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> >

> >Hi to everyone nad Happy New Year,

> Had to say a few words on " supplements " .As a reminder my husband was

> diagnosed with cirrhosis in September(last stage-ascites)so we are

> dealing with his condition for four months.

> Now i have to tell you a story:

> 1986- My sister's father in law was chronic alchocolic and was

> diagnosed with cirrhosis,decompensated,couldn't manage ascites anymore

> so they were draining it twice a week,he spent a lot of time in

> hospital.Finally he was realeased to go home and " die " .Three months

> was life expectancy.

> For a hundreds of years a " non denatured liquid whey " was famous for

> it's ability to regenerate a liver.So doctor said go home and try it

> and also a yarrow tea.He was over 50 years old at the time.His diet

> was mostly liquid whey,whole grain bread and fresh made cheese.Which

> he did for a whole year(surprise- he didn't died after three months).

> Don't have to say that he is still alive,his wife died three years

> ago???The most interesting part is coming-he stopped drinking only for

> that year that he was on a diet???My sister told me that he was later

> even drinking " rubbing alcohol " (when he had no other).What

> happened?Seems that he made himself new liver???I want you take this

> with caution-I'm just telling the story all we are different so what

> worked for him doesn't mean that will work for all.

> Now,let me tell you about my husband-he started drinking liquid whey

> in October(my kitchen is cheese plant)and we found raw milk in

> York,PA(it's illegal in Virginia).So far my husband is doing

> fine,working 10 hours shifts as an electrician(doesn't sit in office).

> Most remarkable change was in his AFP tumor markers-they dropped from

> 124 to 13 and last was only 10!!!His proteins were high in September

> and came into normal(his last lab was in Nonvember),alkaline

> phosphates are normal also(they were really high before).His meld

> score came from 19 to 18,highest billirubin was 4.2 and last was

> 3.6.Albumin is still low and his ferritin levels hig also.His serum

> iron is now normal and saturated iron is little down from

> previous.Beside a liquid whey my husband eat healthy-raw juices

> daily,vegetables,a lot of fruit also.He has a very good appetite,no

> ascites(he is on low sodium diet,two bowels a day(no laxatives) and

> working without any problems which is very important.

> Next labs will be in a next couple of weeks so will see.It might be

> worse-we don't know.But at least it keeps his energy levels at this

> transition time before transplant.My husband has hepatitis C(it's

> still there so he still has underlying cause)and also high

> ferritin.Alcohol caused cirrhosis should be easier(in my opinion)to

> deal with.You can check about liquid whey and it's abilities.I'm

> against any of the products on market as herbal supplements(with any

> of these other chemicals are involved).Liquid whey is just natural

> supplement made from raw milk.

> Take care /Elvira

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

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Most states incorporate it with vehicle registration. I think sates

can go a step further and incorporate it with drivers education or

some other scholastic activity.

The problem with doing it with vehicle registration is that sometimes,

registration is automatic or done on the internet and folks aren't

given the option to become a donor or forget how to change their

options. And how do they tie in vehicle registration with the medical

community? Maybe the push should be at an emergency room waiting

room? I know how that sounds, but seriously, ever emergency room

waiting area I've been in has a few seats, lot's of people and a tv

and security guard. The only thing everyone does there is wait. So why

not talk or educate them? Anyway...

Of course this is a very sensitive subject, and most won't address it.

But the need is there. And everyone needs to understand the importance

to give.

I also think it's important to have a living will. So, family members

know your wishes and can have your wishes expressed when the time comes.

Always,

Love & Peace,

MaC

>

> That is a good idea. I don't know if all states do this, but

> where we live they ask on their registration forms, for there

> vehicles, for 1 dollar to be donated to make others aware of

> organ donation.

>

> I want to state again something that many people do not

> know....in the United States, you can sign an organ donor

> card, but unless your immediate family agrees for the organ

> to be taken, it may not be. Your family will have the last

> say...so if you truly " want' to be sure your organ is used

> for transplant, then your family has to know it. Also,

> another thing to think about is when they will take the

> organ. Some organs are taken when you are considered brain

> dead and you may be hooked to machines that keep your body

> processing like it is alive or the organ can be taken when

> your heart stops beating. They do many tests and it takes

> two doctors to verify, that are not in any way connected to

> the transplant itself, to declare you brain dead. The tests they

> do is to see if there is any electrical brain activity and

> other things. The problem with taking the organ after the

> heart stops beating is that the organ may become damage

> from lack of nutrients and oxygen. It isn't as good to

> transplant, may go into rejection faster in the recipent,

> and may not be used unless transplanted in a shorter amount

> of alotted time.

>

> These are just a few things to consider.

>

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I most certainly will! It makes me upset as well how much control insurance

companies have or the medical care of patients and hospitals. I wish the never

ending feuding and name calling in Congress would stop and that they would sit

down and actually fix problems that have been effecting Americans for so long.

Health Care has been debated since the 40's I think.

Try to stand your ground if you can. I'll say a good word tonight for you and

your husband.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I'm

here...I've been really upset of late...I was told I need

an operation or maybe two and now I may have to give up my

insurance I have in order for my husband to keep his since this

insurance he was suppose to go with his doctors won't accept it.

I don't want to go into details, but please keep us in your

prayers that things work out that this won't happen to us.

Thanks...

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You two are soooo uncanny!!!! I spent all morning in the e.r. at UNIVERSITY OF

COLORADO HEALTH SCIENCES CENTER and I'm

just fuming mad!!!! I told you MaC that i'd go get checked out.My belly has

become swollen in the last four days and it's really uncomfortable,

and my pain is just unbearable,and wouldnt you know it, they said to follow up

with the hep clinic.No lasix,no ultrasound to confirm acities,

I even ran into my hepatoligist in the hall and he jokingly asked if they had

found an alien baby in my abdomen! The guy is just wierd. I'm

so frustrated.It's getting harder to take this serious since no one else is .

A smoke, a beer, and some bbq potato chips are sounding mighty good about now.

Mac

Imagine being sent to a hospital and a doctor comes in, who you

never met before, and after you are there awhile, about a half

an hour, the professional doctor comes in and asks this intern

where a certain organ is located and he gives a completely wrong

answer and he is an intern ready to become a doctor. This

happened to me. I knew more than he did. That is frightening. ..

so the answer is YES, I do want to know more about their

required knowledge. How this joker made it as far as he did is

scary. If he is told to operate on a uterus, you might end up

losing a kidney. ( still smiling??)

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That really has me surprised. When I took my wife to the ER for abdominal

swelling, they admitted her and treated her ascites then released her.

For your doctor to make that comment is completely unprofessional and

inappropriate. I would contact the hospital's patient advocate or administrator

and vent my frustration. It almost sounds like, from your posts, that they are

just going through the motions and no one is advocating your care.

If you haven't been doing so, now is the time to really learn about your disease

and when you are at the hospital demand they answer your questions. Remember you

are the patient and you have rights.

What did they determine at the ER? And, what was the reason for discharge?

MaC

Bob Aragon wrote:

You two are soooo uncanny!!!! I spent all morning in the e.r. at UNIVERSITY OF

COLORADO HEALTH SCIENCES CENTER and I'm

just fuming mad!!!! I told you MaC that i'd go get checked out.My belly has

become swollen in the last four days and it's really uncomfortable,

and my pain is just unbearable,and wouldnt you know it, they said to follow up

with the hep clinic.No lasix,no ultrasound to confirm acities,

I even ran into my hepatoligist in the hall and he jokingly asked if they had

found an alien baby in my abdomen! The guy is just wierd. I'm

so frustrated.It's getting harder to take this serious since no one else is .

A smoke, a beer, and some bbq potato chips are sounding mighty good about now.

-

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That was so sad to read. I'm sorry for your loss. I look back and also find

where doctor(s) failed my wife. I know they all can't be perfect but I think at

times some think more of money or hospital costs than actually doing everything

they can to save a life. While others are young and seem more eager to try new

things.

I think we may have had that discussion earlier on.

Can you tell us more about Jeanne? Her story?

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: That

happened to a lady and good friend of mine on here.

Her name was Jeanne and the doctor told her no transplant.

She went to another doctor or specialist and was evaluated

for transplant and got the organ the day she was placed on

the list. ( Apparently, she was in very bad health)

However, she lost her life (after the transplant) due to a nurse not

recognizing an emergency situation when a transplant patient

developed an infection. She never gave up hope and it was

a shock to learn after all she went through, she wasn't blessed

with a longer life. I miss her greatly.

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You are too kind. The first paragraph, I thought was paraphrasing so I googled

the words, which sometimes leads me to hours of reading. But in the second

paragraph where the lymph nodes are mentioned, your definition is more likely.

It's also important to note that nothing was noted about the cirrhosis. Just

that it was there. It could be nodular in only a small area. Or be asymptomatic.

Or, even mistaken for fibrosis. (No symptoms are mentioned either.) The

statement lead me to believe the possibility the other conditions were

secondary to cirrhosis, which I had assumed, and may not (most likely) be the

case.

But, now I'm off to study E-Coli and it's effects on the liver...

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: You

did a good job...when I looked at the first sentence posted,

it does appear that they were saying about the pressure in

the veins. The second sentence is what changed that meaning

for me when they ran the whole thing together in reference

to the lymph nodes. It could really be either one. Now I am

curious which one it really is. Shows that even doctors don't

make things as clear as they should. That is quite

interesting. If we took it differently, I wonder how the

nurses take it. The saying that two or three heads are better

than one is so true. I like when others see things

in a different way, it gets me thinking more of the possibilities

and why they think the way they do. That is fascinating.

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Thanks! I have found two types of E coli so far that cause liver problems. One

that causes inflammation and another that covers the liver in a discoloring

orange film that gives the appearance of nodules. I'll post more later as I

continue to read. As far as being a doctor. I don't think so. I doubt I would

get through the year it takes just to learn medical terminology.

I'm probably so interested in cirrhosis because it effected me very deeply even

though I didn't have it. When my wife was going through this, I wasn't aware

about support groups. I wasn't educated enough about the disease to even ask the

doctors questions or even where to look for answers. Knew nothing about the

dangers of tylenol, or NSAIDs.

So for me, I just want to learn so I can help others who went what my wife and I

went through.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I

know the basics of this disease, but you seemed to be doing

much more research on it than I have. Are you sure you are

not going into the medical profession?....you seem to be really

involved in studying this disease very thoroughly. Coming

from every aspect of it. If I find any really good sites

with alot of indepth studies on this I will be sure to pass

them your way.

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Well I feel foolish. After back tracking my websites I found the article and was

about to post it. When I read it the first time, I just searched key words

" liver " and found two E Coli infections related to liver. Now that I read it

further. It was talking about birds! Never thought this group would lead me to

bird cirrhosis! LOL!

(nothing against birds with cirrhosis mind you.)

But, I have found this so far.

" Intra-abdominal infections

Intra-abdominal infections due to E coli often result from a perforated viscus

(eg, appendix, diverticulum) or may be associated with intra-abdominal abscess,

cholecystitis, and ascending cholangitis. Patients with diabetes mellitus are

also at high risk of developing pylephlebitis of the portal vein and liver

abscesses. "

That's from eMedicine.

I may have bit off more than I can chew. It seems for me, to see if E-Coli

relates to liver disease, I would have to study E-Coli completely and understand

how it works from a gastroenterology aspect. So in the meantime, I'll do some

light reading and post anything of significance.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I

admire you for going through all this and wanting to learn

more to help others. Just reading articles and looking up

the words in there that you may not know...is the way I

learned alot of what medical terminology means. I've seen

the articles you posted and read, so you must know alot of

terminology pertaining to the liver. I'm interested in

that article that makes the liver appear orange...can you

post the link? Thanks...

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I was looking at the relation of back pain with cirrhosis. I have read where

some people complain of back pain while others don't. But so far what I've found

is that back pain is rare in cirrhosis patients and is more commonly found in

pancreatitis.

I'm sorry for your back trouble. The back is a tricky thing that gives us all

problems at one time or another. My lower back still bothers me from a

racquetball injury six years ago.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I

have back trouble.

I have a " partial " paralysis in both my legs...I can walk, but

have difficulty getting in and out of high vehicles and sometimes

going up and down many steps.

It is located in my lumbar area that cause this. I also have

trouble between my shoulder blades (thoracic) and (cervical)neck area.

Are you having problems?

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Thanks! That saves me a lot of time from having to research many things

separately.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: If

you don't disappear from the group, here is a site you

might like...This doesn't have to do with cirrhosis...

it is a pathophysiology book on line that you can view anytime.

It is free to read.

http://www.mfi.ku.dk/ppaulev/content.htm

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Thanks again. I look forward to ready this tonight.

And, to give you an idea of what I would look like being a doctor. Just imagine

the movie Patch .

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote:

This article is high in medical terminology, but is a great article

describing

the difference between alcohol and non alcohol fatty livers leading to

cirrhosis. The causes of the damage done.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/ResearchInformation/ExtramuralResearch/Resource\

sAppGrantees/R21liver.htm

<http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/ResearchInformation/ExtramuralResearch/Resourc\

esAppGrantees/R21liver.htm>

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I meant " reading " not ready!

Speaking of reading, when my wife asked our doctor for a suggestion of reading

material about cirrhosis, he was almost at a loss for words. He couldn't

reference anything that wasn't a mandatory study toward a degree. (at least it

seemed at the time) Has anyone else asked that question?

Looking back, I think he may have been into his second year of treating patients

as part of a private practice. (While in contract with the local hospital to

provide clinical visits. The kind " House " hates to do.) (semi-unsupervised)

But anyway, he couldn't offer any information. We ended up driving toward LA to

a large Korean book store and found many useful books. She found/bought/read

several books. I think she may have been more up to speed than me at first.

Anyway...

Thanks for letting me post. (Posting in of itself is therapeutic. Right?)

MaC

MaC wrote: Thanks again. I

look forward to ready this tonight.

And, to give you an idea of what I would look like being a doctor. Just imagine

the movie Patch .

MaC

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Here's a link that would explain it better than I.

http://www.patchadams.com/story.html

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I

never seen the movie, Patch ...so I have no idea.

You will have to explain it to me.

No, we never had a chance to ask anyone for anything about

cirrhosis cause the day we found out my husband had cirrhosis

is the day I transported him down to the transplant hospital

right from the doctor office...he was in liver failure. He

had been tested for another operation and all showed everything

as being normal until he went to have the surgery and the

anethesiologist stopped the operation cause he noticed that the

whites of his eyes were yellow. This all took place in one

week time period. Talk about fast. From the time that the

white of his eyes were yellow to his skin turning a truly

unforgetable orange color was just a few days.

Bilirubin in the blood is the number one sign a patient has

of knowing if they have cirrhosis. Bilirubin can be high

in other disease also, one being a blood disorder.

However, it is still counted on as being dependable for the

diagnosis of cirrhosis and liver function evaluation more

than any other test available.

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Abijann,

If you could only see me at work! I sometimes bring tears to peoples eyes!

Being in the military, and being so professional all the time (which is ok), I

feel, I just have to make people relax. Some things aren't ALL important.

I work in an office environment. And you would be surprised at what people get

upset about. A misspelled word, or an incomplete phone message. Yes, these could

be important, but the people that get irate about them are usually the officers.

And, at the same time they miss that important phone call, they're picking up

their dry cleaning. While the enlisted guy/gal who skipped lunch to " watch " the

office took the message.

Anyway, so one day I decided to do halves. I took half messages, half phone

calls, I cut everything in half. I left messages for my boss to call back

numbers like 634-... , Chuck.... so and so called. You can call him back at....

I left half the message blank.

I left work with half my work done. I also left at half past the hour etc.

I wouldn't recommend anyone doing this, but, I knew my boss. After I explained

why, he laughed and gave me a day of leave. LOL!

Oh, the main reason I did this, was so my boss could see how much (half) of my

work was. Once they saw what half of what I did was, my job seemed more

important.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I

read the story about Patch and if that is the kind of

doctor you would be, I'd say go for it. There is never too

much laughter and humor in this world.

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When I was in Navy cooking school, these guys dissassembled another students'

bed in the bachelor enlisted quarters and stuffed all the parts into a huge wall

locker,

including the mattress. When he got back from the enlisted club drunk at 2:00

am,his

bed was AWOL ! lol

Mac

Of course, the payback is worse!!!!

They took all the cut up paper out of the trash bin and placed it

on top of everything inside my desk once, every drawer. Even the

little tiny punch pieces.

It took me a long time to clean it out. While I was talking to a

representative on the phone, I was doing that and everyone was sitting

around snickering at me. One even hid my stapler and would not let

me use theirs. I got them back good. I took their calendar where

they kept track of all their appointments and things they had

to do and hid it. Someone place a real looking rubber mouse in a

trap and placed it in one of the offices right near a girls desk.

She screamed while she was on the phone...everyone got a kick out of

that.

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Guest guest

That's funny! That was in Virginia right? The school, I mean. I heard many good

things about that school. I cooked in a very popular seafood restaurant in the

California (bay area) before I came into the service. (Not Red Lobster).

In Basic once, we switched two guys uniforms who had the same name. What made it

funny is that one was short and one was tall. The next morning, we all had to

rush down for chow so the two guys didn't have time to switch uniforms. I wish I

could paint a better picture. But if you could have seen our TI's (Training

Instructor) face! He just shook his head. :-)

Bob Aragon wrote:

When I was in Navy cooking school, these guys dissassembled another students'

bed in the bachelor enlisted quarters and stuffed all the parts into a huge

wall locker,

including the mattress. When he got back from the enlisted club drunk at 2:00

am,his

bed was AWOL ! lol

Mac

Of course, the payback is worse!!!!

They took all the cut up paper out of the trash bin and placed it

on top of everything inside my desk once, every drawer. Even the

little tiny punch pieces.

It took me a long time to clean it out. While I was talking to a

representative on the phone, I was doing that and everyone was sitting

around snickering at me. One even hid my stapler and would not let

me use theirs. I got them back good. I took their calendar where

they kept track of all their appointments and things they had

to do and hid it. Someone place a real looking rubber mouse in a

trap and placed it in one of the offices right near a girls desk.

She screamed while she was on the phone...everyone got a kick out of

that.

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Guest guest

Actually San Diego,and the campus is in the scene where Mcgillis chases

Tom Cruise with her little car in Top Gun.

Mac

Of course, the payback is worse!!!!

They took all the cut up paper out of the trash bin and placed it

on top of everything inside my desk once, every drawer. Even the

little tiny punch pieces.

It took me a long time to clean it out. While I was talking to a

representative on the phone, I was doing that and everyone was sitting

around snickering at me. One even hid my stapler and would not let

me use theirs. I got them back good. I took their calendar where

they kept track of all their appointments and things they had

to do and hid it. Someone place a real looking rubber mouse in a

trap and placed it in one of the offices right near a girls desk.

She screamed while she was on the phone...everyone got a kick out of

that.

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____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

http://answers. yahoo.com/ dir/?link= list & sid= 396545367

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Guest guest

Maybe I was thinking of something near Langley. I thought the Navy had a very

good culinary arts school in VA.

MaC

Bob Aragon wrote:

Actually San Diego,and the campus is in the scene where Mcgillis chases

Tom Cruise with her little car in Top Gun.

Mac

Of course, the payback is worse!!!!

They took all the cut up paper out of the trash bin and placed it

on top of everything inside my desk once, every drawer. Even the

little tiny punch pieces.

It took me a long time to clean it out. While I was talking to a

representative on the phone, I was doing that and everyone was sitting

around snickering at me. One even hid my stapler and would not let

me use theirs. I got them back good. I took their calendar where

they kept track of all their appointments and things they had

to do and hid it. Someone place a real looking rubber mouse in a

trap and placed it in one of the offices right near a girls desk.

She screamed while she was on the phone...everyone got a kick out of

that.

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____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

http://answers. yahoo.com/ dir/?link= list & sid= 396545367

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Guest guest

Well... the suspense is killing me. What branch are you in? (and are you

enlisted or an 'O' ?)

Mac

Of course, the payback is worse!!!!

They took all the cut up paper out of the trash bin and placed it

on top of everything inside my desk once, every drawer. Even the

little tiny punch pieces.

It took me a long time to clean it out. While I was talking to a

representative on the phone, I was doing that and everyone was sitting

around snickering at me. One even hid my stapler and would not let

me use theirs. I got them back good. I took their calendar where

they kept track of all their appointments and things they had

to do and hid it. Someone place a real looking rubber mouse in a

trap and placed it in one of the offices right near a girls desk.

She screamed while she was on the phone...everyone got a kick out of

that.

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Hmmm. Good question. A nasal decongestant may help relieve the pain by opening

the ear and nasal passages. Drinking plenty of water through out the flight

could help as well. But next time I see anyone from our Flight Surgeons office

I'll ask.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I

have a relative that everytime she goes in a airplane, her

ears hurt so bad...the doctor has tried medication and they

have also tried her chewing gum and other things. Do you

have any good ideas how to prevent the pain following the flight?

Surely, someone in the airforce has gone through that.

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I haven't heard about too many people with ear problems from flying in the Air

Force. But anyone with inner problems wouldn't pass the entrance physical for

the jobs that require a lot of flying. Like pilots for instance.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote:

Thanks...I will pass the info along.

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I meant inner ear problems and not just inner problems. :-)

MaC

MaC wrote: I haven't heard

about too many people with ear problems from flying in the Air Force. But

anyone with inner problems wouldn't pass the entrance physical for the jobs that

require a lot of flying. Like pilots for instance.

MaC

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Not off hand. I can dig some stuff up and repost. I know there were times they

gave my wife low doses of morphine or other derivatives for pain for short

periods of time.

Bob Aragon wrote:

By the way MaC, I wanted to update you and abajann. The liver doctor told me

that he thought it was time to seek a pain

doctor so I saw my wife's doc last week. He prescribed the duragesic patch.

It's fentynyl. I tried it for three days, and

stopped it. Im waiting to speak with him, I didnt like the way I felt on it. A

lot of side effect for a little benefit. Are either of you

famialier with this drug ?

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I know you must be frustrated to no end. And it's unfortunate the America's

health system is the way it is. I wish Congress would get off it's duff and fix

it and make it work and make it the model system for the rest of the world to

envy. Remember the days when America was like that? Instead health care seems

to have only become a political rant. All the while you and others are left in a

sea of bureaucracy trying to take care your of loved ones.

And that's not even going into dental coverage which in of itself is another

nightmare. I don't know about others with cirrhosis, but my wife always had

bleeding gums, so I know keeping your teeth healthy is important also and

sometimes overlooked.

An internal medicine doctor would be good. Are you close enough to a bigger city

in the case of having to be referred?

You know I wish you and your husband all the best. When you get down, or

frustrated, just remember... God never gives us more than we can handle.

MaC

abijann <no_reply > wrote: I am

sure you did fine. When you post here, I can tell your

mind is clear and functioning at full capacity. As for me,

it is up and down all the time. Let us know when you receive

that promotion. Extra dollars always come in handy.

That is until the government or insurance takes it away from you.

I haven't really been studying the liver of late, I've been into

the cells and their development more. I think that is why I

haven't posted as much. I've got tons of work to do here in

the next couple weeks and I don't know where the energy to get

it done will come from....If you have any to spare, send it my

way. I guess that one doctor who said he didn't know for

certain whether he could accept our insurance has made his

final decision not to go with it. My husband went to him

for over 20 years now and now we have to locate another

Primary care for him. No one is accepting patients. I would

like to get him into someone in Internal Medicine, so they

don't give him something that will harm his liver knowing he

has had a transplant. He is tired of traveling hours to doctors

now and wants to get one close to home. Problem is, is that

the doctors don't stick around here often enough and tend

to leave in very short time periods...that is fine for me,

but not for him.

---------------------------------

Be a PS3 game guru.

Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

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