Re: a question for the female folk.....

[Guest guest]

jypsy dreamed lazily into the stars:

>Does anyone know of any all-womens Aspie group or list?

>If there was one, would you be interested in joining?

The phrase " there's no such thing as too much email " comes to mind...so I'd

say yes. :^)

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" When they come to write the list of Great Battle Cries

Of The World, 'Erm, excuse me' won't be one of them. "

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Sourcery'

[Guest guest]

> Hi,

>

> Does anyone know of any all-womens Aspie group or list?

>

> If there was one, would you be interested in joining?

>

> -jypsy

>

Afraid I've never been a female type of female. Meaning interested in

specifically female issues. So I wouldn't be interested, even if I had

the time for another group, which I don't.

By the way, this seems like a good time to thank you for your web

site. It was one of the first I found when I started exploring

Aspergers and it's been of tremendous value to me.

Catana

[Guest guest]

catana37 dreamed lazily into the stars:

>Afraid I've never been a female type of female. Meaning interested in

>specifically female issues. So I wouldn't be interested, even if I had

>the time for another group, which I don't.

*laughing*

I've never been interested in female-type issues AT ALL -- to the point

that I'd rather endure Chinese water torture with acid than touch Barbies,

buy clothes, or reproduce... However, I do know that autistic females tend

to be very different from the males in a variety of ways, and a new group

might be the perfect place to discuss that. :^)

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" When they come to write the list of Great Battle Cries

Of The World, 'Erm, excuse me' won't be one of them. "

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Sourcery'

[Guest guest]

At 09:39 AM 10/11/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>catana37 dreamed lazily into the stars:

> >Afraid I've never been a female type of female. Meaning interested in

> >specifically female issues. So I wouldn't be interested, even if I had

> >the time for another group, which I don't.

>

>*laughing*

>I've never been interested in female-type issues AT ALL -- to the point

>that I'd rather endure Chinese water torture with acid than touch Barbies,

>buy clothes, or reproduce... However, I do know that autistic females tend

>to be very different from the males in a variety of ways, and a new group

>might be the perfect place to discuss that. :^)

>

>

Tell you where I'm coming from.....

I started my Pen Pal directories (http://PlanetAutism.com/penpal7.htm) in

1999, the " spectrum only " lists first, followed later by the " parent &

professionals " lists, because some people wrote and said they wanted such a

thing. To date, 217 people have joined the email spectrum list, 517 have

joined the parent email list, very few have left, there are also some folks

on the snail mail lists (42 spectrum, 60 parents).

Today I was contacted by a woman who was looking for resources for Aspie

women.

" What about women with Asperger Syndrome?

I am 27 and was diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome a year ago. All the

other " Aspies " I have met have been male, and sad to say I haven't felt

any rapport with them. Most Internet resources are aimed at parents of

autistic children. Are there any resources for Asperger women? "

So after suggesting a few things, I asked just exactly what resources she

was looking for...

" What sort of resources am I looking for? I suppose advice mainly:

general advice on living as a woman with Aspergers, as well as

non-gender specific advice on issues such as making friends (as opposed

to merely meeting people), getting onto the property ladder, etc. I

belong to an Asperger support group but it's impossible to have any kind

of meaningful conversation or serious discussion there - it always

degenerates into inane banter, often about bodily functions. Last time

it was about condoms, previously it was about constipation. To make

matters worse, the neurotypical group leaders all talk down to me.

Believe me, I am perfectly capable of knowing when I'm being patronized!

(at this point I suggested she join another group!!!)

Assuming that my gender is the principal reason why I don't share the

male Aspies' sense of humour, another useful resource might be a support

group specifically for Asperger women... "

************

So..... I looked... and I could find no group for Aspie women (or lets say

" females " and not be " age-ist " as well as sexist) and though there are a

thousand lists.... if there is a population that could be served by one and

doesn't have one..... If like the Pen Pal directory the want and need is

there.....

even though for 8 years now (once I left irc and my op duties on #asperger

& #autism) I have avoided running a list, aside from my local Aspergers

Society list

and

even though I too am anything but a female type female - though I've done

reproduction... a few times, had things not heated up so fast I may have

gotten a few comments in on that whole issue a while back...... I think

it's safe to say Aspie women are different from NT women.... even aspie moms.

and

even though I don't go to lists for " support " or do a good job of

" supporting " people, other than with info, resources and connections (and

setting up support systems now and then)............

this idea seems to me to have some merit. So.. I thought I'd run it by

y'all....

thoughts?

-jypsy

________________________________

Ooops....Wrong Planet! Syndrome

Autism Spectrum Resources

www.PlanetAutism.com

jypsy@...

[Guest guest]

At 04:36 PM 10/11/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Afraid I've never been a female type of female. Meaning interested in

>specifically female issues. So I wouldn't be interested, even if I had

>the time for another group, which I don't.

>

>By the way, this seems like a good time to thank you for your web

>site. It was one of the first I found when I started exploring

>Aspergers and it's been of tremendous value to me.

>

>Catana

Weird.... I only JUST got your reply... after 's & Doug's.... You are

most welcome.... as I explained, part of what I do is serve (or attempt to)

the people who visit and use my site so if someone tells me they want

something and I can't find it and it's something I can create.... a page

about something or a serve like the pen pal directories or possibly an all

female Aspie list.... well, why not?

The reason I have avoided having a list " connected " to my site has been....

I don't want the responsibility of moderating a " big " list. Even an

unmoderated list can get out of hand and needs to be " dealt " with and I

don't want to be the ONE dealing with it. I don't have the interpersonal

skills.

It would also become... what it became... out of my control (kinda like my

kids)... good or bad and reflect on my webpage as a whole. Given the

general dissatisfaction with lists out there (not to mention the number of

them) it's a risk I'm not really keen on taking.

BUT

Like the local Aspie Society list, it wouldn't need to be " connected " with

my site. If there is enough interest, there will be moderators. And there

are good lists (like this one) (and my kids are turning out ok too) and

there isn't, near as I can find, a female Aspie list.

So, like I said, the idea has merit, if the need and want is there maybe

I'll put it together

and if any of you ever have any other ideas that fall into this criteria of

what it is I do and/or can do..... you know my email address....

all the best

-jypsy

________________________________

Ooops....Wrong Planet! Syndrome

Autism Spectrum Resources

www.PlanetAutism.com

jypsy@...

[Guest guest]

At 10:48 AM 10/11/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>jypsy [ janet norman-bain ] dreamed lazily into the stars:

> >The reason I have avoided having a list " connected " to my site has been....

> >I don't want the responsibility of moderating a " big " list.

>

>Hmmm, I've been chief mod for lists of up to 2,000 people in the past...no

>flamewars or arguments can even come close to touching what I saw

>there.

I believe it. At one time, WAY back when, I was on EVERY Autism list and

read EVERY post. Not many of those lists I would have wanted to moderate

though there were a couple of good ones. I co-founded #aspergers on irc and

was an op there and on #autism but even BEING there was too stressful....

too much like real life, opping was a whole other nightmare, even on

#aspergers at times.

>If there is interest and you'd prefer to avoid the stress, I can

>set it up & run it. (I may have stressors in my life, but listmail

>generally isn't one of them.

I don't have a problem with setting it up and running it, if there is an

interest, and I see no reason to directly " associate " it with my site, I

don't directly associate the PEI Aspergers Society list with my site, but

if it is set up I think it should have moderators and I'd be happy to be

one, just not the only one, like I said, I don't have the skills

thanx for the offer, I'll pencil you in

-jypsy

>

________________________________

Ooops....Wrong Planet! Syndrome

Autism Spectrum Resources

www.PlanetAutism.com

jypsy@...

[Guest guest]

*laughing*

I've never been interested in female-type issues AT ALL -- to the point

that I'd rather endure Chinese water torture with acid than touch Barbies,

buy clothes, or reproduce... However, I do know that autistic females tend

to be very different from the males in a variety of ways, and a new group

might be the perfect place to discuss that.  :^)

Hmph...... I don't see a 'female' AS list as discussing 'Barbies' and

'clothing' at all..... but may be a place where some may be more comfortable

discussing female health issues, sexuality issues, prior abuse issues, etc. etc.

Nanne

[Guest guest]

I think

it's safe to say Aspie women are different from NT women.... even aspie moms.

 and

even though I don't go to lists for " support " or do a good job of

" supporting " people, other than with info, resources and connections (and

setting up support systems now and then)............

this idea seems to me to have some merit. So.. I thought I'd run it by

y'all....

thoughts?

-jypsy

Let me know if you form one, Jypsy, I'd join it.

Nanne

[Guest guest]

ViridianThumm@... dreamed lazily into the stars:

> I don't know of any, but yeah, I'd probably be interested in joining in

> case in the future I have any other relationship issues, so i don't look

> like a nimwit to all near and yonder....lol

Nimwit... I like that term -- describes me perfectly, particularly in a

relationship context... Sometimes I think that if I approach my friends

with one more " what the bleep does THIS mean? " question, one of them is

going to strangle me on a strand of networking cable!

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" When they come to write the list of Great Battle Cries

Of The World, 'Erm, excuse me' won't be one of them. "

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Sourcery'

[Guest guest]

However, I do know that autistic females tend

> to be very different from the males in a variety of ways, and a new

group

> might be the perfect place to discuss that. :^)

>

Hmm. From what I've been reading here (and in the archives) the

differences seem to be more a matter of particular Aspy

characteristics than of gender. I had a wonderful marriage and two

children, and while I can look back now and see just why I had

difficulties with wifehood and parenthood, they're much more related

to my neurological tweaks than to being female.

I haven't read the others' responses yet, so it will be interesting to

see how they feel about it.

Catana

[Guest guest]

Nimwit... I like that term -- describes me perfectly, particularly in a

relationship context...  Sometimes I think that if I approach my friends

with one more " what the bleep does THIS mean? " question, one of them is

going to strangle me on a strand of networking cable!

Oh, YOU TOO????? My " translator " friends feel the same, lol....

too bad there isn't something along the lines like guide dogs for the blind,

'translator dogs' for AS folk....ha.....you know how dogs can 'read' people,

well, someone needs to invent something that can translate what they read into a

vocal box that can relay it to us.....

" Okay, Bowser, what did you make out of that guys' comment? Is he just being

a nice person or trying to flirt, or what? "

" That guys' got 'user' written all over him, hon, better stay clear of

him! " , Bowser replies.\

sigh.\

Wouldn't that be nice?

(And how I wish I'd paid attention to how my dogs have reacted to people

before in the past)

Nanne

[Guest guest]

ViridianThumm@... dreamed lazily into the stars:

> Hmph...... I don't see a 'female' AS list as discussing 'Barbies' and

> 'clothing' at all..... but may be a place where some may be more

> comfortable discussing female health issues, sexuality issues, prior

> abuse issues, etc. etc.

Heh, that's what I was thinking too...especially since I tend to have a

sense of humor about life, and I dare not joke here for fear of causing

distress to the males in particular. (No, I am not into venting -- but on

the last list I brought up the topic of fearing touch, for example, one

guy's response was that aspie men supposedly greatly enjoy having total

strangers molest their mates. He meant well, but still -- that wasn't

quite the reply I needed at the moment!)

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" When they come to write the list of Great Battle Cries

Of The World, 'Erm, excuse me' won't be one of them. "

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Sourcery'

[Guest guest]

" Okay, Bowser, what did you make out of that guys' comment?  Is he just being a

nice person or trying to flirt, or what? "

    " That guys' got 'user' written all over him, hon, better stay clear of him! " ,

Bowser replies.\

Oh, oh, oh......... thank you, , you inadvertantly spurred on some ideas

to make me want to go home and work on a new cartoon strip: " Bowser, the

Åsperger Translator Dog "

!!!

see ya!

Nanne

[Guest guest]

> too bad there isn't something along the lines like guide dogs

> for the blind, 'translator dogs' for AS folk....ha.....you know how

> dogs can 'read' people, well, someone needs to invent something

> that can translate what they read into a vocal box that can relay

> it to us.....

Yes, that would be nice... but it wouldn't help. It's not just a

question of having an interpreter, you also have to have a person

who's willing and able to listen to the interpreter. There were a

large number of people, for example, who kept telling my now-

girlfriend for quite some time that I was in love with her and was

trying to conceal my feelings for her (and doing a *very* bad job of

it, of course). She kept insisting that I couldn't possibly have

feelings for her, even though to everyone else it was as obvious as a

pie in the face. :-) So Bowser *was* giving her the answer, but she

wasn't hearing it.

Personally, I've always liked the idea of having seeing third-eye

dogs for the psychically blind.

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

catana37 dreamed lazily into the stars:

>There are a couple of thousand posts I haven't read yet, so I may have

>missed something, but so far, this group comes across as exceptionally

>open to anything that anyone wants to bring up.

It is easily the most tolerant list I've wandered onto thus far...

> My guess is that the

>men here would be glad to learn more about the female psyche and

>problems, rather than brushing them off.

Ah, but keep in mind not all of the females are likely to want to speak up

on those topics where the males can read/learn/reply. One quick example

would be the number of AS females that are relationship/male-avoidant and

AS males whose strong desire for companionship has led to massive

frustration -- the former discussing ways to avoid the latter on a mixed

list would be too likely to cause trouble. I know that with some of my

male-aspie friends, I can't even mention anything that suggests the

*concept* of a female friend ignoring/abandoning anyone without getting

them upset. Relatedly, I suspect that at least some of the

avoidant-females would rather not be indirectly giving tips to the males on

how to read their psyche or lower their shields.

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" When they come to write the list of Great Battle Cries

Of The World, 'Erm, excuse me' won't be one of them. "

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Sourcery'

[Guest guest]

>> catana37 dreamed lazily into the stars:

>> Afraid I've never been a female type of female. Meaning interested in

>> specifically female issues. So I wouldn't be interested, even if I had

>> the time for another group, which I don't.

> *laughing*

> I've never been interested in female-type issues AT ALL

Me neither.

> -- to the point

> that I'd rather endure Chinese water torture with acid than touch Barbies,

> buy clothes, or reproduce... However, I do know that autistic females tend

> to be very different from the males in a variety of ways, and a new group

> might be the perfect place to discuss that. :^)

No! No need for that, you can dump it all on this list.

There are already so little autistic females in the world.

If they start their own group, we men won't get any more attention.

And that would be just awful. :-)

>

>

Bennie.

[Guest guest]

Bennie dreamed lazily into the stars:

> > I've never been interested in female-type issues AT ALL

>

>Me neither.

We're agreed, then that traditional gender stuff is boring. I'm not into

playing with dolls, and theoretically neither are you. Well, not ones that

you'd discuss in public, at least. ;^)

>No! No need for that, you can dump it all on this list.

>There are already so little autistic females in the world.

Hey, we're talking another list, not another planet! Besides, you know my

email habits, I could add another five AS groups and still run out of

things to respond to on each one...admittedly my e-penpal habits are still

shaky, but I'm working on it. (Erk, speaking of which, I just noticed that

I forgot to respond to your last letter, then assumed it was your turn to

write me...ooops.)

>If they start their own group, we men won't get any more attention.

>And that would be just awful. :-)

From what you've been telling me, attention from females is not something

you generally lack. :^)

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" When they come to write the list of Great Battle Cries

Of The World, 'Erm, excuse me' won't be one of them. "

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Sourcery'

[Guest guest]

catana dreamed lazily into the stars:

>What about potential conflict between women who are

>relationship-avoidant and those who have or want relationships? That

>doesn't seem to happen here.

I can't imagine what kind of conflict would arise from that...?

The two groups (have/want and avoidant) share some of the same

members. I'm severely avoidant and go to great lengths to not get into a

non-platonic situation, yet I have a relationship. Among other things, the

experience is teaching me a myriad of new ways to avoid getting into

another one in the future. I can't quite imagine wanting one in general,

but I'm not going to knock anyone that does. :^)

mustang@... ~~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" When they come to write the list of Great Battle Cries

Of The World, 'Erm, excuse me' won't be one of them. "

-- Terry Pratchett: 'Sourcery'

[Guest guest]

DeGraf wrote:

> Ah, but keep in mind not all of the females are likely to want to speak up

> on those topics where the males can read/learn/reply. One quick example

> would be the number of AS females that are relationship/male-avoidant and

> AS males whose strong desire for companionship has led to massive

> frustration -- the former discussing ways to avoid the latter on a mixed

> list would be too likely to cause trouble. I know that with some of my

> male-aspie friends, I can't even mention anything that suggests the

> *concept* of a female friend ignoring/abandoning anyone without getting

> them upset. Relatedly, I suspect that at least some of the

> avoidant-females would rather not be indirectly giving tips to the males on

> how to read their psyche or lower their shields.

I just don't see the whole " male vs. female " thing. It is not as if there are

certain

defenses that females have and that males need to break through-- we all have

defensive

mechanisms that we have built up over the years, and any person, male or female,

can opt

to respect those defenses or to try to defeat them. I have the very same

defenses that

you do, and I would be just as vulnerable if someone decided to try to break

through them.

It's not about male and female-- it is about people choosing to stay clear of

someone's

defensive array, or to seek to get in. It is like a lock on a door... to some

of us, it

means stay out, and to others, it is a challenge. Personally, I do not want to

waste my

time trying (with intent) to break through some female's defensive array. I

would rather

seek one that actually wants to be with me.

The way you write about females not wanting to give males tips on how to break

through the

shields, it is like you have a siege mentality, as if the males on the list are

just

hanging around waiting to break through your defenses. That just is not the

case at all,

at least with those males on this list I have known for a while. I certainly

have not

seen any of that kind of behavior here, although I have seen it referenced by

one person

you invited to the list .

I would hazard a guess that most of the males on this list would not want to

" break

through " a female's defenses to get a date or have a relationship; if that were

the case,

the males would be falling over themselves hitting on the females here, and that

has not

(AFAIK) happened. I know that even when I was actively trying to find someone

via the

singles ads, I never saw ASD lists as a place to go " pick up chicks. " I stuck

to the

singles ads because those were full of females that I knew wanted a

relationship, even if

that meant that mosr or all of the females I contacted were NT. I would never

make an

advance on someone that I was not reasonably certain wanted me to make that

advance.

Perhaps that has been part of my lack of success, but that is just the way I

think, and I

do not intend to change that. If I happened to befriend a neat female on one of

the

lists, and later to develop feelings for her, that would be one thing, but I

never have

nor would set out to pick someone up that was clear in her opposition to being

picked up.

You ultimately have the power of veto over someone that wants to make an advance

on you,

and while it may be psychologically difficult, if you want to terminate things,

you just

have to do it. I do not think you can just erect a big set of defenses and hope

that they

will keep you insulated from all harm, as you sit passively within those walls.

They

provide a margin of safety, but no wall is impregnable. Ultimately, you have to

decide

logically what you want, what you will accept, what you cannot tolerate, and

what you will

be willing to do to to assert those decisions. It is your choice if you let

someone get

in past your defenses; while a person can psychologically do things that make

you want to

let him in, ultimately, he will not have any success unless you let him.

No one gets past my defenses without my consent. Sometimes the other may act in

such a

way that makes me feel compelled to let that person in, but if I do, it is my

choice, and

not truly the other person " breaking through. " You are a rational being, and

you are not

under some kind of spell that takes your free will. You have control over who

gets in or

not. If you do not wish to be in a relationship, don't be. You seem to be

hoping that,

in some way, someone can tell you something that will make him opt to go away

from you,

rather than you having the power to go away from him. It seems like this may be

some sort

of a game you are playing with him... and you do not want to discuss game

strategies on a

place where he might be able to see them. You can opt to stop playing that game

whenever

you want, of course... just say NO and that will be that. No one can make you

start

playing after you say NO... if you do, it is a choice you will have made.

[Guest guest]

What about potential conflict between women who are

relationship-avoidant and those who have or want relationships? That

doesn't seem to happen here. Of course, I can understand that some

women simply don't want to discuss certain things with men present.

Catana

-----Well, for what its worth, CZ and I have corresponded/chatted for over a

year now, and I dont take any offense when she ignores my relationship-issue

posts.

Nanne

[Guest guest]

No! No need for that, you can dump it all on this list.

There are already so little autistic females in the world.

If they start their own group, we men won't get any more attention.

And that would be just awful. :-)

Bennie.

------------That's a good point, too. It seems, though, that few of the

spectrum guys respond/offer advice/ insights whatever to relationship issue

posts, or maybe its just mine they don;t. ;P

Nanne

[Guest guest]

 I'm severely avoidant and go to great lengths to not get into a

non-platonic situation, yet I have a relationship.  Among other things, the

experience is teaching me a myriad of new ways to avoid getting into

another one in the future.  I can't quite imagine wanting one in general,

but I'm not going to knock anyone that does.  :^)

--------This is confusing to me, and , not meaning to be too nosy, how are you

in a relationship? Or do you mean a platonic relationship?

Nanne

[Guest guest]

What my burning question is right now is whether I am likely to stim during

childbirth... I expect to, due to the stress and pain involved - but want to

know whether others have too.  Any takers?

sandi

Interesting question..... would it matter if you did? My kinds of stims

besides rocking or swaying are visual, maybe they are a kind of

self-hypnosis.... In doctors or dentists offices I can visually stim on a

pattern on a wall or something and find my body going into a deep kind of

relaxation.

Had an emergency C-section with Max, so pain killers/a spinal took the place

of that. If your form of stimming helps relax you, I wouldnt worry about it at

all.

Nanne

[Guest guest]

> > Personally, I've always liked the idea of having seeing

> > third-eye dogs for the psychically blind.

>

> --Parrish

>

> --------------------Hmmmm....may I borrow this line to use anytime

> I take Beyzeng with me as my 'companion dog' and people ask why he

> is there? lol

Be my guest. But it's not original material... I read it in a book

spoofing the New Age Movement about 15 years ago. So if you use it,

don't credit me. :-)

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

--- wrote:

>  I'm severely avoidant and go to great lengths to not get into a

> non-platonic situation, yet I have a relationship.  Among other

> things, the experience is teaching me a myriad of new ways to avoid

> getting into another one in the future.  I can't quite imagine

> wanting one in general, but I'm not going to knock anyone that

> does.  :^)

--- Nanne replied:

> This is confusing to me, and , not meaning to be too nosy,

> how are you in a relationship? Or do you mean a platonic

> relationship?

Hi, Nanne:

I am 's boyfriend -- sorry if you missed that in

my " introduction " novella. *grin*

--Parrish