RE: Giardia or ?

[Guest guest]

If it weren’t running the entire family

circuit, my first hunch would be Gall bladder especially in light of no fever.

Ova Parasites?

From: infections [mailto:infections ] On Behalf Of phagelod

Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006

6:54 PM

infections

Subject:

[infections] Giardia or ?

Can this be something other than Giardia?:

My wife:

Intestinal upset

Mild/intermittent diarrhea

Fecal color changing from green to yellow to brown and back

again

Major belching and indigestion esp. after eating a meal, and

especially a meal high in fat or sugar

Waited about 10 days to see if her immune system would

resolve the problem; it didn't; lost 11 pounds; went to doctor.

Fecal test results not in yet, but WBCs are elevated

Little if no fever

My cat

Shortly after my wife's onset, my cat now burps and farts

Me

Now I have it.

So this is highly contagious, and not strictly a human pathogen.

Can this be anything other than Giardia?

My wife's doc prescribed her 1,500 mg flagyl/day plus 400 mg

moxifloxacin/day for seven days. He doesn't seem to rule out C.

diff, but the belching and bile stuff seems to me incompatible

with that. The flagyl would work against C. diff anyway, but why

would he prescribe a fluoroquinolone? The flagyl dose is

double the US

regimen for giardia. After only one day her

peripheral nerves were " buzzing " . I've discussed with how a

FQ/nitroimidazole combo might be highly effective against

persistent bacteria, but I was afraid that this combo would be

especially prone to inducing peripheral neuropathy, and after

only one day on this combo she's got some. She halved the

dose (commensurate with US guidelines for giardia) and

dropped the moxi. The buzzing went away. I don't want to

antagonize her relatively helpful doctor, but I don't see the point

of moxi, and frying her neurons with high-dose flagyl plus moxi is

a concern.

Giardia is often " asymptomatic " and deliberately left untreated.

What's up with that? Do people get rid of it on their own after a

few months. Is waiting this out a sane option? I found a post on

the Web by a person who thinks her relapsing giardiasis gave

her chronic fatigue and such.

Several months ago, I developed serum sickness on a combo of

Tini, mino and Azith. I haven't yet had the skin test to find out

what I reacted to. I'd like to know if this might be something

other than giardia so I can think about deploying something

other than Flagyl (related to Tini). Otherwise I may do a scratch

test myself rather than waiting for a referral. There's some

evidence that Albenza works against giardia. I have some on

hand. Albenza plus Flagyl is reported to be a highly effective

combo, but multiple Filipino migrant workers in Taiwan

developed fatal s- syndrome on a similar combo

(Mebendazole instead of Albendazole, but the two are very

similar; the migrant workers take antiparasitics prophylactically

just prior to biannual mandatory tests that could get them kicked

out of Taiwan for a positive; so it may be that this reaction

occurred several times out of thousands of doses; the authors

didn't give an estimate of incidence; they just advised against the

combo). I would try the less effective, but highly safe Albenza but

if it doesn't work, how long would I have to wait before deploying

the more effective Flagyl without the enhanced risk of

s-?

I have a 5-day commitment I can't get out of and I don't know if I'll

have internet access during that time. I may not respond during

that time. But I'd really like ideas about what, other than giardia,

could fit this profile.

thanks,

Matt

[Guest guest]

I can't help you there, at least nothing comes to mind other than giardia (or c. diffil.) but I just wanted to comment that I find it very interesting how many pwc I know also have had giardia. Wonder if it's just a coincidence? Or perhaps it's that widespread in general? Or it's somehow related to our illness? pennyphagelod <mpalmer@...> wrote: Can this be something other than Giardia?:My wife:Intestinal upsetMild/intermittent diarrheaFecal color changing from green to yellow to

brown and back againMajor belching and indigestion esp. after eating a meal, and especially a meal high in fat or sugarWaited about 10 days to see if her immune system would resolve the problem; it didn't; lost 11 pounds; went to doctor.Fecal test results not in yet, but WBCs are elevatedLittle if no feverMy catShortly after my wife's onset, my cat now burps and fartsMeNow I have it.So this is highly contagious, and not strictly a human pathogen.Can this be anything other than Giardia?My wife's doc prescribed her 1,500 mg flagyl/day plus 400 mg moxifloxacin/day for seven days. He doesn't seem to rule out C. diff, but the belching and bile stuff seems to me incompatible with that. The flagyl would work against C. diff anyway, but why would he prescribe a fluoroquinolone? The flagyl dose is double the US regimen for giardia. After only one day her peripheral nerves

were "buzzing". I've discussed with how a FQ/nitroimidazole combo might be highly effective against persistent bacteria, but I was afraid that this combo would be especially prone to inducing peripheral neuropathy, and after only one day on this combo she's got some. She halved the dose (commensurate with US guidelines for giardia) and dropped the moxi. The buzzing went away. I don't want to antagonize her relatively helpful doctor, but I don't see the point of moxi, and frying her neurons with high-dose flagyl plus moxi is a concern.Giardia is often "asymptomatic" and deliberately left untreated. What's up with that? Do people get rid of it on their own after a few months. Is waiting this out a sane option? I found a post on the Web by a person who thinks her relapsing giardiasis gave her chronic fatigue and such.Several months ago, I developed serum sickness on a combo of Tini, mino and Azith. I

haven't yet had the skin test to find out what I reacted to. I'd like to know if this might be something other than giardia so I can think about deploying something other than Flagyl (related to Tini). Otherwise I may do a scratch test myself rather than waiting for a referral. There's some evidence that Albenza works against giardia. I have some on hand. Albenza plus Flagyl is reported to be a highly effective combo, but multiple Filipino migrant workers in Taiwan developed fatal s- syndrome on a similar combo (Mebendazole instead of Albendazole, but the two are very similar; the migrant workers take antiparasitics prophylactically just prior to biannual mandatory tests that could get them kicked out of Taiwan for a positive; so it may be that this reaction occurred several times out of thousands of doses; the authors didn't give an estimate of incidence; they just advised against the combo). I would

try the less effective, but highly safe Albenza but if it doesn't work, how long would I have to wait before deploying the more effective Flagyl without the enhanced risk of s-?I have a 5-day commitment I can't get out of and I don't know if I'll have internet access during that time. I may not respond during that time. But I'd really like ideas about what, other than giardia, could fit this profile.thanks,Matt

[Guest guest]

Hey Matt:

WHat's your water supply- and have you had it tested?

I've known several people with Giardia. All of them got intestinal

cramping right after eating, and lost weight because they were on the

half an hr after eating.

I have not known anyone who had Giardia and was asymptomatic -but

I have read it can be mis dx'd as inflammatory bowel syndrome.

Have you all (wife, cat and you) submitted fecal specimens?

I guess I'd wait for that, as I have heard of several outbreaks of

some intestinal thing- fever, cramps, malaise - some sever enough to

look like food poisoning- and it's highly contagious - so I think

there's acouple of bad bugs going around right now. It might be viral-

as it seems to have a 2 week incubation period, then run a 15 day

course.

Hang in there.

Barb

>

> Can this be something other than Giardia?:

>

> My wife:

> Intestinal upset

> Mild/intermittent diarrhea

> Fecal color changing from green to yellow to brown and back

> again

> Major belching and indigestion esp. after eating a meal,

and

> especially a meal high in fat or sugar

> Waited about 10 days to see if her immune system would

> resolve the problem; it didn't; lost 11 pounds; went to

doctor.

> Fecal test results not in yet, but WBCs are elevated

> Little if no fever

>

>

> My cat

> Shortly after my wife's onset, my cat now burps and farts

>

> Me

> Now I have it.

>

> So this is highly contagious, and not strictly a human pathogen.

>

> Can this be anything other than Giardia?

>

> My wife's doc prescribed her 1,500 mg flagyl/day plus 400 mg

> moxifloxacin/day for seven days. He doesn't seem to rule out C.

> diff, but the belching and bile stuff seems to me incompatible

> with that. The flagyl would work against C. diff anyway, but why

> would he prescribe a fluoroquinolone? The flagyl dose is

> double the US regimen for giardia. After only one day her

> peripheral nerves were " buzzing " . I've discussed with how a

> FQ/nitroimidazole combo might be highly effective against

> persistent bacteria, but I was afraid that this combo would be

> especially prone to inducing peripheral neuropathy, and after

> only one day on this combo she's got some. She halved the

> dose (commensurate with US guidelines for giardia) and

> dropped the moxi. The buzzing went away. I don't want to

> antagonize her relatively helpful doctor, but I don't see the point

> of moxi, and frying her neurons with high-dose flagyl plus moxi is

> a concern.

>

> Giardia is often " asymptomatic " and deliberately left untreated.

> What's up with that? Do people get rid of it on their own after a

> few months. Is waiting this out a sane option? I found a post on

> the Web by a person who thinks her relapsing giardiasis gave

> her chronic fatigue and such.

>

> Several months ago, I developed serum sickness on a combo of

> Tini, mino and Azith. I haven't yet had the skin test to find out

> what I reacted to. I'd like to know if this might be something

> other than giardia so I can think about deploying something

> other than Flagyl (related to Tini). Otherwise I may do a scratch

> test myself rather than waiting for a referral. There's some

> evidence that Albenza works against giardia. I have some on

> hand. Albenza plus Flagyl is reported to be a highly effective

> combo, but multiple Filipino migrant workers in Taiwan

> developed fatal s- syndrome on a similar combo

> (Mebendazole instead of Albendazole, but the two are very

> similar; the migrant workers take antiparasitics prophylactically

> just prior to biannual mandatory tests that could get them kicked

> out of Taiwan for a positive; so it may be that this reaction

> occurred several times out of thousands of doses; the authors

> didn't give an estimate of incidence; they just advised against the

> combo). I would try the less effective, but highly safe Albenza

but

> if it doesn't work, how long would I have to wait before deploying

> the more effective Flagyl without the enhanced risk of

> s-?

>

> I have a 5-day commitment I can't get out of and I don't know if

I'll

> have internet access during that time. I may not respond during

> that time. But I'd really like ideas about what, other than

giardia,

> could fit this profile.

>

> thanks,

> Matt

>

[Guest guest]

Penny

That could be a critical clue for me. I can't remember if my " IBS "

started before my fatigue but it definitely wasn't the other way

around. My illness began in earnest when I was about 13 or 14. I

had moved to a rural house with water supplied by a cistern. I

think this was just water taken from irrigation ditches/ponds with a

little chlorine thrown in. The water flowed above ground through

ranching and farming country--collecting crap along the way, I

suspect. But maybe the water was taken from a better source. I

don't know. I just remember thinking at the time that it was

disgusting. Rumor is that chlorine doesn't work so well against

Giardia.

So many diseases seem to be screened by insensitive tests. The ova

& parasites test is supposed to be done in series on 3 to 6 samples

before ruling out infestation. But the docs my wife and I have seen

think once is plenty. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if a

subgroup of PWCs (with IBS) have undiagnosed giardia.

The first-line therapy for giardia is flagyl. I had a severe

reaction to one of three abx I was taking several months ago (tini,

mino and azith). I scratched solutions of these abx into my skin

yesterday, but that didn't work and what literature I can uncover

indicates that skin tests only work for the B-lactams. I guess

reactions to the other abx may be directed against metabolites. The

doc I went to a couple of days ago said the only way to know what

I'm allergic to is to take them.

I think this new development may be entamoeba, possibly now a co-

infection with long-standing giardia. If I were to take the risk of

using flagyl (similar to tini) and I was allergic to it then I would

need, presumably, prednisone (as I did the first time). But I think

I read that prednisone can get you killed if you have invasive

amoeba.

I cannot overstate how much I regret not having deployed the three

antibiotics with about a month delay between each. By jumping in

with all three nearly simultaneously I now have no way of knowing

what I reacted to, and apparently no way of finding out except by

testing them orally.

There are other options for giardia and entamoeba, but they're not

the preferred drugs.

Matt

>

> I can't help you there, at least nothing comes to mind other than

giardia (or c. diffil.) but I just wanted to comment that I find it

very interesting how many pwc I know also have had giardia. Wonder

if it's just a coincidence? Or perhaps it's that widespread in

general? Or it's somehow related to our illness?

>

> penny

>