new to the group

January 16, 2001

Hi Michele, and welcome to the group.

> Thank you for bearing with me. I never knew until a few weeks ago

> that this disorder even existed, my jaw hit the floor when I read

> some

> literature on the subject and thought someone must have been living

> in my closet all these years watching my mother

Isn't it the weirdest feeling? I have said that too, more than once. You'll

find that we are all 'twins' to each other too. All us KOs (kids of BP

parents) have had very similar experiences.

> Within a week I had asked her to moved in with me, she was begining

> to threaten suicide as her only other choice other than my help. ...

> she is here (cant kick her out... LOL)

Eek. I can't help you with this one. I can understand how you would get

roped into doing something like this, with her threats of suicide. But it is

REALLY GREAT that you have found BPD central, and this list. We all give

each other so much support, the healing effect is amazing. MAybe someone

else can give tyou

Do buy SWOE as soon as you can. It's a real eye-opener.

Hugs and prayers,

January 16, 2001

Hi Michele, and welcome to the group.

> Thank you for bearing with me. I never knew until a few weeks ago

> that this disorder even existed, my jaw hit the floor when I read

> some

> literature on the subject and thought someone must have been living

> in my closet all these years watching my mother

Isn't it the weirdest feeling? I have said that too, more than once. You'll

find that we are all 'twins' to each other too. All us KOs (kids of BP

parents) have had very similar experiences.

> Within a week I had asked her to moved in with me, she was begining

> to threaten suicide as her only other choice other than my help. ...

> she is here (cant kick her out... LOL)

Eek. I can't help you with this one. I can understand how you would get

roped into doing something like this, with her threats of suicide. But it is

REALLY GREAT that you have found BPD central, and this list. We all give

each other so much support, the healing effect is amazing. MAybe someone

else can give tyou

Do buy SWOE as soon as you can. It's a real eye-opener.

Hugs and prayers,

January 16, 2001

Hi Michele, and welcome to the group.

> Thank you for bearing with me. I never knew until a few weeks ago

> that this disorder even existed, my jaw hit the floor when I read

> some

> literature on the subject and thought someone must have been living

> in my closet all these years watching my mother

Isn't it the weirdest feeling? I have said that too, more than once. You'll

find that we are all 'twins' to each other too. All us KOs (kids of BP

parents) have had very similar experiences.

> Within a week I had asked her to moved in with me, she was begining

> to threaten suicide as her only other choice other than my help. ...

> she is here (cant kick her out... LOL)

Eek. I can't help you with this one. I can understand how you would get

roped into doing something like this, with her threats of suicide. But it is

REALLY GREAT that you have found BPD central, and this list. We all give

each other so much support, the healing effect is amazing. MAybe someone

else can give tyou

Do buy SWOE as soon as you can. It's a real eye-opener.

Hugs and prayers,

January 16, 2001

Michele,

Oh boy, you've got yourself into quite a pickle! Your

story just made my heart break, and I have lots of

things to say (surprise, surprise -- I'm not exactly

famous for my brevity!).

First, make sure you read the e-mail that was sent to

you when you joined this list -- it has lots of good

info, along with explanations of all the abbreviations

we use, etc.

Second, if you haven't done so already, get your hands

on some books and start reading. Start with Stop

Walking on Eggshells (SWOE -- our list bible), and I

would also strongly recommend a book(s) on

codependancy. Most KOs (kids of BPs) are codependent

-- we learned at an early age that the key to survival

was to ignore our own needs and wants in favor of

nada's/fada's. I'm reading Codepedent No More by

Melody Beattie -- it's mostly geared towards people in

chosen relationships with alcoholics, but a lot of it

can be transferred to the nada situation. Reading

will help you understand your situation better, and

will also reinforce that YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!! This

was an amazing revelation for me, and it helps a lot

-- as you have already discovered.

It sounds like you are lost in some seriously heavy

FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and your nada knows it.

So many of us KOs feel " responsible " for our nada (and

everyone else, for that matter) -- we have to " do the

right thing/act the right way/say the right things " .

This is a seriously distorted form of thinking that

results from the nada-inflicted emotional abuse -- and

allows us to be easily manipulated. It is very

important for you to realize that this way of thinking

is NOT NORMAL!!!! You do NOT have to feel this way.

The only person you are responsible for is YOURSELF!

You are especially NOT responsible for the feelings of

other people (it's pretty hard for KOs to wrap their

brains around that one).

Unfortunately, understanding these concepts and

applying them to your life are two completely

different things. We talk a lot on this list about

the two stages you have to go through -- (1) cognitive

understanding (at an intellectual level) and (2)

emotional understanding (reprogramming/re-parenting

yourself and your actions and reactions). Cognitive

understanding usually comes quickly and fairly easily.

Most people on this list get there fast. It's the

emotional re-programming that is long and arduous. It

can be really frustrating when you have a complete

intellectual understanding of the situation you're in

and how you're being manipulated, yet you respond

emotionally just like you always have. I'm not all the

way there yet, but with time I have noticed an

improvement at least. It takes a while for that

cognitive understanding to trickle down into our

hearts. So try not to get frustrated -- you will make

progress, however slowly!

<<

She cried and cried telling me how much she loved me,

how I was all she ever loved, that she forgave me for

all the wrong things I have done...

>>

BPs know that " love " is a strong chain to yank. KOs

feel very unloved, so telling us that we're loved

(whether it's backed by actions or not) can sometimes

make us pretty malleable. Unfortunately, the love of

a BP is usually conditional -- they expect something

in return ( " I will love you if you let me live with

you " ). I also find it interesting that she has

" forgiven " you for all the wrong things you have done.

Somehow I have the feeling that you don't need to be

forgiven for anything.

<<

she was begining to threaten suicide as her only other

choice other than my help.

>>

All suicide threats should be taken seriously, but you

need to understand that these threats are commonly

used by BPs to manipulate the people around them. She

wants you to believe (and may believe herself) that

you are the only person that can help her. This is

not true. She can help herself.

<<

I am 32 and was diagnosed with severe

depression/anzxiety disorder 8 yrs ago.

>>

Many KOs suffer from physical and emotional problems

-- with good reason. We have suffered emotional abuse

since we were children. We learned to repress and

ignore our feelings -- resulting in a festering wound

that manifests itself emotionally and/or physically.

I have struggled with depression and " unexplained "

fatigue for almost 15 years (I am almost 30). I am a

firm believer that I must STOP repressing my feelings

and learn how to feel, express and accept them (easier

said than done!). I think this will do something that

all the medication in the world could not accomplish

for me -- give me my life back. We have to deal with

our past, and change the way we handle the present, in

order to live happy, healthy lives.

<<

I pray that I will find the strength to help us both

now that she is here (cant kick her out... LOL)

>>

Why do you need the strength to help both of you? You

are only responsible for yourself. I can certainly

understand that this is a very difficult situation. I

think KOs continuously put themselves into bad

situations like this because we hold onto the hope

that we can have a " normal " family if we just do the

right thing. Unfortunately, our nada-distorted

understanding of " the right thing " usually involves

letting nada stomp all over us. In a normal, loving

family, I could see a daughter allowing her mother to

move in FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME until she is able

to get back on her feet. There are two things that

are different about your situtation -- (1) you do not

have a normal, loving family and (2) you made no

mention of a time limit on your mother's stay, so I'm

assuming it has not been discussed (and even if it

has, you can never believe what a BP says anyway --

they just tell you what you want to hear, whether they

mean it or not). Now, hold onto your hat, YOU DO NOT

HAVE TO LET YOUR MOTHER LIVE WITH YOU. She is a grown

woman, she is capable of caring for herself (whether

she believes it or not), and she is NOT your

responsibility. You do NOT have to feel guilty

because you don't want her to live with you. It

definitely would have been easier if you had never

asked her to move in in the first place, but you can

still make her leave if you want to. And you are not

required to make her understand why. Just tell her

she has to find her own place to live, tell her to go

to a domestic violence shelter where she can get

professional help. When she throws a temper tantrum

and demands an explanation, just repeat that she has

to find her own place. Do not allow her to suck you

into an argument, because she'll twist everything

around and she'll win. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU!!!!!

<<

When I was young I would just apologize to keep the

peace (dispite the abuse), I realise as an adult that

I cant do that anymore, but I dont know where to

start.

>>

This is a very difficult thing. You no longer want to

apologize and placate her just to keep the peace

because it feels like you're selling your soul (I

know, I struggle with the same thing). Yet, you know

no other way of doing things (read SWOE, it has

suggestions; also, as you heal, it will become easier

and more natural to do what's best for you). And

believe me, nada doesn't want it any other way. Many

KOs are unable to maintain their own identity as well

as a relationship with nada. There are quite a few

people on this list who have no (or very limited

contact) with nada.

Only you can know what is best for you, but I would

strongly encourage you to consider asking her to

leave. I think it will be very difficult for you to

heal under these circumstances, and I doubt very much

that you will be happy with her living with you. Why

would you do something that makes you unhappy? There

is no universal law that says you have to do this.

Think about it, and keep writing in.

Hugs,

Anon

__________________________________________________

January 16, 2001

Michele,

Oh boy, you've got yourself into quite a pickle! Your

story just made my heart break, and I have lots of

things to say (surprise, surprise -- I'm not exactly

famous for my brevity!).

First, make sure you read the e-mail that was sent to

you when you joined this list -- it has lots of good

info, along with explanations of all the abbreviations

we use, etc.

Second, if you haven't done so already, get your hands

on some books and start reading. Start with Stop

Walking on Eggshells (SWOE -- our list bible), and I

would also strongly recommend a book(s) on

codependancy. Most KOs (kids of BPs) are codependent

-- we learned at an early age that the key to survival

was to ignore our own needs and wants in favor of

nada's/fada's. I'm reading Codepedent No More by

Melody Beattie -- it's mostly geared towards people in

chosen relationships with alcoholics, but a lot of it

can be transferred to the nada situation. Reading

will help you understand your situation better, and

will also reinforce that YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!! This

was an amazing revelation for me, and it helps a lot

-- as you have already discovered.

It sounds like you are lost in some seriously heavy

FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and your nada knows it.

So many of us KOs feel " responsible " for our nada (and

everyone else, for that matter) -- we have to " do the

right thing/act the right way/say the right things " .

This is a seriously distorted form of thinking that

results from the nada-inflicted emotional abuse -- and

allows us to be easily manipulated. It is very

important for you to realize that this way of thinking

is NOT NORMAL!!!! You do NOT have to feel this way.

The only person you are responsible for is YOURSELF!

You are especially NOT responsible for the feelings of

other people (it's pretty hard for KOs to wrap their

brains around that one).

Unfortunately, understanding these concepts and

applying them to your life are two completely

different things. We talk a lot on this list about

the two stages you have to go through -- (1) cognitive

understanding (at an intellectual level) and (2)

emotional understanding (reprogramming/re-parenting

yourself and your actions and reactions). Cognitive

understanding usually comes quickly and fairly easily.

Most people on this list get there fast. It's the

emotional re-programming that is long and arduous. It

can be really frustrating when you have a complete

intellectual understanding of the situation you're in

and how you're being manipulated, yet you respond

emotionally just like you always have. I'm not all the

way there yet, but with time I have noticed an

improvement at least. It takes a while for that

cognitive understanding to trickle down into our

hearts. So try not to get frustrated -- you will make

progress, however slowly!

<<

She cried and cried telling me how much she loved me,

how I was all she ever loved, that she forgave me for

all the wrong things I have done...

>>

BPs know that " love " is a strong chain to yank. KOs

feel very unloved, so telling us that we're loved

(whether it's backed by actions or not) can sometimes

make us pretty malleable. Unfortunately, the love of

a BP is usually conditional -- they expect something

in return ( " I will love you if you let me live with

you " ). I also find it interesting that she has

" forgiven " you for all the wrong things you have done.

Somehow I have the feeling that you don't need to be

forgiven for anything.

<<

she was begining to threaten suicide as her only other

choice other than my help.

>>

All suicide threats should be taken seriously, but you

need to understand that these threats are commonly

used by BPs to manipulate the people around them. She

wants you to believe (and may believe herself) that

you are the only person that can help her. This is

not true. She can help herself.

<<

I am 32 and was diagnosed with severe

depression/anzxiety disorder 8 yrs ago.

>>

Many KOs suffer from physical and emotional problems

-- with good reason. We have suffered emotional abuse

since we were children. We learned to repress and

ignore our feelings -- resulting in a festering wound

that manifests itself emotionally and/or physically.

I have struggled with depression and " unexplained "

fatigue for almost 15 years (I am almost 30). I am a

firm believer that I must STOP repressing my feelings

and learn how to feel, express and accept them (easier

said than done!). I think this will do something that

all the medication in the world could not accomplish

for me -- give me my life back. We have to deal with

our past, and change the way we handle the present, in

order to live happy, healthy lives.

<<

I pray that I will find the strength to help us both

now that she is here (cant kick her out... LOL)

>>

Why do you need the strength to help both of you? You

are only responsible for yourself. I can certainly

understand that this is a very difficult situation. I

think KOs continuously put themselves into bad

situations like this because we hold onto the hope

that we can have a " normal " family if we just do the

right thing. Unfortunately, our nada-distorted

understanding of " the right thing " usually involves

letting nada stomp all over us. In a normal, loving

family, I could see a daughter allowing her mother to

move in FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME until she is able

to get back on her feet. There are two things that

are different about your situtation -- (1) you do not

have a normal, loving family and (2) you made no

mention of a time limit on your mother's stay, so I'm

assuming it has not been discussed (and even if it

has, you can never believe what a BP says anyway --

they just tell you what you want to hear, whether they

mean it or not). Now, hold onto your hat, YOU DO NOT

HAVE TO LET YOUR MOTHER LIVE WITH YOU. She is a grown

woman, she is capable of caring for herself (whether

she believes it or not), and she is NOT your

responsibility. You do NOT have to feel guilty

because you don't want her to live with you. It

definitely would have been easier if you had never

asked her to move in in the first place, but you can

still make her leave if you want to. And you are not

required to make her understand why. Just tell her

she has to find her own place to live, tell her to go

to a domestic violence shelter where she can get

professional help. When she throws a temper tantrum

and demands an explanation, just repeat that she has

to find her own place. Do not allow her to suck you

into an argument, because she'll twist everything

around and she'll win. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU!!!!!

<<

When I was young I would just apologize to keep the

peace (dispite the abuse), I realise as an adult that

I cant do that anymore, but I dont know where to

start.

>>

This is a very difficult thing. You no longer want to

apologize and placate her just to keep the peace

because it feels like you're selling your soul (I

know, I struggle with the same thing). Yet, you know

no other way of doing things (read SWOE, it has

suggestions; also, as you heal, it will become easier

and more natural to do what's best for you). And

believe me, nada doesn't want it any other way. Many

KOs are unable to maintain their own identity as well

as a relationship with nada. There are quite a few

people on this list who have no (or very limited

contact) with nada.

Only you can know what is best for you, but I would

strongly encourage you to consider asking her to

leave. I think it will be very difficult for you to

heal under these circumstances, and I doubt very much

that you will be happy with her living with you. Why

would you do something that makes you unhappy? There

is no universal law that says you have to do this.

Think about it, and keep writing in.

Hugs,

Anon

__________________________________________________

January 16, 2001

Michele,

Oh boy, you've got yourself into quite a pickle! Your

story just made my heart break, and I have lots of

things to say (surprise, surprise -- I'm not exactly

famous for my brevity!).

First, make sure you read the e-mail that was sent to

you when you joined this list -- it has lots of good

info, along with explanations of all the abbreviations

we use, etc.

Second, if you haven't done so already, get your hands

on some books and start reading. Start with Stop

Walking on Eggshells (SWOE -- our list bible), and I

would also strongly recommend a book(s) on

codependancy. Most KOs (kids of BPs) are codependent

-- we learned at an early age that the key to survival

was to ignore our own needs and wants in favor of

nada's/fada's. I'm reading Codepedent No More by

Melody Beattie -- it's mostly geared towards people in

chosen relationships with alcoholics, but a lot of it

can be transferred to the nada situation. Reading

will help you understand your situation better, and

will also reinforce that YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!! This

was an amazing revelation for me, and it helps a lot

-- as you have already discovered.

It sounds like you are lost in some seriously heavy

FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and your nada knows it.

So many of us KOs feel " responsible " for our nada (and

everyone else, for that matter) -- we have to " do the

right thing/act the right way/say the right things " .

This is a seriously distorted form of thinking that

results from the nada-inflicted emotional abuse -- and

allows us to be easily manipulated. It is very

important for you to realize that this way of thinking

is NOT NORMAL!!!! You do NOT have to feel this way.

The only person you are responsible for is YOURSELF!

You are especially NOT responsible for the feelings of

other people (it's pretty hard for KOs to wrap their

brains around that one).

Unfortunately, understanding these concepts and

applying them to your life are two completely

different things. We talk a lot on this list about

the two stages you have to go through -- (1) cognitive

understanding (at an intellectual level) and (2)

emotional understanding (reprogramming/re-parenting

yourself and your actions and reactions). Cognitive

understanding usually comes quickly and fairly easily.

Most people on this list get there fast. It's the

emotional re-programming that is long and arduous. It

can be really frustrating when you have a complete

intellectual understanding of the situation you're in

and how you're being manipulated, yet you respond

emotionally just like you always have. I'm not all the

way there yet, but with time I have noticed an

improvement at least. It takes a while for that

cognitive understanding to trickle down into our

hearts. So try not to get frustrated -- you will make

progress, however slowly!

<<

She cried and cried telling me how much she loved me,

how I was all she ever loved, that she forgave me for

all the wrong things I have done...

>>

BPs know that " love " is a strong chain to yank. KOs

feel very unloved, so telling us that we're loved

(whether it's backed by actions or not) can sometimes

make us pretty malleable. Unfortunately, the love of

a BP is usually conditional -- they expect something

in return ( " I will love you if you let me live with

you " ). I also find it interesting that she has

" forgiven " you for all the wrong things you have done.

Somehow I have the feeling that you don't need to be

forgiven for anything.

<<

she was begining to threaten suicide as her only other

choice other than my help.

>>

All suicide threats should be taken seriously, but you

need to understand that these threats are commonly

used by BPs to manipulate the people around them. She

wants you to believe (and may believe herself) that

you are the only person that can help her. This is

not true. She can help herself.

<<

I am 32 and was diagnosed with severe

depression/anzxiety disorder 8 yrs ago.

>>

Many KOs suffer from physical and emotional problems

-- with good reason. We have suffered emotional abuse

since we were children. We learned to repress and

ignore our feelings -- resulting in a festering wound

that manifests itself emotionally and/or physically.

I have struggled with depression and " unexplained "

fatigue for almost 15 years (I am almost 30). I am a

firm believer that I must STOP repressing my feelings

and learn how to feel, express and accept them (easier

said than done!). I think this will do something that

all the medication in the world could not accomplish

for me -- give me my life back. We have to deal with

our past, and change the way we handle the present, in

order to live happy, healthy lives.

<<

I pray that I will find the strength to help us both

now that she is here (cant kick her out... LOL)

>>

Why do you need the strength to help both of you? You

are only responsible for yourself. I can certainly

understand that this is a very difficult situation. I

think KOs continuously put themselves into bad

situations like this because we hold onto the hope

that we can have a " normal " family if we just do the

right thing. Unfortunately, our nada-distorted

understanding of " the right thing " usually involves

letting nada stomp all over us. In a normal, loving

family, I could see a daughter allowing her mother to

move in FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME until she is able

to get back on her feet. There are two things that

are different about your situtation -- (1) you do not

have a normal, loving family and (2) you made no

mention of a time limit on your mother's stay, so I'm

assuming it has not been discussed (and even if it

has, you can never believe what a BP says anyway --

they just tell you what you want to hear, whether they

mean it or not). Now, hold onto your hat, YOU DO NOT

HAVE TO LET YOUR MOTHER LIVE WITH YOU. She is a grown

woman, she is capable of caring for herself (whether

she believes it or not), and she is NOT your

responsibility. You do NOT have to feel guilty

because you don't want her to live with you. It

definitely would have been easier if you had never

asked her to move in in the first place, but you can

still make her leave if you want to. And you are not

required to make her understand why. Just tell her

she has to find her own place to live, tell her to go

to a domestic violence shelter where she can get

professional help. When she throws a temper tantrum

and demands an explanation, just repeat that she has

to find her own place. Do not allow her to suck you

into an argument, because she'll twist everything

around and she'll win. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU!!!!!

<<

When I was young I would just apologize to keep the

peace (dispite the abuse), I realise as an adult that

I cant do that anymore, but I dont know where to

start.

>>

This is a very difficult thing. You no longer want to

apologize and placate her just to keep the peace

because it feels like you're selling your soul (I

know, I struggle with the same thing). Yet, you know

no other way of doing things (read SWOE, it has

suggestions; also, as you heal, it will become easier

and more natural to do what's best for you). And

believe me, nada doesn't want it any other way. Many

KOs are unable to maintain their own identity as well

as a relationship with nada. There are quite a few

people on this list who have no (or very limited

contact) with nada.

Only you can know what is best for you, but I would

strongly encourage you to consider asking her to

leave. I think it will be very difficult for you to

heal under these circumstances, and I doubt very much

that you will be happy with her living with you. Why

would you do something that makes you unhappy? There

is no universal law that says you have to do this.

Think about it, and keep writing in.

Hugs,

Anon

__________________________________________________

May 16, 2001

Hi , and welcome to ModOasis!

I spent some time last night writing a reply to this, but it got

eaten when my computer crashed. So, I'm just going to start

over!

<<

It amazes me that so many people have experienced the same

things that I have.

>>

It is an amazing thing, isn't it? We call those " twin moments " ,

and they occur a lot around here!

<<

I'm in the process of trying to cut off ties with my parents.

>>

You'll find company here. I am still trying to maintain a

relationship with my high-functioning BP mom (especially since

her and my dad are still married), but lots of people here have

severed or severely limited contact with their BP moms/dads

( " nadas/fadas " ). Feel free to throw out questions and share

experiences about this, you'll get lots of feedback.

<<

Either that, or make them realize that they need help, which

isn't working.

>>

Unfortunately, it's impossible to make someone realize this.

Until someone WANTS to change, they're not going to; and you

can't make anyone WANT to change (except yourself!). Most BPs

are very threatened by the idea that they may be less than

perfect. BPs frequently employ black and white thinking... this

means they see themselves as either all good or all bad. So, if

they're less than perfect, that must mean they're all bad (there

are no shades of grey). Therefore, they will fight like heck if

anyone tries to imply they could stand to improve.

<<

My nada has either BPD or NPD. She has definite qualities of

both.

>>

It is not uncommon for BPs to have NPD characteristics and vice

versa.

<<

I tried to tell [my stepfather] about BPDcentral and SWOE, but

he won't admit that there's a problem, even though he's had it

worse from her than I have.

>>

This is not unusual. Again, you cannot make anyone change. I

think you did the right thing by making the information

available to him, but what he chooses to do with it is up to

him. This can be difficult to come to terms with. My dad will

admit that my mom has problems, and " maybe " has BPD, but he

still makes excuses for her behavior, and ends up hurting me to

make things easier for them. I don't know how long your mother

and stepfather have been married, but he probably finds it too

threatening to think about leaving her, or trying to change the

relationship. Therefore, it's easier (for him) to stay in

denial -- even if it means suffering.

<<

After one of her rages right before Christmas, I told them that

I wasn't going to pretend that everything was okay anymore.

>>

Good for you! You set a powerful boundary, and this can be a

really difficult thing for KOs (kids of BPs). This is a

fantastic first step.

<<

Her rages and abuse were a pattern of behavior, and, in the

past, my letting things go only encouraged it.

More good stuff... it takes many KOs a while to admit to

themselves that what they suffered was indeed abuse. It's good

that you recognize this. And I agree that by letting things go

(i.e., not setting a boundary) you were giving her the message

that you would tolerate her behavior. Therefore, she had no

reason to change, and would continue to treat you badly. Well,

you've taken some steps to put a stop to that now!

<<

Of course, when she asked for examples of when she had done

these things before, I gave her plenty, but I was " mistaken " .

Those things never happened.

>>

More classic BPD stuff! BPs will go to great lengths to protect

their reality (i.e., their image of being " perfect " ). If this

means distorting things, or outright lying, then that's what

they will do. If they don't want to hear what you have to say,

then they are not going to hear it. Most of us have found that

being logical and rational with our nadas/fadas is typically a

waste of time. The best course of action here is to hold fast

to your boundaries, clearly state your needs/wants, and don't

worry about justifying them. You are not in a court of law, and

you don't need irrefutable " proof " that it's okay to feel the

way you do. This can be hard to do, but once you start

implementing it you will feel a huge sense of relief at not

feeling like you have to constantly defend yourself. " This is

what I want, and I don't have to explain myself any further. "

<<

The reason they called was because I didn't send her a Mother's

Day card. My stepfather called, crying, asking how could I do

this to them.

>>

This is heavy-duty FOG stuff. He was yanking on the FOG hooks

that they implant deep inside us when we're little. The good

news is, we have a FOG-hook removal program here! It's not

always easy, but if you're feeling lost in the FOG, let us know

and we will help disentangle the hooks and guide you out (it's

usually much easier for those not directly surrounded by the FOG

to see what's going on and give some good feedback).

Sending cards, especially mother's day cards, has been a topic

of discussion many times here. None of us like to do it; none

of us feels like we have a real mother (or father, as the case

may be). If you don't want to send a card, then don't send

one... especially if you're trying to sever ties. It's

ridiculous that they're content to let 5 months pass with no

contact or relationship, but get pissed when you don't send a

mother's day card! In fact, I would guess that they're really

angry about your boundary-setting, but chose this outlet to

express it. So, you don't have to feel guilty for not sending a

card -- you were being true to your Self, and one should NEVER

feel guilty for doing that (oops, I used the dreaded " should "

word -- we try to avoid that here .

<<

It's very exasperating, because how can you prove to anyone that

they need help when every example you give, they deny.

>>

Once again, they're not going to listen to you unless THEY want

to change, and it sounds like they don't. It is not your job to

change them, or even prove to them they need to change. It is

your job to take care of your SELF. Us KOs never learned how to

do this -- we were taught that our self came last, or never.

Now is the time to put a stop to that. Put your Self first...

learn how to love, treasure, and take care of your Self.

<<

He kept telling me how miserable they are and that I just need

to let go.

>>

Yes, they are very unhappy that you are rocking the boat. You

are violating the status quo, and going against everything they

taught you. Notice the FOG component -- you are " making " them

miserable. You are doing the right thing, but it is going to

make them unhappy.

Telling you to " let go " really gets my goat. I've heard this

one from my dad too... " you need to let go of the past and

heal... holding on to this anger is unhealthy " etc., etc., until

I want to barf. Even assuming that my parents changed and

became " perfect " parents overnight, it would be exceedingly

difficult for me to just " let go " of what happened in my past.

I would need to " work through " it. The fact of the matter,

though, is they haven't changed, so how can I " let go " of

something when it continues to happen over and over again!

AAARRRGGGHH! Suffice to say, I feel your pain on this one.

<<

I'm having a lot of problems dealing with the guilt of making

them unhappy. I know that it's part of the FOG thing, but it

still doesn't make it any easier. I know that if I go back

there, I'll lose my mind. Does anyone have any suggestions on

how to deal with the guilt?

>>

You are not " making " them unhappy. If they acted like loving,

caring parents, this would not be happening. Do not feel like

you have to shoulder THEIR responsibility for the situation

they're in. That's what they're trying to get you to do, but

it's NOT your responsibilty.

If going back there means you'll lose your mind, then the best

thing for YOU is to not go back there. This gets back to that

learning to love and treasure your Self. Once you start

learning how to do that, it becomes natural to put your

needs/wants first, and then the guilt thing starts to dissipate.

So, the main points are:

1) Don't feel guilt over something you didn't do (e.g., you are

not making your parents unhappy... they are adults, not helpless

victims... they bear responsibility for the position they are

in.)

2) Don't feel guilt over doing things that make you happy.

Well, this was a little longer than I planned (I'm not known for

brevity!), but I hope it all makes sense. Put your feet up and

get comfortable... we are a friendly bunch here!

Hugs,

Anon

--- E D wrote:

> Hi everyone. I'm new to the group, but I've been

> reading over past messages. It amazes me that so many

> people have experienced the same things that I have.

> I'm in the process of trying to cut off ties with my

> parents. Either that, or make them realize that they

> need help, which isn't working.

> My nada has either BPD or NPD. She has definite

> qualities of both. My stepfather is co-dependent.

> It's almost like he thrives off her illness. I tried

> to tell him about BPDcentral and SWOE, but he won't

> admit that there's a problem, even though he's had it

> worse from her than I have.

> After one of her rages right before Christmas, I told

> them that I wasn't going to pretend that everything

> was okay anymore. Her rages and abuse were a pattern

> of behavior, and, in the past, my letting things go

> only encouraged it. Of course, when she asked for

> examples of when she had done these things before, I

> gave her plenty, but I was " mistaken " . Those things

> never happened. This is one of the things that is

> absolutely infuriating about dealing with her. My

> stepfather only agrees with her, telling her that

> she's a wonderful mother and he could never see her

> doing those things.

> I hadn't talked to them for about 5 months, which was

> the most peaceful and relaxing time of my life, until

> this past weekend. The reason they called was because

> I didn't send her a Mother's Day card. My stepfather

> called, crying, asking how could I do this to them.

> Not that either one of them will admit that they've

> ever done anything to me. It's very exasperating,

> because how can you prove to anyone that they need

> help when every example you give, they deny. He kept

> telling me how miserable they are and that I just need

> to let go.

> I'm having a lot of problems dealing with the guilt of

> making them unhappy. I know that it's part of the FOG

> thing, but it still doesn't make it any easier. I

> know that if I go back there, I'll lose my mind. Does

> anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with the

> guilt?

> Thanks,

>

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May 16, 2001