I hate to say this...

[Guest guest]

But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday

morning at 10:49 am.

I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping

that it would not.

Wow... he did not even last a week I think.

He probably felt out numbered. I will email him

and see if I can get a response from him on why

he left.

Ed - Owner

[Guest guest]

Ed,

He mentioned in an earlier post, that he quit the list

because of the " blanket " statements. He came to share

his experiences and his point of view, but blanket neg

statements about I think Docs and the meds.

We all knew this was going to happen. Les mentioned

it got out of hand. But that is what we all knew was

going to happen.

He was going to share what he had seen. But this list

consists of those hurt by statins so there tends to be

less then an open and sympathetic ear. It is

difficult to learn anything when we don't listen to

what is being said and just dissmiss his experiences

as brain washing from pharma companies.

His post was a few days ago. Not sure exactly.

Opportunity lost, for everyone.

Q

--- Ed & Dawn Gundy wrote:

> But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday

> morning at 10:49 am.

>

> I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping

> that it would not.

>

> Wow... he did not even last a week I think.

>

> He probably felt out numbered. I will email him

> and see if I can get a response from him on why

> he left.

>

> Ed - Owner

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I too am sorry the doc left--though i wondered if he was trying to

push his specialty niche of implanting defibrillators. and if he did

not expect strong negative responses from a group of statin injured

individuals, he is very naive.

>

> > But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday

> > morning at 10:49 am.

> >

> > I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping

> > that it would not.

> >

> > Wow... he did not even last a week I think.

> >

> > He probably felt out numbered. I will email him

> > and see if I can get a response from him on why

> > he left.

> >

> > Ed - Owner

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I think his screen name said it all... he was too sensitive...I thought

that had sounded good to begin with...but we need a doctor with

compassion...someone that will stick with us...learn something about us

and what we are going thru to feel well.... and get us safely thru

it....somebody with a little sadness and sorrow that we are all even in

this situation...dream on huh?

Anyway...update on me...the L-Glutamine I started taking has really

helped ...I am not dancing and I was was not able to fish long this

weekend but I truly am finding it easier to get up from a sitting

position and get moving...Its taken alot of that stiffness away so

walking and bending is easier...Thanks Tom...will let you know when I

am dancing!

Jan

Quinn s wrote:

Ed,

He mentioned in an earlier post, that he quit the list

because of the "blanket" statements. He came to share

his experiences and his point of view, but blanket neg

statements about I think Docs and the meds.

We all knew this was going to happen. Les mentioned

it got out of hand. But that is what we all knew was

going to happen.

He was going to share what he had seen. But this list

consists of those hurt by statins so there tends to be

less then an open and sympathetic ear. It is

difficult to learn anything when we don't listen to

what is being said and just dissmiss his experiences

as brain washing from pharma companies.

His post was a few days ago. Not sure exactly.

Opportunity lost, for everyone.

Q

--- Ed & Dawn Gundy wrote:

> But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday

> morning at 10:49 am.

>

> I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping

> that it would not.

>

> Wow... he did not even last a week I think.

>

> He probably felt out numbered. I will email him

> and see if I can get a response from him on why

> he left.

>

> Ed - Owner

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Anyone can invite any of the doctors online that they

wish to join this group.

I knew Sensitive Doc from another group and invited him.

Now he will not even respond to my email since he quit.

I was hoping that he would learn something here from

all the members who do have serious side effects. I

even asked him one time if he was taking any statins

and he told me that he did not have a cholesterol problem.

With the pharma cos. pushing for a lower number in the

cholesterol count I am surprised that he does not have

a cholesterol issue. I would think that everyone in

the country now who cannot get below 100 would have

a cholesterol issue.

He did acknowledge that all statins have side effects

but I do believe that he has closed eyes when it comes

to how RARE it is that they patients complain about

them. From the people I have met, it is more rare

to find someone who DOES NOT complain about the side

effects.

I just approved six more members this morning to join

this group and most have been feeling the side effects

and want to learn more. That is what this group is all

about. To show that there are others who have them

and that they are not alone and it is not all up in

their heads either, like the docs want to keep telling

everyone.

I was hoping that the doc would learn from this group

and show some compassion when there are complaints from

his patients because they are REAL and not something

that needs testing to determine what is the cause. We

know the cause - it is the medical community that ignores

it.

Ed - Owner

> > But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday

> > morning at 10:49 am.

> >

> > I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping

> > that it would not.

> >

> > Wow... he did not even last a week I think.

> >

> > He probably felt out numbered. I will email him

> > and see if I can get a response from him on why

> > he left.

> >

> > Ed - Owner

[Guest guest]

Jan do you mind telling me where you got yours and how much you are taking?

~Jillie~

Re: I hate to say this...

I think his screen name said it all... he was too sensitive...I thought that had sounded good to begin with...but we need a doctor with compassion...someone that will stick with us...learn something about us and what we are going thru to feel well.... and get us safely thru it....somebody with a little sadness and sorrow that we are all even in this situation...dream on huh?Anyway...update on me...the L-Glutamine I started taking has really helped ...I am not dancing and I was was not able to fish long this weekend but I truly am finding it easier to get up from a sitting position and get moving...Its taken alot of that stiffness away so walking and bending is easier...Thanks Tom...will let you know when I am dancing!JanQuinn s wrote:

Ed, He mentioned in an earlier post, that he quit the listbecause of the "blanket" statements. He came to sharehis experiences and his point of view, but blanket negstatements about I think Docs and the meds.We all knew this was going to happen. Les mentionedit got out of hand. But that is what we all knew wasgoing to happen.He was going to share what he had seen. But this listconsists of those hurt by statins so there tends to beless then an open and sympathetic ear. It isdifficult to learn anything when we don't listen towhat is being said and just dissmiss his experiencesas brain washing from pharma companies. His post was a few days ago. Not sure exactly.Opportunity lost, for everyone.Q--- Ed & Dawn Gundy wrote:> But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday > morning at 10:49 am.> > I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping> that it would not.> > Wow... he did not even last a week I think.> > He probably felt out numbered. I will email him> and see if I can get a response from him on why> he left.> > Ed - Owner> > > > __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I got them at Wal-Mart...they were very cheap...I think 2.97....that

cheap...They are 500mg tablets ...Rexall brand...I have no idea if they

are "the best" but this really is the best I have felt in a long

time...truley! In fact I really want to get off this computer and go do

something...maybe pick blueberries...I would not have said this last

week...will let you know how much I pick!

Jan

lahnie-jill wrote:

Jan do you mind

telling me where you got yours and how much you are taking?

~Jillie~

-----

Original Message -----

From:

buffum

To:

TakingLipitorAndHateIt

Sent:

Monday, August 01, 2005 9:04 AM

Subject:

Re: I hate to say this...

I think his screen name said it all... he was too sensitive...I thought

that had sounded good to begin with...but we need a doctor with

compassion...someone that will stick with us...learn something about us

and what we are going thru to feel well.... and get us safely thru

it....somebody with a little sadness and sorrow that we are all even in

this situation...dream on huh?

Anyway...update on me...the L-Glutamine I started taking has really

helped ...I am not dancing and I was was not able to fish long this

weekend but I truly am finding it easier to get up from a sitting

position and get moving...Its taken alot of that stiffness away so

walking and bending is easier...Thanks Tom...will let you know when I

am dancing!

Jan

Quinn s wrote:

Ed,

He mentioned in an earlier post, that he quit the list

because of the "blanket" statements. He came to share

his experiences and his point of view, but blanket neg

statements about I think Docs and the meds.

We all knew this was going to happen. Les mentioned

it got out of hand. But that is what we all knew was

going to happen.

He was going to share what he had seen. But this list

consists of those hurt by statins so there tends to be

less then an open and sympathetic ear. It is

difficult to learn anything when we don't listen to

what is being said and just dissmiss his experiences

as brain washing from pharma companies.

His post was a few days ago. Not sure exactly.

Opportunity lost, for everyone.

Q

--- Ed & Dawn Gundy wrote:

> But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday

> morning at 10:49 am.

>

> I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping

> that it would not.

>

> Wow... he did not even last a week I think.

>

> He probably felt out numbered. I will email him

> and see if I can get a response from him on why

> he left.

>

> Ed - Owner

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Over the past 2 yrs, since my bypass and stuff, I have come to know Doc's real well. Every word I have been told about a "drug" has been verbatim from the dispns info. The Drug Rep's sound the same...the Doc's sound the same.......just like what is written on the paper. They have no more idea what a drug does than the piece of paper. I however DO...I know what the drugs make me feel like......I know the side effects. I don't need to be told......"no..it's not from the med". I know it is. This has nothing directly to do with the post.....but sort of. Please and Thanx, BogieEd & Dawn Gundy wrote: Anyone can invite any of the doctors online that theywish to join this group.I knew Sensitive Doc from another group and invited him.Now he will not even respond to my email since he quit.I was hoping that he would learn something here fromall the members who do have serious side effects. I even asked him one time if he was taking any statinsand he told me that he did not have a cholesterol problem.With the pharma cos. pushing for a lower number in thecholesterol count I am surprised that he does not havea cholesterol issue. I would think that everyone in the country now who cannot get below 100 would have a cholesterol issue.He did acknowledge that all statins have side effectsbut I do believe that he has closed eyes when it comesto how RARE it is that they patients complain about

them. From the people I have met, it is more rareto find someone who DOES NOT complain about the sideeffects.I just approved six more members this morning to jointhis group and most have been feeling the side effectsand want to learn more. That is what this group is allabout. To show that there are others who have themand that they are not alone and it is not all up in their heads either, like the docs want to keep tellingeveryone.I was hoping that the doc would learn from this groupand show some compassion when there are complaints fromhis patients because they are REAL and not something that needs testing to determine what is the cause. Weknow the cause - it is the medical community that ignoresit.Ed - Owner> > But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday > > morning at 10:49 am.> > > > I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping> > that it would not.> > > > Wow... he did not even last a week I think.> > > > He probably felt out numbered. I will email him> > and see if I can get a response from him on

why> > he left.> > > > Ed - OwnerPlease and Thanx, Bogie__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

so are you taking 500 mg a day or more?

Great news.

~Jillie~

Re: I hate to say this...

I think his screen name said it all... he was too sensitive...I thought that had sounded good to begin with...but we need a doctor with compassion...someone that will stick with us...learn something about us and what we are going thru to feel well.... and get us safely thru it....somebody with a little sadness and sorrow that we are all even in this situation...dream on huh?Anyway...update on me...the L-Glutamine I started taking has really helped ...I am not dancing and I was was not able to fish long this weekend but I truly am finding it easier to get up from a sitting position and get moving...Its taken alot of that stiffness away so walking and bending is easier...Thanks Tom...will let you know when I am dancing!JanQuinn s wrote:

Ed, He mentioned in an earlier post, that he quit the listbecause of the "blanket" statements. He came to sharehis experiences and his point of view, but blanket negstatements about I think Docs and the meds.We all knew this was going to happen. Les mentionedit got out of hand. But that is what we all knew wasgoing to happen.He was going to share what he had seen. But this listconsists of those hurt by statins so there tends to beless then an open and sympathetic ear. It isdifficult to learn anything when we don't listen towhat is being said and just dissmiss his experiencesas brain washing from pharma companies. His post was a few days ago. Not sure exactly.Opportunity lost, for everyone.Q--- Ed & Dawn Gundy wrote:> But, our cardiologist left the group yesterday > morning at 10:49 am.> > I had a feeling that would happen, but was hoping> that it would not.> > Wow... he did not even last a week I think.> > He probably felt out numbered. I will email him> and see if I can get a response from him on why> he left.> > Ed - Owner> > > > __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I agree he should have tried to learn here. However

when you get pounded all the time about how docs are

just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say or

what is written on the PI, or that most pts that take

statins have problems and the docs just dismiss it,

and so on and so on.

Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion and

not let it get out of hand. I find it impossible to

think that it was the good Dr. that got out of hand or

out of bounds. If you beat on someone long enough

they will just leave.

Think back to your days in the navy and one guy on

board got hammered, what happened? They became

secluded. simple humman nature we all see it

everyday.

Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyone

here does not mean that he is an evil non caring

humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he was

getting hammered. Not really enough time time to get

to know the good people of this list who are

suffering.

When trying to convey a message to someone it is best

not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while you

are telling them and trying to get them to hear you.

That is exactly what happened here. Too bad really.

Q

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I feel the same.

Also, the good doc took it upon himself and wrote me privately about my hubby and answered some medical questions.....and said to ask anytime.....which I thought was really really nice.

~Jill~

Re: Re: I hate to say this...

I agree he should have tried to learn here. Howeverwhen you get pounded all the time about how docs arejust spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say orwhat is written on the PI, or that most pts that takestatins have problems and the docs just dismiss it,and so on and so on.Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion andnot let it get out of hand. I find it impossible tothink that it was the good Dr. that got out of hand orout of bounds. If you beat on someone long enoughthey will just leave. Think back to your days in the navy and one guy onboard got hammered, what happened? They becamesecluded. simple humman nature we all see iteveryday.Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyonehere does not mean that he is an evil non caringhumman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he wasgetting hammered. Not really enough time time to getto know the good people of this list who aresuffering. When trying to convey a message to someone it is bestnot to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while youare telling them and trying to get them to hear you.That is exactly what happened here. Too bad really.Q__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

So it was a response to you I read. Sounds like he is

humman after all. Sounds like you took the " time " to

listen and treat him with respect. A respect he

deserves. The man graduated from Medical school and

no doubt has saved lives. But is treated like a

visious monger here. Those who did it should be

ashamed, but they aren't.

Jill I am sorry for whatever your hubby is going

through. I am certain it is NOT this docs fault.

Therefore he should not have been treated in such a

way. We were assured that it would not get personal.

But it did.

Again a loss for all....well except for you. Good job

and good luck to you. I am certain I will be called a

problem and get tossed from this list for expressing

my views. But no one who beat on the doc will even be

spoaken to in a neg manner.

again best of luck to you and your husband.

Q

--- lahnie-jill wrote:

> I feel the same.

> Also, the good doc took it upon himself and wrote

> me privately about my hubby and answered some

> medical questions.....and said to ask

> anytime.....which I thought was really really nice.

> ~Jill~

>

> Re: Re: I hate

> to say this...

>

>

> I agree he should have tried to learn here.

> However

> when you get pounded all the time about how docs

> are

> just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say

> or

> what is written on the PI, or that most pts that

> take

> statins have problems and the docs just dismiss

> it,

> and so on and so on.

>

> Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion

> and

> not let it get out of hand. I find it impossible

> to

> think that it was the good Dr. that got out of

> hand or

> out of bounds. If you beat on someone long enough

> they will just leave.

>

> Think back to your days in the navy and one guy on

> board got hammered, what happened? They became

> secluded. simple humman nature we all see it

> everyday.

>

> Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyone

> here does not mean that he is an evil non caring

> humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he

> was

> getting hammered. Not really enough time time to

> get

> to know the good people of this list who are

> suffering.

>

> When trying to convey a message to someone it is

> best

> not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while

> you

> are telling them and trying to get them to hear

> you.

>

> That is exactly what happened here. Too bad

> really.

>

> Q

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Quinn, thanks:-)

My hubby is doing real good now....was having some weird problems which we figured were supplement related. He is touchy with drugs.....so not a surprise to have symptoms from supplements as well.

Yes, this doc was nice..he took the time to write me, which was really appreciated. He admitted he did not know the answer to what I asked. I liked that also.

At the time I was reading a post, and winced at the wording, because I felt it was..........a put-down........but it seemed no one else did...so it is good to at least know, I am not alone:-)

And....it is always easy to read something into the posts when it is not there also..because of time limitations, etc.

so maybe they were not "meant" as negative posts....but at any rate...I feel good that he was here for as long as he was.

Guess I see both sides;-(

Good luck to you too Q.

Jill

~Jillie~

Re: Re: I hate> to say this...> > > I agree he should have tried to learn here. > However> when you get pounded all the time about how docs> are> just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say> or> what is written on the PI, or that most pts that> take> statins have problems and the docs just dismiss> it,> and so on and so on.> > Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion> and> not let it get out of hand. I find it impossible> to> think that it was the good Dr. that got out of> hand or> out of bounds. If you beat on someone long enough> they will just leave. > > Think back to your days in the navy and one guy on> board got hammered, what happened? They became> secluded. simple humman nature we all see it> everyday.> > Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyone> here does not mean that he is an evil non caring> humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he> was> getting hammered. Not really enough time time to> get> to know the good people of this list who are> suffering. > > When trying to convey a message to someone it is> best> not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while> you> are telling them and trying to get them to hear> you.> > That is exactly what happened here. Too bad> really.> > Q> > > > > __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

Maybe he got the impression that most people on this

list who feel all docs are stuck in their ways and are

unwilling to listen to their pts, are drug company

flunkies and just don't really care about their pts.

Maybe he got the impression that someone

like.........hmmm say you, were " chained " in your own

" Platos cave. " You lumped him in with all the other

docs. Your only impression of him is what you read

here. You don't really know how he treats his

patients when the door closes. But you have certainly

formed an opinion of someone you don't even know. He

was here a week. You never gave him a chance. This

list as a whole never gave him a chance. Just like it

was said months ago. That is a card ever got on this

list they would be hammered.

He was hammered and disrespected. If a doc comes on

this list and does not damn all statins, all the drug

companies and the reps that sell them straight to

hell, then this list will never accept them. That is

the only thing thatr this list is willing to hear.

Anything short will not cut it.

Too bad really. I once read a quote that went

something like this..........

>

> " The future belongs to those who see possibilities

> before they become

> obvious. "

> --Unknown

The key part being able to see possibilities. You

can't see the possibilities from inside you cave with

your eyes closed to what others may have to say and

show you.

Q

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I got the impression that the doctor was of the opinion that no one on this

list could possibly have had adverse effects from statins that would require

the said statins to be stopped. He didn't stand out from the crow of doctors

that say " If you have side effects, it is because you had another problem all

along, it can't be the statin. " ly, while the guy was certainly above

the crowd in being somewhat internet savvy, he still seemed to practice the

same old assembly line medicine that doesn't required a typical doctor to

give a hoot about the patient at all. The formula seems to be " If

cholesterol is high or there are potential cardiovascular problems (as

defined by aggressive guidelines set to expand statin profits) then prescribe

statins. If there are problems, prescribe different statin. If there are

other problems, statin is not the problem, keep taking said statin and see

another specialist. " The doctor doesn't want to think and assembly line

medicine doesn't require him to. He wasn't a bad guy, he is stuck in his own

" Plato's Cave " , likes being chained there, and won't come out to play. If he

had been willing to " learn " that there were real people with real problems

that were really caused by statins, that would have been something. He then

would have had room to help someone other than in the style of assembly line

medicine.

There are few doctors that could tolerate being asked to question their

presupossitions on statins and/or even on alternatives. This list contains

the exceptions to the " statin rule " that are willing to learn and to act and

that is the opposit of your basic compliant patient. For my personal

doctors, I prefer ones that simply don't play the statistical odds with my

health and life and isn't too proud to really listen and presents options,

options, options, not rules.

--

Steve - dudescholar1@...

" The future belongs to those who see possibilities before they become

obvious. "

--Unknown

> So it was a response to you I read. Sounds like he is

> humman after all. Sounds like you took the " time " to

> listen and treat him with respect. A respect he

> deserves. The man graduated from Medical school and

> no doubt has saved lives. But is treated like a

> visious monger here. Those who did it should be

> ashamed, but they aren't.

>

> Jill I am sorry for whatever your hubby is going

> through. I am certain it is NOT this docs fault.

> Therefore he should not have been treated in such a

> way. We were assured that it would not get personal.

> But it did.

>

> Again a loss for all....well except for you. Good job

> and good luck to you. I am certain I will be called a

> problem and get tossed from this list for expressing

> my views. But no one who beat on the doc will even be

> spoaken to in a neg manner.

>

> again best of luck to you and your husband.

>

> Q

>

> --- lahnie-jill wrote:

> > I feel the same.

> > Also, the good doc took it upon himself and wrote

> > me privately about my hubby and answered some

> > medical questions.....and said to ask

> > anytime.....which I thought was really really nice.

> > ~Jill~

> >

> > Re: Re: I hate

> > to say this...

> >

> >

> > I agree he should have tried to learn here.

> > However

> > when you get pounded all the time about how docs

> > are

> > just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say

> > or

> > what is written on the PI, or that most pts that

> > take

> > statins have problems and the docs just dismiss

> > it,

> > and so on and so on.

> >

> > Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion

> > and

> > not let it get out of hand. I find it impossible

> > to

> > think that it was the good Dr. that got out of

> > hand or

> > out of bounds. If you beat on someone long enough

> > they will just leave.

> >

> > Think back to your days in the navy and one guy on

> > board got hammered, what happened? They became

> > secluded. simple humman nature we all see it

> > everyday.

> >

> > Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyone

> > here does not mean that he is an evil non caring

> > humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he

> > was

> > getting hammered. Not really enough time time to

> > get

> > to know the good people of this list who are

> > suffering.

> >

> > When trying to convey a message to someone it is

> > best

> > not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while

> > you

> > are telling them and trying to get them to hear

> > you.

> >

> > That is exactly what happened here. Too bad

> > really.

> >

> > Q

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

HDL raising supplements......

I know these have been posted before, but please again?

~Jill~

Re: Re: I hate to say this...

On Monday 01 August 2005 8:28 pm, Quinn s Opined<snipped>> Too bad really. I once read a quote that went> something like this..........>> > "The future belongs to those who see possibilities> > before they become> > obvious."> > --Unknown>> The key part being able to see possibilities. You> can't see the possibilities from inside you cave with> your eyes closed to what others may have to say and> show you.>> QI concur. My point exactly. Agreed. Exactly.I use two kinds of cholesterol lowering drugs including a statin and HDL raising supplements. Pragmatism allows one to take advantage of all possibilities maximizing the upside and minimizing the downside and to keep looking at - and for - all options.Cheers.-- Steve - dudescholar1@..."Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have your way." --e Vare

[Guest guest]

Quinn... you have forgotten one important thing

my friend.

All who are on the list have taken those possibities

and then after being prescribed the possiblities

and have complained about the side effects of these

possibilities we are ignored or bounced to another

specialist or need to take a test.

Most are now in search of other possibilities for

the ones handed to us originally are not good for

us. The pharma cos. and the drs. think of us as

the minority and therefore ignore us. I just wonder

how many of the majority just dont complain because

they think that their doctor walks on water.

Not one person has convinced me that taking a pill

to remove cholesterol is good for me. But, the

marketing with the TV commercials sure does make

you come to think that it helps. With all the studies

out now reporting that it may not even be high

cholesterol that causes heart disease, but inflamation

of the arteries instead, it sounds like we are

playing Russian roullette by taking the pills

and all it is doing is making the stockholders

of pharma cos. richer.

Tell me why MERCK will not sell their patented

statin that has CoQ10 included as a supplement?

Three guesses and the first 2 don't count.

Ed

> Maybe he got the impression that most people on this

> list who feel all docs are stuck in their ways and are

> unwilling to listen to their pts, are drug company

> flunkies and just don't really care about their pts.

>

> Maybe he got the impression that someone

> like.........hmmm say you, were " chained " in your own

> " Platos cave. " You lumped him in with all the other

> docs. Your only impression of him is what you read

> here. You don't really know how he treats his

> patients when the door closes. But you have certainly

> formed an opinion of someone you don't even know. He

> was here a week. You never gave him a chance. This

> list as a whole never gave him a chance. Just like it

> was said months ago. That is a card ever got on this

> list they would be hammered.

>

> He was hammered and disrespected. If a doc comes on

> this list and does not damn all statins, all the drug

> companies and the reps that sell them straight to

> hell, then this list will never accept them. That is

> the only thing thatr this list is willing to hear.

> Anything short will not cut it.

>

> Too bad really. I once read a quote that went

> something like this..........

> >

> > " The future belongs to those who see possibilities

> > before they become

> > obvious. "

> > --Unknown

>

> The key part being able to see possibilities. You

> can't see the possibilities from inside you cave with

> your eyes closed to what others may have to say and

> show you.

>

> Q

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

The problem with the good doctor was the way he introduced himself.

He said something to the effect of " Statin drugs are marvelous, side

effects are rare and I don't like to see statins bashed. " His mind

was already closed. He wrote me a personal email and said he was not

the kind of cardio that deals with cholestol issues, but he

was " well versed " in adverse statin effects. Hmmm.

And just because a person has been to medical school does not

impress me much, a doctor still has alot to learn after they

graduate. A doctor only earns MY respect when he demonstrates his

ability and not just because he has " Dr. " in front of his name.

What was his purpose for joining a group like this? The name of the

group says it all.(The name of the group is NOT " All doctors are

Gods, please join and allow us to suck up. " ) He should not have been

surprised. He would not have met with such direct bluntness from

many of us had he expressed a desire to add to his knowledge,

instead of closing his mind to our experiences because he

already " knew it all " . We haven't lost much with his departure. He

was not helping us with our statin issues and we need HELP!

I did answer his email (quite respectfully, by the way) to me and

encouraged him to use his knowledge to help us. I had no reply.

Ed did a fine job of moderating. Moderating does not mean stopping

the truth, even if it is unpleasant.

>

> > I feel the same.

> > Also, the good doc took it upon himself and wrote

> > me privately about my hubby and answered some

> > medical questions.....and said to ask

> > anytime.....which I thought was really really nice.

> > ~Jill~

> >

> > Re: Re: I hate

> > to say this...

> >

> >

> > I agree he should have tried to learn here.

> > However

> > when you get pounded all the time about how docs

> > are

> > just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say

> > or

> > what is written on the PI, or that most pts that

> > take

> > statins have problems and the docs just dismiss

> > it,

> > and so on and so on.

> >

> > Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion

> > and

> > not let it get out of hand. I find it impossible

> > to

> > think that it was the good Dr. that got out of

> > hand or

> > out of bounds. If you beat on someone long enough

> > they will just leave.

> >

> > Think back to your days in the navy and one guy on

> > board got hammered, what happened? They became

> > secluded. simple humman nature we all see it

> > everyday.

> >

> > Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyone

> > here does not mean that he is an evil non caring

> > humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he

> > was

> > getting hammered. Not really enough time time to

> > get

> > to know the good people of this list who are

> > suffering.

> >

> > When trying to convey a message to someone it is

> > best

> > not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while

> > you

> > are telling them and trying to get them to hear

> > you.

> >

> > That is exactly what happened here. Too bad

> > really.

> >

> > Q

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

On Monday 01 August 2005 8:28 pm, Quinn s Opined

<snipped>

> Too bad really. I once read a quote that went

> something like this..........

>

> > " The future belongs to those who see possibilities

> > before they become

> > obvious. "

> > --Unknown

>

> The key part being able to see possibilities. You

> can't see the possibilities from inside you cave with

> your eyes closed to what others may have to say and

> show you.

>

> Q

I concur. My point exactly. Agreed. Exactly.

I use two kinds of cholesterol lowering drugs including a statin and HDL

raising supplements. Pragmatism allows one to take advantage of all

possibilities maximizing the upside and minimizing the downside and to keep

looking at - and for - all options.

Cheers.

--

Steve - dudescholar1@...

" Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have your way. "

--e Vare

[Guest guest]

Dee... I was wondering if I was the only one

that picked up on his introduction when the

dr. joined. I can see now, that I was not the

only one got that impression after reading your

message.

I thought he was trying to put us all in place

and being that he was the dr. he would then

issue the " truth " . His initial message did

rub me the wrong way.

To me, when a dr. graduates from medical school

he now knows more than the average person but

he has left his brain back at school. There

is no longer the means for such people to think

on their own it seems. I have had drs. TELL ME

that what I am doing by not taking statins is

suicide ... I am still kicking and very much

alive. I do believe that I will more than likely

die from prostate cancer now as apposed to heart

disease. But, there is still the CHF thanks to

his arrogance and belief that he could walk on

water and I had no idea what I was talking about.

In my mind, cardioligists are good at keeping

you alive after an emergency. But, in order

to maintain your life's quality they have no

idea what they are talking about since they

are only verbally vomiting the garbage that

was taught to them by their pharma rep.

Believe it or not my cardiologist blessed me

with Congestive Heart Failure while I was

recovering from my bypass surgery 2 years ago.

Not going there right now... I can feel the anger

build up again.

So anyway... I have very little trust in drs.

and I can use common sense and can come up with

better conclusions than the ones I have seen

so far.

Last summer while my wife was in Florida she

was admitted into the hospital because of a

severe headache. Because she had a history

of migraines, they concluded this was another

migraine.

The pain was so severe, they put her into a

coma. She was given every med that should

have knocked the migraine dead in its tracks.

She was in the hospital for over a

week. When she was finally discharged and

she got home, we found out that she had

meningitis and NOT a migraine. I am not

a dr. but, even I could figure out that

if IMITREX will not stop the migraine it is

not a migraine headache it is something more

severe. It states this in the sheet that

comes with every prescription of IMITREX.

But, because she had a history, therefore that

is what it is! What a bunch of morons!!!!

On top of that the hospital never called me

to tell me that she was admitted. I found out

from my sister in law several hours after she

was admitted. When I called the hospital and

told the nurses station who I was all I could

ever get from them was " she is resting comfortably "

They never told me what they diagnosed her with

or anything. I have lost all respect for the

entire medical community because they just do

not listen and they do not use common sense at

all and to most we are just a number that is

on our wrist band.

And my wife is a nurse. She hates what she

sees from many doctors and how they all think

they seem to be God's themselves.

Sorry... dont mean to get on my soap box again.

Sometimes I just get so fed up with the entire

system we have. A robot could do just as well,

if not better in many cases.

Ed

> >

> > > I feel the same.

> > > Also, the good doc took it upon himself and wrote

> > > me privately about my hubby and answered some

> > > medical questions.....and said to ask

> > > anytime.....which I thought was really really nice.

> > > ~Jill~

> > >

> > > Re: Re: I hate

> > > to say this...

> > >

> > >

> > > I agree he should have tried to learn here.

> > > However

> > > when you get pounded all the time about how docs

> > > are

> > > just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say

> > > or

> > > what is written on the PI, or that most pts that

> > > take

> > > statins have problems and the docs just dismiss

> > > it,

> > > and so on and so on.

> > >

> > > Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion

> > > and

> > > not let it get out of hand. I find it impossible

> > > to

> > > think that it was the good Dr. that got out of

> > > hand or

> > > out of bounds. If you beat on someone long enough

> > > they will just leave.

> > >

> > > Think back to your days in the navy and one guy on

> > > board got hammered, what happened? They became

> > > secluded. simple humman nature we all see it

> > > everyday.

> > >

> > > Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyone

> > > here does not mean that he is an evil non caring

> > > humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he

> > > was

> > > getting hammered. Not really enough time time to

> > > get

> > > to know the good people of this list who are

> > > suffering.

> > >

> > > When trying to convey a message to someone it is

> > > best

> > > not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while

> > > you

> > > are telling them and trying to get them to hear

> > > you.

> > >

> > > That is exactly what happened here. Too bad

> > > really.

> > >

> > > Q

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

Ed.........I understand your post. I am not sure how

it relates to the post attached to it about the good

doc feeling many on this list did not give him a

chance and peppered him with blanket statments about

all docs. That was the point of my post. Ths point

of your post is well understood, but I don't see the

relevence to attacking the good doc.

Q

--- Ed & Dawn Gundy wrote:

>

> Quinn... you have forgotten one important thing

> my friend.

>

> All who are on the list have taken those possibities

> and then after being prescribed the possiblities

> and have complained about the side effects of these

> possibilities we are ignored or bounced to another

> specialist or need to take a test.

>

> Most are now in search of other possibilities for

> the ones handed to us originally are not good for

> us. The pharma cos. and the drs. think of us as

> the minority and therefore ignore us. I just wonder

> how many of the majority just dont complain because

> they think that their doctor walks on water.

>

> Not one person has convinced me that taking a pill

> to remove cholesterol is good for me. But, the

> marketing with the TV commercials sure does make

> you come to think that it helps. With all the

> studies

> out now reporting that it may not even be high

> cholesterol that causes heart disease, but

> inflamation

> of the arteries instead, it sounds like we are

> playing Russian roullette by taking the pills

> and all it is doing is making the stockholders

> of pharma cos. richer.

>

> Tell me why MERCK will not sell their patented

> statin that has CoQ10 included as a supplement?

>

> Three guesses and the first 2 don't count.

>

> Ed

>

>

>

>

> > Maybe he got the impression that most people on

> this

> > list who feel all docs are stuck in their ways and

> are

> > unwilling to listen to their pts, are drug company

> > flunkies and just don't really care about their

> pts.

> >

> > Maybe he got the impression that someone

> > like.........hmmm say you, were " chained " in your

> own

> > " Platos cave. " You lumped him in with all the

> other

> > docs. Your only impression of him is what you

> read

> > here. You don't really know how he treats his

> > patients when the door closes. But you have

> certainly

> > formed an opinion of someone you don't even know.

> He

> > was here a week. You never gave him a chance.

> This

> > list as a whole never gave him a chance. Just

> like it

> > was said months ago. That is a card ever got on

> this

> > list they would be hammered.

> >

> > He was hammered and disrespected. If a doc comes

> on

> > this list and does not damn all statins, all the

> drug

> > companies and the reps that sell them straight to

> > hell, then this list will never accept them. That

> is

> > the only thing thatr this list is willing to hear.

>

> > Anything short will not cut it.

> >

> > Too bad really. I once read a quote that went

> > something like this..........

> > >

> > > " The future belongs to those who see

> possibilities

> > > before they become

> > > obvious. "

> > > --Unknown

> >

> > The key part being able to see possibilities. You

> > can't see the possibilities from inside you cave

> with

> > your eyes closed to what others may have to say

> and

> > show you.

> >

> > Q

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Ed,

I think those of us who have seen some major screw ups by doctors

are a tad bit jaded by the experiences. We too, have had a huge list

of " unbelievable " stupid, inexcusable " mistakes " made by doctors

that have caused suffering, disability and death in my family. We no

longer leave any family member unattended in a hospital even for

minor problems.

When I developed diabetes 9 years ago, I saw no less than 6 doctors

for related problems. I was having muscle cramps so bad in my rib

cage that I went to ER. (Cramps related to high blood sugar can

break bones.) To make a long story short, I ended up DXing myself

with testing supplies from Wal-Mart. When I called the doctor to

make an appointment, I told them I had diabetes, and the nurse

said " You don't have diabetes until WE say you have diabetes " . Uh,

yeah, ok.

My mother just narrowly escaped death in June because a PA

(Physicians Assistant) gave her oral antibiotics for a staph

infection (turned out being an MRSA-google it folks). 2 days later,

very ill, she returned and doctor put in the hospital on I.V.

antibiotics and while in the hospital she went into cardiac arrest

due to septic shock (blood poisoning). She was life flighted to a

major hospital and was on life support for 12 days and spent a total

of almost a month in the hospital and was extremely lucky to

survive. She also has CHF for the past 10 years. She is slowly

recovering, but we still don't know how much damage she may have.

I could go on and on with experiences like this going back over 40

years, but I won't bore you all.

Bottom line, those who have respect for someone simply because they

have a medical degree and wear a white coat are in great danger. A

doctor has to earn my respect by his actions and by being on the

ball. In order to protect myself and family, I have read volumes

upon volumes of medical books. That doesn't give me a degree, but it

does help me to ask the right questions. Now, if I could just

forgive myself for letting this statin thing get by me....because I

went by the pharma propaganda when looking for the cause of my

problems.

My sister in law is a R.N. and now teaches nursing. That is a help

sometimes, she jumps right on the butt of any doctor or nurse not

doing their job.

Believe me, Ed, I understand exactly where you are coming from.

> > >

> > > > I feel the same.

> > > > Also, the good doc took it upon himself and wrote

> > > > me privately about my hubby and answered some

> > > > medical questions.....and said to ask

> > > > anytime.....which I thought was really really nice.

> > > > ~Jill~

> > > >

> > > > Re: Re: I hate

> > > > to say this...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I agree he should have tried to learn here.

> > > > However

> > > > when you get pounded all the time about how docs

> > > > are

> > > > just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps say

> > > > or

> > > > what is written on the PI, or that most pts that

> > > > take

> > > > statins have problems and the docs just dismiss

> > > > it,

> > > > and so on and so on.

> > > >

> > > > Ed you said that you would monitor the discussion

> > > > and

> > > > not let it get out of hand. I find it impossible

> > > > to

> > > > think that it was the good Dr. that got out of

> > > > hand or

> > > > out of bounds. If you beat on someone long enough

> > > > they will just leave.

> > > >

> > > > Think back to your days in the navy and one guy on

> > > > board got hammered, what happened? They became

> > > > secluded. simple humman nature we all see it

> > > > everyday.

> > > >

> > > > Just because he did not see eye to eye w/ everyone

> > > > here does not mean that he is an evil non caring

> > > > humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and he

> > > > was

> > > > getting hammered. Not really enough time time to

> > > > get

> > > > to know the good people of this list who are

> > > > suffering.

> > > >

> > > > When trying to convey a message to someone it is

> > > > best

> > > > not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4 while

> > > > you

> > > > are telling them and trying to get them to hear

> > > > you.

> > > >

> > > > That is exactly what happened here. Too bad

> > > > really.

> > > >

> > > > Q

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > __________________________________________________

> > > >

[Guest guest]

And here is the problem. I did not say that we should

suck up or that all docs were gods. Just another

misrepresentation. I said we need to be open to hear

what he has to say. Maybe he has had good experiences

with statins. Not everyone on statins has problems.

Maybe he has just been lucky and the bad news for him

is down the road. Just because you don't agree does

not mean we should bash. It is rude. If this were

your house and your friends here, would you allow them

to treat a guest like this? I doubt it. You may pull

them aside and ask them to leave but, I would hope

that you would not let your friends bash someone.

Just because you can not see the person here in cyber

space does not mean that they don't have feelings.

Do unto others............and all that.

Q

--- dee19572001 wrote:

> The problem with the good doctor was the way he

> introduced himself.

> He said something to the effect of " Statin drugs are

> marvelous, side

> effects are rare and I don't like to see statins

> bashed. " His mind

> was already closed. He wrote me a personal email and

> said he was not

> the kind of cardio that deals with cholestol issues,

> but he

> was " well versed " in adverse statin effects. Hmmm.

>

> And just because a person has been to medical school

> does not

> impress me much, a doctor still has alot to learn

> after they

> graduate. A doctor only earns MY respect when he

> demonstrates his

> ability and not just because he has " Dr. " in front

> of his name.

>

> What was his purpose for joining a group like this?

> The name of the

> group says it all.(The name of the group is NOT " All

> doctors are

> Gods, please join and allow us to suck up. " ) He

> should not have been

> surprised. He would not have met with such direct

> bluntness from

> many of us had he expressed a desire to add to his

> knowledge,

> instead of closing his mind to our experiences

> because he

> already " knew it all " . We haven't lost much with his

> departure. He

> was not helping us with our statin issues and we

> need HELP!

>

> I did answer his email (quite respectfully, by the

> way) to me and

> encouraged him to use his knowledge to help us. I

> had no reply.

>

> Ed did a fine job of moderating. Moderating does not

> mean stopping

> the truth, even if it is unpleasant.

>

>

> >

> > > I feel the same.

> > > Also, the good doc took it upon himself and

> wrote

> > > me privately about my hubby and answered some

> > > medical questions.....and said to ask

> > > anytime.....which I thought was really really

> nice.

> > > ~Jill~

> > >

> > > Re: Re: I

> hate

> > > to say this...

> > >

> > >

> > > I agree he should have tried to learn here.

> > > However

> > > when you get pounded all the time about how

> docs

> > > are

> > > just spitting out what the dirty pharma reps

> say

> > > or

> > > what is written on the PI, or that most pts

> that

> > > take

> > > statins have problems and the docs just

> dismiss

> > > it,

> > > and so on and so on.

> > >

> > > Ed you said that you would monitor the

> discussion

> > > and

> > > not let it get out of hand. I find it

> impossible

> > > to

> > > think that it was the good Dr. that got out of

> > > hand or

> > > out of bounds. If you beat on someone long

> enough

> > > they will just leave.

> > >

> > > Think back to your days in the navy and one

> guy on

> > > board got hammered, what happened? They

> became

> > > secluded. simple humman nature we all see it

> > > everyday.

> > >

> > > Just because he did not see eye to eye w/

> everyone

> > > here does not mean that he is an evil non

> caring

> > > humman. Heck he wasn't even here a week and

> he

> > > was

> > > getting hammered. Not really enough time time

> to

> > > get

> > > to know the good people of this list who are

> > > suffering.

> > >

> > > When trying to convey a message to someone it

> is

> > > best

> > > not to slam them in the forehead with a 2x4

> while

> > > you

> > > are telling them and trying to get them to

> hear

> > > you.

> > >

> > > That is exactly what happened here. Too bad

> > > really.

> > >

> > > Q

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> __________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

Ed, excuse me, just gotta butt in here.

Ed's post is perfectly clear to me. It was not us who did not give

the good doctor a chance, it was he who did not give us one. It is

doctors like him, who " think " they have all the answers that helped

get us here to this point. A really worthwhile doctor would have

taken the heat, understood our frustration, and turned the whole

experience into a positive for everyone, including himself. He stood

to learn SO much here, but his arrogance got in the way. NOW, we

need to get a doc on here who is on the same page. The good doctor

will have to get his ego stroked elsewhere.

> > > Maybe he got the impression that most people on

> > this

> > > list who feel all docs are stuck in their ways and

> > are

> > > unwilling to listen to their pts, are drug company

> > > flunkies and just don't really care about their

> > pts.

> > >

> > > Maybe he got the impression that someone

> > > like.........hmmm say you, were " chained " in your

> > own

> > > " Platos cave. " You lumped him in with all the

> > other

> > > docs. Your only impression of him is what you

> > read

> > > here. You don't really know how he treats his

> > > patients when the door closes. But you have

> > certainly

> > > formed an opinion of someone you don't even know.

> > He

> > > was here a week. You never gave him a chance.

> > This

> > > list as a whole never gave him a chance. Just

> > like it

> > > was said months ago. That is a card ever got on

> > this

> > > list they would be hammered.

> > >

> > > He was hammered and disrespected. If a doc comes

> > on

> > > this list and does not damn all statins, all the

> > drug

> > > companies and the reps that sell them straight to

> > > hell, then this list will never accept them. That

> > is

> > > the only thing thatr this list is willing to hear.

> >

> > > Anything short will not cut it.

> > >

> > > Too bad really. I once read a quote that went

> > > something like this..........

> > > >

> > > > " The future belongs to those who see

> > possibilities

> > > > before they become

> > > > obvious. "

> > > > --Unknown

> > >

> > > The key part being able to see possibilities. You

> > > can't see the possibilities from inside you cave

> > with

> > > your eyes closed to what others may have to say

> > and

> > > show you.

> > >

> > > Q

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

Quinn s wrote:

....Just because you don't agree doesnot mean we should bash. It is rude. If this wereyour house and your friends here, would you allow themto treat a guest like this? I doubt it. You may pullthem aside and ask them to leave but, I would hopethat you would not let your friends bash someone.Just because you can not see the person here in cyberspace does not mean that they don't have feelings.Do unto others............and all that.QQuinn,

Glad to know you've become so considerate of other people's feelings. I agree with your new attitude that rudeness is uncalled for, no matter how much our views may differ. Does this mean that you regret the following post of 1/23/05, which you directed toward a fellow member of this group, who had only been trying to defend herself against unwarranted attacks?

You are like a child. Booohooo. I got my feelingshurt so I am going to take my ball and go home. Actlike an adult and say hey, I am not going to let whatothers say bother me. Grow up. How would anyone knowthat you have cataracts? And then to state it andthen say making fun of handicaped people and so on. Bla bla bla. Like they knew you were "handicaped" anddid it on purpose. No matter what people say if itdoes not agree with you you just whine and scream andcry.Pathetic really. Get a life. Go make friends inanother group. For all you know the person you yelledat about making fun of handicaped people might onlyhave one leg or 7 fingers or only one leg and one arm,but they still found your post and the color and thelarger font irritating. You don't know. But you areLes and you are the Queen Bee so who cares whateverelse

goes on in the world as long as you get tocomplain about the same things day after day righthere.