout the pedal stroke.

Similarly, optimizing biomechanics can improve

endurance and reduce the rate of

fatigue. For a given pedal stroke, applying force more

evenly around the whole of the

pedal revolution can reduce peak force for each pedal

stroke. Reducing peak force puts

less dependence on the highest-force fibers. Relying

less on Type IIb fibers whenever

possible is favorable to cycling performance,

particularly when critical times in a race

require large power outputs, specifically Type IIb

recruitment. If glycogen stores are

prematurely depleted and Type IIb fibers are fatigued,

one’s peak and maximum

sustainable power will be significantly limited.

SUMMING IT UP

While we may each have a genetic predisposition to

either slow- or fast-twitch muscle

fiber, we can train specifically to maximize a

particular aspect of cycling performance.

How hard you pedal, how fast you pedal and how you

apply force around the pedal

stroke all can affect performance by determining which

fiber type gets recruited.

Maximize your aerobic capacity and biomechanical

efficiency and you will not only be

flexing your muscles when pedaling, you’ll be flexing

the right type.

Dario Fredrick, M.A. is an exercise physiologist,

founder and head coach for Whole

AthleteTM. He can be reached via www.wholeathlete.com.

[Guest guest]

In Mel Siff's Supertraining There's a good section near the

beginning about twitch fibers, hybrid fibers and the central nervous

system, through training, being able to change the job of a fiber if

need be. Some of the research that is following these ideas is

starting to make fiber typing, if not moot at least less of an exact

science than so often quoted.

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

> >

> > > Was just wondering what cyclists are doing for

> > winter gym workouts?

> >

> > Hi, . This is the best place for info on

> > strength training for

> > strength athletes, but as a person who has been a

> > member of this

> > forum since its second day, it's been my experience

> > that this isn't a

> > great place for advice on strength training for

> > endurance athletes.

> > (Although IMO, the material posted by

> > Carruthers in response to

> > your query presented a sensible philosophy for using

> > strength

> > training to support cycling fitness.)

> >

> > For advice from accomplished cyclists who know about

> > exercise

> > physiology, go to the wattage forum, join it, and

> > search the archives

> > or post your question there:

> >

> > http://groups.google.com/group/wattage?lnk=srg

> >

> > Best of luck to you this season.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > s

> > Ardmore, PA

> >

> The following article may be of interest concerning

> endurance training.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> southington Ct. USA

>

> ***************************************************************

> MAKING THE MOST OF MUSCLE

> There's more to muscle than fast-twitch and

> slow-twitch

> By Dario Fredrick

> [Velo News, Vol. 33/No. 19, December 20, 2004]

>

> Most cyclists will tell you they've heard of slow- and

> fast-twitch muscle fibers, and some

> may take the labels somewhat literally, thinking of a

> pure sprinter as fast-twitch and an

> ultra-endurance cyclist as slow-twitch. To some degree

> this is true, but it's also an

> oversimplification.

>

> Understanding the differences among muscle-fiber types

> can give us some insight as to

> why two talented riders of similar body weight, like

> Jan Ullrich and Alessandro Petacchi,

> can have such different natural abilities, or explain

> how Lance Armstrong bloomed from

> a one-day classics rider to a six-time Tour de France

> champion. It can also show how

> adopting a higher pedaling cadence can improve

> performance for some cyclists. Cycling

> intensities are not only a function of proportions of

> aerobic and non-aerobic energy

> delivery, but of specific muscle-fiber-type

> recruitment.

>

> MUSCLE FIBER TYPES

> Within the slow- and fast-twitch categories,

> scientists have identified three main fiber

> types in human muscle: Type I, Type IIa and Type IIb.

> Type I is slow-twitch fiber, while

> fast-twitch fiber is subdivided into Type IIa and Type

> IIb (Table 1).

>

> • Type I — Type I fibers are called slow-twitch

> because their Vmax (maximal shortening

> velocity or speed of contraction) is slower than

> fast-twitch fibers. Also referred to as

> " slow-oxidative " fibers, Type I fibers have a high

> aerobic capacity. Aerobic metabolism

> is a more efficient energy pathway than non-aerobic

> metabolism, providing much more

> energy per unit of fuel and allowing the use of

> multiple types of fuel (glucose, fats,

> lactate). As a result, Type I fibers are more

> efficient than Type IIa and IIb. Type I fibers

> do not produce forces as great nor as quickly as the

> fast-twitch types, but they are very

> fatigue-resistant.

>

[Guest guest]

Chip Conrad wrote:

> [snip] but we've had success with using techniques not often

> utilized by endurance athletes.

Chip, please be more specific: who is " we " and how are you (Chip

Conrad) defining " success " ? If your definition includes a measurable

improvement in performance, please explain how you can prove it was due

to your " techniques " rather than in spite of them.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

Chip Conrad wrote:

> [snip] (I've competed in

> both cross country skiing and mountain biking, as well as

> powerlifting)

Chip, please describe the sanctioned MTB events (including class) in

which you competed; the number of years you competed; the manner you

trained for them; any changes in training over that period; any

measurable improvements in performance over that period; and explain

how you're able to prove that strength training was responsible for

some or all of that improvement.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

--- Yehoshua Zohar wrote:

> I would like to tell a " horror " story related to

> this topic.

>

> Last week while in the gym I noticed a young girl,

> about 15, doing a pseudo squat. She weighed, maybe,

> 50kg. and she had 40kg. on her shoulders. She was

> doing a quarter squat. Actually, more like a fifth

> squat. Or maybe a sixth. Also this girl was looking

> in the side mirror and as a result, twisting her

> back. I usually don't volunteer unsolicited help in

> the gym but I couldn't resist this time. I actually

> showed her a real squat and explained her dangerous

> errors. She then told me that she is part of a

> biking club and that she was strength training on

> the off season as prescribed by her coach. She

> didn't have the flexibility or ability to do a real

> squat but this young cyclist said her coach told her

> to immitate a pedaling movement and that was what

> she was doing! I asked her if her back hurt and she

> said yes but she was " tuffing it out " . After

> explaining the dangers of what she was doing, she

> thanked me politely for my time, explained to me

> that she was not a lifter like myself and continued

> to the next station as prescribed by her coach.

> And that's why I don't like to volunteer

> unsolicited help in the gym.

>

> Yehoshua Zohar

> Karmiel, Israel

For the last several days the above post kept coming

back to me and each time I would shake my head in

disbelief that in this day and age with all the

access to sports science there are still individuals

(such as the coach of this young cyclist( who take on

the task of coaching youngsters without the basic

rudimentary knowledge of the sport they are coaching.

There is nothing wrong with a 15 year old lifting

weights. Most 15 year olds (especially female) are

nearing full maturity and there is no danger , real or

imagined, with weight lifting unless the individual is

not properly instructed.

However, in my opinion, there is absolutely no role

for using weights, especially squatting, for a young

cyclist male or female.

The coach of this young lady apparently has no concept

of pedaling in circles. The act of pedaling a bike is

not an up and down motion but a circling motion where

the angle of forces are being constantly changed

throughout the full 360 degrees and these changes are

occurring at a rate of 90 times a minute.

The most important thing that young cyclists need to

learn is to pedal efficiently and apply the forces

throughout the full cycle- This is not an easy skill

to learn and takes many years of practice to perfect.

I spent many years coaching junior cyclists and the

first and most important skill was trying to teach

them proper pedaling technique.

I recently posted a weight lifting program used by

Lance Armstrong from the training book by Chris

Carmichael. The emphasis was on light weights for

general fitness early in the off season, and as a

change of pace from months of sitting on a bike.

This time of the year (February) any serious cyclist

should be in the preparatory phase for the upcoming

racing season. The weights should have been put away

weeks ago and all training should be on a bike,

outdoors if the weather permits or indoors (wind

trainer).

With proper, on the bike training, any cyclistm can

get all the resistance training they will ever need.

Just find a nice long hill to climb and climb it 10-15

times.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington, CT

[Guest guest]

Why? This seems like an assertive request in defiance of my

anecdotal evidence. Well, here's two personal examples, by no means

conclusive, but enough for me:

When I competed (1992/93 was the last period of 'sanctioned'

competition, amatuer local events here in Northern California and

also the last period of my cross country competition) I kept time

records of competition and non-competition rides.

During the early 2000's I didn't ride much for about 4 years.

A couple years ago I did some old routes that I kept records on. I

destroyed my old times.

The same happened with cross country skiing. Spent almost 4 years

not skiing at all. Went back last year and skied better than I EVER

have.

Do I need peer reviewed research to show that the weightroom can be

a big benefit to endurance events? No. Do you?

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

>

> > [snip] (I've competed in

> > both cross country skiing and mountain biking, as well as

> > powerlifting)

>

> Chip, please describe the sanctioned MTB events (including class)

in

> which you competed; the number of years you competed; the manner

you

> trained for them; any changes in training over that period; any

> measurable improvements in performance over that period; and

explain

> how you're able to prove that strength training was responsible

for

> some or all of that improvement.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

>

[Guest guest]

You are defensive about my approach, aren't you? Let's define your

meaning of proof. As all my clients keep records of what we do here

pretty thoroughly, we have any number of indicators of gym

progress. In other words, if a client squats 100 pounds, then, a

month later, squats 140 pounds, that is 'proof' that their

performance in the squat is improving.

For those who are involved in competition, be it endurance or

strength, greater numbers are greater numbers. In Spite of what we

do? That would be silly if all of the in-gym indicators show

progress, wouldn't it?

Our population of pro or semi-pro comeptitors is small compared to

many more amatuer competitors and a bunch of folks who have started

competiting in some way or another after being relatively non-

athletic most of their lives. So is this pure science? No, of course

not. But pure science rarely sees the forest for the trees, and

I've never met anyone who made progress their entire lives based on

a 'scientific' program that never altered or needed variation and

creative license.

Back to my athletes. Our enduracne athletes are runners and

cyclists, for the most part (I'll post one of their stats and info,

if he'll let me and if anyone is really that interested in following

along with his races and progress over the upcoming season). They

are all doing better than they did. Proof? Their finishing times,

plain and simple. No injuries (except for the ocassional bike

crash, hey, it happens) and, through all the indicators they have in

the gym, stronger bodies.

Ya want I should call up Sac State and have them do tests on them

versus a controlled group and, after 8 weeks get back to you on

the 'test' results?

We take great pride here in increasing the ability of the body to DO

more, be it competition or simply having more fun in life. One of

our specialties is off season training and making a balanced,

complete package of an athlete instead of a one trick pony. The

other specialty is being able to create an athlete out of anyone.

In the thousands of people I worked with, there is one glaring

lesson I've learned. There are too many 'specialized' athletes who

want to excel in one sport at the expense of other possibilities,

experiences and abilities. I've seen powerlifters fall apart after

years of all the sagital training they do without taking into

consideration their joint mobility, rotational training or even

overhead movements. Sure they can generate a hell of a lot of

force, but only in their limited arena of movement.

The opposite are endurance athletes who, sans external resistance,

can do one or two movements for great periods of time, but have no

clue as to haw to create maximum force generation.

Guess what? Both ends of the spectrum can greatly help each other,

not just for their given sport, but for the REST OF THEIR LIVES.

How do you prove this? Try it. Research is starting to become

redundant, simply because the researchers aren't usually athletes,

and they don't know all the possibilities of training.

Unfortunately, this trickles down to the people who rely on them

(and often only them) for information and insight. There's and art

that needs to spend more time with that science. If we look through

history, a great deal of our greatest athletes (and coaches)

sometimes eschewed anything that looked like conventional training.

From strength athletes ( , Arthur Saxon and Vasili

eyev ane Louie immediately come to mind) to endurance or

track athletes (I'm sure folks smarter tha me can name more than I

could), the list of folks who created new ideas and training

modalities is endless.

I'm not among them, nor will I ever make that claim. I just simply

don't appreciate what I see as limits being set by trainers and

coaches today. I offer some options, and by no way revolutionary,

or even original ones. But they are good options, ones that work

well for what we do here. Who are we? I do consider my clients, my

trainers and my members all part of this tribe, embracing a

philosophy of movement that is a bit unconventional, but ultimately

fun. What is success? Being better than you were. How do you

define it?

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalculture.com

>

> > [snip] but we've had success with using techniques not often

> > utilized by endurance athletes.

>

> Chip, please be more specific: who is " we " and how are you (Chip

> Conrad) defining " success " ? If your definition includes a

measurable

> improvement in performance, please explain how you can prove it

was due

> to your " techniques " rather than in spite of them.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

>

[Guest guest]

On an off-training note, the Tour of California is going to be

blasting within 2 blocks from my gym tomorrow for the final leg of

the second stage (I think it's the second). Several us around here

are going to play hooky from whatever we're doing , grab some lawn

chairs (it's a surprising 68 degrees, warm for this time of year)

and have a good view of the race.

Back to training stuff. Even in this stage of the game, depending on

the condition or ability of the cyclist, might the iron still play a

role in aspects of their training? Spine work, balance work

(not 'bosu ball' balance but chain of motion, maybe even postural

positioning and conditioning? I know traditional training may

say 'get thee in the saddle, exclusively' but might this not always

be the ultimate plan? I know many folks might still, maybe even

unconsciously, holds onto a stigma about weight training, especially

endurance athletes, who might, somewhere deep inside, think weights

= slow (or any number of negative adjectives), but as the

conditioning world comes around to weight training as not just for

bodybuilders and powerlifters anymore, maybe the current research

hasn't explored all the possibilities yet?

I guess my question is, is it always time to completely abandon the

iron for pre- and during-season training? If so, why?

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

>

> > I would like to tell a " horror " story related to

> > this topic.

> >

> > Last week while in the gym I noticed a young girl,

> > about 15, doing a pseudo squat. She weighed, maybe,

> > 50kg. and she had 40kg. on her shoulders. She was

> > doing a quarter squat. Actually, more like a fifth

> > squat. Or maybe a sixth. Also this girl was looking

> > in the side mirror and as a result, twisting her

> > back. I usually don't volunteer unsolicited help in

> > the gym but I couldn't resist this time. I actually

> > showed her a real squat and explained her dangerous

> > errors. She then told me that she is part of a

> > biking club and that she was strength training on

> > the off season as prescribed by her coach. She

> > didn't have the flexibility or ability to do a real

> > squat but this young cyclist said her coach told her

> > to immitate a pedaling movement and that was what

> > she was doing! I asked her if her back hurt and she

> > said yes but she was " tuffing it out " . After

> > explaining the dangers of what she was doing, she

> > thanked me politely for my time, explained to me

> > that she was not a lifter like myself and continued

> > to the next station as prescribed by her coach.

> > And that's why I don't like to volunteer

> > unsolicited help in the gym.

> >

> > Yehoshua Zohar

> > Karmiel, Israel

>

> For the last several days the above post kept coming

> back to me and each time I would shake my head in

> disbelief that in this day and age with all the

> access to sports science there are still individuals

> (such as the coach of this young cyclist( who take on

> the task of coaching youngsters without the basic

> rudimentary knowledge of the sport they are coaching.

>

> There is nothing wrong with a 15 year old lifting

> weights. Most 15 year olds (especially female) are

> nearing full maturity and there is no danger , real or

> imagined, with weight lifting unless the individual is

> not properly instructed.

>

> However, in my opinion, there is absolutely no role

> for using weights, especially squatting, for a young

> cyclist male or female.

>

> The coach of this young lady apparently has no concept

> of pedaling in circles. The act of pedaling a bike is

> not an up and down motion but a circling motion where

> the angle of forces are being constantly changed

> throughout the full 360 degrees and these changes are

> occurring at a rate of 90 times a minute.

>

> The most important thing that young cyclists need to

> learn is to pedal efficiently and apply the forces

> throughout the full cycle- This is not an easy skill

> to learn and takes many years of practice to perfect.

>

> I spent many years coaching junior cyclists and the

> first and most important skill was trying to teach

> them proper pedaling technique.

>

> I recently posted a weight lifting program used by

> Lance Armstrong from the training book by Chris

> Carmichael. The emphasis was on light weights for

> general fitness early in the off season, and as a

> change of pace from months of sitting on a bike.

>

> This time of the year (February) any serious cyclist

> should be in the preparatory phase for the upcoming

> racing season. The weights should have been put away

> weeks ago and all training should be on a bike,

> outdoors if the weather permits or indoors (wind

> trainer).

>

> With proper, on the bike training, any cyclistm can

> get all the resistance training they will ever need.

> Just find a nice long hill to climb and climb it 10-15

> times.

>

> Ralph Giarnella MD

> Southington, CT

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not defending anyone or anything, but that is a tough request.

Arrived at this conclusion by asking myself how I would answer the

question.

If I had to list every trip to the gym, max lift, training ride,

training cycle, self notation, race result, etc, etc, etc... I would

have a large novel to present.

Of course by doing so I could positively, absolutely prove that for

my indiviual physique, strength training makes a world of difference

in my cycling strength. It's like night and day for me.

:-)

Regards,

Farmer

Fogelsville, PA

>

> > [snip] (I've competed in

> > both cross country skiing and mountain biking, as well as

> > powerlifting)

>

> Chip, please describe the sanctioned MTB events (including class)

in

> which you competed; the number of years you competed; the manner

you

> trained for them; any changes in training over that period; any

> measurable improvements in performance over that period; and

explain

> how you're able to prove that strength training was responsible for

> some or all of that improvement.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

>

[Guest guest]

Chip Conrad wrote:

> You are defensive about my approach, aren't you?

Not a bit. Here at Supertraining, ideas are challenged and tested in

a collegial manner. That's all I've been doing, and all that I'm

about to do now.

> Let's define your

> meaning of proof. As all my clients keep records of what we do

here

> pretty thoroughly, we have any number of indicators of gym

> progress. [snip]

> For those who are involved in competition, be it endurance or

> strength, greater numbers are greater numbers. In Spite of what we

> do? That would be silly if all of the in-gym indicators show

> progress, wouldn't it?

The meaning of this is unclear in light of what you had written

earlier:

> > > we've had success with using techniques not often

> > > utilized by endurance athletes.

I'd assumed that you were speaking about " success " in terms of

improved race results for your clients who race bicycles. If you

were only talking about whether those clients improved their squats,

etc, regardless of whether their race performance improved, then I

have no interest in challenging your assertion. If you were,

however, talking about improved race results, then: (1) your

response here fails to support your assertion; and (2) my question as

to whether performance increased in spite of your " techniques "

remains a valid question that you have failed to answer. Here's why.

A bike racer might improve his or her race results after adding your

strength training, but the improvement might be due to any number of

other causes, such as better on-the-bike training, or less stress at

work or at home. This is why your anecdotal evidence doesn't

reliably support the assertion that your " techniques " were the sole

cause, or even a significant cause, of that improvement. And this is

also why studies that are properly designed and conducted would be

useful for determining what types of strength training might help to

improve endurance performance.

> I've never met anyone who made progress their entire lives based on

> a 'scientific' program that never altered or needed variation and

> creative license.

Me either--which is why I've never suggested such a thing.

> Back to my athletes. [snip] They

> are all doing better than they did. Proof? Their finishing times,

> plain and simple.

As I said before, improvements in race results could be due to any

number of causes other than your strength training. You have no way

of knowing if your strength training was the sole cause of the

improvement or even whether it was one significant cause among many.

In fact, you have no way of knowing whether your cyclists might be

achieving even better results if they stopped using your strength

training advice and made other changes to their training programs.

> In the thousands of people I worked with, there is one glaring

> lesson I've learned. There are too many 'specialized' athletes who

> want to excel in one sport at the expense of other possibilities,

> experiences and abilities.

If you're advocating that people should enjoy a variety of

experiences in life, I have no beef with that. And I've never said

anything to the contrary. But if someone wants to excel at bicycle

racing, then this is really beside the point.

> I've seen powerlifters fall apart after

> years of all the sagital training they do without taking into

> consideration their joint mobility, rotational training or even

> overhead movements. [snip]

> The opposite are endurance athletes who, sans external resistance,

> can do one or two movements for great periods of time, but have no

> clue as to haw to create maximum force generation.

It's unclear what your point is. If you mean to say that " maximum

force generation " is a worthy goal in and of itself, then I have no

interest in challenging that assertion. If you mean to say that

strength training that includes " maximum force generation " can help

an endurance athlete avoid injury while training and competing on the

bike, then we're in agreement.

But if you're saying that " maximum force generation " by itself

directly improves on-the-bike performance, then you need to be more

specific about the duration over which the " maximum force " is to be

generated, the joint velocity at which it is to be generated, and the

instances in which such maximum force generation causes an adaptation

in the athlete that improves performance in some aspect of bicycle

racing, because these factors will (or should) affect the types of

strength exercises you prescribe to your cycling clients, assuming

that you're prescribing them for something other than general

conditioning. Do you know the percentage of 1RM that a trained

cyclist generates per pedal stroke during an all-out sprint? Do you

know the cadence at which the cyclists legs are pedaling during such

a sprint? Do you know the duration of an all-out sprint in a road or

track race? How about the percentage of 1RM exerted, cadence and

duration of kilo starts? How about for exiting a turn in a crit?

How about when climbing during an MTB race? Data for sprinting have

been published in the peer-reviewed literature. I'm not sure whether

peer-reviewed research has been published for events like crits, kilo

and MTB racing, but lots of data has been collected by racers who are

using wattage meters, and a certain amount of it has been shared, and

its implications discussed, on the wattage forum at " Google Groups. "

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

Chip Conrad wrote:

> Why? This seems like an assertive request in defiance of my

> anecdotal evidence.

" in defiance of " is an interesting choice of words, Chip. Anyone who

makes a claim on this forum should expect to be asked to support it

with a rigorous argument based upon facts and logic. That is all I

am asking. So let's have a look at your anecdotal evidence and see

how well it supports your position.

> When I competed (1992/93 was the last period of 'sanctioned'

> competition, amatuer local events here in Northern California and

> also the last period of my cross country competition) I kept time

> records of competition and non-competition rides.

> During the early 2000's I didn't ride much for about 4 years.

> A couple years ago I did some old routes that I kept records on. I

> destroyed my old times.

Even if we overlook the glaring lack of objective data here, this is

very weak support for your position. The changes in your elapsed

times over your measured courses are not reliable proof of a change

in fitness, because many other variables affect speed on the bike.

This topic has been fully discussed on the wattage forum at " Google

Groups. " I'll refer you and any other interested readers to the

archives of the wattage forum for more info on that topic. I would

post links to some of the relevant discussions there, but links won't

work because access to the archives is limited to members of the

group. Membership to the group is open, however, so it should take

little effort to gain access to the info.

> Do I need peer reviewed research to show that the weightroom can be

> a big benefit to endurance events?

Your question was posed sarcastically, but I'll respond as if you'd

asked in earnest. I gather that cyclists come to you for strength

coaching. Wouldn't you want to know whether research supports the

advice you give them? I've read your attempt to discredit the

scientific literature, and it's highly ironic, considering the fact

that advocates of strength training usually tout a small number of

published studies, only to have the flaws in those studies pointed

out by those who have read them. If you'd like to improve your

knowledge for the benefit of your cycling clients, post your

criticism of published research at the wattage forum, where

competitive cyclists and coaches who have read the published studies

(and even conducted a few of them) can respond to your argument with

specific references to the literature.

Putting the scientific literature aside, wouldn't you want to know

whether your advice is supported by other anecdotal evidence,

gathered from numerous accomplished bike racers who use wattage

meters to objectively measure their performance on the bike? Once

again I'll refer you to the wattage forum if you're interested in

learning more.

There has been a small amount of high-quality material posted here at

Supertraining (e.g., message # 35783), but you'll find much more

information of the same calibre at the wattage forum. (Don't take my

word for it--see for yourself.) Likewise, at the wattage forum, the

data and experience of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of accomplished

cyclists is freely shared. The choice is yours as to whether you

want to take advantage of such an outstanding resource.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

Yehoshua Zohar wrote:

> > > Last week while in the gym I noticed a young girl,

> > > about 15, doing a pseudo squat. [snip]

> > > I actually

> > > showed her a real squat and explained her dangerous

> > > errors. She then told me that she is part of a

> > > biking club and that she was strength training on

> > > the off season as prescribed by her coach. She

> > > didn't have the flexibility or ability to do a real

> > > squat but this young cyclist said her coach told her

> > > to immitate a pedaling movement and that was what

> > > she was doing! I asked her if her back hurt and she

> > > said yes but she was " tuffing it out " . After

> > > explaining the dangers of what she was doing, she

> > > thanked me politely for my time, explained to me

> > > that she was not a lifter like myself and continued

> > > to the next station as prescribed by her coach.

Dr. Ralph Giarnella responded:

> > For the last several days the above post kept coming

> > back to me and each time I would shake my head in

> > disbelief that in this day and age with all the

> > access to sports science there are still individuals

> > (such as the coach of this young cyclist) who take on

> > the task of coaching youngsters without the basic

> > rudimentary knowledge of the sport they are coaching.

> > There is nothing wrong with a 15 year old lifting

> > weights. [snip]

> > However, in my opinion, there is absolutely no role

> > for using weights, especially squatting, for a young

> > cyclist male or female.

*****

I wouldn't say there's no role at all, but I would agree that the

beneficial effects of lifting weights for bicycle racers has been

exaggerated to the extent that it can have severe negative

consequences for aspiring racers. I'll offer my own experience as an

example.

I started cycling competitively at the age of 31. This was in the

early 1990s, when Harvey Newton was the strength coach for the USCF.

He seemed very qualified to me--after all, he was a former power

lifter, and besides, why would the USCF hire a strength coach who

didn't have a state-of-the-art understanding of exercise science? So

I dutifully read Newton's book and followed his strength training

prescriptions. I barely improved.

Then Joe Friel's first book, The Cyclist's Training Bible, hit the

shelves, and I bought a copy right away. Friel had a master's degree

in exercise physiology and he cited the sources at the end of each

chapter, so when I read his material on strength training, I trusted

that it was based upon reliable scientific research. Again, I

dutifully followed his strength training prescriptions, but again, I

barely improved.

A couple years later, Carmichael became famous as the coach of

Lance Armstrong. He had his own strength training prescriptions,

which were published on the internet. They were very poorly written,

but I dutifully followed them as well as I could--after all, how

could Lance Armstrong's coach be wrong? Again, I barely improved.

This was around 1998, I was 36 years old, and my personal best for a

40k TT was a dismal 1:05--a long, long way from my dream to get below

one hour for that event.

In 1999, I began to read my wife's old exercise physiology textbook

(the one written by McArdle, Katch & Katch). Then I read Wilmore &

Costill's textbook. They certainly seemed to contradict the strength

training advice given by Carmichael, Friel and Newton. Then I found

a cycling discussion forum that was technically oriented. Among the

participants was Coggan, Ph.D., an exercise physiologist who

had earned a spot on the podium for the time trial at the USCF

master's national championships. Dr. Coggan patiently answered

questions by myself and others about strength training, and I learned

a lot.

Based on the textbooks and Dr. Coggan's posts, I came to understand

that strength training might improve sprint performance, and it might

help a cyclist to avoid certain types of injuries caused by long

hours in the saddle, but I found that there was almost no evidence to

support the idea that in-the-gym strength training was better than on-

the-bike strength training when it came to improving the amount of

power a cyclist could deliver when climbing long hills or pedaling on

flat terrain in road races and time trials. That's when I decided to

stop lifting weights and train on the bike exclusively.

In 2000, I rode a 40k TT in 1:00:06, over five minutes faster than my

previous best effort. I hoped to shave seven seconds off that time

and finish under one hour the next season, but little did I know how

much faster I was going to get after cutting strength training. In

2001 I rode the NJ state 40k TT championship in 57:12, finishing 25th

out of about 200 of the best time-trialists in the region. I

followed that a couple months later with a 57:19 in a rolling TT in

the MD master's 40k TT championship, finishing second in my age group

by only 13 seconds. I had not lifted weights in two years at that

point, and I was 40 years old, yet my performance had drastically

improved over the 1:05 I had ridden when I was in my mid thirties. I

had smashed my goal, and I was satisfied to quit racing bikes and

take up strength training for a change.

I don't point to my own story as anecdotal evidence that cutting the

weight training from my cycling regiment caused the increase in my

performance. There is plenty of scientific evidence that shows the

limited benefits of strength training for road cyclists and other

endurance athletes. However, there is a very important point to be

gained from my story.

The popular literature and internet chat forums are full of people

who tout strength training as an essential part of training for

bicycle racers. Some of those advocates seem to have impressive

credentials, while others are simply " Cat 3 know-it-alls " and others

are guys who do a lot of strength training but do little or no

cycling, and don't know much about the sport, yet still presume to

offer strength training advice to aspiring bike racers. As a

beginning bike racer in my early thirties, I allowed myself to be

persuaded by folks such as those, and in doing so I spent years of

frustratingly slow improvement. I cannot imagine how much faster my

40k TT performance would have been if I'd trained in my early 30s

like I did when I was 40. What a waste. I hate to think of aspiring

new bike racers being led to waste their limited time with unfounded

stories about the wonderful improvement they could make if they would

only cut back on their cycling so they can incorporate weights

lifting into their training program.

So this message is for Farmer, if he's still reading the

messages on this thread, and for any other aspiring bike racers.

There are lots of places where cyclists are told to lift weights.

There are only a handful of internet forums where cyclists can learn

the limited benefits of strength training, such that they can decide

for themselves if/how to incorporate strength training into their

training programs. As far as I know, the wattage forum at Google

Groups is the best of them, which is why I have kept mentioning it in

my posts in this thread.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

> A bike racer might improve his or her race results after adding

your

> strength training, but the improvement might be due to any number

of

> other causes, such as better on-the-bike training, or less stress

at

> work or at home. This is why your anecdotal evidence doesn't

> reliably support the assertion that your " techniques " were the

sole

> cause, or even a significant cause, of that improvement. And this

is

> also why studies that are properly designed and conducted would be

> useful for determining what types of strength training might help

to

> improve endurance performance.

***

If race results go up after all the in-gym indicators go up, there

is a pretty good chance there is a correlation. Perfect fact? No,

but a darn good chance that there can be a relation. The in-gym

stats can also directly correlate with imporved training on the

bike. Why wouldn't that make sense?

Meanwhile 'properly designed studies' might not quite exist that can

do as strong a correlation as you'd like. And as we've seen too

often, studies often have to 'catch up' with what is already being

practiced. This isn't to say anything being proposed here is 'new'

or 'revolutionary, but studies, as I've mentioned, often have very

limited viewpoints as to what 'weight training' is.

>In fact, you have no way of knowing whether your cyclists might be

> achieving even better results if they stopped using your strength

> training advice and made other changes to their training programs.

**

Couldn't you say that about any program? With my personal examples,

the cyclists involved are new to my program, while abandoning a

previous training program (designed by a cyclist coach). Their

times are quicker. Am I selling them bunk? Should I stop training

them?

> But if you're saying that " maximum force generation " by itself

> directly improves on-the-bike performance, then you need to be

more

> specific about the duration over which the " maximum force " is to

be

> generated, the joint velocity at which it is to be generated, and

the

> instances in which such maximum force generation causes an

adaptation

> in the athlete that improves performance in some aspect of bicycle

> racing, because these factors will (or should) affect the types of

> strength exercises you prescribe to your cycling clients, assuming

> that you're prescribing them for something other than general

> conditioning.

***

Are you trying to say that a strength program needs to be so sport

specific that we need to isolate certain joint angles, ranges of

motion and velocities to create maximum benefit? Do you practice

this?

>Do you know the percentage of 1RM that a trained

> cyclist generates per pedal stroke during an all-out sprint? Do

you

> know the cadence at which the cyclists legs are pedaling during

such

> a sprint? Do you know the duration of an all-out sprint in a road

or

> track race? How about the percentage of 1RM exerted, cadence and

> duration of kilo starts? How about for exiting a turn in a crit?

> How about when climbing during an MTB race? Data for sprinting

have

> been published in the peer-reviewed literature. I'm not sure

whether

> peer-reviewed research has been published for events like crits,

kilo

> and MTB racing, but lots of data has been collected by racers who

are

> using wattage meters, and a certain amount of it has been shared,

and

> its implications discussed, on the wattage forum at " Google

Groups. "

***

I'm always reading. I'm always learning. My question to you, then,

is how would you train a cyclist? How do you prescribe force

development? And why?

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

[Guest guest]

I'm defending against critique without explaination or alternative.

Offering further reading through google does not a strong case make,

nor do you seem to have a major problem with force development,

except that I'm not very 'exact' about it. Your only alternative is

to read about wattage training. Will do, but what else ya got?

I could list a bunch of decent reading material too (and I'll be

happy to check out the resources you've provided, by the way).

You're asking for peer reviewed studies. I have none personally,

and I still see a lack of understanding in the research world as to

how resistance training should be truly defined. In fact, let's look

at how this study would probably be performed:

Resistance training to increase cycling ability: 3 month study? 6

month study? The rep scheme would be, what 10-12 reps? Of what? Leg

extensions? Maybe leg press? Then this would be tested against

what? A group that doesn't do the leg exercises? Would there be

force development tests at certain ranges of motion?

How exactly would this be done?

I realize that this board often denies anecdotal evidence, despite

the fact that 'time under the bar,' as Dave Tate calls it, is where

the abundance of advanced programs come from. I've given you a

personal example. You didn't like it. I've got more, many, many

more. You won't like them either.

Here's a challenge: I've presented a program for dissection. Not

even a program, just a loose template of training concepts that can

be utilized by anyone.

Your turn. (Referencing google searches doesn't count)

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

>

> > Why? This seems like an assertive request in defiance of my

> > anecdotal evidence.

>

> " in defiance of " is an interesting choice of words, Chip. Anyone

who

> makes a claim on this forum should expect to be asked to support

it

> with a rigorous argument based upon facts and logic. That is all

I

> am asking. So let's have a look at your anecdotal evidence and

see

> how well it supports your position.

>

> > When I competed (1992/93 was the last period of 'sanctioned'

> > competition, amatuer local events here in Northern California

and

> > also the last period of my cross country competition) I kept

time

> > records of competition and non-competition rides.

> > During the early 2000's I didn't ride much for about 4 years.

> > A couple years ago I did some old routes that I kept records

on. I

> > destroyed my old times.

>

> Even if we overlook the glaring lack of objective data here, this

is

> very weak support for your position. The changes in your elapsed

> times over your measured courses are not reliable proof of a

change

> in fitness, because many other variables affect speed on the

bike.

> This topic has been fully discussed on the wattage forum

at " Google

> Groups. " I'll refer you and any other interested readers to the

> archives of the wattage forum for more info on that topic. I

would

> post links to some of the relevant discussions there, but links

won't

> work because access to the archives is limited to members of the

> group. Membership to the group is open, however, so it should

take

> little effort to gain access to the info.

>

> > Do I need peer reviewed research to show that the weightroom can

be

> > a big benefit to endurance events?

>

> Your question was posed sarcastically, but I'll respond as if

you'd

> asked in earnest. I gather that cyclists come to you for strength

> coaching. Wouldn't you want to know whether research supports the

> advice you give them? I've read your attempt to discredit the

> scientific literature, and it's highly ironic, considering the

fact

> that advocates of strength training usually tout a small number of

> published studies, only to have the flaws in those studies pointed

> out by those who have read them. If you'd like to improve your

> knowledge for the benefit of your cycling clients, post your

> criticism of published research at the wattage forum, where

> competitive cyclists and coaches who have read the published

studies

> (and even conducted a few of them) can respond to your argument

with

> specific references to the literature.

>

> Putting the scientific literature aside, wouldn't you want to know

> whether your advice is supported by other anecdotal evidence,

> gathered from numerous accomplished bike racers who use wattage

> meters to objectively measure their performance on the bike? Once

> again I'll refer you to the wattage forum if you're interested in

> learning more.

>

> There has been a small amount of high-quality material posted here

at

> Supertraining (e.g., message # 35783), but you'll find much more

> information of the same calibre at the wattage forum. (Don't take

my

> word for it--see for yourself.) Likewise, at the wattage forum,

the

> data and experience of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of accomplished

> cyclists is freely shared. The choice is yours as to whether you

> want to take advantage of such an outstanding resource.

>

> Regards,

>

> s

> Ardmore, PA

>

[Guest guest]

Chip Conrad wrote:

> Here's a challenge: I've presented a program for dissection. Not

> even a program, just a loose template of training concepts that can

> be utilized by anyone.

>

> Your turn. (Referencing google searches doesn't count)

No, this is not a game, and it's not my turn. You made some

unsubstantiated claims. I asked you to support them. You responded

with anecdotal support. I critiqued your response. You presented a

rebuttal of my critique. At this point, people can read our

conversation and decide for themselves how much weight to give to

your claims.

Now you're asking me to " present a program for dissection. " For

what: MTB racing? Road racing? What kind of road racing--hilly

road races, criteriums, time trials? Track racing? What kind of

track racing--mass start, match sprints, kilo, pursuit? For what

type of rider--one whose strong suit is a relatively high power at

lactate threshhold but who has a comparatively weaker anaerobic

capacity? Or one whose strong suit is a high anaerobic capacity but

who has a comparatively weaker power at lactate threshhold? The

challenge you propose shows that there's a lot more to cycling

performance than you're aware of.

I know a lot about cycling and exercise physiology that you

apparently don't know or don't use, but unlike you I don't presume to

offer coaching advice to cyclists. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean I

can't ask a person to support unfounded claims, nor does it mean that

I can't point out when such support is obviously weak.

Still want a " a loose template of training concepts that can

be utilized by anyone " ? A template like that would fill a book. In

fact, it already has: Training and Racing with a Power Meter, by

Hunter and Coggan, Ph.D. This book is widely known

among serious bicycle racers, but based on what you've written in

this thread, it's obvious you've never even heard of it--just one

more indication of your lack of knowledge about bicycle racing and

coaching.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA