Re: Someone asked about the MP?

[Guest guest]

BArb'

If you go to the files section you can read about HOW BACTERIA MAKE

YOU SICK by communicating with each other. THIS IS FACT- This is also

why you can feel good and suddenly feel bad when things change. You

got to understand the actual bugs and there world and how they

function-which is something thats come to light " WAY AFTER " that

german HERX FOOL. It just turns everything on it's head, if you don;t

go with the science- instead sticking with foolish wive's tales- how

can anyone be treatred scientifically/ succesfully any other way out

of there misery.

> > > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't

have

> > the

> > > > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked

into

> > > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM

references

> > > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There

> are

> > > > many small studies online which show very similar results. As

I

> > > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get

> > > > motivated I will look them up again.

> > >

> > > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition,

so

> > > that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25

(OH)

> 2D

> > > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease

activity

> > > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been

> > proven

> > > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to

bone

> > > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has

it

> > > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with

> > increased

> > > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such

> as

> > > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater

influence

> > on

> > > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

> > >

> > > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune

> > response

> > > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

> > >

> > > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no

> > > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any

> > bacteria

> > > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to

> > occur

> > > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true

herx

> > > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not

> > everyone.

> > > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

> > >

> > > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die

off

> > of

> > > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to

> > live.

> > > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off

> > shouldn't

> > > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off,

> perhaps

> > > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should

be

> > able

> > > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should

have

> > been

> > > designed by now by the MP, to test for " real " reactions, in

order

> > to

> > > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

> > >

> > > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to

> mention

> > > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from

> > abx

> > > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die

> off

> > > of bad bacteria.

> > >

> > > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which

> are

> > > not supported by the medical literature. True science is based

on

> > > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two

new

> > > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones

in

> > > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that

> it's

> > a

> > > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Barb, well said. Yes, the herx has to gradually be reducing and it

should not be constant. It may cycle but even in cycling it should

gradually get less and less.

a

>

> Penny:

>

> Herx is a term thats just been bastardized by that group.

>

> It's ironic that I **DO** agree that some reactions by antibiotics

> which are true Herx are mis read by some docs as an adverse drug

> reaction

>

> and that being said I ALSO think that most of the repeated adverse

> reactions called Herx related by the users of some antiobiotics ARE

> actaully having adverse drug reactions !!

>

> It's a fact that:

> If a person is lessening their gram negative bacterial load with

> their antibiotic - then yes there will be die off and maybe herx..

> but the assumtion HAS to be made that as the bacterial population

is

> reduced, that herx has to be reduced with it..

>

> So I just don't get these repeated herx's every week, every month,

it

> just doesn't jive was with the accepted definition of how bacteria

> live and die, and the immune systems response to that die off.

>

> Barb

>

>

>

> > > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't

have

> > the

> > > > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked

into

> > > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM

references

> > > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There

> are

> > > > many small studies online which show very similar results. As

I

> > > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get

> > > > motivated I will look them up again.

> > >

> > > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition,

so

> > > that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25

(OH)

> 2D

> > > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease

activity

> > > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been

> > proven

> > > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to

bone

> > > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has

it

> > > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with

> > increased

> > > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such

> as

> > > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater

influence

> > on

> > > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

> > >

> > > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune

> > response

> > > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

> > >

> > > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no

> > > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any

> > bacteria

> > > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to

> > occur

> > > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true

herx

> > > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not

> > everyone.

> > > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

> > >

> > > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die

off

> > of

> > > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to

> > live.

> > > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off

> > shouldn't

> > > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off,

> perhaps

> > > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should

be

> > able

> > > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should

have

> > been

> > > designed by now by the MP, to test for " real " reactions, in

order

> > to

> > > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

> > >

> > > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to

> mention

> > > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from

> > abx

> > > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die

> off

> > > of bad bacteria.

> > >

> > > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which

> are

> > > not supported by the medical literature. True science is based

on

> > > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two

new

> > > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones

in

> > > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that

> it's

> > a

> > > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think "gradually" should be in there at all. A Herx is caused by a sudden die off of a LOT of gram negative bacteria and the release of all their toxins. Once that bacteria's dead, and the toxins cleared, the herx should dissipate quickly. A gradual herx just doesn't make sense. If it's because you're slowly killing bugs, there'd be no big die off to cause a herx reaction in the first place. This thing everybody's calling a "herx" needs a new name. And before gettting a name, it should be studied a lot to make sure it's a real phenomenon and not just some kind of side effect of treatment or exacerbation of some other unknown pathology. penny pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote: Barb, well said. Yes, the herx has to gradually be reducing and it should not be constant. It may cycle but even in cycling it should gradually get less and less. a>> Penny:> > Herx is a term thats just been bastardized by that group.> > It's ironic that I **DO** agree that some reactions by antibiotics > which are true Herx are mis read by some docs as an adverse drug > reaction > > and that being said I ALSO think that most of the repeated adverse > reactions called Herx related by the users of some antiobiotics ARE

> actaully having adverse drug reactions !!> > It's a fact that:> If a person is lessening their gram negative bacterial load with > their antibiotic - then yes there will be die off and maybe herx.. > but the assumtion HAS to be made that as the bacterial population is > reduced, that herx has to be reduced with it..> > So I just don't get these repeated herx's every week, every month, it > just doesn't jive was with the accepted definition of how bacteria > live and die, and the immune systems response to that die off.> > Barb> > > > > > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have > > the> > > > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into> > > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references> > > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There > are> > > > many small studies online which show very similar results. As I> > > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get> > > > motivated I will look them up again.> > > > > > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition, so > > > that it's impossible to make any general statement about

1,25(OH)> 2D > > > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease activity > > > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been > > proven > > > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to bone > > > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has it > > > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with > > increased > > > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such > as > > > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater influence > > on > > > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.> > > > > > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune > > response> > > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.> > >

> > > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no > > > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any > > bacteria > > > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to > > occur > > > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx > > > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not > > everyone. > > > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx. > > > > > > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die off > > of > > > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to > > live. > > > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off > > shouldn't > > > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off, > perhaps >

> > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should be > > able > > > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should have > > been > > > designed by now by the MP, to test for "real" reactions, in order > > to > > > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.> > > > > > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to > mention > > > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from > > abx > > > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die > off > > > of bad bacteria.> > > > > > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which > are > > > not supported by the medical literature. True science is based on > > > supported facts. I'm willing to

perhaps believe in one or two new > > > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones in > > > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that > it's > > a > > > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I don't understand why

unpleasant symptoms from a bacterial die-off should be an "all or

nothing" proposition. Why would it require total die off and sudden

release to produce symptoms?

Certainly individual physiologies will have a different "threshold" of

reaction, a.k.a. "tolerance" ... but it can be quite low, I'd think,

depending on many factors.

I have read (don't know how true or proven it is) that bacteria and

viruses can also bind to toxic metals and then release them upon

death. I'm sure there are many other mechanisms not yet understood or

yet to be discovered. It may well be that Herxheimer only recognized a

part of the reality of the reaction to which he lent his name.

--Bob

Penny Houle wrote:

I don't think "gradually" should be in there at all. A Herx is

caused by a sudden die off of a LOT of gram

negative bacteria and the release of all

their toxins. Once that bacteria's dead, and the toxins cleared, the

herx should dissipate quickly. A gradual herx just doesn't make sense.

If it's because you're slowly killing bugs, there'd be no big die off

to cause a herx reaction in the first place.

This thing everybody's calling a "herx" needs a new name. And

before gettting a name, it should be studied a lot to make sure it's a

real phenomenon and not just some kind of side effect of treatment or

exacerbation of some other unknown pathology.

penny

pjeanneus <pj7@...> wrote:

Barb, well said. Yes, the herx has to gradually be reducing

and it

should not be constant. It may cycle but even in cycling it should

gradually get less and less.

a

>

> Penny:

>

> Herx is a term thats just been bastardized by that group.

>

> It's ironic that I **DO** agree that some reactions by antibiotics

> which are true Herx are mis read by some docs as an adverse drug

> reaction

>

> and that being said I ALSO think that most of the repeated adverse

> reactions called Herx related by the users of some antiobiotics

ARE

> actaully having adverse drug reactions !!

>

> It's a fact that:

> If a person is lessening their gram negative bacterial load with

> their antibiotic - then yes there will be die off and maybe herx..

> but the assumtion HAS to be made that as the bacterial population

is

> reduced, that herx has to be reduced with it..

>

> So I just don't get these repeated herx's every week, every month,

it

> just doesn't jive was with the accepted definition of how bacteria

> live and die, and the immune systems response to that die off.

>

> Barb

>

>

>

> > > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that.

I don't

have

> > the

> > > > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there.

I looked

into

> > > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study

TM

references

> > > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced

elsewhere. There

> are

> > > > many small studies online which show very similar

results. As

I

> > > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of

7-10. If I get

> > > > motivated I will look them up again.

> > >

> > > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every

condition,

so

> > > that it's impossible to make any general statement about

1,25

(OH)

> 2D

> > > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease

activity

> > > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's

been

> > proven

> > > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due

to

bone

> > > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific

conditions has

it

> > > been found that increased disease activity coorelates

with

> > increased

> > > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other

factors such

> as

> > > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater

influence

> > on

> > > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

> > >

> > > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an

immune

> > response

> > > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

> > >

> > > The medical literature does not support your claim.

There is no

> > > support in the medical literature for any reaction from

any

> > bacteria

> > > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only

known to

> > occur

> > > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a

true

herx

> > > only occurs in some people with those infections, but

not

> > everyone.

> > > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

> > >

> > > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a

significant die

off

> > of

> > > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are

supposed to

> > live.

> > > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die

off

> > shouldn't

> > > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die

off,

> perhaps

> > > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test

should

be

> > able

> > > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test

should

have

> > been

> > > designed by now by the MP, to test for "real" reactions,

in

order

> > to

> > > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

> > >

> > > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not

to

> mention

> > > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad

symptoms from

> > abx

> > > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to

the die

> off

> > > of bad bacteria.

> > >

> > > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported

claims which

> are

> > > not supported by the medical literature. True science is

based

on

> > > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one

or two

new

> > > medical facts. But when someone presents me with

numerous ones

in

> > > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to

believe that

> it's

> > a

> > > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bob, the theory may have validity. But it's a theory. It's not the scientific definition of a herx. And until the theory is proven and/or distinguished from other reactions, using it as an accurate description of what's happening should be left in the realm of theory. Unfortunately, almost everybody's claiming every bad reaction is a herx, and there's just no basis for it. And the worst part of that is it's dangerous. penny Bob Grommes <bob@...> wrote: I don't understand why unpleasant symptoms from a bacterial die-off should be an "all or nothing" proposition. Why would it require total die off and sudden release to produce symptoms?Certainly individual physiologies will have a different "threshold" of reaction, a.k.a. "tolerance" ... but it can be quite low, I'd think, depending on many factors.I have read (don't know how true or proven it is) that bacteria and viruses can also bind to toxic metals and then release them upon death. I'm sure there are many other mechanisms not yet understood or yet to be discovered. It may well be that Herxheimer only recognized a part of the reality of the reaction to which he lent his name.--BobPenny Houle wrote: I don't think "gradually" should be in there at all. A Herx is caused by a sudden die off of a LOT of gram negative bacteria and the release of all their toxins. Once that bacteria's dead, and the toxins cleared, the herx should dissipate quickly. A gradual herx just doesn't make sense. If it's because you're slowly killing bugs, there'd be no big die off to cause a herx reaction in the first place. This thing everybody's calling a "herx" needs a new name. And before gettting a name, it should be studied a lot to make sure it's a real phenomenon and not just some kind of side effect of treatment or exacerbation of some other unknown pathology. penny pjeanneus <pj7@...>

wrote: Barb, well said. Yes, the herx has to gradually be reducing and it should not be constant. It may cycle but even in cycling it should gradually get less and less. a>> Penny:> > Herx is a term thats just been bastardized by that group.> > It's ironic that I **DO** agree that some reactions by antibiotics > which are true Herx are mis read by some docs as an adverse drug > reaction > > and that being said I ALSO think that most of the repeated adverse > reactions called Herx related by the users of some antiobiotics ARE > actaully having adverse drug reactions !!> > It's a fact that:> If a person is lessening their gram negative bacterial load with > their antibiotic - then yes there will be die off and

maybe herx.. > but the assumtion HAS to be made that as the bacterial population is > reduced, that herx has to be reduced with it..> > So I just don't get these repeated herx's every week, every month, it > just doesn't jive was with the accepted definition of how bacteria > live and die, and the immune systems response to that die off.> > Barb> > > > > > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't have > > the> > >

> info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked into> > > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM references> > > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere. There > are> > > > many small studies online which show very similar results. As I> > > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I get> > > > motivated I will look them up again.> > > > > > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every condition, so > > > that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25(OH)> 2D > > > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease activity > > > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been > > proven > > > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to bone

> > > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has it > > > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with > > increased > > > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors such > as > > > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater influence > > on > > > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.> > > > > > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune > > response> > > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.> > > > > > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is no > > > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any > > bacteria > > > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known to > > occur > > >

with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true herx > > > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not > > everyone. > > > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx. > > > > > > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die off > > of > > > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to > > live. > > > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off > > shouldn't > > > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off, > perhaps > > > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should be > > able > > > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should have > > been > > > designed by now by the MP, to test for "real" reactions, in order > > to

> > > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.> > > > > > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to > mention > > > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms from > > abx > > > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the die > off > > > of bad bacteria.> > > > > > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims which > are > > > not supported by the medical literature. True science is based on > > > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two new > > > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous ones in > > > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe that > it's > > a > > > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark> >

>> >>

[Guest guest]

This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know why,

perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

penny

Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be difficult

to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when there

is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others are to

benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

" I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by the

huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was either

having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended that

an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later was

true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I will!

Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are covered

in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do without

Tramadol. "

[Guest guest]

Penny,

This is a very deceptive quote taken out of context from a private

section of the MP web site. I thought you knew better than to post

something like this.

Roy

>

> This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know why,

> perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

>

> penny

>

>

> Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

> contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

difficult

> to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when

there

> is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others are

to

> benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

>

> " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by the

> huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was either

> having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended that

> an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

> was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later was

> true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

> friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I will!

>

> Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

> Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are covered

> in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do

without

> Tramadol. "

>

[Guest guest]

So what you are saying to me is

that if you discuss anything anti-**, LOL, then the thought police come after

you.? Ridiculous! It’s like shopping in a grocery store, you got to one

and don’t like the produce procedure so you mention it to all of your

friends, and then your friends recommend that you go to another grocery store.

It angers me of such obnoxiousness when there is war, poverty, strife, and

illness throughout our world. How dare they sue anyone over there thoughts or

the way they say things in America! Its

against our constitutional freedom of speech. Blessings to

all~~Beauty/PS I wrote for a “gist” description of the ** and got

nothing, anything that is kept in secret could

be put up as a “cult” unless otherwise proven different

with foregoing disclosure.

there before the grace of God go

I..........

This email is protected by the very

latest 2007 Nortons Symantec Internet Security

[Guest guest]

Are you serious? How would I know better? I don't have access to that forum. I don't know where it was posted. And even if it was a "private" forum, legally it's still considered public domain if it's posted on the internet. All I know is someone sent it to me and I forwarded it to this list. Obviously someone felt it needed to be heard, and I can see their point because this is exactly the kind of stuff that has always gone on. The good news is made public, the bad news...not so much. It's this kind of secrecy and one sided portrayal that makes so many people wary. penny royx31 <roysno@...> wrote: Penny,This is a very deceptive quote taken out of context from a private section of the MP web site. I thought you knew better than to post something like this.Roy>> This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know why, > perhaps they don't want to be "found out" by the mp people.> > penny> > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a> contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be difficult> to provide a truly

objective overview of ones own progress when there> is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others are to> benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;> > "I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by the> huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was either> having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended that> an "able bodied" person my age with no visible physical ailments> was "lazy" enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later was> true. Ironically, I was told again and again to "come fly the> friendly skies" again with United Airlines. Not sure that I will!> > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.> Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are covered> in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do without>

Tramadol.">

[Guest guest]

Hi Penny and anyone reading this topic.

This is Amy Proal. I have been alerted to the fact that somebody took two

paragraphs

from a post in my progress report in a private forum and put it on this board.

For starters,

it is NOT legal to put up information from a private forum on this board.

it scares and saddens me that someone has gone to great lengths to take my words

out of

context and put them here to cast in a negative light the very treatment that is

giving me

my health back.

That paragraph about the wheelchair. I was coming from New York with a very

heavy carry

on bag (a backpack). My gate was farthest away from the check in. I had to

walk forever

and when I got to the gate in New York my back was killing me from the heavy

load.

OHare Airport in Chicago is huge. Again the gate was very far from the baggage

claim.

My flight was already late in the evening and delayed for 2 hrs. We got in past

one in the

morning. There was a person with a wheelchair at the gate. I asked for a ride.

Why not? I

could have walked if I had to. The entire travel experience took me over six

hours. Who

wouldn't have been tired? I got home after four in the morning...which is part

of why I felt

so crappy the day after.

I have always made it clear that I suffer from bad head pain because of the

herxheimer

reaction. Whenever I fly I get a terrible pressure headache THE DAY AFTER I

fly. On top of

that I only slept 3 hours after the flight. My headache got better in a day or

two. The pain

I referred to was in my head...not my body. This is certainly not a TYPICAL

reaction for

me.

Listen, in every time I talk about the MP I make it clear that I still have pain

from the

herxheimer rxn. Do you know that before I started the MP I was unable fly at

all for two

entire years because of the effects on my head? If you were to read other parts

of my

progress report you would learn that the fact that I am able to fly in the first

place shows

great progress. These days i don't hesitate to fly...but I do get a headache.

I'ts sad indeed that I have had to defend myself on this site. I have no reason

to lie about

the way I am feeling on the MP. You cannot understand my symptoms by looking at

two

paragraphs taken completely out of context.

I want people to understand the MP. If you have a question about my

progress...ask me

directly. My e mail address is on the MP board under my profile. I PROMISE to

answer you

completely honestly about every issue and symptom. Just please don't paste my

words in

a place where I cannot defend myself if needed.

Thank you and I wish everyone the best health possible,

Amy

> >

> > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know why,

> > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> >

> > penny

> >

> >

> > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

> > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> difficult

> > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when

> there

> > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others are

> to

> > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

> >

> > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by the

> > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was either

> > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended that

> > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

> > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later was

> > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

> > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I will!

> >

> > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

> > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are covered

> > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do

> without

> > Tramadol. "

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Penny'

the part that really sucks with all this supposed suffer to get well

ideology is that everytime your getting pounded by illness- your

accumulating more and more toxins into your deep tissue. Imagine if

it takes botulism toxins 4 to 6 months to be weened out of your

system after botox injections- why would we need to distribute large

amounts of toxins by stimulating these processes?

The science fact and the actual what is truly going on is sooooooo

skewed by so many on the net IT TRULY IS DANGEROUS.

The other problem we have is with the fix the immune system

greenies.Whenever any disease occurs more often than not it's

hijacking the iummune system to create the havoc. And more often than

not it's the healthy immune system that fascilitates the disease

process further up the garden path.

Every serious viral and bacterial disease of late UTILISES THE WHITE

BLOOD CELLS. How can you offer a fix by boosting your immune system?

> > > > > As for the 1,25D levels I may take you up on that. I don't

> have

> > > the

> > > > > info right at hand, but I do know it is out there. I looked

> into

> > > > > this before starting the MP. The big Danish study TM

> references

> > > > > wasn't online, but I have seen it referenced elsewhere.

There

> > are

> > > > > many small studies online which show very similar results.

As

> I

> > > > > recall the Mean ranged from 27-30 with a SD of 7-10. If I

get

> > > > > motivated I will look them up again.

> > > >

> > > > 1,25(OH)2D levels are affected differently in every

condition,

> so

> > > > that it's impossible to make any general statement about 1,25

> (OH)

> > 2D

> > > > and inflammation. For example, in RA, increased disease

> activity

> > > > results in decreased 1,25(OH)2D levels, even though it's been

> > > proven

> > > > that TH1 1,25(OH)2D production occurs in RA. This is due to

> bone

> > > > loss that occurs in RA. Only in a few specific conditions has

> it

> > > > been found that increased disease activity coorelates with

> > > increased

> > > > 1,25(OH)2D levels. In most other conditions, other factors

such

> > as

> > > > calcium metabolism and hormones will be of much greater

> influence

> > > on

> > > > 1,25(OH)2D serum levels than TH1 generated 1,25(OH)2D.

> > > >

> > > > > Mark – I think there are valid reasons to expect an immune

> > > response

> > > > > to the death of cwd bacteria and their host cells.

> > > >

> > > > The medical literature does not support your claim. There is

no

> > > > support in the medical literature for any reaction from any

> > > bacteria

> > > > die off, except in a true herx response, which is only known

to

> > > occur

> > > > with a few specific complex bacteria. And even then, a true

> herx

> > > > only occurs in some people with those infections, but not

> > > everyone.

> > > > And even then it only occurs on the first dose of abx.

> > > >

> > > > Also, I've seen no proof that the MP causes a significant die

> off

> > > of

> > > > host cells, i.e. white cells in which the CWD are supposed to

> > > live.

> > > > White cells die off all the time, so an increase in die off

> > > shouldn't

> > > > cause any herx type reaction. If there was a huge die off,

> > perhaps

> > > > one would get a reaction, but in that case, a lab test should

> be

> > > able

> > > > to prove that is happening, in which case a lab test should

> have

> > > been

> > > > designed by now by the MP, to test for " real " reactions, in

> order

> > > to

> > > > distiguish them for side effects, or something else.

> > > >

> > > > All abx drugs have numerous different side effects, not to

> > mention

> > > > that some can kill off good bacteria. Feeling bad symptoms

from

> > > abx

> > > > doesn't necessarily prove that such symptoms are due to the

die

> > off

> > > > of bad bacteria.

> > > >

> > > > The MP states not just a few, but many unsupported claims

which

> > are

> > > > not supported by the medical literature. True science is

based

> on

> > > > supported facts. I'm willing to perhaps believe in one or two

> new

> > > > medical facts. But when someone presents me with numerous

ones

> in

> > > > order to support their theory, I'm more likely to believe

that

> > it's

> > > a

> > > > case of cognitive dissonance. - Mark

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Amy,

Welcome to an honest email list. I hope you will continue to post

your progress here. What you don't realize is that several of us have

been banned from the MP message board. If you look for my real name,

a Carnes, on the MP message board you will find the word " banned "

under my name. If you search the internet for my name you will find

that I wrote a summary of the MP for the Wisconsin CFIDS Assoc. much

like what you wrote for ImmuneSupport. I was banned because about

that same time I expressed concern for a teenager who was having

severe kidney problems with vomiting for 3 days and severe

dehydration. I had the nerve to suggest he follow the doctor's orders

and get to the emergency room. This undermined the MP story.

So, yes, I would love to hear about your progress. I need to hear

something uplifting. BTW I have had cfs since 1995 and since 1997 I

have flown all over the US and even to Hawaii. I am doing great and

got that way on high dose Zithromax. The MP for 18 months did nothing

for me. But I wouldn't discourage those like yourself that it may be

helping. I just want good scientific studies validating what you

claim. I have lived my life holding onto doubt until proven

otherwise. It seems the intelligent thing to do or else you may be

investing in the Nigerian internet scam or worse.

Sincerely,

a M. Carnes

>

> Hi Penny and anyone reading this topic.

>

> This is Amy Proal. I have been alerted to the fact that somebody

took two paragraphs

> from a post in my progress report in a private forum and put it on

this board. For starters,

> it is NOT legal to put up information from a private forum on this

board.

>

> it scares and saddens me that someone has gone to great lengths to

take my words out of

> context and put them here to cast in a negative light the very

treatment that is giving me

> my health back.

>

> That paragraph about the wheelchair. I was coming from New York

with a very heavy carry

> on bag (a backpack). My gate was farthest away from the check in.

I had to walk forever

> and when I got to the gate in New York my back was killing me from

the heavy load.

> OHare Airport in Chicago is huge. Again the gate was very far from

the baggage claim.

> My flight was already late in the evening and delayed for 2 hrs.

We got in past one in the

> morning. There was a person with a wheelchair at the gate. I

asked for a ride. Why not? I

> could have walked if I had to. The entire travel experience took

me over six hours. Who

> wouldn't have been tired? I got home after four in the

morning...which is part of why I felt

> so crappy the day after.

>

> I have always made it clear that I suffer from bad head pain

because of the herxheimer

> reaction. Whenever I fly I get a terrible pressure headache THE

DAY AFTER I fly. On top of

> that I only slept 3 hours after the flight. My headache got better

in a day or two. The pain

> I referred to was in my head...not my body. This is certainly not

a TYPICAL reaction for

> me.

>

> Listen, in every time I talk about the MP I make it clear that I

still have pain from the

> herxheimer rxn. Do you know that before I started the MP I was

unable fly at all for two

> entire years because of the effects on my head? If you were to

read other parts of my

> progress report you would learn that the fact that I am able to fly

in the first place shows

> great progress. These days i don't hesitate to fly...but I do get

a headache.

>

> I'ts sad indeed that I have had to defend myself on this site. I

have no reason to lie about

> the way I am feeling on the MP. You cannot understand my symptoms

by looking at two

> paragraphs taken completely out of context.

>

> I want people to understand the MP. If you have a question about

my progress...ask me

> directly. My e mail address is on the MP board under my profile.

I PROMISE to answer you

> completely honestly about every issue and symptom. Just please

don't paste my words in

> a place where I cannot defend myself if needed.

>

> Thank you and I wish everyone the best health possible,

>

> Amy

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know

why,

> > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > >

> > > penny

> > >

> > >

> > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

> > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > difficult

> > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when

> > there

> > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others

are

> > to

> > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

> > >

> > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by

the

> > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

either

> > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended

that

> > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

> > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later

was

> > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

> > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

will!

> > >

> > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

> > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are

covered

> > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do

> > without

> > > Tramadol. "

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have a question about MP--people being banned or sued--or having

adverse reactions interpreted as herxheimers (Penny's pseudotumor

cerebri etc)...and similarly, with the salt/c protocol, where some

folks are clearly intolerant/genetically sensitive to high salt and

have had adverse reactions (cardiac and kidney issues, edema, etc)...

Where is the legal/medical responsibility here? It's one thing to say,

" Hey, I did this, it was unorthodox, it helped me, maybe you will want

to do it under a doctor's care " and diagnosing over the internet,

saying stuff is a herxheimer etc, which means practicing medicine

without a license.

Does anybody have any sense of why/how it is allowed to go that far--?

As I said, I have no problem with someone saying, " I did this, and it

helped me " but I have a problem with people diagnosing over the

internet and encouraging people to stay the course when they have very

adverse symptoms. Only a practicing licensed doctor should be saying

things like that.

Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know

> why,

> > > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > > >

> > > > penny

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

> > > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > > difficult

> > > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when

> > > there

> > > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others

> are

> > > to

> > > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

> > > >

> > > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by

> the

> > > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

> either

> > > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended

> that

> > > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

> > > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later

> was

> > > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

> > > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

> will!

> > > >

> > > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

> > > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are

> covered

> > > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do

> > > without

> > > > Tramadol. "

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi a,

I will make it easy for you and others who may be interested to follow

my progress to do so. On the MP website there is a forum called the

" Phase 1 Alumni Forum. " I have a thread there called " Ames Progress:

updates from Phase III. " At the moment, I only put my long posts in

that thread; posts which sum up my progress over a certain period of

time. However I will now put all (most) of the posts that I write in

my " private " Phase 2/3 progress report into that thread as well.

The reason I say I will put " most' posts in the report rather than all

my posts is that there may be a few times when I discuss situations

that I don't want everyone on the worldwide web to be able to read

about (and i think this goes for every member on the MP). For

example, I am planning to write a post about how my sex life with my

boyfriend affects my body pain. I'd like to keep that private.

Sometimes I discuss my family's financial situation..again I'd like

that to be private.

It's important to understand that many people wouldn't post honestly

about their symptoms if they knew that their words could be taken and

put up anywhere on the web. I have a friend with terrible

gastrointestinal herx. Do you think he wants every person in the

world to read about his rectal bleeding and diarrhea? Some people

have mental herx reactions that they will only discuss openly in a

very " secure " environment.

Another reason I am careful to post only in a " protected " forum is

that I plan to re-enter the workforce or go to grad school in the next

year or so. If you take my private reflections on my symptoms and

post them all over the internet, any time anybody puts my name into

google.com they will have full access to symptoms of my illness that I

want to keep private.

Once again, if anyone has any specific questions about the MP or my

progress please just write me at amy.proal@....

I also should tell you that I'm not planning to post very much in the

coming month or so. My twin sister is flying in today to stay with me

and we are focusing on having fun. Then I'm moving to NYC to live

with my boyfriend and things are going to be hectic. I'm still making

very good progress on the MP and have no serious concerns at the

moment to write about.

Thanks,

Amy

> > > >

> > > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know

> why,

> > > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > > >

> > > > penny

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

> > > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > > difficult

> > > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when

> > > there

> > > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others

> are

> > > to

> > > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

> > > >

> > > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by

> the

> > > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

> either

> > > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended

> that

> > > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

> > > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later

> was

> > > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

> > > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

> will!

> > > >

> > > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

> > > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are

> covered

> > > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do

> > > without

> > > > Tramadol. "

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Doe,

You have three responses to your

post on the MP site, the first

26 minutes after you posted.

Roy

>

> So what you are saying to me is that if you discuss anything anti-

**, LOL,

> then the thought police come after you.? Ridiculous! It's like

shopping in

> a grocery store, you got to one and don't like the produce

procedure so you

> mention it to all of your friends, and then your friends recommend

that you

> go to another grocery store. It angers me of such obnoxiousness

when there

> is war, poverty, strife, and illness throughout our world. How

dare they

> sue anyone over there thoughts or the way they say things in

America! Its

> against our constitutional freedom of speech. Blessings to

all~~Beauty/PS I

> wrote for a " gist " description of the ** and got nothing, anything

that is

> kept in secret could be put up as a " cult " unless otherwise proven

different

> with foregoing disclosure.

>

>

>

> there before the grace of God go I..........

>

>

>

>

>

> This email is protected by the very latest 2007 Nortons Symantec

Internet

> Security

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Amy, and I wish you the BEST! I do understand about posting

personal things on the internet. My experience is that I try to be as

transparent as possible using my real name at all times. Then if I

don't want something known publicly I don't post it anywere, even

when I think it is a private sight. I have learned this the hard way.

a Carnes

>

> Hi a,

>

> I will make it easy for you and others who may be interested to

follow

> my progress to do so. On the MP website there is a forum called the

> " Phase 1 Alumni Forum. " I have a thread there called " Ames

Progress:

> updates from Phase III. " At the moment, I only put my long posts in

> that thread; posts which sum up my progress over a certain period of

> time. However I will now put all (most) of the posts that I write

in

> my " private " Phase 2/3 progress report into that thread as well.

>

> The reason I say I will put " most' posts in the report rather than

all

> my posts is that there may be a few times when I discuss situations

> that I don't want everyone on the worldwide web to be able to read

> about (and i think this goes for every member on the MP). For

> example, I am planning to write a post about how my sex life with my

> boyfriend affects my body pain. I'd like to keep that private.

> Sometimes I discuss my family's financial situation..again I'd like

> that to be private.

>

> It's important to understand that many people wouldn't post honestly

> about their symptoms if they knew that their words could be taken

and

> put up anywhere on the web. I have a friend with terrible

> gastrointestinal herx. Do you think he wants every person in the

> world to read about his rectal bleeding and diarrhea? Some people

> have mental herx reactions that they will only discuss openly in a

> very " secure " environment.

>

> Another reason I am careful to post only in a " protected " forum is

> that I plan to re-enter the workforce or go to grad school in the

next

> year or so. If you take my private reflections on my symptoms and

> post them all over the internet, any time anybody puts my name into

> google.com they will have full access to symptoms of my illness

that I

> want to keep private.

>

> Once again, if anyone has any specific questions about the MP or my

> progress please just write me at amy.proal@...

>

> I also should tell you that I'm not planning to post very much in

the

> coming month or so. My twin sister is flying in today to stay with

me

> and we are focusing on having fun. Then I'm moving to NYC to live

> with my boyfriend and things are going to be hectic. I'm still

making

> very good progress on the MP and have no serious concerns at the

> moment to write about.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Amy

>

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't

know

> > why,

> > > > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > > > >

> > > > > penny

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later,

quite a

> > > > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > > > difficult

> > > > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress

when

> > > > there

> > > > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if

others

> > are

> > > > to

> > > > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is

necessary;

> > > > >

> > > > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging

by

> > the

> > > > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

> > either

> > > > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply

offended

> > that

> > > > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical

ailments

> > > > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the

later

> > was

> > > > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly

the

> > > > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

> > will!

> > > > >

> > > > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible

pain.

> > > > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears

are

> > covered

> > > > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd

do

> > > > without

> > > > > Tramadol. "

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

AHEM.. Roy X.:

Deceptive quote from a very private section of the that web site?

Oh come on.. nothing is private to a select few on that list. They

can monitor even PM messages - becase he created his own

site/software. NOTHING is private.

And as we know (from the almightly himself) anything out on the web

is fair game to be twisted into anything on that sit wants it to be.

If the person who emailed penny wanted it private, they would have

mentioned that.

Soooo.. don't go chastising Penny - especially if you condone the " so

called " privacy on that site.

Barb

Since there are a select few that can read EVERYTHING on that site-

even things other people think are private between them.. and private

emails through can

> >

> > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know why,

> > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> >

> > penny

> >

> >

> > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

> > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> difficult

> > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when

> there

> > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others

are

> to

> > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

> >

> > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by the

> > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was either

> > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended that

> > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

> > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later was

> > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

> > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I will!

> >

> > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

> > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are

covered

> > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do

> without

> > Tramadol. "

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yah- well try it..

You'll see how someone from internet land can reach out and touch you

in real life.

If you live in NY and a law suit is brought against you in Ca.. it

will spin your life up quite nicely.

It's a PERFECT form of control.

Barb

>

> So what you are saying to me is that if you discuss anything anti-

**, LOL,

> then the thought police come after you.? Ridiculous! It's like

shopping in

> a grocery store, you got to one and don't like the produce

procedure so you

> mention it to all of your friends, and then your friends recommend

that you

> go to another grocery store. It angers me of such obnoxiousness

when there

> is war, poverty, strife, and illness throughout our world. How

dare they

> sue anyone over there thoughts or the way they say things in

America! Its

> against our constitutional freedom of speech. Blessings to

all~~Beauty/PS I

> wrote for a " gist " description of the ** and got nothing, anything

that is

> kept in secret could be put up as a " cult " unless otherwise proven

different

> with foregoing disclosure.

>

>

>

> there before the grace of God go I..........

>

>

>

>

>

> This email is protected by the very latest 2007 Nortons Symantec

Internet

> Security

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Amy:

Since you are now on this board.. maybe you can clear up what started

this thread..

Did you write the article signed by you reviewing your protocol all

in your own hand?

Or was it edited by some of the people in that group.?

Barb

> > >

> > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't know

why,

> > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > >

> > > penny

> > >

> > >

> > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later, quite a

> > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > difficult

> > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress when

> > there

> > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if others

are

> > to

> > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is necessary;

> > >

> > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging by

the

> > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

either

> > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply offended

that

> > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical ailments

> > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the later

was

> > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly the

> > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

will!

> > >

> > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible pain.

> > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears are

covered

> > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd do

> > without

> > > Tramadol. "

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well- you tell me how a PHD in a non medical field (who's minions

come down on you if you don't call him DR.) can charm " a large

cohort " into doing some of the things they do.. then they'll defend

and protecting him.?

Look up the 9 criteria of a cult. It fits the bill.

Barb

P>S> I'm interested in knowing if the people now doing that protocol

sign a disclaimer- or a confidentially agreement - or some other kind

of agreement not to divulge certain things..

> > > > >

> > > > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't

know

> > why,

> > > > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > > > >

> > > > > penny

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later,

quite a

> > > > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > > > difficult

> > > > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress

when

> > > > there

> > > > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if

others

> > are

> > > > to

> > > > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is

necessary;

> > > > >

> > > > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging

by

> > the

> > > > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

> > either

> > > > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply

offended

> > that

> > > > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical

ailments

> > > > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the

later

> > was

> > > > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly

the

> > > > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

> > will!

> > > > >

> > > > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible

pain.

> > > > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears

are

> > covered

> > > > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd

do

> > > > without

> > > > > Tramadol. "

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Amy-

I mean this with the utmost respect to you -

If you want to keep these things private, then you should not be

posting them on any web site and /or with your real name.

Nothing on the Web can be guaranteed to be private.

I originally became ill when I was 28 years old (and I'm 58 now) and

I fully understand a young persons desire to keep Medical

records/discussions private.. I didn't talk about my (medical)self

publically untill recently (about 5-7 years ago) writing about them

on the Web is not the way to keep things private.

AND additionally- you're taking part a controversial and Public

(started on the Net) protocol.. one with alot of opponents - and

alot of discussion.. so you should know that you (and others) are

really in the thick of it.. not oustide.

Barb

> > > > >

> > > > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't

know

> > why,

> > > > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > > > >

> > > > > penny

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later,

quite a

> > > > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > > > difficult

> > > > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress

when

> > > > there

> > > > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if

others

> > are

> > > > to

> > > > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is

necessary;

> > > > >

> > > > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging

by

> > the

> > > > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

> > either

> > > > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply

offended

> > that

> > > > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical

ailments

> > > > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the

later

> > was

> > > > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly

the

> > > > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

> > will!

> > > > >

> > > > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible

pain.

> > > > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears

are

> > covered

> > > > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd

do

> > > > without

> > > > > Tramadol. "

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That's what I'm asking--isn't this practicing medicine without a

license? Isn't it illegal? How can he sue Penny but nobody sues him

for practicing medicine without a license--ie if people are

interpreting as herx things like psuedotumor cerebri, or rises in

bun/creatinine etc?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This was sent to my personal mail, anonymously. I don't

> know

> > > why,

> > > > > > perhaps they don't want to be " found out " by the mp people.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > penny

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here is a short description by Amy Proal, 3 weeks later,

> quite a

> > > > > > contrast from her previous glowing update. I know it can be

> > > > > difficult

> > > > > > to provide a truly objective overview of ones own progress

> when

> > > > > there

> > > > > > is so much time, effort, and resources invested, but if

> others

> > > are

> > > > > to

> > > > > > benefit from the updates, than clear objectivity is

> necessary;

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " I got a wheelchair from my gate to the claim area. Judging

> by

> > > the

> > > > > > huge scowl on face of the lady who pushed my chair, she was

> > > either

> > > > > > having the worst day of her life, or she was deeply

> offended

> > > that

> > > > > > an " able bodied " person my age with no visible physical

> ailments

> > > > > > was " lazy " enough to ask for a ride. I'm pretty sure the

> later

> > > was

> > > > > > true. Ironically, I was told again and again to " come fly

> the

> > > > > > friendly skies " again with United Airlines. Not sure that I

> > > will!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yesterday I was a zombie who roamed the house in terrible

> pain.

> > > > > > Today, I'm still pretty wiped out but improving. My ears

> are

> > > covered

> > > > > > in scabs, my head pain is miserable. I don't know what I'd

> do

> > > > > without

> > > > > > Tramadol. "

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

<jenbooks13@...> wrote:

>

> That's what I'm asking--isn't this practicing medicine without a

> license? Isn't it illegal? How can he sue Penny but nobody sues him

> for practicing medicine without a license--ie if people are

> interpreting as herx things like psuedotumor cerebri, or rises in

> bun/creatinine etc?

IMO, the same hand that would restrain a person like ____ would also

love to restrain ILADS and other people we like a lot. How about

restrictive laws on herbs and supplements like they have in some

nations of Europe? To my mind it's better to err on the side of

freedom.

Freedom can certainly be harmful! But... though I take a dim view of

all the anti-vaccine activism... it would take one hell of a

compelling public interest to convince me to favor forcing a few

holdouts to get something injected into their kids.

You just can't save people from their own decisions. The ____

protocol is a drop in the bucket IMO when you look at all the

unfounded and underfounded non-orthodox health practices out there.

Then there are the world's 68 zillion alcoholics... those who choose

(at least in part) to be smokers... or to tell their little kids they

will burn in eternal hell for masturbating. It goes on... but where

exactly do you draw the line, anyway?

IMO all the litigation in this country is a big problem. And I think

if you make government too much of a replacement or backstop for

virtue and honesty, virtue and honesty themselves may well atrophy in

response... while at the same time there's no question freedom will

be diminished.

I can see it both ways, but I guess that's how I come down. I'm sure

glad to be in a situation where I can decide for myself what medical

treatment to take, because Paxil was PROBABLY not going to cut it for

me!

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb,

Thank you for your concern. I write my posts on the MP website under

a screename with no connection to my real name. I know I am putting

myself at some risk my writing on immunesupport.com etc, but I feel

that I cannot sit silently with so many reflections on my treatment

when there are so many people ill with CFS who deperately need

feedback from an honest person actually doing the MP. I am putting

myself out there for the CFS community - because I don't think people

who are developing CFS or are sick at the moment should suffer the way

I did before I found the MP. People on this board keep talking about

how the MP board is so " secretive " . Well that's because just as you

say, people don't want their medical details all over the web! I'm

willing to put out some of mine for better or for worse because I

think people need to hear about how the MP has changed my health for

the better.

In case you need to me say it, yes, I wrote every single sentence of

both the pieces I wrote on Immunsupport.com on my own. Neither Dr.

Marshall nor the moderators had any say whatsoever in what I wrote in

the pieces. They have never once even suggested that I write the

work, that they edit it, or that they look at it before publication.

I take credit for every word in each piece.

It's also really important to understand that the progress reports

from people in the Phase 2/3 forum are the basis of a Phase II study

trial with the FDA. You guys seem to really want to hear studies

about the MP...well these reports ARE a study in themselves. The FDA

definitely needs to hear my feedback (as well as the feedback of

everyone else on the treatment) That is also why I post my progress

on the site.

The claims made here are a bit ridiculous. The MP isn't a cult, and

nobody has to sign disclaimers about anything in order to be on the

MP.

This will be my last post on this site. Please send any questions

related to the treatment (as opposed to the politics of it) to my

personal e mail. Those I will be happy to answer... in due time, that

is. I am still recovering and my sister's in town.

Amy

[Guest guest]

Um, can someone bring me up to speed? What is this about a phase 2

study with the FDA based on people's reports posted on an internet

website? The FDA actually approved such as study with no MD

oversight? I find that bizarre to say the least.

I also find it bizarre that Amy thinks we need to ask her about this

treatment.

It seems to me that I wrote the book on it and signed my name too.

But y'all don't want to ask me questions about it since I jumped

ship. Only those totally committed have the right to tell folks about

the treatment, right? Of course, right.

a Carnes

>

> Hi Barb,

>

> Thank you for your concern. I write my posts on the MP website

under

> a screename with no connection to my real name. I know I am putting

> myself at some risk my writing on immunesupport.com etc, but I feel

> that I cannot sit silently with so many reflections on my treatment

> when there are so many people ill with CFS who deperately need

> feedback from an honest person actually doing the MP. I am putting

> myself out there for the CFS community - because I don't think

people

> who are developing CFS or are sick at the moment should suffer the

way

> I did before I found the MP. People on this board keep talking

about

> how the MP board is so " secretive " . Well that's because just as you

> say, people don't want their medical details all over the web! I'm

> willing to put out some of mine for better or for worse because I

> think people need to hear about how the MP has changed my health for

> the better.

>

> In case you need to me say it, yes, I wrote every single sentence of

> both the pieces I wrote on Immunsupport.com on my own. Neither Dr.

> Marshall nor the moderators had any say whatsoever in what I wrote

in

> the pieces. They have never once even suggested that I write the

> work, that they edit it, or that they look at it before

publication.

> I take credit for every word in each piece.

>

> It's also really important to understand that the progress reports

> from people in the Phase 2/3 forum are the basis of a Phase II study

> trial with the FDA. You guys seem to really want to hear studies

> about the MP...well these reports ARE a study in themselves. The

FDA

> definitely needs to hear my feedback (as well as the feedback of

> everyone else on the treatment) That is also why I post my progress

> on the site.

>

> The claims made here are a bit ridiculous. The MP isn't a cult, and

> nobody has to sign disclaimers about anything in order to be on the

> MP.

>

> This will be my last post on this site. Please send any questions

> related to the treatment (as opposed to the politics of it) to my

> personal e mail. Those I will be happy to answer... in due time,

that

> is. I am still recovering and my sister's in town.

>

> Amy

>