Re: EN>IT cardiology - a wise solution

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Vera.

This is a very wise solution.

Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the phrase

had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians with a

different point of view " or something like that would have been much

better.

Ursula

----------

<< the name Gestapo has upset >> obvioulsy!!!

in my opinion this is a very poor choice for meaning " those that monitor

fanatically what others are doing and want only their ideas to prevail " . I

would NOT use the word in a translation for Europe, please. In Italian I

would say: I medici di opinione diversa - and leave out the sarcasm.

Vera

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Vera.

This is a very wise solution.

Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the phrase

had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians with a

different point of view " or something like that would have been much

better.

Ursula

----------

<< the name Gestapo has upset >> obvioulsy!!!

in my opinion this is a very poor choice for meaning " those that monitor

fanatically what others are doing and want only their ideas to prevail " . I

would NOT use the word in a translation for Europe, please. In Italian I

would say: I medici di opinione diversa - and leave out the sarcasm.

Vera

[Guest guest]

Can't help but comment on this one, once I got alerted to it...

> Thanks, Vera.

> This is a very wise solution.

> Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the

> phrase had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians

> with a different point of view " or something like that would have been

> much better. Ursula

>

I disagree - based on even the short included in her original

query I feel that the text was not " otherwise professional " , but

written in a ranting style that suggests that the author well knows

what Gestapo means - perhaps the author doesn't understand that

this kind of usage is totally inappropriate, but that should be

pointed out in a translator's note. I don't think it is the job of a

translator to politically sanitize a text in the translation. I would

leave it as is and add a comment regarding the possible/likely

perception of this usage in the target audience.

If this text, e. g., is translated because the author has been

accused of inflammatory rhethoric and the client asking for the

translation doesn't know English well enough to judge the text in its

original version, replacing the term Gestapo with a much preferable

phrase would do a disservice to everyone involved, except maybe

the author.

Just my 2 cents,

Ulrike

----------------------------------------

Dr. Ulrike Walter

Science Translation, Writing & Consulting Services

http://www.DrUlrikeWalter.com

Phone (USA) --- Fax (USA)

938 The Alameda, Berkeley, CA 94707, USA

[Guest guest]

Can't help but comment on this one, once I got alerted to it...

> Thanks, Vera.

> This is a very wise solution.

> Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the

> phrase had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians

> with a different point of view " or something like that would have been

> much better. Ursula

>

I disagree - based on even the short included in her original

query I feel that the text was not " otherwise professional " , but

written in a ranting style that suggests that the author well knows

what Gestapo means - perhaps the author doesn't understand that

this kind of usage is totally inappropriate, but that should be

pointed out in a translator's note. I don't think it is the job of a

translator to politically sanitize a text in the translation. I would

leave it as is and add a comment regarding the possible/likely

perception of this usage in the target audience.

If this text, e. g., is translated because the author has been

accused of inflammatory rhethoric and the client asking for the

translation doesn't know English well enough to judge the text in its

original version, replacing the term Gestapo with a much preferable

phrase would do a disservice to everyone involved, except maybe

the author.

Just my 2 cents,

Ulrike

----------------------------------------

Dr. Ulrike Walter

Science Translation, Writing & Consulting Services

http://www.DrUlrikeWalter.com

Phone (USA) --- Fax (USA)

938 The Alameda, Berkeley, CA 94707, USA

[Guest guest]

Hallo Ulrike:

yes and no. I admit didn't go back the read the original (un/professional)

text :-)

It really depends on the situation. If the entire text was in a ranting

style, ... yes. If it was more sloppiness than intention, I think a more

neutral translation would be appropriate.

Uschi

-----Original Message-----

Can't help but comment on this one, once I got alerted to it...

> Thanks, Vera.

> This is a very wise solution.

> Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the

> phrase had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians

> with a different point of view " or something like that would have been

> much better. Ursula

>

I disagree - based on even the short included in her original

query I feel that the text was not " otherwise professional " , but

written in a ranting style that suggests that the author well knows

what Gestapo means - perhaps the author doesn't understand that

this kind of usage is totally inappropriate, but that should be

pointed out in a translator's note. I don't think it is the job of a

translator to politically sanitize a text in the translation. I would

leave it as is and add a comment regarding the possible/likely

perception of this usage in the target audience.

If this text, e. g., is translated because the author has been

accused of inflammatory rhethoric and the client asking for the

translation doesn't know English well enough to judge the text in its

original version, replacing the term Gestapo with a much preferable

phrase would do a disservice to everyone involved, except maybe

the author.

Just my 2 cents,

Ulrike

[Guest guest]

Hallo Ulrike:

yes and no. I admit didn't go back the read the original (un/professional)

text :-)

It really depends on the situation. If the entire text was in a ranting

style, ... yes. If it was more sloppiness than intention, I think a more

neutral translation would be appropriate.

Uschi

-----Original Message-----

Can't help but comment on this one, once I got alerted to it...

> Thanks, Vera.

> This is a very wise solution.

> Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the

> phrase had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians

> with a different point of view " or something like that would have been

> much better. Ursula

>

I disagree - based on even the short included in her original

query I feel that the text was not " otherwise professional " , but

written in a ranting style that suggests that the author well knows

what Gestapo means - perhaps the author doesn't understand that

this kind of usage is totally inappropriate, but that should be

pointed out in a translator's note. I don't think it is the job of a

translator to politically sanitize a text in the translation. I would

leave it as is and add a comment regarding the possible/likely

perception of this usage in the target audience.

If this text, e. g., is translated because the author has been

accused of inflammatory rhethoric and the client asking for the

translation doesn't know English well enough to judge the text in its

original version, replacing the term Gestapo with a much preferable

phrase would do a disservice to everyone involved, except maybe

the author.

Just my 2 cents,

Ulrike

[Guest guest]

Well, I think the implication is more than other physicians with different

viewpoints. The point is that these other physicians are the ones with the

power to dictate current treatment philosophy. The term Gestapo may be

inflammatory, but it clearly indicates the authors feeling about the medical

" establishment. "

Sharon

Ursula Vielkind wrote:

> Thanks, Vera.

> This is a very wise solution.

> Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the phrase

> had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians with a

> different point of view " or something like that would have been much

> better.

> Ursula

>

> ----------

> << the name Gestapo has upset >> obvioulsy!!!

> in my opinion this is a very poor choice for meaning " those that monitor

> fanatically what others are doing and want only their ideas to prevail " . I

>

> would NOT use the word in a translation for Europe, please. In Italian I

> would say: I medici di opinione diversa - and leave out the sarcasm.

>

> Vera

>

>

> URL: www./group/medical_translation

>

> To unsubscribe, please send an *empty* message to

> medical_translation-UNSUBSCRIBEegroups

[Guest guest]

Well, I think the implication is more than other physicians with different

viewpoints. The point is that these other physicians are the ones with the

power to dictate current treatment philosophy. The term Gestapo may be

inflammatory, but it clearly indicates the authors feeling about the medical

" establishment. "

Sharon

Ursula Vielkind wrote:

> Thanks, Vera.

> This is a very wise solution.

> Apart from all the associations that the word " Gestapo " creates, the phrase

> had nothing to do in an otherwise professional text. " Physicians with a

> different point of view " or something like that would have been much

> better.

> Ursula

>

> ----------

> << the name Gestapo has upset >> obvioulsy!!!

> in my opinion this is a very poor choice for meaning " those that monitor

> fanatically what others are doing and want only their ideas to prevail " . I

>

> would NOT use the word in a translation for Europe, please. In Italian I

> would say: I medici di opinione diversa - and leave out the sarcasm.

>

> Vera

>

>

> URL: www./group/medical_translation

>

> To unsubscribe, please send an *empty* message to

> medical_translation-UNSUBSCRIBEegroups

[Guest guest]

Hallo Uschi,

> yes and no. I admit didn't go back the read the original (un/professional)

> text :-) It really depends on the situation. If the entire text was in a

> ranting style, ... yes. If it was more sloppiness than intention, I think

> a more neutral translation would be appropriate.

Perhaps - but in any case, such a major deviation from the original

needs to be commented on and/or confirmed with the client :-)

Another 2 cents

Ulrike

----------------------------------------

Dr. Ulrike Walter

Science Translation, Writing & Consulting Services

http://www.DrUlrikeWalter.com

Phone (USA) --- Fax (USA)

938 The Alameda, Berkeley, CA 94707, USA

[Guest guest]

Hallo Uschi,

> yes and no. I admit didn't go back the read the original (un/professional)

> text :-) It really depends on the situation. If the entire text was in a

> ranting style, ... yes. If it was more sloppiness than intention, I think

> a more neutral translation would be appropriate.

Perhaps - but in any case, such a major deviation from the original

needs to be commented on and/or confirmed with the client :-)

Another 2 cents

Ulrike

----------------------------------------

Dr. Ulrike Walter

Science Translation, Writing & Consulting Services

http://www.DrUlrikeWalter.com

Phone (USA) --- Fax (USA)

938 The Alameda, Berkeley, CA 94707, USA

[Guest guest]

On 11:20 AM 2/14/2001 -0600, grevet wrote the following:

>Well, I think the implication is more than other physicians with different

>viewpoints. The point is that these other physicians are the ones with the

>power to dictate current treatment philosophy. The term Gestapo may be

>inflammatory, but it clearly indicates the authors feeling about the medical

> " establishment. "

the problem is the cultural difference; obviously the european reaction to

the word gestapo is far more harsh than the author originally intended, and

culturally it is not acceptable in the target language without calling up

the wrong implications.

it reminds me of another word used in two cultural settings - when i was a

child, my grandfather used to call me a " little shikseh " with great

affection; i learned from my israeli colleagues that this was not a very

nice thing to say in their cultural setting, while in the US there was

nothing negtive in the baggage.

in this particular case, where gestapo clearly has a much more negative

ring to it than in its original english source, i would definitely change

the metaphor to reflect a dictator-like establishment - but get rid of the

world war II implications. interrogations and thumbscrews were not in the

author's mind when the text was written.

fwiw

susan

translators' site du jour: http://home.ncia.com/~slarsson/sitejour.html

swedish>english medicine * business * technology

mailto:slarsson@... * mailto:s_larsson@...

phone/fax: +1 cell phone: +1

laconner washington usa * bokenäs uddevalla sweden

[Guest guest]

On 11:20 AM 2/14/2001 -0600, grevet wrote the following:

>Well, I think the implication is more than other physicians with different

>viewpoints. The point is that these other physicians are the ones with the

>power to dictate current treatment philosophy. The term Gestapo may be

>inflammatory, but it clearly indicates the authors feeling about the medical

> " establishment. "

the problem is the cultural difference; obviously the european reaction to

the word gestapo is far more harsh than the author originally intended, and

culturally it is not acceptable in the target language without calling up

the wrong implications.

it reminds me of another word used in two cultural settings - when i was a

child, my grandfather used to call me a " little shikseh " with great

affection; i learned from my israeli colleagues that this was not a very

nice thing to say in their cultural setting, while in the US there was

nothing negtive in the baggage.

in this particular case, where gestapo clearly has a much more negative

ring to it than in its original english source, i would definitely change

the metaphor to reflect a dictator-like establishment - but get rid of the

world war II implications. interrogations and thumbscrews were not in the

author's mind when the text was written.

fwiw

susan

translators' site du jour: http://home.ncia.com/~slarsson/sitejour.html

swedish>english medicine * business * technology

mailto:slarsson@... * mailto:s_larsson@...

phone/fax: +1 cell phone: +1

laconner washington usa * bokenäs uddevalla sweden

[Guest guest]

susan larsson wrote:

> in this particular case, where gestapo clearly has a much more negative

> ring to it than in its original english source, i would definitely change

> the metaphor to reflect a dictator-like establishment - but get rid of the

> world war II implications. interrogations and thumbscrews were not in the

> author's mind when the text was written.

No, I certainly wasn't suggesting she should use the term gestapo. Just that the

" physicians with different opinions " doesn't convey their powerful position or

the author's manifest resentment of that position.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

susan larsson wrote:

> in this particular case, where gestapo clearly has a much more negative

> ring to it than in its original english source, i would definitely change

> the metaphor to reflect a dictator-like establishment - but get rid of the

> world war II implications. interrogations and thumbscrews were not in the

> author's mind when the text was written.

No, I certainly wasn't suggesting she should use the term gestapo. Just that the

" physicians with different opinions " doesn't convey their powerful position or

the author's manifest resentment of that position.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

On 02:31 PM 2/14/2001 -0600, grevet wrote the following:

>susan larsson wrote:

>

> > in this particular case, where gestapo clearly has a much more negative

> > ring to it than in its original english source, i would definitely change

> > the metaphor to reflect a dictator-like establishment - but get rid of the

> > world war II implications. interrogations and thumbscrews were not in the

> > author's mind when the text was written.

sharon:

>No, I certainly wasn't suggesting she should use the term gestapo. Just

>that the

> " physicians with different opinions " doesn't convey their powerful position or

>the author's manifest resentment of that position.

agreed, and i didn't mean you had. the important thing is to find another

way to express it that is not culturally offensive, but stills gets the

meaning of strictly dictated rules that are not based in anyone's reality

but their own.

imho, we are *not* forced to bring over a metaphor that delivers the wrong

message.

fwiw

susan

translators' site du jour: http://home.ncia.com/~slarsson/sitejour.html

swedish>english medicine * business * technology

mailto:slarsson@... * mailto:s_larsson@...

phone/fax: +1 cell phone: +1

laconner washington usa * bokenäs uddevalla sweden

[Guest guest]

On 02:31 PM 2/14/2001 -0600, grevet wrote the following:

>susan larsson wrote:

>

> > in this particular case, where gestapo clearly has a much more negative

> > ring to it than in its original english source, i would definitely change

> > the metaphor to reflect a dictator-like establishment - but get rid of the

> > world war II implications. interrogations and thumbscrews were not in the

> > author's mind when the text was written.

sharon:

>No, I certainly wasn't suggesting she should use the term gestapo. Just

>that the

> " physicians with different opinions " doesn't convey their powerful position or

>the author's manifest resentment of that position.

agreed, and i didn't mean you had. the important thing is to find another

way to express it that is not culturally offensive, but stills gets the

meaning of strictly dictated rules that are not based in anyone's reality

but their own.

imho, we are *not* forced to bring over a metaphor that delivers the wrong

message.

fwiw

susan

translators' site du jour: http://home.ncia.com/~slarsson/sitejour.html

swedish>english medicine * business * technology

mailto:slarsson@... * mailto:s_larsson@...

phone/fax: +1 cell phone: +1

laconner washington usa * bokenäs uddevalla sweden

[Guest guest]

susan larsson wrote:

> imho, we are *not* forced to bring over a metaphor that delivers the wrong

> message.

Absolutely. I'd call that Translation 101 ;-)

Sharon

[Guest guest]

susan larsson wrote:

> imho, we are *not* forced to bring over a metaphor that delivers the wrong

> message.

Absolutely. I'd call that Translation 101 ;-)

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Can we agree that a sensible approach would be to translate a faithful

paraphrase, such as " those who would enforce evidence-based medicine on

practitioners " , and to send a note to the client that the metaphorical

reference to the Nazi secret police has been omitted, for reasons of

cultural differences in nuance?

Coilín.

At 15:00 14-02-01 -0600, you wrote:

>susan larsson wrote:

>

> > imho, we are *not* forced to bring over a metaphor that delivers the wrong

> > message.

>

>Absolutely. I'd call that Translation 101 ;-)

>

>Sharon

Aa-Tchoo! Translations: aatchoo@...

Tsentsak Medical Translations: tsentsak@...

+45-3616 5666 / 2192 5666

[Guest guest]

Can we agree that a sensible approach would be to translate a faithful

paraphrase, such as " those who would enforce evidence-based medicine on

practitioners " , and to send a note to the client that the metaphorical

reference to the Nazi secret police has been omitted, for reasons of

cultural differences in nuance?

Coilín.

At 15:00 14-02-01 -0600, you wrote:

>susan larsson wrote:

>

> > imho, we are *not* forced to bring over a metaphor that delivers the wrong

> > message.

>

>Absolutely. I'd call that Translation 101 ;-)

>

>Sharon

Aa-Tchoo! Translations: aatchoo@...

Tsentsak Medical Translations: tsentsak@...

+45-3616 5666 / 2192 5666

[Guest guest]

susan (hi again!!) wrote:

> it reminds me of another word used in two cultural settings - when i was a

> child, my grandfather used to call me a " little shikseh " with great

> affection; i learned from my israeli colleagues that this was not a very

> nice thing to say in their cultural setting, while in the US there was

> nothing negtive in the baggage.

Bed to differ - that would only be true in a non-Jewish setting in the

US. If my Jewish family / friends called me a shikseh, I would

(albeit they'd be correct) be offended. Or worried...

>

Best,

Ulrike

----------------------------------------

Dr. Ulrike Walter

Science Translation, Writing & Consulting Services

http://www.DrUlrikeWalter.com

Phone (USA) --- Fax (USA)

938 The Alameda, Berkeley, CA 94707, USA

[Guest guest]

susan (hi again!!) wrote:

> it reminds me of another word used in two cultural settings - when i was a

> child, my grandfather used to call me a " little shikseh " with great

> affection; i learned from my israeli colleagues that this was not a very

> nice thing to say in their cultural setting, while in the US there was

> nothing negtive in the baggage.

Bed to differ - that would only be true in a non-Jewish setting in the

US. If my Jewish family / friends called me a shikseh, I would

(albeit they'd be correct) be offended. Or worried...

>

Best,

Ulrike

----------------------------------------

Dr. Ulrike Walter

Science Translation, Writing & Consulting Services

http://www.DrUlrikeWalter.com

Phone (USA) --- Fax (USA)

938 The Alameda, Berkeley, CA 94707, USA

[Guest guest]

> susan (hi again!!) wrote:

>

>

> > it reminds me of another word used in two cultural settings - when i

> > was a child, my grandfather used to call me a " little shikseh " with

> > great affection; i learned from my israeli colleagues that this was

> > not a very nice thing to say in their cultural setting, while in the

> > US there was nothing negtive in the baggage.

> Bed to differ - that would only be true in a non-Jewish setting in the

> US. If my Jewish family / friends called me a shikseh, I would (albeit

> they'd be correct) be offended. Or worried... >

not if it were your grandfather and/or was said in the affectionate

tone su described -- if it was your mother-in-law, otoh . . .

Jo Ann

Jo Ann Cahn

Traduction et Relecture Scientifiques

33 rue Réaumur 75003 PARIS

telephone 01 44 54 96 00

telecopie 01 44 54 96 01

e-mail jacahn@... jcahn@...

[Guest guest]

> susan (hi again!!) wrote:

>

>

> > it reminds me of another word used in two cultural settings - when i

> > was a child, my grandfather used to call me a " little shikseh " with

> > great affection; i learned from my israeli colleagues that this was

> > not a very nice thing to say in their cultural setting, while in the

> > US there was nothing negtive in the baggage.

> Bed to differ - that would only be true in a non-Jewish setting in the

> US. If my Jewish family / friends called me a shikseh, I would (albeit

> they'd be correct) be offended. Or worried... >

not if it were your grandfather and/or was said in the affectionate

tone su described -- if it was your mother-in-law, otoh . . .

Jo Ann

Jo Ann Cahn

Traduction et Relecture Scientifiques

33 rue Réaumur 75003 PARIS

telephone 01 44 54 96 00

telecopie 01 44 54 96 01

e-mail jacahn@... jcahn@...

[Guest guest]

Jo Ann Cahn wrote:

> > susan (hi again!!) wrote:

> > > it reminds me of another word used in two cultural settings - when i

> > > was a child, my grandfather used to call me a " little shikseh " with

> > > great affection; i learned from my israeli colleagues that this was

> > > not a very nice thing to say in their cultural setting, while in the

> > > US there was nothing negtive in the baggage.

More than just baggage. Mostly understanding what the word actually means.

(It means abomination or unclean thing.) Kind of hard to use it

affectionately once you know that.

Sharon