Alcoholism

[Guest guest]

There are always choices, for every illness, and for every person and situation.

A person

with cancer can decide which treatment to follow, or even whether or not to

accept/

continue treatment. A diabetic can choose whether or not to follow a diabetic

diet and/or

take insulin. A person with cirrhosis - even unrelated to alcohol - can choose

to avoid

toxic substances. A person with mental illness can choose to take their

medications or

not.

I believe that alcoholics have choices, as well - and not just the choice

whether or not to

start drinking. The fact is, if someone is predisposed to addiction, they will

develop an

addiction to something, even if they never take a drink in their lives. And a

person who

does not address the underlying causes of addiction is " doomed " to either

continue with

their current addiction, or, if they get help for that one, then move onto

another addiction.

Wasn't it Dick Van Dyke who came out every few years, saying he had yet another

addiction? First alcohol, then drugs, then sex, etc.

We're not living in the 1900's, when nothing was known about addiction. There

are

treatments available literally to everyone who wants them. Those with lots of

money go to

country-club rehab centers. Those who have insurance may go to a 28 day program

at a

hospital, or a shorter program. Those who have limited funds can get treatment

at their

local mental health clinic. And for those who have nothing, there's AA and NA

(and the

local mental health clinic, as well).

It's very difficult to understand why people would literally throw away their

lives when

treatment is in their reach. Could those of you with cirrhosis imagine your

doctor calling

you tomorrow to tell you that they have a new treatment which will cure

cirrhosis (and take

away all your symptoms), and you tell him, " Thanks, but no thanks? " I can't.

Can you imagine the underlying issues which would cause an addict to essentially

refuse

the treatment that is there for the taking? It boggles the mind. How low do

you have to

feel to choose NOT to take advantage of something that could save your life?

Still, it is a choice that addicts make for themselves. Nobody " makes " them do

it. To

excuse them of that choice is to enable them to continue to drink, and that is

not doing

them any sort of favor.

If/when an addict really wants to overcome his or her illness, there are

resources out there

which can almost guarantee success. The " problem " is, it is NOT an easy ride;

in fact, it's

probably more difficult than any of us could begin to imagine. But, when the

addict

decides that the pain of continuing their addiction is worse than the pain of

confronting

their issues, they will focus all their efforts on overcoming their addiction.

For some, it

happens fairly early in the game (loss of a job, divorce, etc). For others, it

takes

something more serious (perhaps a terminal illness). And for others, the pain

of

confronting their issues is far worse than the pain of illness and death.

Now that I've finished that ... ;-)

How does one get over their resentment towards healthy " drinkers " ? I've never

been a

heavy drinker - I have (rather, had. Those days are over) a glass of wine at

midnight on

New Year's Eve, and maybe a beer sometime during the summer at a barbeque (this

year I

actually had two - that's a total of three drinks since summer, 2005) I've also

never, ever,

taken any illegal drug, not even to " experiment. " I've never had a transfusion,

or done

anything " risky " to get hepatitis. Yet here I sit, diagnosed with cirrhosis,

and they have no

idea what caused it.

I know plenty of people who are probably alcoholics, and others who, if they're

not

alcoholics, they drink like fishes!

So, how do I not feel resentful of those who drink like fish, and engage in

other risky

behaviors, and don't get sick?

Donna

[Guest guest]

MaC

I know very little about any of you and the situations you have been through.

I admire what I know this far. So many questions come to mind that I won't ask,

but in general they go something like this...Ok so and so did this, but did they

go through this too? And that is only a hypothetical type of question. I get

the parts it is a disease. I get the part we first need to have compassion.

Then we get years down the road and start thinking...why not hold this person

accountable for their actions. Sure its a disease and its a preventable

disease. There is help. It's suicide is what it seems to be. If a person has

another of type of disease do we not expect them to do their part.

There is one thing that it would take in my circumstances to take the anger

and resentment away and that would be effort on his part. Trying and failing,

trying and failing, and trying and failing is at least an effort. That is

struggling, but failing to try I can not grasp that reality.

I am not going to tell you my daughter is abused, because he chooses to drink.

She is not, I make sure her safety comes first. But in some ways she does give

up and make sacrifices that she normally would not have to make because he

chooses to drink. When I stop and think about that scenario and in those

situations - yes there is anger. But honestly the only thing I hold on to is my

faith in God. That doesn't mean that I don't love my husband. I do, but loving

him and sitting by watching his kill himself are two different things.

I respect what others have been able to do. I value your insight. But for

saunders and I...its a pretty tough road.

MaC wrote:

Is a disease. A very powerful disease. Most people with it don't know

they have it. Some ignore it while others are in denial about it or

don't want to accept that they can have it.

Many people look at alcoholism from the outside looking in. With that

perspective it seems to be a very selfish disease that is in control

of the alcholic. " They can quit any time " Right? But what's reality is

there are the most out of control and need the most help.

Alcoholism is also a progessive disease. It can happen to a seventeen

year old and won't show any signs or cause real problems until they

are in there thirties or fourties or until they come down with

cirrhosis. Some act quite normal while others are violent and disruptive.

But I am most certain if the alcoholic had to do it all over again,

they wouldn't choose their disease. For many drinking has became their

life and they see no way out of that type of life. They can't even

dream what it's like to live sober, to do things sober. They see the

rest of the world has happy while they suffer. For some this causes

inner anger and depression. Why me?

But what we all have to understand is that it is still a disease. A

disease that is just as valid as cancer, cirrhosis, hepatitis etc.

Each person is different. Some can face their disease and fight. Some

alcoholics do this. There are even many famous examples. Others with

disease can also choose not to fight and give up. We are all made up

of a different character. But deep down we are still that little boy

or girl we grew up and away from.

So when looking at alcoholism please try to look at it with compassion

and not contempt. In the beginning the alcoholic may have chose to

drink and eventually their choices were lost to the disease. And when

someone has fallen OUR first choice should be to help them up.

MaC

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Unless you are an alcoholic you will never understand an alcoholic. But you

don't have too. But to call them an addict is to admit that you do not

completely understand the disease and that it's more than an addiction. It's

compulsive but it also progresses from that to the point it alters chemical

brain function. I could go on and on.

Of course we all have choices. It's easy to lay it in the persons lap and say

it's their choice but it's much more complicated than that. Most people with

diseases have consultation with a doctor who provides them with choices and

treatment. Most alcholics don't seek treatment and are left to their own

devices. They most often try to hide their problem. Usually because they feel

they don't have a problem and sencond because society labels alcoholics. Hence

the whole denial thing.

Matter of fact about 8 out of 10 people drink alcohol and a number of them are

considered alcoholics.

Now, I can understand your resentment toward people who you think are more

deserving of liver disease because of their actions. But to do so is to label

it. " Only these types of behaviors or people should have it or get it " . And also

leads us to realize how powerless we all actually are. But we have to choose to

live and choose to live with those around us. Even if we are dealt with a bad

hand and someone else isn't'.

I just ask that we show compassion towards others. Find and fix our own faults

before we look for faults in others and try to fix those.

MaC

Donna Lauritzen wrote:

There are always choices, for every illness, and for every person and situation.

A person

with cancer can decide which treatment to follow, or even whether or not to

accept/

continue treatment. A diabetic can choose whether or not to follow a diabetic

diet and/or

take insulin. A person with cirrhosis - even unrelated to alcohol - can choose

to avoid

toxic substances. A person with mental illness can choose to take their

medications or

not.

I believe that alcoholics have choices, as well - and not just the choice

whether or not to

start drinking. The fact is, if someone is predisposed to addiction, they will

develop an

addiction to something, even if they never take a drink in their lives. And a

person who

does not address the underlying causes of addiction is " doomed " to either

continue with

their current addiction, or, if they get help for that one, then move onto

another addiction.

Wasn't it Dick Van Dyke who came out every few years, saying he had yet another

addiction? First alcohol, then drugs, then sex, etc.

We're not living in the 1900's, when nothing was known about addiction. There

are

treatments available literally to everyone who wants them. Those with lots of

money go to

country-club rehab centers. Those who have insurance may go to a 28 day

program at a

hospital, or a shorter program. Those who have limited funds can get treatment

at their

local mental health clinic. And for those who have nothing, there's AA and NA

(and the

local mental health clinic, as well).

It's very difficult to understand why people would literally throw away their

lives when

treatment is in their reach. Could those of you with cirrhosis imagine your

doctor calling

you tomorrow to tell you that they have a new treatment which will cure

cirrhosis (and take

away all your symptoms), and you tell him, " Thanks, but no thanks? " I can't.

Can you imagine the underlying issues which would cause an addict to

essentially refuse

the treatment that is there for the taking? It boggles the mind. How low do

you have to

feel to choose NOT to take advantage of something that could save your life?

Still, it is a choice that addicts make for themselves. Nobody " makes " them do

it. To

excuse them of that choice is to enable them to continue to drink, and that is

not doing

them any sort of favor.

If/when an addict really wants to overcome his or her illness, there are

resources out there

which can almost guarantee success. The " problem " is, it is NOT an easy ride;

in fact, it's

probably more difficult than any of us could begin to imagine. But, when the

addict

decides that the pain of continuing their addiction is worse than the pain of

confronting

their issues, they will focus all their efforts on overcoming their addiction.

For some, it

happens fairly early in the game (loss of a job, divorce, etc). For others, it

takes

something more serious (perhaps a terminal illness). And for others, the pain

of

confronting their issues is far worse than the pain of illness and death.

Now that I've finished that ... ;-)

How does one get over their resentment towards healthy " drinkers " ? I've never

been a

heavy drinker - I have (rather, had. Those days are over) a glass of wine at

midnight on

New Year's Eve, and maybe a beer sometime during the summer at a barbeque (this

year I

actually had two - that's a total of three drinks since summer, 2005) I've

also never, ever,

taken any illegal drug, not even to " experiment. " I've never had a

transfusion, or done

anything " risky " to get hepatitis. Yet here I sit, diagnosed with cirrhosis,

and they have no

idea what caused it.

I know plenty of people who are probably alcoholics, and others who, if they're

not

alcoholics, they drink like fishes!

So, how do I not feel resentful of those who drink like fish, and engage in

other risky

behaviors, and don't get sick?

Donna

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Well, it's never a perfect yellow brick road. Matter of fact it might

as well be 4-wheelin'. I just speak from my heart.

Persons should be held accountable. But the key is to get them to be

accountable.

This isn't easy. First they have to realize they have a problem. But

that's not your problem to solve or figure out, that's theirs.

The main thing is to make sure you are in a safe environement. If you

are then that is good. If not you have to get out.

For an alcoholic to always be trying to quit is a sign for help that

they want quit but can't do it alone.

That may be a sign to offer help. They may respond to help better from

someone else other than you.

You can't lead a horse fifty feet from the water and expect him to

find the rest of the way. Sometimes you may have to drag him/her to

the waters edge. Don't expect him/her to drink the first time.

It can take several years for someone to find a place in themselves to

walk away from alcohol. It's a long and hard road.

So when people say don't put it all on your shoulders, they are right.

It's not your burden to bare. But you can help them to recovery.

First get educated about alcoholism and what it does. Know of places

locally that can help. Check out in patient treatment facilities.

(Just in case). Sometimes I wish I would have placed my wife

(involuntarily) into a treatment facility. (legal to do by the way in

CA if they are a threat to themselves. Drinking with cirrhosis is a

considered a threat). It may have cost my marriage but she would be alive.

Or...talk to a family counselor who are trained in this area.

Sometimes, we want to keep the problem " in house " but it becomes to

large for one person to handle.

Or...if you are anything like me, you'll avoid the fights and

confrontation and try to make things pleasant. That's what I did.

I wish I could offer some advice. Hindsight is 20/20. But when I was

dealt the hand and I knew I was going to lose. I chose love. I

couldn't change my wife or her disease. But I could change my

attitude. At that point, I became focused on her and why I loved her.

And, I would like to think I made the end of her life easy and more

rewarding for her. Besides, at that point, it was no longer about me

or what I wanted. It was about her.

My regeret...is that it it took so long for me to realize that.

MaC

[Guest guest]

Thank You MaC.

MaC wrote: Well, it's never a perfect yellow brick

road. Matter of fact it might

as well be 4-wheelin'. I just speak from my heart.

Persons should be held accountable. But the key is to get them to be

accountable.

This isn't easy. First they have to realize they have a problem. But

that's not your problem to solve or figure out, that's theirs.

The main thing is to make sure you are in a safe environement. If you

are then that is good. If not you have to get out.

For an alcoholic to always be trying to quit is a sign for help that

they want quit but can't do it alone.

That may be a sign to offer help. They may respond to help better from

someone else other than you.

You can't lead a horse fifty feet from the water and expect him to

find the rest of the way. Sometimes you may have to drag him/her to

the waters edge. Don't expect him/her to drink the first time.

It can take several years for someone to find a place in themselves to

walk away from alcohol. It's a long and hard road.

So when people say don't put it all on your shoulders, they are right.

It's not your burden to bare. But you can help them to recovery.

First get educated about alcoholism and what it does. Know of places

locally that can help. Check out in patient treatment facilities.

(Just in case). Sometimes I wish I would have placed my wife

(involuntarily) into a treatment facility. (legal to do by the way in

CA if they are a threat to themselves. Drinking with cirrhosis is a

considered a threat). It may have cost my marriage but she would be alive.

Or...talk to a family counselor who are trained in this area.

Sometimes, we want to keep the problem " in house " but it becomes to

large for one person to handle.

Or...if you are anything like me, you'll avoid the fights and

confrontation and try to make things pleasant. That's what I did.

I wish I could offer some advice. Hindsight is 20/20. But when I was

dealt the hand and I knew I was going to lose. I chose love. I

couldn't change my wife or her disease. But I could change my

attitude. At that point, I became focused on her and why I loved her.

And, I would like to think I made the end of her life easy and more

rewarding for her. Besides, at that point, it was no longer about me

or what I wanted. It was about her.

My regeret...is that it it took so long for me to realize that.

MaC

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I don't believe that the only people who can understand an alcoholic are other

alcoholics.

As a psychotherpaist (before becoming a full time mommy), I've known several TOP

RATE

therapists who work with substance abusers who were not alcholics themselves.

Likewise,

I've known several who are alcoholics, went through treatment, got a degree,

hung up a

shingle, and did much more damage than good.

I DO think that there is a great NON-PROFESSIONAL support network of addicts out

there,

called AA and NA. I think for the nitty gritty, day to day avoidance of

addiction, there is

nothing better than those groups. They are always available, you always have

access to

your sponsor, and they can give you tried and true tips and tricks to avoid

addiction on a

daily basis. But it's not a treatment of the underlying cause of addiction.

Think of it this way: If I kept slipping and falling because my kitchen sink

was leaking

water, there would be many ways (and many people to offer advice) that I could

avoid

slipping and falling - keep a towel on the floor in that area, walk around the

affected area,

put a bucket under the sink, etc. I would not fall again if I followed those

steps. But my

sink would still be leaking. To stop my sink from leaking, I would have to call

a

professional - a plumber - to fix it.

Though my specialty was in family therapy, and not in substance abuse, I still

feel I have a

good understanding of the process of alcoholism. I still say (and so do the

professionals

in the field - and so would th folks at AA!) that to excuse someone's behavior

is enabling

them to continue to abuse substances. The minute someone says, " They can't help

it -

that's just the way they think - it's the disease of alcoholism that makes them

do those

things... " that person sets up the addict to continue their addiction. How is

excusing

someone's behavior a help to them? They ALREADY want to convince everyone

around

them that it's not their fault - if someone comes along and says, " Of course

you're right!

It's not your fault! " they give them that much more reason to continue to abuse.

The fact is, even though substance abuse affects someone's thought process, it

does not

usually do so to the point to excuse them of their behaviors and choices. If it

did - if

substance abuse impaired mental processes and reasoning to an extent that the

person

didn't know what they were doing, then why aren't all of the caregivers given

power of

attorney for thei abuser? If my husband had an illness which affected his

mental

functioning, SOMEONE (if not me, then someone in the medical field) would have

power of

attorney, and would make medical decisions for him. He could refuse treatment

until the

cows came home, the person with power of attorney would make the decisions for

him.

So, if an addict's brain is affected to the point that they cannot reason, why

don't their

loved ones have power of attorney to make treatment decisions for them? That is

completely unheard of (unless, of course, the addict has another illness for

which power of

attorney is granted).

There is a law that says that if a person is a danger to himself or others, he

can be

hospitalized against his will for 72 hours. This law is meant for people whose

mental

processes are so impaired that they cannot make decisions for themselves. This

law is

never used for substance abusers. Why? Because, even though their mental

processes

may be impaired, they're not to the point that the person cannot make lucid

decisions for

themselves. In fact, I knew a therapist who tried to use this once, to give a a

break to a

woman whose husband would beat her up every time he got drunk. The cops

transported

him to the psychiatric hospital, and the doctors laughed her out of there - AND

one even

threatened to report her to the licensing board for doing that. Why? Because

even though

the man's mental functioning was impaired by alcoholism, it wasn't impaired to

the point

that he could not make decisions for himself.

Substance abuse is not about what alcohol does to a person's body or mind, it's

about

their mind and personality. Have you heard the term, " dry drunk? " (Does anyone

use that

anymore?) It's someone who is not drinking or drugging, but who exhibits the

same

personality characteristics they did when they were actively using. The fact

is, just

avoiding alcohol or drugs does not even come close to resolving the issues.

Personally, I think non-using addicts wreak the most havoc on their loved ones,

particularly if their loved ones have not gone into treatment themselves,

because they

think that the addict is " ok, " (they're not drinking anymore), but they're still

acting the way

they did when they were using. I also think this is the worst scenario for an

addict,

because THEY also think that they're ok - but they don't see the similarities to

when they

were using. They think - I'm sober now, what's the problem?

As far as who is more " deserving " - I resent the implication that I think anyone

deserves

cirrhosis. What I meant when I mentioned my resentment was more like the

resentment of

an 8 year old child (or maybe a teenager) " THEY always get to do whatever they

want. How

come I can't? "

[Guest guest]

> Persons should be held accountable. But the key is to get them to be

> accountable.

You cannot control what other people do. You can only control what you do. You

don't

have to " get " anyone to be accountable. You only need to allow them to face

the

consequences.

If someone goes out on every weeknight and gets drunk, and then can't get to

work in the

morning, the consequence is that the person will be fired. So, unless you want

to continue

to enable them to drink, let " nature " take its course, and don't call and make

excuses for

them.

If someone has 2 DUI's and continues to want to drink and drive, the consequance

is

getting caught and having their license revoked. So be it. They are

accountable for their

OWN behavior, whether they want to be or not.

> The main thing is to make sure you are in a safe environement. If you

> are then that is good. If not you have to get out.

I would just like to point out that " safe " does not only mean physical safety,

but emotional

safety, as well.

> You can't lead a horse fifty feet from the water and expect him to

> find the rest of the way. Sometimes you may have to drag him/her to

> the waters edge. Don't expect him/her to drink the first time.

Draggin the " horse, " kicking and screaming, to the water's edge, can be a set-up

for the

caregiver. It puts the focus on them, instead of the alcoholic. If something

goes wrong

when the alcoholic tries treatment (and if they were dragged there, believe me,

it WILL go

wrong!), then that gives the alcoholic an excuse not to try anything in the

future - AND it

also then becomes the caregiver's fault (You MADE me go).

My advice is not to drag anyone, kicking and screaming, to treatment. Give them

every

possible roadmap to get their themselves, but let THEM do it. Otherwise it's

guaranteed

not to work.

> (Just in case). Sometimes I wish I would have placed my wife

> (involuntarily) into a treatment facility. (legal to do by the way in

> CA if they are a threat to themselves. Drinking with cirrhosis is a

> considered a threat). It may have cost my marriage but she would be alive.

WOW! In IL, that is most definitely not the case - the doctors here would laugh

you out of

the place!

> Or...talk to a family counselor who are trained in this area.

> Sometimes, we want to keep the problem " in house " but it becomes to

> large for one person to handle.

Here's another good reason to tell someone on the outside: it holds the

caregiver

accountable, too. Now, the caregiver can't buy into the faulty logic of the

alcoholic, and

continue to enable him/her to drink. Now there is someone who can help the

caregiver

recognize when s/he is enabling the alcoholic.

> I chose love. I

> couldn't change my wife or her disease. But I could change my

> attitude. At that point, I became focused on her and why I loved her.

> And, I would like to think I made the end of her life easy and more

> rewarding for her. Besides, at that point, it was no longer about me

> or what I wanted. It was about her.

>

> My regeret...is that it it took so long for me to realize that.

> MaC

>

It sounds to me that you finally " let go " - let go of feeling like you had to

save her, or fix

everything for her.

Once someone in your situation can let go of that, then they can make choices

based upon

what is best for them.... which is what you did. What you did was let her face

the ultimate

consequence of her behavior, which was death. You stayed by her side, and loved

her, but

didn't take responsibility for her behavior, didn't try to fix everything,

didn't try to excuse

her behavior. You just loved her.

That is absolutely beautiful, and exactly what love is all about.

Donna

[Guest guest]

Leigh wrote:

I get the part we first need to have compassion. Then we get years down the

road and start thinking...why not hold this person accountable for their

actions.

No reason at all, Leigh, not to hold them accountable.

And I agree with the poster who suggested Al-Anon. I truly believe that

Al-Anon saved my sanity and saved my marriage.

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the analysis. Please understand I'm not in the medical profession and

was just posting my thoughts be them right or wrong.

Donna Lauritzen wrote:

> Persons should be held accountable. But the key is to get them to be

> accountable.

You cannot control what other people do. You can only control what you do.

You don't

have to " get " anyone to be accountable. You only need to allow them to face

the

consequences.

If someone goes out on every weeknight and gets drunk, and then can't get to

work in the

morning, the consequence is that the person will be fired. So, unless you want

to continue

to enable them to drink, let " nature " take its course, and don't call and make

excuses for

them.

If someone has 2 DUI's and continues to want to drink and drive, the

consequance is

getting caught and having their license revoked. So be it. They are

accountable for their

OWN behavior, whether they want to be or not.

> The main thing is to make sure you are in a safe environement. If you

> are then that is good. If not you have to get out.

I would just like to point out that " safe " does not only mean physical safety,

but emotional

safety, as well.

> You can't lead a horse fifty feet from the water and expect him to

> find the rest of the way. Sometimes you may have to drag him/her to

> the waters edge. Don't expect him/her to drink the first time.

Draggin the " horse, " kicking and screaming, to the water's edge, can be a

set-up for the

caregiver. It puts the focus on them, instead of the alcoholic. If something

goes wrong

when the alcoholic tries treatment (and if they were dragged there, believe me,

it WILL go

wrong!), then that gives the alcoholic an excuse not to try anything in the

future - AND it

also then becomes the caregiver's fault (You MADE me go).

My advice is not to drag anyone, kicking and screaming, to treatment. Give

them every

possible roadmap to get their themselves, but let THEM do it. Otherwise it's

guaranteed

not to work.

> (Just in case). Sometimes I wish I would have placed my wife

> (involuntarily) into a treatment facility. (legal to do by the way in

> CA if they are a threat to themselves. Drinking with cirrhosis is a

> considered a threat). It may have cost my marriage but she would be alive.

WOW! In IL, that is most definitely not the case - the doctors here would laugh

you out of

the place!

> Or...talk to a family counselor who are trained in this area.

> Sometimes, we want to keep the problem " in house " but it becomes to

> large for one person to handle.

Here's another good reason to tell someone on the outside: it holds the

caregiver

accountable, too. Now, the caregiver can't buy into the faulty logic of the

alcoholic, and

continue to enable him/her to drink. Now there is someone who can help the

caregiver

recognize when s/he is enabling the alcoholic.

> I chose love. I

> couldn't change my wife or her disease. But I could change my

> attitude. At that point, I became focused on her and why I loved her.

> And, I would like to think I made the end of her life easy and more

> rewarding for her. Besides, at that point, it was no longer about me

> or what I wanted. It was about her.

>

> My regeret...is that it it took so long for me to realize that.

> MaC

>

It sounds to me that you finally " let go " - let go of feeling like you had to

save her, or fix

everything for her.

Once someone in your situation can let go of that, then they can make choices

based upon

what is best for them.... which is what you did. What you did was let her face

the ultimate

consequence of her behavior, which was death. You stayed by her side, and

loved her, but

didn't take responsibility for her behavior, didn't try to fix everything,

didn't try to excuse

her behavior. You just loved her.

That is absolutely beautiful, and exactly what love is all about.

Donna

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