Re: commercials butchering songs

[Guest guest]

Neil wrote:

>Okay, if someone casually uttered " AC / DC " without a clear context would

>first think of " alternating or direct current " or a " loud-mouthed Aussie

>rock band " ? I have heard their noise but have been unable to appreciate its

>artistic value.

I'd think " bisexual. " But I seem to be " deaf " to most music.

Meaning: I listen to the same music I've listened to all my

life, adding maybe two or three new musicians per decade.

That pace keeps me ignorant of most music that everyone else

knows about, whether they like it or not.

I may be one of the only people of my generation in the U.S.

who does not recognize music by the Grateful Dead.

Jane (admitting to yet one more " slow " area of brain)

[Guest guest]

Re: commercials butchering songs

> Neil wrote:

> >Okay, if someone casually uttered " AC / DC " without a clear context

would

> >first think of " alternating or direct current " or a " loud-mouthed Aussie

> >rock band " ? I have heard their noise but have been unable to appreciate

its

> >artistic value.

>

> I'd think " bisexual. " But I seem to be " deaf " to most music.

> Meaning: I listen to the same music I've listened to all my

> life, adding maybe two or three new musicians per decade.

> That pace keeps me ignorant of most music that everyone else

> knows about, whether they like it or not.

>

> I may be one of the only people of my generation in the U.S.

> who does not recognize music by the Grateful Dead.

>

> Jane (admitting to yet one more " slow " area of brain)

Intelligence has nothing to do with memorising junk info emanating from our

all-pervasive mass media and appreciation of music has little to do with

exposure to the latest mass-marketed pop bands, though some will claim to

have humble origins. Between the ages of 10 and 18 I'd go through phases of

admiring different genres and having favourites bands and musicians, usually

identifying my own worldview with the music's ambiance, but they all sold

out to commercialism in the end. Rather than being a force of radical

change, dissent or social revolution, the pop business is part and parcel of

globalisation, an attempt to have the whole world singing and dancing to the

same beat, with the same idols and the same myth of consumerism. It has been

proven how background music in clothing stores affects customers' buying

patterns. If rock music is so rebellious, why do greedy multinationals love

to use it to boost sales? That said, I like some rythms and melodies

produced by commercial artists, but not the way they are used.

In the land of opera and classical music I found it almost impossible to

tune in to a radio station without Anglo-American pop, rock and rap. Whole

piazze were filled with local bands imitating Deep Purple at full blast.

Indeed Pavarotti is probably more famous abroad than in Italy itself. Even

state radio broadcast a fair dose of " international pop " . The level of mass

brainwashing is so great, that Italians begin to wonder why their musicians

are not as talented as their Anglo-American cousins or feel they need to

sing in English to reach an international audience. So localised conformists

of yesteryear have gone international...... As for The Greatful Dead, hey

they're even Bill Gates' Encyclopaedia (Encarta).

Must admit though I've long listened to a lot stuff by Bob Dylan and Joan

Baez.

Neil

[Guest guest]

>

> I may be one of the only people of my generation in the U.S.

> who does not recognize music by the Grateful Dead.

I almost certainly would not either. (I'm 33.) I wouldn't recognize music by

any other pop group, either; I know essentially nothing about pop music, unless

you put Denver in that category. This distinguished me, to say the least,

from my peers growing up (all through grad school), in that I knew far more

about Dvorak and Saint-Saens than any pop musicians.

Doug

[Guest guest]

> >

>

> > I may be one of the only people of my generation in the U.S.

> > who does not recognize music by the Grateful Dead.

> I almost certainly would not either. (I'm 33.) I wouldn't recognize

> music by any other pop group, either; I know essentially nothing about

I only recognize one song by the Grateful Dead. However, I have an

auditory memory, so if I hear a particular artist enough times, I can

usually say " That's a song by --- " even if I've never heard it before. I

recognize actors by their voices rather than faces.

Iris

Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

Proud to be Canuckistanian

Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

[Guest guest]

--- " Iris M. Gray " wrote:

>

>

> > >

> >

> > > I may be one of the only people of my generation

> in the U.S.

> > > who does not recognize music by the Grateful

> Dead.

>

> > I almost certainly would not either. (I'm 33.) I

> wouldn't recognize

> > music by any other pop group, either; I know

> essentially nothing about

-----------I grew up, in the sixties, listening to all

the early rock and roll on the radio, as my father had

it on a lot.

My poor son has grown up with the music in

the house being only reggae or the classical music

station. When driving, if I don't have my reggae

tapes, I may flip around on the radio. Occasionally

something catches my ear, and I do like the

Wallflowers, Jakob Dylan's band. And on occassion on

the R & B stations are singers I like; Erykah Badu, Macy

Gray, India.Arie; and those are more eccentric singers

than the usual groom-the-booty singers.

Nanne

>

> I only recognize one song by the Grateful Dead.

> However, I have an

> auditory memory, so if I hear a particular artist

> enough times, I can

> usually say " That's a song by --- " even if I've

> never heard it before. I

> recognize actors by their voices rather than faces.

>

> Iris

>

>

> Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

> Proud to be Canuckistanian

> Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

> Toastmasters website:

> http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Iris wrote:

>I only recognize one song by the Grateful Dead. However, I have an

>auditory memory, so if I hear a particular artist enough times, I can

>usually say " That's a song by --- " even if I've never heard it before. I

>recognize actors by their voices rather than faces.

I recognize actors by their voices, too, but with singers

it's harder for me because of al the added " noise " /music.

Jane

[Guest guest]

I never kept up with the music of my own generation, instead listening to the

music my mother listened to. In the sixties, that meant folk groups like The

Kingston Trio and The Seekers, although she also listened to the Supremes and

Sonny & Cher. In the seventies she had moved on to Dionne Warwick and Rod

, among others.

When I was in my teens, everywhere I looked I would see a picture of an

enormous pair of lips with a tongue sticking out (usually sketched on my

friend's notebooks or stuck on their clothing) and had no clue at the time that

it was the Rolling Stones' logo. I was in my mid-thirties when I found that out,

in fact.

In the late seventies, I did learn a *little* more about popular music, having

developed a perseveration for Casey Kasem's " American Top 40 " radio program. I

recorded that on my cassette recorder each week, but could not remember for the

life of me what group sang what song. I think I listened more for the trivia

than the music.

And you can just imagine how others my age reacted when I happened to like

ragtime (that had been a fascination ever since the movie " The Sting " introduced

me to Joplin).

Re: commercials butchering songs

--- " Iris M. Gray " wrote:

>

>

> > >

> >

> > > I may be one of the only people of my generation

> in the U.S.

> > > who does not recognize music by the Grateful

> Dead.

>

> > I almost certainly would not either. (I'm 33.) I

> wouldn't recognize

> > music by any other pop group, either; I know

> essentially nothing about

-----------I grew up, in the sixties, listening to all

the early rock and roll on the radio, as my father had

it on a lot.

My poor son has grown up with the music in

the house being only reggae or the classical music

station. When driving, if I don't have my reggae

tapes, I may flip around on the radio. Occasionally

something catches my ear, and I do like the

Wallflowers, Jakob Dylan's band. And on occassion on

the R & B stations are singers I like; Erykah Badu, Macy

Gray, India.Arie; and those are more eccentric singers

than the usual groom-the-booty singers.

Nanne

>

> I only recognize one song by the Grateful Dead.

> However, I have an

> auditory memory, so if I hear a particular artist

> enough times, I can

> usually say " That's a song by --- " even if I've

> never heard it before. I

> recognize actors by their voices rather than faces.

>

> Iris

>

>

> Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin

> Proud to be Canuckistanian

> Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/

> Toastmasters website:

> http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 07:52 AM 1/13/03 -0800, Jane Meyerding wrote:

>But I seem to be " deaf " to most music.

>Meaning: I listen to the same music I've listened to all my

>life, adding maybe two or three new musicians per decade.

Do you have amusia (Inability to recognize melodies, often accompanied by

inability to reproduce rhythm or tempo) or are you just not music-focussed?

>That pace keeps me ignorant of most music that everyone else

>knows about, whether they like it or not.

A lot of the new stuff that's come out is Greek to me (less than Greek,

actually, since I studied Greek successfully in college.) With a few rare

exceptions, I usually don't notice a musician or band until they've been on

the public radar for at least ten years. I'm very music-oriented, though,

playing piano since age four informally and lessons since around age seven

and have picked up about half a dozen other instruments since then.

>I may be one of the only people of my generation in the U.S.

>who does not recognize music by the Grateful Dead.

I recognize it and it even reminds me of happytimes with friends but as

music-for-music's sake it grates on me if I actually listen to it (rather

than sing along to it where I can't hear it) because Phil and Jerry (the

singers) are HORRIBLY out of tune whenever they sing.

>Jane (admitting to yet one more " slow " area of brain)

I've got plenty of those myself!

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> When I was in my teens, everywhere I looked I would see a picture of an

>enormous pair of lips with a tongue sticking out (usually sketched on my

>friend's notebooks or stuck on their clothing) and had no clue at the time

>that it was the Rolling Stones' logo. I was in my mid-thirties when I

>found >that out, in fact.

A year or two after my mother died in 1995, a friend from the

other side of the country sent me a strange-looking but

appealing bright-turquoise bear she had bought at a garage

sale for 50 cents. Shortly thereafter, (my local

friend) found a t-shirt for me at a garage sale; the t-shirt

had a ring of that same kind of bear dancing on it.

Must have been a year or two after that when someone told

me the bear was " a Grateful Dead bear. " I still don't know

why the GD had a type of bear created for them, or what

they used the bear for.

Jane

[Guest guest]

I wrote:

>>But I seem to be " deaf " to most music.

>>Meaning: I listen to the same music I've listened to all my

>>life, adding maybe two or three new musicians per decade.

and Sparrow responded:

>Do you have amusia (Inability to recognize melodies, often accompanied by

>inability to reproduce rhythm or tempo) or are you just not music-focussed?

No, my musical sense is fine. I played violin all through my

pre-college years. Apparently the other expectation for me (if

I didn't become a lawyer) was that I'd be a violinist. My

family listened to classical music, Pete Seeger, the Weavers,

and union songs when I was a child. When my oldest sister

(she is seven years older than I am) was about 14, she went

through a phase of listening to " top 40 " music on the radio.

Unfortunately, that was the era when Pat Boone had a hit

with " Love Letters in the Sand. "

Oh, that reminds me. I had the good fortune to discover a

fun radio program about a year before it went off the air

(which happened at least a year ago now, I guess). It was

called " Flipside Fifties, " and all the DJs (as with all the

music DJs on that PRI station) were volunteer enthusiasts.

They really knew their stuff. The most fascinating edition

of Flipside Fifties was one where the DJ played original

versions and then the " cover " versions of a whole bunch of

the music that turned up on the " top 40 " when my sister

was listening to it. Black artists would get a hit on the

R & B charts, and then the record companies would bowlderize

the lyrics, sugar-coat the music, and have the same song

recorded by someone like Pat Boone. Some of the " white "

versions are hilarious when you have a chance to compare

them to the real deal.

My musical tastes are eclectic. I still listen to classical,

still listen to the " protest " and folk music of the 1960s,

and pick up one or two new CDs per year after hearing a

review of them on the radio (NPR or PRI). The groups I've

discovered through that method include Squirrel Nut

Zippers and 3 Mustapha 3. Also Cheryl Weaver (who is alive

and touring) and Lee Morse (jazz singer whose career began

in the 1920s). My two favorite radio programs are " Vintage

Jazz " (all from the 1920s and early 1930s, with a DJ who

must have a least a touch of ASpie he's so knowledgeable

about this subject, purely out of love) and " American

Routes " (an eclectic show that plays " roots rock " and

blues and jazz and cajun; I don't like all the music in

every show, but I enjoy the variety -- and none of it

is junk).

Oh, another favorite CD that I got after hearing it on

the radio is " The Manhattan Brothers, " a jazzy singing

group that was popular in black South Africa in the

1940s snd 1950s.

And I shouldn't hide the fact that my brain can reproduce

an almost infinite number of songs from Broadway shows.

My *other* sister was a fan and bought records. Of course,

my knowledge in this area is limited to the records she

bought and ends abruptly when she grew up and left home.

In sum: I " see " (become aware of) music only when it is

presented to me directly. I don't " pick it up by osmosis "

the way most people (NTs) seem to. Of course, that's just

another way of saying that my contacts with other people

and with the culture around me are very limited.

Jane

[Guest guest]

At 07:04 PM 1/13/03 -0800, Jane Meyerding wrote:

>I still don't know

>why the GD had a type of bear created for them, or what

>they used the bear for.

The bear was their LSD manufacturer's logo. His nickname was Bear (the

album " Bears' Choice " is named for him) and he put images of marching and

dancing bears on his LSD.

[Guest guest]

At 07:06 PM 1/13/03 -0800, Jane Meyerding wrote:

>was listening to it. Black artists would get a hit on the

>R & B charts, and then the record companies would bowlderize

>the lyrics, sugar-coat the music, and have the same song

>recorded by someone like Pat Boone. Some of the " white "

>versions are hilarious when you have a chance to compare

>them to the real deal.

I have a Pat Boone album that's all re-makes of heavy metal songs. It's

simultaneously hilarious and wonderful.

>And I shouldn't hide the fact that my brain can reproduce

>an almost infinite number of songs from Broadway shows.

>My *other* sister was a fan and bought records. Of course,

>my knowledge in this area is limited to the records she

>bought and ends abruptly when she grew up and left home.

I love musicals!

>In sum: I " see " (become aware of) music only when it is

>presented to me directly. I don't " pick it up by osmosis "

>the way most people (NTs) seem to. Of course, that's just

>another way of saying that my contacts with other people

>and with the culture around me are very limited.

I'm not even sure what " picking it up by osmosis " would be. Other people

turn me on to interesting music, I hear someone playing music and ask what

it is and write the name down to remember it later, I tune in to the

Classic Movies channel and watch for musicals, I pick up a book of sheet

music for a couple of songs I like and learn new songs that are also in the

book -- these are all ways of having music presented to me directly by

" someone. "

What is is like to pick it up by osmosis?

[Guest guest]

I wrote:

>>In sum: I " see " (become aware of) music only when it is

>>presented to me directly. I don't " pick it up by osmosis "

>>the way most people (NTs) seem to. Of course, that's just

>>another way of saying that my contacts with other people

>>and with the culture around me are very limited.

and Sparrow responded:

>I'm not even sure what " picking it up by osmosis " would be. ...

>What is is like to pick it up by osmosis?

Well, from my POV, that's what NT people are like. For

example, when I was in elementary/jr high/high school,

the other kids all knew about the same music. I had no

idea how they found out about it (didn't occur to me

that they might talk to each other out of class), but

they all seemed to know the same things, as if they

absorbed the information out of the air. Same with

language. They all knew slang, I didn't. At some point,

everyone (except me) would be using a new word and I

would have no idea what it meant. They seemed to get

the new information about words (and clothes and

everything else uninteresting to me) automatically,

by osmosis. I was the only one unable to absorb the

information that was freely absorbed by everyone else.

That's what I meant by " picking it up by osmosis. "

Jane

[Guest guest]

At 10:15 PM 1/13/03 -0800, Jane Meyerding wrote:

>and Sparrow responded:

>>I'm not even sure what " picking it up by osmosis " would be. ...

>>What is is like to pick it up by osmosis?

>

>Well, from my POV, that's what NT people are like. For

>example, when I was in elementary/jr high/high school,

>the other kids all knew about the same music. I had no

>idea how they found out about it (didn't occur to me

>that they might talk to each other out of class), but

>they all seemed to know the same things, as if they

>absorbed the information out of the air.

The kids were like that where I went to school because everybody (except

me) had MTV and watched it all the time and talked about watching it. I

guess they pick stuff up from listening to the same radio stations, too.

> Same with

>language. They all knew slang, I didn't. At some point,

>everyone (except me) would be using a new word and I

>would have no idea what it meant.

Whenever someone used a word I couldn't figure out from context, I'd always

ask what it meant. I remember the kids all talking about " book " and people

" booking " so I asked a kid, " what does it mean when someone says they

" booked " ? " and he said, " it means they ran real fast. " I asked, " why do

they say 'book' for 'run real fast'? " and he said, " I don't know " and I

said, " okay. " I don't remember ever using the word " book " that way myself

but from then on I knew what it meant.

>They seemed to get

>the new information about words (and clothes and

>everything else uninteresting to me) automatically,

>by osmosis.

I don't know for sure where they get the clothes stuff. One year my mother

got me a copy of the back-to-school issue of " Seventeen " magazine and I

noticed that a certain type of girl at school always looked like she

stepped off a page of the magazine so I guess the kids figure out what to

wear from reading the same magazines and maybe from some music videos and

movies.

> I was the only one unable to absorb the

>information that was freely absorbed by everyone else.

>

>That's what I meant by " picking it up by osmosis. "

I don't think they're really picking it up from osmosis like it looks to

you. I think they're just talking to each other and sharing their

information sources with one another. I think that the people that look

like they're just " picking it up by osmosis " are doing the same things we

do -- getting turned on to new ideas and things by other people calling

them to their attention -- but they are more social, have a bigger social

network and are more interested in clothes and certain types of movies and

TV shows than you or I were when we were in school.

[Guest guest]

Neil Gardner wrote:

> Intelligence has nothing to do with memorising junk info emanating from our

> all-pervasive mass media

You'd think it was, to look at the Wechsler IQ test. Three of the verbal

subsections are

dependent on rote regurgitation of information. I excelled in these areas; they

were my

highest scores. I do not, though, think that the ability to parrot back

information is

intelligence.

> and appreciation of music has little to do with

> exposure to the latest mass-marketed pop bands, though some will claim to

> have humble origins. Between the ages of 10 and 18 I'd go through phases of

> admiring different genres and having favourites bands and musicians, usually

> identifying my own worldview with the music's ambiance, but they all sold

> out to commercialism in the end.

I personally do not care if any of the bands I like sold out, as long as the

product (the

music) is still pleasant for me to hear. I like the music, the way it sounds,

and that is

all that matters. How that music came to be, the artistry involved, who wrote

it, whether

it is a product of a good band or simply good engineering... irrelevant. If the

combination of sounds is pleasant to me, I like it, whether it be corporate rock

or

whatever. I like such " uncool " and unpopular " artists " as Milli Vanilli and

Vanilla Ice

(one song only, in the latter case). Both of those artists were hugely popular

in their

time, but now they are seen as not cool, and therefore unworthy of listening.

As I see

it, my Milli Vanilli CD sounds exactly the same as when it went platinum, and

was on every

radio station. I do not care less that Rob and Fab turned out to be fakes. It

sounds the

same. I do not care that Milli Vanilli is not " cool. " I do not base my musical

tastes

upon " coolness factor. " That is true in both directions; I will not like music

because it

is cool, nor will I dislike it because it is not. Only the reaction I have to

the sounds

coming from the speakers matters.

> Rather than being a force of radical

> change, dissent or social revolution,

Who says it has to be any of that? It is something pleasant to pass the time.

Video

games and TV sitcoms are not forces of radical change, dissent, or social

revolution

either. They're entertainment, nothing more, nothing significant. I don't care

what the

message in a given song may be... I like a number of songs that have lyrics that

I find

reprehensible. I may even sing along to the lyrics I hate. To me, it's about

the sound

and the texture of the words, not their meaning. When I listen to music, I am

not parsing

the words as if they have meaning. They could just as easily be nonsense words.

Sometimes (many times), I have been listening to, and singing along with, a song

for many

months before it dawns on me what the song is about. I hear the words, and

sometimes

memorize them, but the meanings are never decoded. They're not really relevant,

either.

> the pop business is part and parcel of

> globalisation, an attempt to have the whole world singing and dancing to the

> same beat, with the same idols and the same myth of consumerism.

Consiracies everywhere...

It's not about anything like that. It is about making money. The record

companies would

sell us CDs of white noise if we would buy them. They do not care what effect

it has on

the populace... it's all about money. It is the instinctive herd behavior of

the masses

that is the force toward global conformism. The record companies, like any

other

corporation, could not care less whether the world is homogenized or not. If

they can

make money, they're happy. I do not know why you see a conspiracy everywhere

you look...

it just is not so.

> It has been

> proven how background music in clothing stores affects customers' buying

> patterns. If rock music is so rebellious, why do greedy multinationals love

> to use it to boost sales?

Because it boosts sales. Like I said, it's all about the money. It has nothing

to do

with anything other than money. Cultural ideals, revolution, et cetera, is

irrelevant.

They would pitch Lawrence Welk tomorrow as rebellious if it would make them

money. The

pitches are a means to that end, and not a method of globalizing anything.

I never saw rock music as rebellious. I don't even know where that idea came

from. When

I look at the documentaries on the so-called " British invasion " of the Beatles,

which is

what I think of when I hear people talk of rebellious rock and roll, I see herds

of kids

acting the same, copying the haircuts, moving in lockstep. That is hardly

rebellious, in

my book. Maybe if I were one of those hive-minded types, it would seem

rebellious because

the previous generation does not like the loud guitars or the " long " hair, but

all those

kids " rebelling " together is just a change in which norms are being conformed

to. That

may be rebellion against the parents' norms, but it is conformity within that

group.

I suppose that inherent conformists would see that as rebellion, or

nonconformity. I

never saw it so. When I was in middle and high school, I was abused by my peers

for not

conforming with many social norms. Music was one of them-- I did not listen to

any music

through most of that time. The pressure that was placed on me was to conform

with the

will of my peer group-- which was to like rock music. Rebelliousness? That

would have

been liking classical or opera.

> That said, I like some rythms and melodies

> produced by commercial artists, but not the way they are used.

> In the land of opera and classical music I found it almost impossible to

> tune in to a radio station without Anglo-American pop, rock and rap.

I am sure to you that was a tragedy, but to me that would mean that turning on

the radio

would be more tolerable. I have no more interest in opera or classical than,

apparently,

most Italians. I like Anglo-American pop and rock, and even a little bit of

rap. I used

to be very much into the latter, but that has not been so for about a decade.

Ironically, here in Tucson, it is nearly impossible to turn on the radio without

hearing

Mexican chi or other Spanish-language forms of music. Maybe I should find

an Italian

satellite radio station

> Whole

> piazze were filled with local bands imitating Deep Purple at full blast.

> Indeed Pavarotti is probably more famous abroad than in Italy itself. Even

> state radio broadcast a fair dose of " international pop " . The level of mass

> brainwashing is so great, that Italians begin to wonder why their musicians

> are not as talented as their Anglo-American cousins or feel they need to

> sing in English to reach an international audience.

That's not brainwashing... it is business. More than that, really: it is logic.

If there

are more English-speakers than Italian-speakers, making music in English makes

more sense.

If you are trying to get people to buy your cd, it would make sense to give

them

something they would want to buy. If those " brainwashed " bands are making music

that is

listenable, I say all the power to them, and the corporations that back them.

> So localised conformists

> of yesteryear have gone international...... As for The Greatful Dead, hey

> they're even Bill Gates' Encyclopaedia (Encarta).

> Must admit though I've long listened to a lot stuff by Bob Dylan and Joan

> Baez.

I've never heard anything by any of those three, as far as I know.

[Guest guest]

At 03:34 AM 1/14/03 -0700, Klein wrote:

>I never saw rock music as rebellious. I don't even know where that idea

came from.

It came from the 1950s when suddenly middle-class white children were

listening to black music and dancing like black people.

>> So localised conformists

>> of yesteryear have gone international...... As for The Greatful Dead, hey

>> they're even Bill Gates' Encyclopaedia (Encarta).

>> Must admit though I've long listened to a lot stuff by Bob Dylan and Joan

>> Baez.

>

>I've never heard anything by any of those three, as far as I know.

The songs you're most likely to have heard:

Grateful Dead: " truckin', got my chips cashed in, truckin' like the doo dah

man, together, more or less in line, just keep truckin' ooooooooon " or

" driving that train, high on cocaine, casey jones you'd better watch your

speed. Trouble ahead, trouble behind, and you know that notion just crossed

my mind " or " alabama get away, get away. alabama get away, get away " or

" touch of grey "

Bob Dylan: " like a rolling stone " " blowin' in the wind " " the times they are

a changin' "

Joan Baez: lots of folks songs. I'm not certain whether Baez actually ever

wrote her own music or just played other people's.

If you spend much time listening to radio stations that play " classic rock "

or " oldies " you've probably heard at least one song by one of these three.

The Dead and Baez were at Woodstock (was Dylan? I don't remember but I

don't think so) so they're fairly famous for that era.

[Guest guest]

--- Sparrow Rose Cross

wrote:

> At 03:34 AM 1/14/03 -0700, Klein wrote:

> >

> Joan Baez: lots of folks songs. I'm not certain

> whether Baez actually ever

> wrote her own music or just played other people's.

> --------I'm pretty sure she wrote " The Night They

Drove Old Dixie Down " ; she co-wrote some songs with

Dylan but not sure which ones. Pretty sure she wrote

some of her own, but I had mostly her Ballad Book

albums.

Nanne

=====

" Instead of going to an office and working, he went for long walks inside

himself using his body as a map. " --- Ianthe Brautigan, on her father

Brautigan

[Guest guest]

At 08:05 AM 1/14/03 -0800, Cerulean wrote:

>> --------I'm pretty sure she wrote " The Night They

>Drove Old Dixie Down " ;

I believe that was written by Robbie on of " The Band. "

she co-wrote some songs with

>Dylan but not sure which ones. Pretty sure she wrote

>some of her own, but I had mostly her Ballad Book

>albums.

I just asked my partner (who is a Joan Baez fan) if she ever wrote her own

songs and his answer was " she did write some of her own later, I believe. "

Really definitive answer. (not.) Sorry.

[Guest guest]

" The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down " was a big hit of Joan Baez's in the

early 1970's. I'm not sure who wrote it, but I don't think she did. You

still hear that on oldies stations sometimes--I heard it just the other day

in a store where they were playing old 70s music.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 03:53:44 -0700

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: commercials butchering songs

>

> Joan Baez: lots of folks songs. I'm not certain whether Baez actually ever

> wrote her own music or just played other people's.

[Guest guest]

Come to think of it, she may have written " Diamonds & Rust " , or at least

co-written it with someone!

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:31:46 -0700

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: commercials butchering songs

>

> I just asked my partner (who is a Joan Baez fan) if she ever wrote her own

> songs and his answer was " she did write some of her own later, I believe. "

> Really definitive answer. (not.) Sorry.

[Guest guest]

At 07:56 PM 1/14/03 -0800, Norah Willett wrote:

>Come to think of it, she may have written " Diamonds & Rust " , or at least

>co-written it with someone!

The Joan Baez web page says that she wrote both music and lyrics of

" Diamonds and Rust. " Good job! You win the prize :-)

[Guest guest]

LOL!! Another thing I remember about that song is that the band Judas

Priest did a heavy metal version in the early 1980's!

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:06:03 -0700

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: commercials butchering songs

>

> At 07:56 PM 1/14/03 -0800, Norah Willett wrote:

>> Come to think of it, she may have written " Diamonds & Rust " , or at least

>> co-written it with someone!

>

> The Joan Baez web page says that she wrote both music and lyrics of

> " Diamonds and Rust. " Good job! You win the prize :-)

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Neil danced around singing:

> > Rather than being a force of radical

> > change, dissent or social revolution, the pop business is part and

> parcel of

> > globalisation, an attempt to have the whole world singing and dancing

> to the

> > same beat, with the same idols and the same myth of consumerism.

[...]

> > of yesteryear have gone international...... As for The Greatful Dead, hey

> > they're even Bill Gates' Encyclopaedia (Encarta).

As someone that judges music almost entirely based on the lyric content, I

have to point out that the Grateful Dead do *not* belong in the

mass-produced pop section. Regardless of what the majority of Deadheads

are like, the actual songs they produced are extremely intellectual, the

majority written more in the classical tale-telling style of ancient times

that you claim to respect than anything else I've encountered. Their work

is overflowing with references to classic literature, politics, and history

-- if you are genuinely into lyric content, Neil, I highly recommend you

check out the academic-natured Annotated Grateful Dead Lyrics site:

http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/

The band Jethro Tull has a similar history of heavy political-historical

and literary/mythological influence, though JT tends to be far more

academic in nature than the Dead were. They also have been far more

diverse in their productions, running the gamut from writing orchestral

ballet music, New-Age mood music, Rennaissance-era passion plays, political

satire, you name it. Not surprisingly, an academic community has sprung up

online dedicated to annotating & interpreting the lyric content:

http://www.cupofwonder.com/

Current musicians dedicated to highly intelligent lyric storytelling

include Merchant, Katell Keineg, and Dar . While I agree

that the majority of music out there is lacking in content, and I am the

sort that needs to listen for the meaning of the words rather than the

sound, I do know that there are excellent modern alternatives to popular

culture. (I see nothing wrong with enjoying non-academic fun songs, and I

have a ton of them myself -- I'm a big fan of Barenaked Ladies for example

-- but I do have a general preference for taxing my brain.) If you or

anyone else would like to check some of them out, just let me know and I'll

recommend a few titles that you can check out quietly on Kazaa or the other

trading services. :^)

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

It wasn't a dark and stormy night.

It should have been, but there's the weather for you.

-- Pratchett & Gaiman: " Good Omens "

[Guest guest]

At 11:03 PM 1/14/03 -0800, DeGraf wrote:

>Their work

>is overflowing with references to classic literature, politics, and history

You're going to laugh, but another band that fits that description is the

heavy metal band " Iron Maiden. "

>While I agree

>that the majority of music out there is lacking in content, and I am the

>sort that needs to listen for the meaning of the words rather than the

>sound, I do know that there are excellent modern alternatives to popular

>culture.

I always think of the band " Rage Against the Machine " when you start

talking the anti-corporate conspiracy stuff, Neil. You'd probably really

hate the band but their politics are very close to yours. (And I think

they're a top 40 band these days. *g*)

[Guest guest]

--- Sparrow Rose Cross

wrote:

> >

> I always think of the band " Rage Against the

> Machine " when you start

> talking the anti-corporate conspiracy stuff, Neil.

> You'd probably really

> hate the band but their politics are very close to

> yours. (And I think

> they're a top 40 band these days. *g*)

>

--------Say, don't forget the Clash! I think " Lost

in the Supermarket " could be an official AS theme

song, lolol. I was deeply saddened when I found

out Joe Strummer died in December at age 50. sigh.

Nanne

=====

" Instead of going to an office and working, he went for long walks inside

himself using his body as a map. " --- Ianthe Brautigan, on her father

Brautigan