Re: new chronic ear infection finding

[Guest guest]

> I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take or

> not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do something

> thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change

> the pH.

Actually, perhaps I'm wrong. Its conceivable that the probiotic

organism could hog the nutrient supply and slowly replace the

pathogens. We shall see.

[Guest guest]

I agree. The part they always leave out in these revelatory reports is the widespread "misuse" of antibiotics by doctors that's really contributing to the problem. Rather than effectively using the right drug for the right bug, their solution is to stop all abx treatment. Rather than try to understand bacteria better or address the bio-films, they're just throwing their hands up, admitting defeat, without even trying to do the right testing and treatment. Can they possibly be this clueless? Or is there some kind of brainwashing going on? I just don't get it. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060712075834.htm'"Given that bacteria living in biofilms are metabolically resistant to antibiotics, this study makes a definitive, scientifically-based statement against the use of these drugs to treat children with chronic ear infections. It simply does not help the child and increases the risk of breeding more resistant strains of bacteria," he said.'"Our findings demonstrate what we have suspected for years, that children with chronic otitis media have biofilms in their middle ears. Healthy children do not. The idea of treating recurrent disease with antibiotics therefore is not supported by the scientific evidence," Dr. Post said. "Chronic

middle ear infection is not the result of a sterile inflammatory process, but an indolent bacterial disease. Understanding that, we can now begin to explore more effective treatments for it."'Hmmm... such as...? How bout lots and lots of really well-chosen abx, all at the same time?'Dr. Post said future therapies may be medical, technological or biological in nature, including the use of probiotics – an approach in which children are deliberately populated – but not infected – with good bacteria that prevent the formation of biofilms.'I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take or not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do something thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change the pH.

[Guest guest]

Hasn't been the case with all the people I know doing probiotics. Usually, the probiotics stop working after a while, which indicates the organisms have developed even more resistance, or as reported in one study, the infectious organism actually does some genetic swapping with the probiotic and turns it into an ally. This doc doesn't have enough information to make the kind of statement he's making. This kind of unscientific assumption is what patients get beat up for by docs. Not to mention, how many years behind the curve is he on this? penny <usenethod@...> wrote: > I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take or > not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do something > thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change > the pH.Actually, perhaps I'm wrong. Its conceivable that the probiotic organism could hog the nutrient supply and slowly replace the pathogens. We shall see.

[Guest guest]

well thought thru. They really need to put the infection under the

microscope to solve it.

>

>

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060712075834.htm

>

> ' " Given that bacteria living in biofilms are metabolically

resistant

> to antibiotics, this study makes a definitive, scientifically-

based

> statement against the use of these drugs to treat children with

> chronic ear infections. It simply does not help the child and

> increases the risk of breeding more resistant strains of

bacteria, "

> he said.

>

> ' " Our findings demonstrate what we have suspected for years, that

> children with chronic otitis media have biofilms in their middle

> ears. Healthy children do not. The idea of treating recurrent

disease

> with antibiotics therefore is not supported by the scientific

> evidence, " Dr. Post said. " Chronic middle ear infection is not the

> result of a sterile inflammatory process, but an indolent

bacterial

> disease. Understanding that, we can now begin to explore more

> effective treatments for it. " '

>

> Hmmm... such as...? How bout lots and lots of really well-chosen

abx,

> all at the same time?

>

> 'Dr. Post said future therapies may be medical, technological or

> biological in nature, including the use of probiotics – an

approach

> in which children are deliberately populated – but not infected –

> with good bacteria that prevent the formation of biofilms.'

>

> I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take

or

> not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do

something

> thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change

> the pH.

>

[Guest guest]

Penny , probiotics are none self , alien bacteria, the IS will produce antibodies against any introduced bacteria , hence the self limiting effect ..Its not a case of resistant organisms ..

-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:53infections Subject: Re: [infections] Re: new chronic ear infection finding

Hasn't been the case with all the people I know doing probiotics. Usually, the probiotics stop working after a while, which indicates the organisms have developed even more resistance, or as reported in one study, the infectious organism actually does some genetic swapping with the probiotic and turns it into an ally. This doc doesn't have enough information to make the kind of statement he's making. This kind of unscientific assumption is what patients get beat up for by docs. Not to mention, how many years behind the curve is he on this?

penny

<usenethod@...> wrote:

> I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take or > not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do something > thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change > the pH.Actually, perhaps I'm wrong. Its conceivable that the probiotic organism could hog the nutrient supply and slowly replace the pathogens. We shall see.

[Guest guest]

Could be. But it's a slow process then, because generally people will report good results for some weeks or even months before the probiotic loses its effectiveness. Are you thinking that the fungal forms don't develop resistance? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Penny , probiotics are none self , alien bacteria, the IS will produce antibodies against any introduced bacteria , hence the

self limiting effect ..Its not a case of resistant organisms .. -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:53infections Subject: Re: [infections] Re: new chronic ear infection finding Hasn't been the case with all the people I know doing probiotics. Usually, the probiotics stop working after a while, which indicates the organisms have developed even more resistance, or as reported in one study, the infectious organism actually does some genetic swapping with the probiotic and turns it into an ally. This doc doesn't have enough information to make the kind of statement he's making.

This kind of unscientific assumption is what patients get beat up for by docs. Not to mention, how many years behind the curve is he on this? penny <usenethod@...> wrote: > I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take or > not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do something > thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change > the pH.Actually, perhaps I'm wrong. Its conceivable that the probiotic organism could hog the nutrient supply and slowly replace the pathogens. We shall see.

[Guest guest]

I finally read this paper. Looks like a pretty solid finding to me.

The number of controls subjects examined was smallish.

I'm still not too excited about Dr. Post's philosophy of waging

peace.

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060712075834.htm

>

> ' " Given that bacteria living in biofilms are metabolically

resistant

> to antibiotics, this study makes a definitive, scientifically-

based

> statement against the use of these drugs to treat children with

> chronic ear infections. It simply does not help the child and

> increases the risk of breeding more resistant strains of

bacteria, "

> he said.

>

> ' " Our findings demonstrate what we have suspected for years, that

> children with chronic otitis media have biofilms in their middle

> ears. Healthy children do not. The idea of treating recurrent

disease

> with antibiotics therefore is not supported by the scientific

> evidence, " Dr. Post said. " Chronic middle ear infection is not the

> result of a sterile inflammatory process, but an indolent

bacterial

> disease. Understanding that, we can now begin to explore more

> effective treatments for it. " '

>

> Hmmm... such as...? How bout lots and lots of really well-chosen

abx,

> all at the same time?

>

> 'Dr. Post said future therapies may be medical, technological or

> biological in nature, including the use of probiotics – an

approach

> in which children are deliberately populated – but not infected –

> with good bacteria that prevent the formation of biofilms.'

>

> I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take

or

> not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do

something

> thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change

> the pH.

>

[Guest guest]

I just reread the article. I didn't notice this statement before: In an ongoing study at the University of Florida, researchers are inoculating children against cavities using a bacteria that sets up house in their teeth where plaque biofilms usually grow.Anyone know anything about this study? I'd be very interested in knowing which bacteria can prevent biofilms. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: I finally read this paper. Looks like a pretty solid finding to me. The number of controls subjects examined was smallish.I'm still not too excited about Dr. Post's philosophy of waging peace.> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060712075834.htm> > '"Given that bacteria living in biofilms are metabolically resistant > to antibiotics, this study makes a definitive, scientifically-based > statement against the use of these drugs to treat children with > chronic ear infections. It simply does not help the child and > increases the risk of breeding more resistant strains of bacteria," > he said.> > '"Our findings demonstrate what we have suspected for years, that > children with chronic

otitis media have biofilms in their middle > ears. Healthy children do not. The idea of treating recurrent disease > with antibiotics therefore is not supported by the scientific > evidence," Dr. Post said. "Chronic middle ear infection is not the > result of a sterile inflammatory process, but an indolent bacterial > disease. Understanding that, we can now begin to explore more > effective treatments for it."'> > Hmmm... such as...? How bout lots and lots of really well-chosen abx, > all at the same time?> > 'Dr. Post said future therapies may be medical, technological or > biological in nature, including the use of probiotics – an approach > in which children are deliberately populated – but not infected – > with good bacteria that prevent the formation of biofilms.'> > I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take or

> not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do something > thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change > the pH.>

[Guest guest]

I just reread the article. I didn't notice this statement before: In an ongoing study at the University of Florida, researchers are inoculating children against cavities using a bacteria that sets up house in their teeth where plaque biofilms usually grow.Anyone know anything about this study? I'd be very interested in knowing which bacteria can prevent biofilms. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: I finally read this paper. Looks like a pretty solid finding to me. The number of controls subjects examined was smallish.I'm still not too excited about Dr. Post's philosophy of waging peace.> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060712075834.htm> > '"Given that bacteria living in biofilms are metabolically resistant > to antibiotics, this study makes a definitive, scientifically-based > statement against the use of these drugs to treat children with > chronic ear infections. It simply does not help the child and > increases the risk of breeding more resistant strains of bacteria," > he said.> > '"Our findings demonstrate what we have suspected for years, that > children with chronic

otitis media have biofilms in their middle > ears. Healthy children do not. The idea of treating recurrent disease > with antibiotics therefore is not supported by the scientific > evidence," Dr. Post said. "Chronic middle ear infection is not the > result of a sterile inflammatory process, but an indolent bacterial > disease. Understanding that, we can now begin to explore more > effective treatments for it."'> > Hmmm... such as...? How bout lots and lots of really well-chosen abx, > all at the same time?> > 'Dr. Post said future therapies may be medical, technological or > biological in nature, including the use of probiotics – an approach > in which children are deliberately populated – but not infected – > with good bacteria that prevent the formation of biofilms.'> > I hope it works, but I am skeptical. More bugs, whether they take or

> not, arent going to get rid of the biofilms unless they do something > thats untenable for the biofilm bacteria, such as radically change > the pH.>