Re: Norman - lipids in vibrio starvation - favorite books

[Guest guest]

That's my understanding.

It's also my understanding that coconut oil can damage

the outer envelope of lipid coated viruses and bacteria.

I assume that once there's damage to that envelope, the something else

(like an antibiotic - or chemicals made by the immune system) can

then do even MORE damage...

That's the theory behind lauricidin and cocnut oil.

Barb

>

> Re our previous discussion... my favorite book, Growth of the

Bacterial

> Cell, 1983, states in multiple places that bugs have no lipids

> whatsoever other than in the envelope membranes. So I dont know

what to

> think.

>

> By the way all, Growth of the Bacterial Cell can be bought

secondhand

> online for $7. Its pitched at a pretty high level. The grad

students in

> my lab would never stop laughing if they caught me reading a book

from

> 1983, but its just a great book.

>

> Theres a later updated version available for $25. Mines in the

mail.

> The same dudes are also editors of _E coli and S typhimurium_ which

is

> a standard 3000 page reference.

>

> Bacterial Stress Responses, 2000 is also interesting.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Barb

Occams razor would suggest that simple membrane alteration is sufficient explanation for changed response, no need to invoke unnecessary complications as Lauricidin on its own reputedly is beneficial

Regards

Wndsor

[infections] Re: Norman - lipids in vibrio starvation - favorite books

That's my understanding.It's also my understanding that coconut oil can damagethe outer envelope of lipid coated viruses and bacteria.I assume that once there's damage to that envelope, the something else(like an antibiotic - or chemicals made by the immune system) can then do even MORE damage...That's the theory behind lauricidin and cocnut oil.Barb>> Re our previous discussion... my favorite book, Growth of the Bacterial > Cell, 1983, states in multiple places that bugs have no lipids > whatsoever other than in the envelope membranes. So I dont know what to > think.> > By the way all, Growth of the Bacterial Cell can be bought secondhand > online for $7. Its pitched at a pretty high level. The grad students in > my lab would never stop laughing if they caught me reading a book from > 1983, but its just a great book.> > Theres a later updated version available for $25. Mines in the mail. > The same dudes are also editors of _E coli and S typhimurium_ which is > a standard 3000 page reference. > > Bacterial Stress Responses, 2000 is also interesting.>

[Guest guest]

I guess that's why my friend from Jamaica says " a coconut a day

keeps the Dr. away " (no abx).

Barb

> >

> > Re our previous discussion... my favorite book, Growth of the

> Bacterial

> > Cell, 1983, states in multiple places that bugs have no lipids

> > whatsoever other than in the envelope membranes. So I dont know

> what to

> > think.

> >

> > By the way all, Growth of the Bacterial Cell can be bought

> secondhand

> > online for $7. Its pitched at a pretty high level. The grad

> students in

> > my lab would never stop laughing if they caught me reading a

book

> from

> > 1983, but its just a great book.

> >

> > Theres a later updated version available for $25. Mines in the

> mail.

> > The same dudes are also editors of _E coli and S typhimurium_

which

> is

> > a standard 3000 page reference.

> >

> > Bacterial Stress Responses, 2000 is also interesting.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Jul 02, 2006 at 08:10:40PM -0000, wrote:

>Re our previous discussion... my favorite book, Growth of the Bacterial

>Cell, 1983, states in multiple places that bugs have no lipids

>whatsoever other than in the envelope membranes. So I dont know what to

>think.

So what do they do if they are fed a high-fat diet? Metabolize

it all instantly? Convert it all instantly to carbohydrates?

Neither would make much sense, compared to keeping some of it around

for future needs.

>By the way all, Growth of the Bacterial Cell can be bought secondhand

>online for $7. Its pitched at a pretty high level. The grad students in

>my lab would never stop laughing if they caught me reading a book from

>1983, but its just a great book.

>

>Theres a later updated version available for $25. Mines in the mail.

I can't find it. Did the title change?

>The same dudes are also editors of _E coli and S typhimurium_ which is

>a standard 3000 page reference.

>

>Bacterial Stress Responses, 2000 is also interesting.

[Guest guest]

> So what do they do if they are fed a high-fat diet? Metabolize

> it all instantly? Convert it all instantly to carbohydrates?

> Neither would make much sense, compared to keeping some of it

around

> for future needs.

Yeah, looks like they suck it right down the citric acid cycle (TCA):

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C11/C11Links/www.bact.wisc.edu/microte

xtbook/metabolism/RespFats.html

According to my reading, bacteria do contain one energy storage

polymer - glycogen (poly-glucose). I think they will also break down

functional biopolmyers for energy if they have to - starved bacteria

lose their extra chromosomes and plasmids.

> I can't find it. Did the title change?

Heres _Growth_: http://tinyurl.com/gc5h7

But I suspect you are talking about the 1990 update I mentioned,

_Physiology of the bacterial cell_. Its ~2x longer but I think they

may have cut out my favorite experiment, in which they suddenly

suspend growing cells in " foodless " saline buffer and [ATP] doesnt

go down at all.

I think one reason I enjoyed their book so much is it wasnt a

gruesome collision of conflicting data. But this week I'm not sure

all these things are actually so pat as they present. See the

authorship of Gourse to see how the controversy over [ATP] as a

function of growth rate has continued right up to the present. Even

Gourses last paper recanting his earlier technique (after

disconfirmation by another group using a nother technique) seems

overconfident... as noted in this monster 30 page review whose main

task is tackling the highly equivocal data history of [rRNA] control

investigations: http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/reprint/68/4/639.pdf

[Guest guest]

On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 03:54:37PM -0000, wrote:

>

>> So what do they do if they are fed a high-fat diet?

>> Metabolize it all instantly? Convert it all instantly to

>> carbohydrates? Neither would make much sense, compared to

>> keeping some of it around for future needs.

>

>Yeah, looks like they suck it right down the citric acid cycle (TCA):

>

>http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C11/C11Links/www.bact.wisc.edu/microte

>xtbook/metabolism/RespFats.html

That web page just says that they can use fats for energy,

not that they always use fats for energy instantly, and

never save them for later. If they did the latter, an

experiment which fed them a high-lipid diet would find

different results for their composition than an experiment

which fed them glucose.

>> I can't find it. Did the title change?

>

>Heres _Growth_: http://tinyurl.com/gc5h7

>But I suspect you are talking about the 1990 update I mentioned,

>_Physiology of the bacterial cell_.

Right; that book showed up on an author search, but it wasn't

clear that it was the update.

[Guest guest]

> That web page just says that they can use fats for energy,

> not that they always use fats for energy instantly, and

> never save them for later. If they did the latter, an

> experiment which fed them a high-lipid diet would find

> different results for their composition than an experiment

> which fed them glucose.

True and true.

I recall one of the Niedhart et al books says E coli has virtually

identical composition when grown on any energy substrate (all E coli

requires is a single usable energy substrate, plus of course, usable

forms of the several essential elements). And I have seen them

discuss various sugars as well as some amino acids as energy

substrates. Havent seen lipids mentioned - presumably just because

you cant dissolve any lipids in water, so the bacteria would only

grow at the phase interface, meaning you might be working pretty

hard to get an analyzable amount of cells. Maybe you could do it by

using some kinda stable emulsion, I wouldnt know.

Of course, if you hypothesize that they only stockpile molecules

during non-log phase, then looking at log-phase compositions like

these wouldnt be illuminating.