Guest guest Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Jeff, I'm assuming your goal for this dalmation is to promote an upright posture and promote effective weight bearing through all four legs. I have to be honest that in my experience I don't feel the PVC carts with the sling do this effectively. I wholeheartedly agree with the principle behind standers (as we call them in the human PT field). In pediatric PT I have used all different kinds of standers for all different size patients with many different diagnoses. I could not stress how importantly I value the concept of upright positioning and weight bearing in rehabilitation. However, in my experience I don't think the slings/PVC carts provide the amount of support that is indicated for these patients. I wish I had some pictures of my peds patients in standers (and I will try to get them in the new year) to show everyone exactly the amount of joint support that is offered in these devices and how effective the weight bearing is. If a dog with a cervical disc is placed in one of these devices, what often happens is that they lean on the sling since their hind and fore limb joints are not supported enough to promote effective weight bearing. They compensate abnormally to try and gain some sense of balance. They also usually hyperextend their necks in an effort to gain some sense of "staying afloat". Then I have seen the dogs become sore due to this as well as being extremely stressed out. In my experience, the weight bearing/standing goals can much more effectively be achieved with a peanut ball and two people. The peanut ball (it looks like two therapy balls together with a dip on the middle) provides a surface for the dog's chest to be supported. This is more supportive than the sling. Their limbs are then able to be placed on the floor (a good way to tell if you are using the right size ball). If the dog is too weak to support their weight, (this is when I make knee immobilizers), or if this is not an option for you, place your hands around the front of their knees to prevent knee flexion and place your thumbs under their ischial tuberosities, ulnarly deviate your hands (rotate your wrists so your pinkies turn down toward your wrist) and extend the dog's hindlimbs. The person in front can make sure the front feet are weight bearing and is able to support the dog's neck on their shoulder (if necessary or a 3rd person can be used to support the neck). I'm sorry if this sounds wordy but it is actually very simple and effective in practice. This can be done initially for 10 seconds at a time if that is all the dog will tolerate and then you can gradually build up the amount of time. Even when my neuro dogs reach the point when they can stand independently for a few minutes wihtout any support, I still use the peanut ball exercise to stand 15 - 20 minutes for muscular endurance, increased weight bearing, and increased uprigth positioning. I'm an alignment nazi and I admit it. I have an NDT background in PT and alignment governs every aspect of treatment because without good alignment you can not have the muscle activity you want. Instead you will only be getting compensations. I ask everyone that uses the PVC cart/sling to look at their patient's alignment in the sling. Is this the posture you want? If you visually could somehow block out the sling and cart in your mind, would this dog look like they were standing with in a normal position? If not, than this is not an effective treatment. If your answer is yes, than I would challenge you that they probably don't need a supportive system, because I don't think the slings provide enough support for the patients it is actually indicated for. I realize that the peanut ball exercise may take more staff but if you don't have the manpower for this I would recommend working on sphinx and tall sit positioning for upright positioning and trying weight bearing in the pool. I'm not trying to offend anyone about the PVC carts but I could not feel more strongly about my experience with them and I would feel unethical if I didn't voice my opinion regarding my experience with human standers and canine PVC carts. I couldn't feel more strongly about weight bearing, upright positioning and alignment, but I also couldn't feel more strongly about the effectiveness of treatment.The dog must be comfortable and their rehab time and money shouldn't be used on something that is not effectively addressing your rehab goal. I ask everyone who uses them to take a step back and look. And ask yourself is this really doing what I need it to? It's the first rule of NDT PT and goes back to the whole structure governs function principle. If the body is not aligned, the muscles will not work effectively. Just felt I had to add my two cents. . . Jeanine Freeberg, PT Jeff Bowra wrote: I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy. Thanks Jeff Bowra DVM Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner drjeffthespaw (DOT) ca Aldergrove Animal Hospital www.familypetdoc.com The Spaw Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation www.thespaw.ca 26841 Fraser Highway Aldergrove, BC, Canada V4W 3E4 __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Jeff, I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after " hanging " in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust. > I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy. > Thanks > > Jeff Bowra DVM > Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner > drjeff@... > Aldergrove Animal Hospital > www.familypetdoc.com > The Spaw > Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation > www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway > Aldergrove, BC, Canada > V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Hello and happy holidays!So the lesson here is that it's not the equipment (toys) but the quality of the intervention that matters? I think that we're all in agreement that regardless of our patient's level of function, that our intervention can be amazingly successful or a complete and utter failure (possibly leading to compensation, injury, backwards progress, etc) depending on how the intervention is applied. The same can be said for a high level agility competitor with a teres strain, a field trialer with a TPLO, or a tetraparetic patient. I'll agree with Jeanine and "topsvet1," but also encourage Jeff that there are ways to utilize these PVC carts appropriately, safely, and in a manner which can benefit the patient. (I think that was one of the points that Jeanine mentioned?)I have an article that gives detailed information regarding how to build such a cart, Jeff, if you're still interested. Feel free to email your fax number to me directly. (And I've used slings from Westcoast and find that they're very supportive, though some might say cumbersome with lots of straps and velcro. I think that Molift might have other slings that would work.)Amie Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach, MSPT, CCRPPresident, Animal Physical Therapy Special Interest Group, Orthopaedic Section, American Physical Therapy Associationwww.orthopt.orgInstructor, The Canine Rehabilitation InstituteWellington, Florida USAwww.caninerehabinstitute.comCEO, For Paws Rehabilitation, LLCPort Republic, land USAwww.forpawsrehabilitation.comManager, Physical Rehabilitation, The Mid-Atlantic Animal Specialty Hospital, LLCHuntingtown, land USAwww.vetmash.com Jeff,I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after "hanging" in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust.> I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy.> Thanks> > Jeff Bowra DVM> Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner> drjeff@...> Aldergrove Animal Hospital> www.familypetdoc.com> The Spaw> Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation> www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway> Aldergrove, BC, Canada> V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I see what Jeanine is saying about positioning in the PVC carts. I have used the carts with small and large dogs. I think there is an increased amount of stress on the patient that is non-ambulatory and placed in a cart, and I agree that using the therapy balls work best when just starting out to get them upright and starting to bear weight. That said, once these patients start to bear weight and are frustrated with being "down" all the time, the carts are very helpful. Our carts have wheels and the patients seem so happy with themselves when they can take a few steps, but are supported by the sling. You can watch them and see if they are attempting to motor or not. I worked with a 90# doberman that had a cervical disc and was tetraparetic. He loved being in the cart, and I do think it helped him to a faster recovery. The owners lived several hours away from the hospital, and after he started doing better, we let them take one of the carts home to use. It worked great, and gave him a little different outlook and encouraged him to move his legs, while saving my back. I could work with him better in the sling (we do not have a pool). We bought a lage and a small sling from west coast. They are very sturdy and easy to clean. Kathy Coffman, CCRT VCA/Veterinary Referral Associates 15021 Dufief Mill Road Gaithersburg, Md. 20882 (301)340-3224 kmc-3@... -------------- Original message -------------- Hello and happy holidays! So the lesson here is that it's not the equipment (toys) but the quality of the intervention that matters? I think that we're all in agreement that regardless of our patient's level of function, that our intervention can be amazingly successful or a complete and utter failure (possibly leading to compensation, injury, backwards progress, etc) depending on how the intervention is applied. The same can be said for a high level agility competitor with a teres strain, a field trialer with a TPLO, or a tetraparetic patient. I'll agree with Jeanine and "topsvet1," but also encourage Jeff that there are ways to utilize these PVC carts appropriately, safely, and in a manner which can benefit the patient. (I think that was one of the points that Jeanine mentioned?) I have an article that gives detailed information regarding how to build such a cart, Jeff, if you're still interested. Feel free to email your fax number to me directly. (And I've used slings from Westcoast and find that they're very supportive, though some might say cumbersome with lots of straps and velcro. I think that Molift might have other slings that would work.) Amie Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach, MSPT, CCRP President, Animal Physical Therapy Special Interest Group, Orthopaedic Section, American Physical Therapy Association www.orthopt.org Instructor, The Canine Rehabilitation Institute Wellington, Florida USA www.caninerehabinstitute.com CEO, For Paws Rehabilitation, LLC Port Republic, land USA www.forpawsrehabilitation.com Manager, Physical Rehabilitation, The Mid-Atlantic Animal Specialty Hospital, LLC Huntingtown, land USA www.vetmash.com Jeff,I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after "hanging" in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust.> I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy.> Thanks> > Jeff Bowra DVM> Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner> drjeff@...> Aldergrove Animal Hospital> www.familypetdoc.com> The Spaw> Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation> www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway> Aldergrove, BC, Canada> V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Hi Guys Thanks for your comments. I agree that the cart is not the only answer. This Dal is with us full time right now and he is being up and down walked and numerous exercises, estimed every day but he lies and gets bored and barks and I wanted to try something else. He can take some steps with support and I am also thinking of my staff’s backs. Happy Holidays to all! And I would appreciate the article on the construction. I know that I have it somewhere but can’t remember where! Jeff Bowra DVM Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner drjeff@... Aldergrove Animal Hospital www.familypetdoc.com The Spaw Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation www.thespaw.ca 26841 Fraser Highway Aldergrove, BC, Canada V4W 3E4 From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of kmc-3@... Sent: 21 December 2006 18:19 To: VetRehab Subject: Re: Re: PVC Cart I see what Jeanine is saying about positioning in the PVC carts. I have used the carts with small and large dogs. I think there is an increased amount of stress on the patient that is non-ambulatory and placed in a cart, and I agree that using the therapy balls work best when just starting out to get them upright and starting to bear weight. That said, once these patients start to bear weight and are frustrated with being " down " all the time, the carts are very helpful. Our carts have wheels and the patients seem so happy with themselves when they can take a few steps, but are supported by the sling. You can watch them and see if they are attempting to motor or not. I worked with a 90# doberman that had a cervical disc and was tetraparetic. He loved being in the cart, and I do think it helped him to a faster recovery. The owners lived several hours away from the hospital, and after he started doing better, we let them take one of the carts home to use. It worked great, and gave him a little different outlook and encouraged him to move his legs, while saving my back. I could work with him better in the sling (we do not have a pool). We bought a lage and a small sling from west coast. They are very sturdy and easy to clean. Kathy Coffman, CCRT VCA/Veterinary Referral Associates 15021 Dufief Mill Road Gaithersburg, Md. 20882 (301)340-3224 kmc-3@... -------------- Original message -------------- From: Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach Hello and happy holidays! So the lesson here is that it's not the equipment (toys) but the quality of the intervention that matters? I think that we're all in agreement that regardless of our patient's level of function, that our intervention can be amazingly successful or a complete and utter failure (possibly leading to compensation, injury, backwards progress, etc) depending on how the intervention is applied. The same can be said for a high level agility competitor with a teres strain, a field trialer with a TPLO, or a tetraparetic patient. I'll agree with Jeanine and " topsvet1, " but also encourage Jeff that there are ways to utilize these PVC carts appropriately, safely, and in a manner which can benefit the patient. (I think that was one of the points that Jeanine mentioned?) I have an article that gives detailed information regarding how to build such a cart, Jeff, if you're still interested. Feel free to email your fax number to me directly. (And I've used slings from Westcoast and find that they're very supportive, though some might say cumbersome with lots of straps and velcro. I think that Molift might have other slings that would work.) Amie Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach, MSPT, CCRP President, Animal Physical Therapy Special Interest Group, Orthopaedic Section, American Physical Therapy Association www.orthopt.org Instructor, The Canine Rehabilitation Institute Wellington, Florida USA www.caninerehabinstitute.com CEO, For Paws Rehabilitation, LLC Port Republic, land USA www.forpawsrehabilitation.com Manager, Physical Rehabilitation, The Mid-Atlantic Animal Specialty Hospital, LLC Huntingtown, land USA www.vetmash.com On Dec 21, 2006, at 5:54 PM, topsvet1 wrote: Jeff, I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after " hanging " in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust. > I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy. > Thanks > > Jeff Bowra DVM > Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner > drjeff@... > Aldergrove Animal Hospital > www.familypetdoc.com > The Spaw > Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation > www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway > Aldergrove, BC, Canada > V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ < SPAN class=Apple-style-span style= " FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia " >> Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Just one more 2cents Jeff... I love having these guys on a peanut roll. Easier on staff backs, dogs seem to enjoy it more than the sling... Pam Hey, If you ever want to talk about the issue of money, vs. space, vs. labor intensivity, call me at . I wrote a very lengthy answer, but it just got too long and annoying! Pam Nichols Happy Holidays!!!! -----Original Message-----From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ]On Behalf Of Jeff BowraSent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: RE: Re: PVC Cart Hi Guys Thanks for your comments. I agree that the cart is not the only answer. This Dal is with us full time right now and he is being up and down walked and numerous exercises, estimed every day but he lies and gets bored and barks and I wanted to try something else. He can take some steps with support and I am also thinking of my staff’s backs. Happy Holidays to all! And I would appreciate the article on the construction. I know that I have it somewhere but can’t remember where! Jeff Bowra DVM Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner drjeffthespaw (DOT) ca Aldergrove Animal Hospital www.familypetdoc.com The Spaw Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation www.thespaw.ca 26841 Fraser Highway Aldergrove, BC, Canada V4W 3E4 From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of kmc-3comcast (DOT) netSent: 21 December 2006 18:19To: VetRehab Subject: Re: Re: PVC Cart I see what Jeanine is saying about positioning in the PVC carts. I have used the carts with small and large dogs. I think there is an increased amount of stress on the patient that is non-ambulatory and placed in a cart, and I agree that using the therapy balls work best when just starting out to get them upright and starting to bear weight. That said, once these patients start to bear weight and are frustrated with being "down" all the time, the carts are very helpful. Our carts have wheels and the patients seem so happy with themselves when they can take a few steps, but are supported by the sling. You can watch them and see if they are attempting to motor or not. I worked with a 90# doberman that had a cervical disc and was tetraparetic. He loved being in the cart, and I do think it helped him to a faster recovery. The owners lived several hours away from the hospital, and after he started doing better, we let them take one of the carts home to use. It worked great, and gave him a little different outlook and encouraged him to move his legs, while saving my back. I could work with him better in the sling (we do not have a pool). We bought a lage and a small sling from west coast. They are very sturdy and easy to clean. Kathy Coffman, CCRT VCA/Veterinary Referral Associates 15021 Dufief Mill Road Gaithersburg, Md. 20882 (301)340-3224 kmc-3comcast (DOT) net -------------- Original message -------------- From: Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach <forpawsrehabcomcast (DOT) net> Hello and happy holidays! So the lesson here is that it's not the equipment (toys) but the quality of the intervention that matters? I think that we're all in agreement that regardless of our patient's level of function, that our intervention can be amazingly successful or a complete and utter failure (possibly leading to compensation, injury, backwards progress, etc) depending on how the intervention is applied. The same can be said for a high level agility competitor with a teres strain, a field trialer with a TPLO, or a tetraparetic patient. I'll agree with Jeanine and "topsvet1," but also encourage Jeff that there are ways to utilize these PVC carts appropriately, safely, and in a manner which can benefit the patient. (I think that was one of the points that Jeanine mentioned?) I have an article that gives detailed information regarding how to build such a cart, Jeff, if you're still interested. Feel free to email your fax number to me directly. (And I've used slings from Westcoast and find that they're very supportive, though some might say cumbersome with lots of straps and velcro. I think that Molift might have other slings that would work.) Amie Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach, MSPT, CCRP President, Animal Physical Therapy Special Interest Group, Orthopaedic Section, American Physical Therapy Association www.orthopt.org Instructor, The Canine Rehabilitation Institute Wellington, Florida USA www.caninerehabinstitute.com CEO, For Paws Rehabilitation, LLC Port Republic, land USA www.forpawsrehabilitation.com Manager, Physical Rehabilitation, The Mid-Atlantic Animal Specialty Hospital, LLC Huntingtown, land USA www.vetmash.com Jeff,I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after "hanging" in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust.> I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy.> Thanks> > Jeff Bowra DVM> Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner> drjeff@...> Aldergrove Animal Hospital> www.familypetdoc.com> The Spaw> Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation> www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway> Aldergrove, BC, Canada> V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________< SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 peanut rolls, also know as physiorolls. Best prices that I have found: http://www.allegromedical.com/gymnic-physiorolls-210908.htmlBridget McGillivray wrote: Hi Pam please forgive my ignorance, peanut roll? Is it a shaped roll that fits snug underneath the belly ? Bridget RE: Re: PVC Cart Just one more 2cents Jeff... I love having these guys on a peanut roll. Easier on staff backs, dogs seem to enjoy it more than the sling... Pam Hey, If you ever want to talk about the issue of money, vs. space, vs. labor intensivity, call me at . I wrote a very lengthy answer, but it just got too long and annoying! Pam Nichols Happy Holidays!!!! -----Original Message-----From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ]On Behalf Of Jeff BowraSent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: RE: Re: PVC Cart Hi Guys Thanks for your comments. I agree that the cart is not the only answer. This Dal is with us full time right now and he is being up and down walked and numerous exercises, estimed every day but he lies and gets bored and barks and I wanted to try something else. He can take some steps with support and I am also thinking of my staff’s backs. Happy Holidays to all! And I would appreciate the article on the construction. I know that I have it somewhere but can’t remember where! Jeff Bowra DVM Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner drjeffthespaw (DOT) ca Aldergrove Animal Hospital www.familypetdoc.com The Spaw Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation www.thespaw.ca 26841 Fraser Highway Aldergrove, BC, Canada V4W 3E4 From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of kmc-3comcast (DOT) netSent: 21 December 2006 18:19To: VetRehab Subject: Re: Re: PVC Cart I see what Jeanine is saying about positioning in the PVC carts. I have used the carts with small and large dogs. I think there is an increased amount of stress on the patient that is non-ambulatory and placed in a cart, and I agree that using the therapy balls work best when just starting out to get them upright and starting to bear weight. That said, once these patients start to bear weight and are frustrated with being "down" all the time, the carts are very helpful. Our carts have wheels and the patients seem so happy with themselves when they can take a few steps, but are supported by the sling. You can watch them and see if they are attempting to motor or not. I worked with a 90# doberman that had a cervical disc and was tetraparetic. He loved being in the cart, and I do think it helped him to a faster recovery. The owners lived several hours away from the hospital, and after he started doing better, we let them take one of the carts home to use. It worked great, and gave him a little different outlook and encouraged him to move his legs, while saving my back. I could work with him better in the sling (we do not have a pool). We bought a lage and a small sling from west coast. They are very sturdy and easy to clean. Kathy Coffman, CCRT VCA/Veterinary Referral Associates 15021 Dufief Mill Road Gaithersburg, Md. 20882 (301)340-3224 kmc-3comcast (DOT) net -------------- Original message -------------- From: Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach <forpawsrehabcomcast (DOT) net> Hello and happy holidays! So the lesson here is that it's not the equipment (toys) but the quality of the intervention that matters? I think that we're all in agreement that regardless of our patient's level of function, that our intervention can be amazingly successful or a complete and utter failure (possibly leading to compensation, injury, backwards progress, etc) depending on how the intervention is applied. The same can be said for a high level agility competitor with a teres strain, a field trialer with a TPLO, or a tetraparetic patient. I'll agree with Jeanine and "topsvet1," but also encourage Jeff that there are ways to utilize these PVC carts appropriately, safely, and in a manner which can benefit the patient. (I think that was one of the points that Jeanine mentioned?) I have an article that gives detailed information regarding how to build such a cart, Jeff, if you're still interested. Feel free to email your fax number to me directly. (And I've used slings from Westcoast and find that they're very supportive, though some might say cumbersome with lots of straps and velcro. I think that Molift might have other slings that would work.) Amie Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach, MSPT, CCRP President, Animal Physical Therapy Special Interest Group, Orthopaedic Section, American Physical Therapy Association www.orthopt.org Instructor, The Canine Rehabilitation Institute Wellington, Florida USA www.caninerehabinstitute.com CEO, For Paws Rehabilitation, LLC Port Republic, land USA www.forpawsrehabilitation.com Manager, Physical Rehabilitation, The Mid-Atlantic Animal Specialty Hospital, LLC Huntingtown, land USA www.vetmash.com Jeff,I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after "hanging" in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust.> I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy.> Thanks> > Jeff Bowra DVM> Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner> drjeff@...> Aldergrove Animal Hospital> www.familypetdoc.com> The Spaw> Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation> www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway> Aldergrove, BC, Canada> V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________< SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Hi Pam please forgive my ignorance, peanut roll? Is it a shaped roll that fits snug underneath the belly ? Bridget RE: Re: PVC Cart Just one more 2cents Jeff... I love having these guys on a peanut roll. Easier on staff backs, dogs seem to enjoy it more than the sling... Pam Hey, If you ever want to talk about the issue of money, vs. space, vs. labor intensivity, call me at . I wrote a very lengthy answer, but it just got too long and annoying! Pam Nichols Happy Holidays!!!! -----Original Message-----From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ]On Behalf Of Jeff BowraSent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: RE: Re: PVC Cart Hi Guys Thanks for your comments. I agree that the cart is not the only answer. This Dal is with us full time right now and he is being up and down walked and numerous exercises, estimed every day but he lies and gets bored and barks and I wanted to try something else. He can take some steps with support and I am also thinking of my staff’s backs. Happy Holidays to all! And I would appreciate the article on the construction. I know that I have it somewhere but can’t remember where! Jeff Bowra DVM Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner drjeffthespaw (DOT) ca Aldergrove Animal Hospital www.familypetdoc.com The Spaw Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation www.thespaw.ca 26841 Fraser Highway Aldergrove, BC, Canada V4W 3E4 From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of kmc-3comcast (DOT) netSent: 21 December 2006 18:19To: VetRehab Subject: Re: Re: PVC Cart I see what Jeanine is saying about positioning in the PVC carts. I have used the carts with small and large dogs. I think there is an increased amount of stress on the patient that is non-ambulatory and placed in a cart, and I agree that using the therapy balls work best when just starting out to get them upright and starting to bear weight. That said, once these patients start to bear weight and are frustrated with being "down" all the time, the carts are very helpful. Our carts have wheels and the patients seem so happy with themselves when they can take a few steps, but are supported by the sling. You can watch them and see if they are attempting to motor or not. I worked with a 90# doberman that had a cervical disc and was tetraparetic. He loved being in the cart, and I do think it helped him to a faster recovery. The owners lived several hours away from the hospital, and after he started doing better, we let them take one of the carts home to use. It worked great, and gave him a little different outlook and encouraged him to move his legs, while saving my back. I could work with him better in the sling (we do not have a pool). We bought a lage and a small sling from west coast. They are very sturdy and easy to clean. Kathy Coffman, CCRT VCA/Veterinary Referral Associates 15021 Dufief Mill Road Gaithersburg, Md. 20882 (301)340-3224 kmc-3comcast (DOT) net -------------- Original message -------------- From: Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach <forpawsrehabcomcast (DOT) net> Hello and happy holidays! So the lesson here is that it's not the equipment (toys) but the quality of the intervention that matters? I think that we're all in agreement that regardless of our patient's level of function, that our intervention can be amazingly successful or a complete and utter failure (possibly leading to compensation, injury, backwards progress, etc) depending on how the intervention is applied. The same can be said for a high level agility competitor with a teres strain, a field trialer with a TPLO, or a tetraparetic patient. I'll agree with Jeanine and "topsvet1," but also encourage Jeff that there are ways to utilize these PVC carts appropriately, safely, and in a manner which can benefit the patient. (I think that was one of the points that Jeanine mentioned?) I have an article that gives detailed information regarding how to build such a cart, Jeff, if you're still interested. Feel free to email your fax number to me directly. (And I've used slings from Westcoast and find that they're very supportive, though some might say cumbersome with lots of straps and velcro. I think that Molift might have other slings that would work.) Amie Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach, MSPT, CCRP President, Animal Physical Therapy Special Interest Group, Orthopaedic Section, American Physical Therapy Association www.orthopt.org Instructor, The Canine Rehabilitation Institute Wellington, Florida USA www.caninerehabinstitute.com CEO, For Paws Rehabilitation, LLC Port Republic, land USA www.forpawsrehabilitation.com Manager, Physical Rehabilitation, The Mid-Atlantic Animal Specialty Hospital, LLC Huntingtown, land USA www.vetmash.com Jeff,I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after "hanging" in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust.> I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy.> Thanks> > Jeff Bowra DVM> Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner> drjeff@...> Aldergrove Animal Hospital> www.familypetdoc.com> The Spaw> Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation> www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway> Aldergrove, BC, Canada> V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________< SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Bridgett, did you get the answer about the Peanut Roll? It is just a physio ball shaped like a peanut! Pam -----Original Message-----From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ]On Behalf Of Bridget McGillivraySent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 7:13 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: Re: Re: PVC Cart Hi Pam please forgive my ignorance, peanut roll? Is it a shaped roll that fits snug underneath the belly ? Bridget RE: Re: PVC Cart Just one more 2cents Jeff... I love having these guys on a peanut roll. Easier on staff backs, dogs seem to enjoy it more than the sling... Pam Hey, If you ever want to talk about the issue of money, vs. space, vs. labor intensivity, call me at . I wrote a very lengthy answer, but it just got too long and annoying! Pam Nichols Happy Holidays!!!! -----Original Message-----From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ]On Behalf Of Jeff BowraSent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PMTo: VetRehab Subject: RE: Re: PVC Cart Hi Guys Thanks for your comments. I agree that the cart is not the only answer. This Dal is with us full time right now and he is being up and down walked and numerous exercises, estimed every day but he lies and gets bored and barks and I wanted to try something else. He can take some steps with support and I am also thinking of my staff’s backs. Happy Holidays to all! And I would appreciate the article on the construction. I know that I have it somewhere but can’t remember where! Jeff Bowra DVM Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner drjeffthespaw (DOT) ca Aldergrove Animal Hospital www.familypetdoc.com The Spaw Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation www.thespaw.ca 26841 Fraser Highway Aldergrove, BC, Canada V4W 3E4 From: VetRehab [mailto:VetRehab ] On Behalf Of kmc-3comcast (DOT) netSent: 21 December 2006 18:19To: VetRehab Subject: Re: Re: PVC Cart I see what Jeanine is saying about positioning in the PVC carts. I have used the carts with small and large dogs. I think there is an increased amount of stress on the patient that is non-ambulatory and placed in a cart, and I agree that using the therapy balls work best when just starting out to get them upright and starting to bear weight. That said, once these patients start to bear weight and are frustrated with being "down" all the time, the carts are very helpful. Our carts have wheels and the patients seem so happy with themselves when they can take a few steps, but are supported by the sling. You can watch them and see if they are attempting to motor or not. I worked with a 90# doberman that had a cervical disc and was tetraparetic. He loved being in the cart, and I do think it helped him to a faster recovery. The owners lived several hours away from the hospital, and after he started doing better, we let them take one of the carts home to use. It worked great, and gave him a little different outlook and encouraged him to move his legs, while saving my back. I could work with him better in the sling (we do not have a pool). We bought a lage and a small sling from west coast. They are very sturdy and easy to clean. Kathy Coffman, CCRT VCA/Veterinary Referral Associates 15021 Dufief Mill Road Gaithersburg, Md. 20882 (301)340-3224 kmc-3comcast (DOT) net -------------- Original message -------------- From: Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach <forpawsrehabcomcast (DOT) net> Hello and happy holidays! So the lesson here is that it's not the equipment (toys) but the quality of the intervention that matters? I think that we're all in agreement that regardless of our patient's level of function, that our intervention can be amazingly successful or a complete and utter failure (possibly leading to compensation, injury, backwards progress, etc) depending on how the intervention is applied. The same can be said for a high level agility competitor with a teres strain, a field trialer with a TPLO, or a tetraparetic patient. I'll agree with Jeanine and "topsvet1," but also encourage Jeff that there are ways to utilize these PVC carts appropriately, safely, and in a manner which can benefit the patient. (I think that was one of the points that Jeanine mentioned?) I have an article that gives detailed information regarding how to build such a cart, Jeff, if you're still interested. Feel free to email your fax number to me directly. (And I've used slings from Westcoast and find that they're very supportive, though some might say cumbersome with lots of straps and velcro. I think that Molift might have other slings that would work.) Amie Amie Lamoreaux Hesbach, MSPT, CCRP President, Animal Physical Therapy Special Interest Group, Orthopaedic Section, American Physical Therapy Association www.orthopt.org Instructor, The Canine Rehabilitation Institute Wellington, Florida USA www.caninerehabinstitute.com CEO, For Paws Rehabilitation, LLC Port Republic, land USA www.forpawsrehabilitation.com Manager, Physical Rehabilitation, The Mid-Atlantic Animal Specialty Hospital, LLC Huntingtown, land USA www.vetmash.com Jeff,I strongly agree with Jeanine - The patients that I have seen in the sling tend to hang after a few seconds, so receive no weightbearing input through their limbs. Because of this, there is exaggerated lateral swing for a patient with little trunk/ core stability, which makes them feel insecure. In addition, as Jeanine noted, the cervical patients have the worst time because they struggle to raise their heads when it is physically challenging to maintain this position. Trying to force an upright position without providing adequate stability will frighten and stress your patient (not to mention the owner.) All that results is frustration at best and pain the next day from overexertion. Conceptually the sling sounds great, but in practice I have found it to be even counterproductive (one of my cervical patients suffered a setback of 3 days duration after "hanging" in the sling for 10 minutes. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try some of Jeanine's techniques with your patient - they are really no more labor intensive, because it usually takes just as many people to hoist the patient into the sling as it does to stand him over a peanut ball. The patient will be MUCH more secure and you'll see more positive progress as well as confidence and trust.> I know that this has been circulated before but are there plans for a pvc cart for neuro patients. Size of pipe etc for different size dogs. I have a 55 lb dalmation post cervical disk that we would like to build one for. I know that Steve Steinberg talked about them a lot at the CRI neuro rehab course. I am taking next week off and thought that I might have time to build one!! Also sling considerations would be appreciated. Need a quad sling for this guy.> Thanks> > Jeff Bowra DVM> Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner> drjeff@...> Aldergrove Animal Hospital> www.familypetdoc.com> The Spaw> Canine Sports Medicine & Rehabilitation> www.thespaw.ca > 26841 Fraser Highway> Aldergrove, BC, Canada> V4W 3E4 > > > > > > > __________________________________________________< SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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