Re: Vitamix PLEASE EXPLAIN

[Guest guest]

ew you state <snip> " Simone, I did a lot of research and went with the Blendtec.

Blendtec sued Vitamix for patent infringements and won $24 million.

Blentec is also slightly cheaper. [ ] Check their web site about demo shows near

you. The sell them at even a better price then [ ]ew <

Ernst -- you say " I did a lot of research and went with the Blentec. . . . "

I do thank you for your research - but 'what is right for one may  be wrong for

another'.  PLEASE SHARE YOUR RESEARCH WITH THE GROUP -- just saying you did

your research doesn't really answer anything at all except that you felt, after

you did your research, that YOU FELT BLENTC WAS BEST FOR ***YOU***.

Now I KNOW that this only half the story, or there would only be one product out

there.  Would you please tell me -- or better yet, share with the group exactly

what material you used to evaluate each product, how you gave more weight to one

claim than another -- eg claim #1 was verified by a disinterested lab with no

ties to the findings one way or another and claim #2 was made by the in-house

lab of the

corporate itself.  I know I would PROBABLY give more weight to an " apparent "

independent lab than a lab which appeared more dependent upon the maker for

funding. 

So simply as a single individual -- I would like to know what material you

looked at, what each piece of material said, why you believed one piece of

evidence more than another - and finally WHY you chose one product over

another.  You mention going to a seminar(?) or (demonstration) -- did you go to

both close enough together in time that you'd be able to remember them both so

you still had the salient points in your mind and weren't swept up in the

emotion of one over the other because it was closer in time, or because the

salesman had a better pitch?  I know that often I'd travel several hundred

miles one way to compare lab equipment, and have to go back to the first

presentations a second time because the 'magic of the moment' was lost on me,

and I wondered exactly WHY I was thinking of spending $4, 000 more for one set

of research scopes than another, or when I AM looking for a computer for myself

exactly WHY I am looking at a $1, 000 difference

between Computer A, B and C when they all see very much the same. And remember:

Oh! Duh! it's the 7200 RPM hard-drive of a proven reliability over the far

cheaper but larger 5900 RPM hard drive of another maker -- or that the speed

measurement is for the front end bus and not the through-put-speed!!!

We also simply don't know WHY or WHAT The patent infringement was -- it can be

as simple as using one kind of seal to protect a motor from moisture that works

better than another - or it could be that a cheaper way was found to protect the

motor from moisture than another -- however while it's cheaper doesn't mean it's

better (or worse).  So a patent suit might win because if you thicken a motor

shaft, THEN put on a silicone seal that looks like a bobbin from a sewing

machine the seal will LOOK like it does a better job -- but while you use a

silicone material which has a life

expectancy of 3 years, and I take the idea of using the 'double seal where each

flange of the seal helps keep part of the shaft dry(er) I use a more reactive

product which allows the inclusion of a substance which is an FDA approved

antifungalagent that is held in time-release capsules which out-gas over several

years, and keep the hard-to-clean area free from fungal growth --

So I've taken the idea of a 'double flange' seal (the patent) and use a

different material that 1) lasts longer and/or 2) is impregnated with

anti-bacterial agents to make processing food 'safer' -- and I have 'lost' a

patent war. Or I have even simply 'settled' out of court because it's cheaper to

pay off a court fine than it is to pay a lawyer and drag out the problem for

YEARS than it is to settle things  now.  Several times I've simply dropped a

suit against a tenant than to pursue it since I'll never see any money out of

the tenant and it's cheaper to replace a broken window, replace the stove they

used for a heater when they ran out of credit for their heating oil -- and

called it a day, than to take them to court, fight it for two or three years,

and end up with what I had to get anyway - a new stove -- and if I DID win --

what are the chances that the tenant would pay me back for the stove and window

without a SECOND law suit to attach their

wages, at $10 a month for 100 months plus interest and attorney fees?  Let the

suit go - it's VERY common in commercial settings. 

It might be something as simple as using a horizontal over a vertical shaft,

or  a worm gear over a syncromesh gear.  So winning or losing a 'patent' war

may or may not be significant -- they happen ALL the time between major

manufacturers.  GRANDpa had a steam jet he put in an old Kenmore gas dryer back

in the 1950's -- now I see one being advertized somewhere - should I sue them

and point out that my Grandfather had used EXACTLY the same principal in the

late 1950's and early 1960's to keep our work-clothes wrinkle free?  Saying a

company won a patent suit MIGHT be significant,but it doesn't mean one company

is better than another, it just means that they both came up the a similar

solution - a solution to  a  common problem can often had a common or similar

remedy.  can be proven to be TOO simple.  I think EVERYONE will have a good

laugh at this patent which was approved by the Government of Australia recently

issued a patent for a "

" circular transportation facilitation device "

(see ref: 2 August 2001 PDF document:

http://www.ipmenu.com/archive/AUI_2001100012.pdf)

published:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn965-wheel-patented-in-australia.html

   

etc + multiple other-cites)

Now SOMETHING made you decide from your research that one machine was better

than another -- it could be something as intangible as it had a cord the right

lengh for your work space not requiring an extension cord, nor a careful way to

coil and store the excess, to a color which you or your significant other found

pleasing, to the general overall quality of the brand, or it's general length of

service before a major repair, to things as mundane as the cost vs your income,

the ability to purchase it sans interest over X number of days/weeks/months, the

fact that it was made from

one type of plastic over another, to be constructed of a plastic covered type

of metal (ferrous or non- ferrous) or the fact that it was made from

powder-coated, enameled, or a plated base (or elemental) metal. 

Since you have done the research, I would like to ask that you share it with us

as a group so that we don't have to re-create your time and energy of

collecting, reading, sorting through, and finally deciding upon an

interpretation of the facts as you perceived them to be presented.

I know that often I am VERY surprised when I read independent research into

various items and find the conclusions drawn to be opposite my own observation

or experience  with the same brand.  For example Consumer's Union -- a US

company which publishes _Consumer Reports_ a magazine which does not take a

penny in advertizing and does not allow even it's NAME to be used in adverting,

nor in any article which implies one product is better than

another. 

I saw, that it listed a VERY low cost, and generally considered to be a very low

quality producer of electronic equipment, Radio Shack,  as earning a rating of

a cassette tape recorder as #1 or #2 overall in it's scoring system.  I

pondered this for quite a while, and finally made a personal judgement call that

they rated the product _in situ_ , meaning: (lit) in it's original position. 

Now my experience is that -- from their TRS 1900 AND TRS 2000 Computers to their

cassette tape recorders to their Volt-Ohm-amp meteres -- they produced a quality

just the near side of 'poop'.  And could NOT figure out how they always seemed

to rate so highly.  The answer is simply that they did not move them as part of

the test -- it was not a 'real life' test! -- If you bought a Radio Shack VOM or

Cassette recorder and never moved it - except to open the box and let it it sit

there, unused and unmoved - it worked just fine.  the moment you started to use

it, it

fell apart, the plastic was so poorly blended that it cracked, and the pot's

controlling the volume, balance, etc were so poorly made that they, also, simply

fell apart.

So when I read that you took the time to gather the material together to do

research, then DID the research  -- and came away with the informed opinion

that one brand out shone the others -- I would very much like to know EXACTLY

WHY you made that decision. 

I hope to not seem too rude - or rude at all - or to seem as if I did not

believe you - for I may well believe you -- I simply don't know WHY one would

want more than a simple blender  -- and that is me, personally.  I think you

owe it to others to share your journey of inquiry to others might not be lead

down the (to you) misguided road.  I know you have insights that are important

to you, and would like you to share them with the group.

I use pressure cookers - a LOT, and am sold on the Kunh-Rikon brand.  Some of

why is based upon research in the real sense of the word - looking through reams

of paper generated by labs showing specific heat, gradient of heat transfer over

time, time of temperature rise vs cooking time, etc.  Stuff I got off the web

and out of trade mags where the audience was NOT people like you or me, but

other manufactures, and folks like NASA where, if you use their material, you

have to publish the findings from YOUR studies of the material under the

conditions you use it.  This is so they can learn more about applications their

engineers had not considered. (I learned this nifty bit of data when I was

buying a top-of-the-line winter-jacket to take the blistering cold winds of the

Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming plains -  and the jacket used

a fiber called 'out-last' the brand name they gave it.  I was a fiber which

took heat from one place --

say under your arms -- and redistributed it around the threads in all other

parts of the coat, so when you stopped moving, your coat would stay warm -- ALL

OVER, and slowly re-radiate heat back into the environment - hot or cold -- it

was synthetic so didn't follow the 'Law of Wet Down' - " If down gets wet, you

will die'.  NASA used this information to improve the design of their own

materials.  

Though I do admit that MOST of what I used when I went to pick out a pressure

cooker was based upon a VERY biased report from an old girlfriend I went to Grad

School with and who described the plights of living on a sail boat in the south

pacific -- the perils of running out of fuel -- and now this brand of pressure

cooker paid for itself in retail (she got it through permission to rummage under

international salvage law when a boat was declared abandoned and open to

salvage) over a period of LESS than a year.  And did it in DEAD SILENCE. 

Coupled with the input of several (3?4?5? more?) friends who were attending the

San Francisco Culinary Arts Institute and an ASL interpreter of some classes on

the use of a pressure cooker -- I had two people bring one up -- and was sold

instantly - and when it brought water to pressure on top of my old wood/gas

combination stove I was SOLD - not just because it was able to so it faster than

any other pressure cooker I had (old weighted Presto and Wisconson Foundry

canning and cooking pressure cookers) - but did it in DEAD SILENCE!!!! IN fact,

before I had bubbles around my boiling stone, I had water simmering in the

Kunh-Rikon and the pressure

button had popped up showing it was starting to build heat and pressure.

Not to get too side tracked, though it's probably too late now - How COULD you

you tell it was 'over pressure' if you could hear it. Well, it was over-pressure

WHEN you heard it, OR when it was louder than the burner on the stove-- and for

me the FINAL test was that it would cook 4 literes of mixed bean, grain, and

legume soup over my emergency camp stove using a dirty kerosceine-disel mix at

about 6500-7000 feet - in the same length of time it took me to cook it on a

regular kitchen stove in my kitchen.  It would also cook 3 large artichokes in

TWO TABLESPOONS OF WATER in 8 minutes !!!!!! - now THAT'S empirical evidence

that's NOT provided in literature  -- though it's easily replicated by anyone

in the length of time it takes to heat-boil-and pressurize a given volume of

water in a

pot of an equivalent volume of water.

That's evidence worth sharing.  Which I just did.  And I wonder if you would

share with the group what made you decide what made you choose your brand other

other brands -- and I think that the rest of the group is mature enough that

they will respect your decision, and the way you made it, even if it's not the

way THEY would make their decision.

I've always believed that there are always MANY ways to 'pluck a chicken' - none

of which are wrong -- and there are MANY ways to cook a chicken most of which

are pretty darned good! --

So, in order for an 'open exchange of ideas' to work, we each have to accept the

journey and experiences of others - and know that the reasons for one person are

just as valid as for another person--- like a very good friend used to always

tell me - if you want the freedom to make a mistake, you have to give that

freedom to another.  I also know that a lot of times a person with a very valid

point of view won't speak up because they are afraid that others will attack

them -- and while I can't speak for anyone but me -- I HOPE I can assure you

that the group will treat your choice as the right one for you - and I for one

am very curious WHY you made the choice you made - I do thank you in advance.

Oh, and I too find 'refurbished' the best deal around, I have an absolute top 

of the line Dell computer I bought about 10 years ago that's JUST beginning t

fail me in memory -- it only takes 2 Gigs up front, but that was maxed out when

I got it - It came though the line as a 'return' model - and I grabbed it -- and

10 years later, running 24 hours a day 7 days a week for 10 years, with the

exception of the once a week shut down do defrag and do minor maintenance it's

worked just fine - and it's only because it will no longer multitask -- run

graphic intensive programs AND run long-string-algorithms for statistical

annalists that I'm finding that I have some stack-overflow problems that pop up

overnight when I'm running a program I have now given priority to -- so this

computer and one other, an early SONY VAIO for high-intensity graphics work are

the only two comptuers I have owned in my professional work and both lasted

close to 10 years, both ran

24/7 and I do swear by the 'they look at them twice' principal.  If the

warranty off the end of the line is the same, I don't hesitate and I've buried

MANY - perhaps countless comptuers my office mate has gotten over the years --

he used computer supplied by the U and I always used my own so ANY work done on

my computer belongs to ME and not the University  and let my office mate run my

issued computer as a slave to his.  So from past experience, I've found

refurbished machines tend to run one generation behind (or that's where I buy

them, at the VERY end of the year), is about 3/4-2/3 the cost of the brand new

current model, and carries the same warranty. And non-electronic things I have

no problem at all with them. 

Except now e-bay is pretty standardized and 'good deals' are VERY hard to

find. 

So=-= I really would like a DETAILED run down by PERSONAL experience and

RESEARCH (!!!!) Why one machine is better than the next.  I've tended to find

that -- well I'll just wait and learn.  thanks all. -- paul -- 

So often I don't honestly SEE the need for fancy new equiptment - as I wrote

VERY early on in my correspondanc with the oup -- I didn't undertsant the need

for a juicer over a blender - or the need for plastic or metal -- very energy

intensive and resource hogging industries to produce a seeded, when most of the

older texts talk about pany hose,  linnen, cotton, and berlap as 'seed beds'

for sprouting - seeds.  In fact I tend to recall many people still mentioning

thse things as ways to determine how to find the seeds which are good for you to

use and to find the types of seeds which you are going to enjoy uising in your

diet, so you can pick the 'more' correct 'commercial' machines which fit your

seeding life-style.

I honeslty do not mean to come off sounding hostile - I would just like to see

the data you used in making your informed decison - and to

follow you thorugh that process so I can understand what critria you use to

choose 'good' over 'bad', or 'better' orver 'worse' in your decision makeing.

If we all share this data with each other -- we aren't left out in the dark --

or choosing a machine which suits YOU perfectly, but would not sever me at all

well -- not well at BEST -- and absolutely not at all at the worst! --

I do thank you in advance and look forward to your reply.  And if you DO feel

offended, or put off, please excuse me -- it was not my intention - I am hopeing

to help improve the decisons made by people on this list so we all understand

that a decison made by you is the perfect decsion for me as well - AND that

perhaps a reason you chose to NOT buy something is EXACTLY the reason I need to

buy one for ME or a friend! - -

Thank you in advance, and, again, I do not mean to make you feel ill-at-ease in

the least bit!  Just trying to get a free

exchance of information so we can all use the time and energy we each put forth

individually and put it in a form that can be used by all to make a decision

perfect for them as individuals.

It need not be SPECIFIC - so for example - on my research for a new pair of snow

boots this year, I leanred the my (perhaps our) beloved Sorel's were sold out to

the compnay which makes " Colombia " and are now made at the 'piece-rate' method

in Vietnam (not a place noted for leaking boots equaling death on the trail) --

and that what appears to be an inordinate number of comments by buyers menion

that 1) the seams leak 2) the boots are now narrower than they used to be, 3)

the toungue of many boots seem to 'crap' and not maintain the same shape you

carefully break them in at -- often mentining that the sewing at the stitching

at the toungue seems to not run true and straight that may force the tounge out

of allingment, 4) extra layers of socks tend to 'bind'

the boot and finally 5) the 'leather-synthetic' boundry seperates (often with

cracks in the synthetic leading to out-right holes you can put your finger or

thum though) after only a few months of constant wearing. 

So it's good-by to the beloved family friends that belonged to your great-great

grandparents forward -- no longer will a single pair last you 3-10 years, not

the top seems to be 10- years, and the 'life time guarentee' - ??? - it's still

there -- for what ever 'the life-time of the boot' means.  While I LOVE the

removeable lining of the Sorel - when I was buying a pair of low temp-rough

use-thermal boots -- I was faced with three boots - and I chose the Cabella's

boot rated at -150*F only because it was on sale at less than half price and

$200 less than the one I would have picked - the Baffin Explorer rated weak only

in water-proffing (80% said water proof, but not 100%) but I can turn

not-water-proof, into waterproof with

warmed to liquid waxs and oil -- and they'll stay waterproof even after many

days on the trail. -- but at $200CAN and the Cabela's at $70 US incluing

shiping, doens't take a calculator to figure the exchange rate - and the

Cabellas are rated water proof and for -140*F (the inferno) - so that's kind of

how I rated the boots I was looking at, and why I chose the ones I chose.

                 

Dream Well. Travel Well.  May you Walk Your Path in Beauty.

" Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " Carl Sagan.

>________________________________

>

>To: sproutpeople

>Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:18 AM

>Subject: Re: Vitamix model

>

>

> 

>Simone, I did a lot of research and went with the Blendtec.

>Blendtec sued Vitamix for patent infringements and won $24 million.

>Blentec is also slightly cheaper.

>Check their web site about demo shows near you. The sell them at even a better

price then

>ew

>

> Vitamix model

>

>Thinking about finally getting a Vitamix, although my blender makes great

>smoothies with sprouts, but may want to go a bit further with leafy greens

>at times ... so I've been looking around and have found a lot of people

>recommend getting the model without the variable speed knob, saying it is

>not necessary, that you can just go from low to high and that's sufficient.

>

>Any thoughts on the model?

>

>I'm looking at the 1782 at Amazon which sells for 378.95, free shipping.

>

>Thanks in advance for your input --

>Simone

>

>Simone Karsman

>Certified Holistic Aromatherapist

>www.FlutterbyeAromatics.com

>Savannah GA

>skarsman%40gmail.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

was just trying to be friendly and not appear rude.   Please tell me what

'evidence' you reviewed, and explain what made you chose one over the other -

please compare and contrast the machines and give specific reasons why one

machine met which needs you had the best.  While you are at it, please explain

in detail the details that you liked about he machine you did NOT choose. 

Thanks.  I'm sure everyone on the list can learn from your research, and it

would seem to be to be selfish not to share it with everyone else the fruits of

your labor. Why do something twice when we cal all learn from your efforts. 

thanks, paul

 

Dream Well. Travel Well.  May you Walk Your Path in Beauty.

" Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " Carl Sagan.

>________________________________

>

>To: sproutpeople

>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 12:02 PM

>Subject: Re: Vitamix PLEASE EXPLAIN

>

>

> 

>,

>I choose to ignor this, as I do all of your rambling e-mails

>ew

>

> Vitamix model

>>

>>Thinking about finally getting a Vitamix, although my blender makes great

>>smoothies with sprouts, but may want to go a bit further with leafy greens

>>at times ... so I've been looking around and have found a lot of people

>>recommend getting the model without the variable speed knob, saying it is

>>not necessary, that you can just go from low to high and that's sufficient.

>>

>>Any thoughts on the model?

>>

>>I'm looking at the 1782 at Amazon which sells for 378.95, free shipping.

>>

>>Thanks in advance for your input --

>>Simone

>>

>>Simone Karsman

>>Certified Holistic Aromatherapist

>>www.FlutterbyeAromatics.com

>>Savannah GA

>>skarsman%40gmail.com

>>

>>