Re: Dr. admits on TV that SSRIs can cause long-term sexual problems

January 13, 2006

i think it does take a long time in some people. but at what point

do you say, enough is enough and i want something done *now* !?

when did you see him for the first time?

> >

> > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10809088/

> >

> > It looks very much like he admitted it. He says SSRIs can do

the

> same

> > thing as the birth control pill. What do you guys think?

> >

> > Vornan

> >

>

January 13, 2006

DR. DREW " Now here‘s evidence that not only are

these people going to have affects while they‘re

taking the medicine, but it may go on for months and

we really don‘t know how long after.

Unfortunately, I‘ve seen the same thing with

antidepressant medicines, too. It‘s another thing we

commonly prescribe for patients...

CARLSON: Well, I think that‘s widely known—at least

in my experience, in talking to people. I think it‘s

widely known that if you go on certain

antidepressants, it can affect your libido, but I have

almost never heard anybody say that the pill, which—I

don‘t know. "

- Yes, it sounds like he admitted it but that Tucker

Carlson didn't quite get what he was saying, that the

effects from ssri's can be long-LASTING...and just

responded about them causing SD in general.

I say this story still needs to break - and if so who

knows maybe some doctors will come out of the woodwork

too, who actually will admit to having seen this

before. At least here are 2 guys who understand that

this is a SERIOUS loss.

--- v0rnan19 wrote:

> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10809088/

>

> It looks very much like he admitted it. He says

> SSRIs can do the same

> thing as the birth control pill. What do you guys

> think?

>

> Vornan

>

__________________________________________________

January 13, 2006

yeah, you're right. drew was starting to talk about it then carlson

missed it. this story definitely still needs to break, but the dam

is cracking. interesting that they mentioned the pill could be

affecting society. i've said before, including on this board, that i

think ssris are adversely changing society and i think this might be

borne out eventually.

>

> > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10809088/

> >

> > It looks very much like he admitted it. He says

> > SSRIs can do the same

> > thing as the birth control pill. What do you guys

> > think?

> >

> > Vornan

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

January 13, 2006

I remember listening to loveline every night hoping to hear anything

about the problem I was having before joining the site. I remember him

talking about that if patients dont taper off these drugs right, it can

cause long time or even permanant side effect, he wasnt talking about

he wasnt talking libido though.

January 13, 2006

I believe he said something about tapering off the drugs right and him

mentioning it can cause problem if not tapered off right.

I remember the caller was on the antidepresent and his concern wasnt

sexual, I believe, I think it was some other problem, they were talking

about bipolar. Sorry for being vague, I cant remember in details, Its

been a while and I have bad memory.

>

> Did he really say that? I haven't seen any studies on tapering, but

> maybe he was talking about some of his patients. And what long-term

> problems was he referring to?

>

> V

>

> I remember him

> > talking about that if patients dont taper off these drugs right, it

> can

> > cause long time or even permanant side effect, he wasnt talking

> about

> > he wasnt talking libido though.

> >

>

January 13, 2006

yea this idea kind of aggravates me too, but I really doubt our problem

was caused only by not tapering off. The other thing scares me is the

fact that I changed antidepressant like candy without doing the proper

tapering off. I was on both prozac,zoloft and was wondering which drug

messed me up more. They both felt different I gotta say prozac was the

worse of the two. Prozac gave me uncontrollable energy to a point other

people can tell something was wrong with me while I had suicidal

thought attack which scared the crap out of me. Zoloft on the other

hand felt sleepy for a week and it went away and afterwards It was

controllable.

> this possibility aggravates me more than anything

> else. I quit cold-turkey and if that's the only

> reason this thing happened I am doubly upset about it

> all.

January 14, 2006

From what I understand, Prozac has by far the longest half-life of

any SSRI (7 to 15 DAYS and not hours as some other SSRI's). Since it

takes such a long time to clear the body entirely, months

apparently, it is supposedly associated with fewer of the tpyically

reported discontinuation-specific syndromes (dizziness, nausea,

shock sensations in the head, cognitive fogginess). I've read that

switching to Prozac in order to taper is common. As far as sexual

problems, we are the experts. So stopping Prozac cold turkey (as I

did after three years) probably shouldn't be adding to our problems

as I see it, since the drug's long half life provides its own

tapering effect. I believe the damage was done while on the drug,

but who knows. I am interested in understanding more about group

members' experiences stopping SSRI's related to what symptoms were

NEWLY experienced after quitting (to me this would be defined as

a 'discontinuation' syndrome) vs. what symptoms simply continued or

only slightly abated after quitting (for me, these would

be 'persistent' side effects). For me, sexual problems and

diminished emotional range started on Prozac and continued. But the

awful sleep problems, some cognitive haziness, and body temperature

problems began after stopping.

Because of its long half life, other SSRI's or ANY other drug that

is metabolized via the CY450 D26 enzyme (this encompasses about 20%

of prescription medications)should not be started right after

stopping Prozac (or taken concurrently with Prozac). One apparently

should wait a few months. So starting another SSRI right on top of

stopping Prozac is not a good idea, but I think it is standard

prescribing practice to switch immediately from one to another just

as Zoloftscrewed's prescriber had him do. This is unconscionale and

ought to alone be basis enough for a law suit. I've also learned

that while Prozac has the longest half-life and is most 'potent' in

that way, Paxil uses the most 2D6 enzyme to metabolize. So it is

most dangerous to take concurrently with other 2D6-using drugs.

BTW, I am still anxiously awaiting results of my genetic testing.

Velden

>

> > yea this idea kind of aggravates me too, but I

> > really doubt our problem

> > was caused only by not tapering off. The other thing

> > scares me is the

> > fact that I changed antidepressant like candy

> > without doing the proper

> > tapering off. I was on both prozac,zoloft and was

> > wondering which drug

> > messed me up more. They both felt different I gotta

> > say prozac was the

> > worse of the two. Prozac gave me uncontrollable

> > energy to a point other

> > people can tell something was wrong with me while I

> > had suicidal

> > thought attack which scared the crap out of me.

> > Zoloft on the other

> > hand felt sleepy for a week and it went away and

> > afterwards It was

> > controllable.

> >

> > > this possibility aggravates me more than anything

> > > else. I quit cold-turkey and if that's the only

> > > reason this thing happened I am doubly upset about

> > it

> > > all.

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

January 14, 2006

Although it is mentioned briefly, hopefully this is just the beginning

of getting awareness out. I wish it was discussed more, but obviously

the topic was intended to be about the problems with birth control.

We're heading down the right path...

Luther

>

> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10809088/

>

> It looks very much like he admitted it. He says SSRIs can do the

same

> thing as the birth control pill. What do you guys think?

>

> Vornan

>

January 14, 2006

I actually was tapering off my paxil, because I was sick of meds and

then my mom pretty much demanded I go to some new doctor. The guy

ripped me off paxil really fast than switched me right over to

effexor. I flipped out bad for about 2 weeks. I wish I didn't listen

to her and went with my instinct instead of going on effexor for

another year and a half.

>

> this possibility aggravates me more than anything

> else. I quit cold-turkey and if that's the only

> reason this thing happened I am doubly upset about it

> all.

>

January 14, 2006

It's interesting to me that many folks here have persistant insomnia

during and after SSRI treatment. In my pre-celexa days, I had

moderate insomnia due to the fact I was depressed and my mind was

always " racing " . Once I was on Celexa and after stopping, my

insomnia went away completely. Even today, I fall asleep almost as

soon as my head hits the pillow. I've always thought this was due to

my decreased emotional range, as thoughts in general rarely stay in

my mind for more than a few seconds, so nothing distracts me from

getting to sleep.

I guess my question is what causes everyone's insomnia? Is it

difficulty relaxing, anxiety, depression, or something else?

Luther

> > >

> > > > yea this idea kind of aggravates me too, but I

> > > > really doubt our problem

> > > > was caused only by not tapering off. The other

> > thing

> > > > scares me is the

> > > > fact that I changed antidepressant like candy

> > > > without doing the proper

> > > > tapering off. I was on both prozac,zoloft and

> > was

> > > > wondering which drug

> > > > messed me up more. They both felt different I

> > gotta

> > > > say prozac was the

> > > > worse of the two. Prozac gave me uncontrollable

> > > > energy to a point other

> > > > people can tell something was wrong with me

> > while I

> > > > had suicidal

> > > > thought attack which scared the crap out of me.

> > > > Zoloft on the other

> > > > hand felt sleepy for a week and it went away and

> > > > afterwards It was

> > > > controllable.

> > > >

> > > > > this possibility aggravates me more than

> > anything

> > > > > else. I quit cold-turkey and if that's the

> > only

> > > > > reason this thing happened I am doubly upset

> > about

> > > > it

> > > > > all.

> > > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________________________

> > >

January 15, 2006

That's interesting that your sleep was improved while on Celexa and has remained

so

since stopping. It sounds like anxiety interfered with sleep before the

medication and that

there has been some enduring decrease in your level of anxiety. Or maybe as you

say--

anxiety requires staying focused on worrysome thoughts by definition, and this

just

doesn't happen anymore. I've thought that a good part of my problem with sex is

that I'm

physically unable to relax anymore. High cortisol or something. But this must

not be the

case for you?

Just as you seem to have some enduring change in your level of anxiety, I have

not been

depressed since stopping Prozac. I think I've changed in terms of how I regard

negative

feelings. I've certainly been furious and despairing about the losses in

sexuality and in

ability to sleep, but this is not the same as depression. I've also been

grief-stricken for a

full year after a long term relationship ended (because of my inability to be

fully sexual)

and my conviction that I would spend my life alone.

But, grief, fury and despair are not the same as depression. I think of

depression as a

diffuse feeling, perhaps without clear reasons or accompanied by the belief that

one is

powerless to change the feelings. Medicating perfectly reasonable though

uncomfortable

feelings is a sickness of our culture that I allowed myself to be seduced into.

Uncomfortable feelings should be taken to therapy.

For me, sleep was just fine on Prozac. though I had nightmares, my sleep was

deep and

restorative. I think if Prozac had kept me from sleeping I might not have

persisted on it. I

literally never had sleep problems before Prozac and my depression didn't

interfere with

sleep ever, just as it never interfered with enjoyment of sex. I used sleep to

escape. I am

so angry that even that way of coping is not available to me anymore. Depression

often

has a a lot of accompanying anxiety, but mine was not so. I've learned that

physicians

often determine which SSRI to prescribe based on whether an individual's

depression is

characterized by accompanying anxiety or by lethargy. Prozac is one of the most

'activating' of the SSRI's so given for low- energy depression , while Paxil and

Celexa are

supposedly more sedating so given for anxious depression. I know I stayed on

Prozac

because I felt energized, like on an amphetamine. I think this is the main

reason I stayed

on it in spite of sexual numbness. Anyway, my sleep problems occured only after

stopping

Prozac. I attribute it to a physiological inability to relax fully and not a

psychological

difficulty relaxing. Like Abigail, I feel wide awake as soon as I oepn my eyes.

There is never

any sense of emerging from the altered state of a deep sleep, as if the

transition from

being asleep to being awake is a very thin one.

Velden

> > > >

> > > > > yea this idea kind of aggravates me too, but I

> > > > > really doubt our problem

> > > > > was caused only by not tapering off. The other

> > > thing

> > > > > scares me is the

> > > > > fact that I changed antidepressant like candy

> > > > > without doing the proper

> > > > > tapering off. I was on both prozac,zoloft and

> > > was

> > > > > wondering which drug

> > > > > messed me up more. They both felt different I

> > > gotta

> > > > > say prozac was the

> > > > > worse of the two. Prozac gave me uncontrollable

> > > > > energy to a point other

> > > > > people can tell something was wrong with me

> > > while I

> > > > > had suicidal

> > > > > thought attack which scared the crap out of me.

> > > > > Zoloft on the other

> > > > > hand felt sleepy for a week and it went away and

> > > > > afterwards It was

> > > > > controllable.

> > > > >

> > > > > > this possibility aggravates me more than

> > > anything

> > > > > > else. I quit cold-turkey and if that's the

> > > only

> > > > > > reason this thing happened I am doubly upset

> > > about

> > > > > it

> > > > > > all.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > __________________________________________________

> > > >

January 15, 2006

> I've thought that a good part of my problem with sex is that I'm

> physically unable to relax anymore. High cortisol or something.

> But this must not be the case for you?

I agree. When I'm relaxed and feeling stress free, I am more easily

aroused and my libido increases a bit. Still nowhere near where I

should be though.

> But, grief, fury and despair are not the same as depression.

They can be elements of depression though. I've had continuous

depression for 2 plus years now. My main symptom is severe apathy,

but I do have bouts of despair that come and go. Before going on

Celexa, I was constantly irritated and had quite a bit of fury for

foolish reasons. This fueled my depression at the time.

I think SSRIs in general cause varying degrees of neurotransmitter

imbalance and depletion. I think in my case I'm slightly lower than

I should be in all the major ones - dopamine, norepinephrine, and

serotonin. Those of us that have insomnia possibly may have higher

levels of norepinephrine. All speculation.

Luther

> For me, sleep was just fine on Prozac. though I had nightmares, my

sleep was deep and

> restorative. I think if Prozac had kept me from sleeping I might

not have persisted on it. I

> literally never had sleep problems before Prozac and my depression

didn't interfere with

> sleep ever, just as it never interfered with enjoyment of sex. I

used sleep to escape. I am

> so angry that even that way of coping is not available to me

anymore. Depression often

> has a a lot of accompanying anxiety, but mine was not so. I've

learned that physicians

> often determine which SSRI to prescribe based on whether an

individual's depression is

> characterized by accompanying anxiety or by lethargy. Prozac is

one of the most

> 'activating' of the SSRI's so given for low- energy depression ,

while Paxil and Celexa are

> supposedly more sedating so given for anxious depression. I know

I stayed on Prozac

> because I felt energized, like on an amphetamine. I think this is

the main reason I stayed

> on it in spite of sexual numbness. Anyway, my sleep problems

occured only after stopping

> Prozac. I attribute it to a physiological inability to relax fully

and not a psychological

> difficulty relaxing. Like Abigail, I feel wide awake as soon as I

oepn my eyes. There is never

> any sense of emerging from the altered state of a deep sleep, as

if the transition from

> being asleep to being awake is a very thin one.

> Velden

>

> > > > >

> > > > > > yea this idea kind of aggravates me too, but I

> > > > > > really doubt our problem

> > > > > > was caused only by not tapering off. The other

> > > > thing

> > > > > > scares me is the

> > > > > > fact that I changed antidepressant like candy

> > > > > > without doing the proper

> > > > > > tapering off. I was on both prozac,zoloft and

> > > > was

> > > > > > wondering which drug

> > > > > > messed me up more. They both felt different I

> > > > gotta

> > > > > > say prozac was the

> > > > > > worse of the two. Prozac gave me uncontrollable

> > > > > > energy to a point other

> > > > > > people can tell something was wrong with me

> > > > while I

> > > > > > had suicidal

> > > > > > thought attack which scared the crap out of me.

> > > > > > Zoloft on the other

> > > > > > hand felt sleepy for a week and it went away and

> > > > > > afterwards It was

> > > > > > controllable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > this possibility aggravates me more than

> > > > anything

> > > > > > > else. I quit cold-turkey and if that's the

> > > > only

> > > > > > > reason this thing happened I am doubly upset

> > > > about

> > > > > > it

> > > > > > > all.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > __________________________________________________

> > > > >

January 15, 2006

I found this extract about how serotonin is involved in far more

functions in the body than just regulating mood.Sleep is listed as

one of them.

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/pinealstory.htm

In 1948, Maurice Rapport, a haematologist, found that serotonin

tended to make blood form clots, and it tended to be a muscle- as

well as a vasoconstrictor. Next to be a muscle- and vasoconstrictor,

serotonin plays an important role in sleep, appetite, memory, sexual

behaviour, respiratory activity, aggression, motor output, sensory

and neuroendocrine function, but most important, perception!

Theres some more general advice in " natures prozac " .I dont know if it

may be helpful..

Say no to coffeine

If you do nothing else ,get yourself off this stimulant.It should

take about a week to wean yourself from coffee,tea,soda and cocoa but

you will find the difference astounding.You can substitute herbal

teas (some sleep-inducing) and roasted grain beverages such as Pero

and Roma Kaffree.

Dont nap-

If youre exhausted during the day,you may be tempted to lie down

for a few brief winks.But because naps are typically short (in the

daytime,the body doesnt produce enough melatonin to knock you out for

8 hours),you dont get down to those deep layers of stage 3 and stage

4 sleep that restore body and mind.Fight off the inclination to sleep

during the day by doing some deep breathing ,meditation,yoga or tai

chi.Then youll be ready to conk out at night

Valerian -

Valerian is a traditional herbal sleep remedy and works for nearly

everyone.Take 1/2 to 1 teaspoon of the tincture half an hour before

bed.In some individuals it causes headaches however if this proves

true for you,you may wish to try other sedative herbs such as

hops,jamaica dogwood,passionflower or wild lettuce.

Homeopathic sleep aids -

Try the following remedies to help you sleep -

If you are sleepless and restless with anxious dreams: aconite

If you are wide awake in the evening,have restless sleep and wake

unrefreshed : pulsatilla

If you talk and twitch in your sleep and awake frequently:sulphur

Melatonin -

By supplementing the bodys own melatonin ,we can achieve better

sleep.It works best when taken an hour or 2 before bed.Start with 1

mg daily,increasing your dosage gradually only if necessary.You

cannot overdose on this supplement - high doses of 40-80 mg have been

used in studies and with older invividuals; however you may get very

sleepy at doses over 5 mg daily.

Avoid OTC drugs-

Over-the-counter medications to induce sleep usually contain mild

antihistamines that dry your mucous membranes and give your mouth a

cotton-woll feeling.They also have a half-life that extends beyond

your sleep period which makes you wake up drowsy.You also need

increasing amounts of these drugs as you become habituated to

them.The best course is never to start taking them.

January 15, 2006

hey i was wondering if you plan on contacting this doctor to discuss

his findings and our concerns.

In SSRIsex , " v0rnan19 " <vornan19@g...> wrote:

>

> there is a webcast of the interview also if you click on the video

link.

> interesting that they discuss pregnancy also, but i disagree with

his

> conclusions about that.

>

> vornan

>

> -- In SSRIsex , " v0rnan19 " <vornan19@g...> wrote:

> >

> > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10809088/

> >

> > It looks very much like he admitted it. He says SSRIs can do the

> same

> > thing as the birth control pill. What do you guys think?

> >

> > Vornan

> >

>

January 16, 2006

Yes, I might contact him when my paper is published so that

hopefully he will talk about it on the show.

Vornan

> > >

> > > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10809088/

> > >

> > > It looks very much like he admitted it. He says SSRIs can do

the

> > same

> > > thing as the birth control pill. What do you guys think?

> > >

> > > Vornan

> > >

> >

>

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