Re: the joke was: Need facts about Tito

[Guest guest]

Hi Jane,

I wasn't offended, just confused. Thanks for clearing it up.

Jane Wrote:

>The reason I said it smelled

>like a conspiracy theory is that people seemed to

>be assuming that all NTs are anti-autistic and go

>out of their way to thwart us or be mean to us.

>As if they might congratulate one another afterwards

>for getting in a good anti-autistic shot.

Actually, they do. It's NOT that they " conspire " against us, or are looking

specifically for autistics, its just that when they see or meet someone who is

different than they are, socially awkward, and not able to throw back the crap

they dish out, they deliberatly try to hurt that person anyway they can for

thier own amusment. It's a proven fact (at least as far as my expierience is

concerned). In fact, part of the unspoken social rules these " sheeple " NTs

follow is to beat the hell out of the weak, the unusual, odd, " losers " or they

may become subject to that abuse themselves, in a milder fashion- and the

fastest way to get approval is to beat up the " losers " . Then, in thier eyes, a

person instantly becomes " cool " . It's even in the media- have you ever watched

South Park? Pip is always picked on because he is different. Then one day

" Dameon " Satan's son, came to school and they picked on him. They exonerated

him and accepted him in the group as soon as he beat the crap out of Pip.

Or if you listen to the band " Filter " on thier Amalgumut album, they have a song

called the " Missing " . It's main gist is that Christianity is false, but the

chourous says why, and talks about human (NT) nature- " I'm not a good tool,

because you love to be cruel... I just want to beat up, beat up the meek " .

Listening to that song helped me so much. I finally got what was happening to

me. What kind of group thrives on cruelty- what does that say about them?

Not ALL NTs are like that, but if you can show me one that isn't, and that won't

give into peer pressure at some point, I'll be surprized. Finding an NT that's

not prone to this behavior is kind of like the search for the Yeti. Everyone

says they saw it, they know it has to be there, it's sightings have been

recorded, but if you went out to look for it, you'd never find it. Sorry, that's

just my opinon.

> " NT-bashing " is (in this context) when autistics

>start talking as if all NTs are " standard units "

>with no individuality.

NT individuality is cute and funny. If they had thier wish, everyone would be

exactly the same and would not be individuals. Afterall, they are " Sheeple " !

Imagine, giving up a piece of yourself and something you like just to be one of

the group? ICK!! Thier individuality is like this:

Say there is a certain blouse that is all the rage. Like lemmings or migrating

birds following the magnetic field, they all run to get it. There are a limited

number of color choices that are OK (although more are available to test the

social worthiness of the NT. If one buys the wrong color she will be made fun

of for a day). Let's say one NT gets a red blouse that looks good on her and

another NT gets a blue blouse. That makes them INDIVIDUALS. Or maybe one wears

stylishly acceptable jeans, and the other wears cords. That is them speaking

thier individuality.

Ants somehow individuate eachother chemically, by smell or in some ant like

fashion, but they all look the same. That is my analogy to NT individuality.

Yes, they are individuals, but not nearly to the extent we are.

>Just don't want us to lose all sense of

>proportion and forget that NTs are almost as unique

>as we are. ;-)

I think they are far less unique than we are. If they would allow themselves to

be who they are, they may be more like us. I think that scares them.

This is just my schpeel and my opinon. I don't mean to offend anyone, if you

happen to have close NT friends that are nice to you.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

Jeanette wrote:

>Not ALL NTs are like that, but if you can show me one that isn't, and that

>won't give into peer pressure at some point, I'll be surprized. Finding

>an NT that's not prone to this behavior is kind of like the search for the

>Yeti. Everyone says they saw it, they know it has to be there, it's

>sightings have been recorded, but if you went out to look for it, you'd

>never find it. Sorry, that's just my opinon.

I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences, but please

allow yourself to learn from the experiences of others,

too.

you wrote:

>This is just my schpeel and my opinon. I don't mean to offend anyone, if

>you happen to have close NT friends that are nice to you.

Actually, it wasn't a choice. I was born into a family

full of people (most of them non-autistic) who do not

fit your NT stereotype at all. I am not saying that to

be argumentative or because I am an " NT-lover. " It just

happens to be the truth.

What's more, my family brought me into contact with a

lot of other people (most of them NT) who also did not

fit your NT stereotype the least little bit. These

people might not understand autism, might not realize

that their social behavior is ingrained (wired), might

not ever have thought about the existence of different

ways of experiencing the world neurologically. But

they have ethical and moral standards that shape their

behavior and -- beneath that behavior and those ethics

and morals -- they have beliefs about the intrinsic

value of other people, or every other person.

The people with whom I was brought into contact by

my family, as well as some of the people I am

acquainted with through my job and through special

interest activities, are the opposite of eager to

hurt. They do not admire the status quo or think

that it is good to be " normal " when " normal " is a

lowest-common-denominator/everybody-is-doing-it

thing. If, in their ignorance, they do or say

something hurtful, they are very sorry and are

motivated to find out how to avoid doing it again.

Since my mother died, I have almost no contact with

anyone other than (who helps me) and, on a

superficial level, a few people at my work place.

But I know the good (albeit NT or non-autistic) folks

are out there in the world. I had the pleasure of being

arrested with a couple of them back in March (in an

anti-war action). I was not able to get much impression

of most of the people in the group of 11. But at least

two of them were fine people. One of those two is an

81-yr-old woman, the other a 53-yr-old man. Their life

experiences have been very different from each other

(one a grade-school teacher, mother, grandmother,

peace activist; the other a Vietnam veterean,

married-no-children, cat-rescuing computer programmer),

but they proved equally worthy as examples of the

human species, in my eyes, anyway.

Jane

P.S. there is a *lot* of the world that never, never,

never shows up on TV.

[Guest guest]

Jane you have been very lucky. I have never run across an NT that I can be

myself around, period.

My friends are not close friends, and my family is not supportive at all, they

don't know I have AS, and I won't tell them because it's unfruitful. My Uncle

is an aspie- he and I are the most alike in the family and he is the most

supportive of me.

I think NTs like to be mean not for any other reason that it makes them feel

big- it gives them power, gets them ahead, makes them feel better than someone

else.

I think Aspies don't do this because they aren't in the game, and are smart

enough to see that no society build on that kind of underhandedness and

nastiness will survive. Heck, elephants are kinder to eachother than people

are!

When I was a kid being abused and shunned, outcast, etc. I could not fathom why

anyone would do this to another person. What was the point? Aren't we in this

together? Why would you just hate someone like that for no reason? Why would

you try to be at the top of the heap, when eventually you have to come down?

This unprovoked meanness and power hunger in humanity will be it's undoing.

It's inexcusable and barbaric- humans are less civilized than some animals.

Jeanette

Re: the " joke " was: Need facts about Tito

wrote:

>I don't think it's just a stereotype... There were quite a few very

>credible psych studies done that underscored that humanity in general (not

>just NTs) was, almost without exception, pretty nasty when given the

>chance. I'm sure you've heard of at least some of them -- there was one

>that demonstrated " very nice " people would be willing to give horrendous

>shocks to one another, to lie blatantly, that they totally ignored cries

>for help, that in a position of power the power was almost always seriously

>abused... I'd need to dig out my social psychology textbook, but the

>results of every study were not in the least pleasant.

Hmmmm. You're right. Why have I been so lucky, then?

I have known so few people in my life, compared to most

(non-autistics), but such a huge proportion of them

have been totally contrary to the kind of " normal "

that does mean things. Maybe it's because the people

I've known have been " social justice " types who are

sensitive to injustice.

Jane

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have good friends who are " NT " I put it in quotes because most or

all of my close friends are a little neurologically tweaked, so are

they typical?? My best friend has very bad dyslexia and has fought

uphill against it since she was a kid (taught herself to read well as

an adult, she still has problems, but she does really well)

My other friends deal with depression and/or other mental illness

(mild for the most part).

My son has a few very minor AS-like traits, but really I think he'd

have to be called NT. He's not mean. He's a good guy (20 years

old).

Some people who are really mean and who you might call NT, I think

maybe they have mental illness that makes them act bad. Maybe not,

but depression can make a person really mean acting. Bipolar people

can be very untrustworthy (take the rent money and blow it on

whatever).

I think the big factor in what makes a person mean is how they were

raised. I think you have met some really horrible people, and I hope

that they leave you alone from now on. I nope you get to meet some

nice NTs.

Camille

[Guest guest]

I like your explanation; it makes a lot of sense.

Did you all know that if a chicken is “different” from the other

chickens in the barnyard, the “normal” chickens will peck it to

death. Just an observation that I had as a child. When I likened

it to human behavior, I started my “social echolalia” stuff,

trying to hide in the barnyard so to speak.

Louis

From: Klein

I think it is deeper than that. The need that many NTs have to

bully

and abuse people that do not fit-in is a part of their pack

mentality.

By punishing members of the pack that violate the rules or the

social

standards, errant members of the pack are brought back into line.

This

behavior is essential, in the absence of a more formalized,

verbal rule

structure (which cannot exist in animals like wolves, who have no

formal, verbal rules) to maintain cohesion of the pack.

Autistic people are not pack animals. We don't have a concept of

pack

mentality; we are more likely to not even fully conceptualize

that other

people are really living beings, just like we are, than to think

that we

are one of a pack. I personally have never felt like one of a

group--

to me, I am always the one that is in a group with one member, no

matter

how cognitively similar the others in that group may be.

Since the autistic person is more or less in a group of one,

there is no

point in trying to make anyone else conform to the group norm.

The

mechanisms to enforce group cohesion are part of the " social

skills "

that we do not have.

This is a simplified view, of course, and there are doubtless

going to

be some objections... but the observations here are meant as

relative,

not absolute, measures.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/2/2003 8:23:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

adamsCLAYADAMS@... writes:

> I think that a major reason that we don't

> bully, tease, humiliate, intentionally

> hurt others is because, having been thus

> victimized, we understand that *it hurts!*

> and so are far less likely to victimize

> others.

>

> Clay

Yes, I find this to be so. My nephews were being bullied, yes. Are being

homeschooled now, to save fragile self esteem. my brother I think is doing very

well with Quinn's autism. but mine sister cried and cried she did a " Why? Why?

Why? " and " Oh G-d! Not another one oh please,no. this can't be happening to

me! " which i think shows her attitude towards how well she took her children's

autism. didn't make me feel too good either crying and screaming are not

sounds of joy. so i think when realizing my siblings had children that are like

mineself was not a particurly good thing for them. but basically as mine sister

looks for a cure. my brother accepts what is as what is. I tries to make

things better for mine nephew children. we are called the nerd family, yes. But

my nephews are spared daily bullying yes. they are schooled at home many times

by mineself.

Also they are sweet children, yes. And won't hurt a living thing. one

actually figured out, yes, what was going on when cat had puppies (no what's the

other word) cat puppies(?) and helped with delivery. He has kept them all as

well. Feeding them through bottles.

it was due to bullying that they are homeschooled yes. but they also not

taught silly social peer rules and regulations.

Mine niece was dx'd ADHD but rediagnosed Asperger's is quite a bully herself.

she is reactionary however. so she will help push a wheel chair of student

with cerebral palsy, yes. but the person who tried to bully and made fun of

her, yes. got clobbered well. now much children are in feardom of her. she not

hurt the meek or mild, no, but makes servants of the ones who tries to pick on

herself or others. she was in fight in schoolground with fourth grade boy

when just in first grade. she has high tolerance for pain, (common in some

spectrum peoples) so she kept going like in no pain. she has thrown herself at

children's who make fun of herself kicking and tearing at teacher peoples who

try

stop her. and will corner mocking children's after schools. she dealt with

children teasing by bullying back. but she is strong girl. and she not hurt any

weaker or meeker than she, no. but forces children that made fun of her to

plays with her or else they missing teeth they will. and if someone call us geek

family they are ones that carry her bag to school then, after a scruffing in

school yard where she teaches shame to boy children.

My niece is a bully. But a reactionary one. If you can see what I mean. not

born of malice no. disabled child will be harmed by herself. She bullies the

bullies. if I can say correct.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

My daughter is like your niece; she bullies the bullies, and is

kind to those who are kind. I wish I could be like that!

Louis

From: Miko715@...

<mailto:%5Bmailto:Miko715@...%5D>

one actually figured out, yes, what was going on when cat had

puppies (no what's the

other word) cat puppies(?) and helped with delivery.

Kittens

Mine niece will help push a wheel chair of student

with cerebral palsy, yes. but the person who tried to bully and

made fun of

her, yes. got clobbered well. now much children are in feardom

of her. she not

hurt the meek or mild, no, but makes servants of the ones who

tries to pick on

herself or others. she was in fight in schoolground with fourth

grade boy

when just in first grade. she has high tolerance for pain,

(common in some

spectrum peoples) so she kept going like in no pain. she has

thrown herself at

children's who make fun of herself kicking and tearing at teacher

peoples who try

stop her. and will corner mocking children's after schools. she

dealt with

children teasing by bullying back. but she is strong girl. and

she not hurt any

weaker or meeker than she, no. but forces children that made fun

of her to

plays with her or else they missing teeth they will. and if

someone call us geek

family they are ones that carry her bag to school then, after a

scruffing in

school yard where she teaches shame to boy children.

My niece is a bully. But a reactionary one. If you can see what

I mean. not

born of malice no. disabled child will be harmed by herself. She

bullies the

bullies. if I can say correct.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:20:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

lgainor@... writes:

> The problem is that the 'right' solution is a major job that the

> school and parents must cooperate to solve, a little 1. grade kid

> cannot do this on his/her own. Untill they wisen up i guess only

> the

> brutal spectrum kids can avoid teasing and bullying, its quite

> sad i

> think.

>

it is sad. as mine nephews were bullied often and teased. one wet his pants

due to startling noise, so a student would constantly slam a door to startle

him. knowing this will do so, as he would comment on it, yes. so teacher

peoples said the boy wasn't actually doing anything. no one considered my

nephews

low tolerance to noise. he could not even sit in cafeteria, no, and would rather

go hungry as he could not bear it. no one considered HIM. just told him to

deal with it, snap out of it and so on, yes. child peoples were often mean to

him and it was best that he be pulled out of school, yes, so not be in torment,

no. as no one teachers or principals gave consideration. after my brother

argued extensive to school peoples, he best it keep nephew safe at home and

learn who he is and kept safe from shool peer torment and sound torment and

learn

at home, yes.

My other nephew was pulled out of school due to same school wetting and

seizures that happened only in school. So it was considered stress induced a bit

much for a preschool child person, yes. so out he was pulled.

My niece likes being around people (strange for our family but every

spectrumite different I suppose) and can defend herself adequate. She is

resourceful

and merciless. One very brutal autistic, yes. but she reasons as she does not

terrorize none that do not deserve as such. She basically says she does unto

others what they do unto others. In that case that does make sense to me,

yes.

I guess she is clever although a different version of autism that our family

has to get used to. She will never be as complacent as mineself and this is

good, I think. But it is a shame that only the strongest autistics seem to

survive through school, without some post traumatic stress of it all.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

> My daughter is like your niece; she bullies the bullies, and is

> kind to those who are kind. I wish I could be like that!

>

> Louis

>

I was like that too when i started in school, very high pain

tolerance is a nasty trick to have

In 1. grade i was teased because my name is the same as a popular

cartoon figure, the 'big' boys would call me names and i would chase

them around. Then one day i caught a boy from 4. grade and beat him

up really good, he had blue and brown bruises all over. Noone teased

me again i think, not that i remember anyhow.

But i do think i was quite nasty on that occasion, and i have come to

the conclussion that i was way out of line. It did work, but it was

still not the right thing to do. They did not stop because they

learned it was wrong to bully, but out of fear. So i guess this

taught them that strong makes right instead of making them more

accepting of other people.

The problem is that the 'right' solution is a major job that the

school and parents must cooperate to solve, a little 1. grade kid

cannot do this on his/her own. Untill they wisen up i guess only the

brutal spectrum kids can avoid teasing and bullying, its quite sad i

think.

On a sidenote it can give very nice friends to stand up for other

peoples rights, i have 2 friends that i helped in a way that really

moved them on in life. Making a difference is often worth it i would

say, but only if you have the strength to do so.

[Guest guest]

I have the high pain tolerance, but I don’t have the skills to

stand up for myself. I’ve intervened when other kids were being

threatened, but I just avoided people that picked on me. I am

very large and can easily hurt someone, but I worry about hurting

their feelings (of all things). I can’t read their faces or their

body language, so I don’t know how they’re feeling and I worry

that I might upset them. Stupid, eh?

Louis

From: drubrov

I was like that too when i started in school, very high pain

tolerance is a nasty trick to have

In 1. grade i was teased because my name is the same as a popular

cartoon figure, the 'big' boys would call me names and i would

chase

them around. Then one day i caught a boy from 4. grade and beat

him

up really good, he had blue and brown bruises all over. Noone

teased

me again i think, not that i remember anyhow.

But i do think i was quite nasty on that occasion, and i have

come to

the conclussion that i was way out of line. It did work, but it

was

still not the right thing to do. They did not stop because they

learned it was wrong to bully, but out of fear. So i guess this

taught them that strong makes right instead of making them more

accepting of other people.

The problem is that the 'right' solution is a major job that the

school and parents must cooperate to solve, a little 1. grade kid

cannot do this on his/her own. Untill they wisen up i guess only

the

brutal spectrum kids can avoid teasing and bullying, its quite

sad i

think.

On a sidenote it can give very nice friends to stand up for other

peoples rights, i have 2 friends that i helped in a way that

really

moved them on in life. Making a difference is often worth it i

would

say, but only if you have the strength to do so.

[Guest guest]

At 03:04 PM 8/4/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>The problem is that the 'right' solution is a major job that the

>school and parents must cooperate to solve, a little 1. grade kid

>cannot do this on his/her own. Untill they wisen up i guess only the

>brutal spectrum kids can avoid teasing and bullying, its quite sad i

>think.

the school, the parents, the community....

and when they do - I guess that's where it became my job to tell the world

it's like " catching kids being good " and letting them know about it

not always just catching them when they screw up and letting them hear about it

I know it's possible for a very Autistic kid (and an Aspie kid) to be

integrated into a mainstream school and not be bullied

I've experienced it first hand with and Ben

there IS hope

-jypsy

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