Watchdog Healthcheck

[Guest guest]

During the programme, I emailed them and raised those same issues. No reply

(surprise surprise) other the automatic thingy saying they'd received my

email. I'll let you know if I get a response - but don't hold your breath!

Haughton

[Guest guest]

Hello Sue, yes I saw it and you beat me to it.....I was jumping up and down

too for all the same reasons. Isn't it different now from a few years ago.

No mention of osteopathy or chiropractic......once considered very

alternative....they had the two people with back pain and did the Reichi

thing. Of course osteopathy and chiropractic are mainstream.......how

different from some years ago when GP's could be struck off for suggesting

such things. Herbal medicine was considered as pharmaceutically suspect.

Now they realise that herbal medicine is active they now consider it

potentially dangerous. The message that should go out is that herbal

medicines have actions that can be utilised for the benefit of people under

guidance from an expert who knows how to exert an effect on an individual

persons system. Bottom line. Herbs work, people need expert care for

chronic health problems. We don't treat the disease we use the herbs to

affect changes in the systems or tissues as we see fit. It takes an expert

to see where changes need to be made. We must stop the trend to compare

drugs for herbs. Orthodox medicine does the best job in tail end

medicine......it controls things......blocks things. Herbs don't do that.

Herbs exert a multiplicity of effects........the difference in approach is

the thing that needs emphasizing to the media. It is because everyone has

realised now that herbs have potent actions that it is compared with

drugs......this is the mistake. Useful for research but not in

phytotherapy.................we don't block, control, stop, start with

herbs. We use the effects from a different viewpoint. The programmme was

absurd but typical. Anyone else see it? By the way Dr Lewith isn't a

GP he works in a private practice using acupuncture and other

things........not an expert in herbal therapy. Edzard Ernst is clearly of

the opinion that herbs are just pharmaceuticals. How I wish he had attended

the seminar by Dr JC Lapraz recently. Edzard's idea,

reductionist........isn't what we do........one needs a lot of skill and

knowledge to use phytotherapy intelligently.........we don't use the herbs

as drugs........what will it take??????

lind Blackwell ND MNIMH

[Guest guest]

Hi, everyone,

I watched the program with disgust. I am considering a complaint to the

Broadcasting Complaints Commission. The program said that herbal medicines

that are not licensed could be dangerous. It made no mention of the 1968

Medicines Act or the fact it is impossible to obtain a license for a herbal

medicine in practice as the same testing (including irrelevant animal

testing) process has to be carried out as for a pharmaceutical. This process

can take years and cost £500,000. With a pharmaceutical however the company

has 25 years to sell that product before anyone can set up in competition.

But as Herbs cannot be patented (Thankfully) then no herbal medicine company

would be able to recoup its investment. The only licenses existing for herbal

medicines were given to those Manufacturers already in production in 1968 and

covered their existing products at that time.

As manufacturers the Herbal Apothecary is campaigning for a new type of

medicines license to cover herbal medicines. This would allow the MCA to

inspect facilities, production methods and quality control and allow herbal

medicines to make available the same information as pharmaceuticals e.g. we

are not allowed to discuss dosage or usage with a qualified herbalist (The

way to get round this is to talk to as one herbalist to another).

Section 12 of the 1968 Medicines Act gives no exception for Herbal Creams.

These are governed by the Cosmetics Safety Regulations (1997) which states

that a safety assessment must be made on any formulation by a qualified

person (they state Doctor, Pharmacist, Chartered Chemist & Chartered

Biologist). There is also a list of banned ingredients which include STEROIDS

which are only allowed in licensed medicines. These regulations can be found

at http://dg3.eudra.org

I also noticed that they made no differentiation between standardised

extracts and traditional herbal extracts. I believe if the law was tested

then standardised extracts would not fall under the definition of

'traditional " and should therefore require a medicines license.

Also anyone from Westminster, Middlesex, Glasgow, etc. want to comment on the

point that Prof.Ernst heads the ONLY centre of excellence in complimentary

medicine?

The whole program was poorly researched and extremely biased in its

presentation.

Whitton BSc(Hons), AIBMS,AMRSC, C.Biol, M.I.Biol

Senior Scientist

Herbal Apothecary Ltd

High Street

Syston

Leicester

LE7 1GQ

Tel: 0

Fax: 0116260 2757

Direct Tel: 0

email: awhitton@...

[Guest guest]

From: Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon

We must exercise our right to reply on this programme.

Its raison d'etre as a programme protecting consumers and its pretence at

balance was done purely at our expense.

Urine drinking was thrown in for wierdness and colour.

Acupuncturists came out well - they interviewed a Chinese trained

practitioner and a medical acupuncturist, as well as people who had benefited

from the treatment.

The " dangerous " side of complementary therapy focused on herbs.

This included an interview with a woman on Hypericum who had become pregnant

despite taking the morning-after pill, and after talking to her pharmacist,

concluded that it was the herb's fault. Kava was reported by Rippon as

being withdrawn after " research showing that it could cause liver damage. "

Aristolochia came in, steroid creams found in OTC Chinese skin creams, the

danger of using herbs before and after surgery.

Edzard Ernst, responding to an interview with a woman who had used raspberry

leaf and peppermint tea during pregnancy, stated that no herbs, including

these, should be taken at any point during pregancy.

There was also a comment by someone whose name I missed that anyone could set

themselves up as a complementary therapist - it didn't mention training of

any description, or the fact that untrained people would not obtain insurance.

The word " herbalist " , trained or otherwise, was never mentioned.

My other profession is that of a journalist, a breed much despised as a

result of the carryings-on by our tabloid bretheren. Consumer journalism can

easily slip into scaremongering as it needs threats and dangers against which

consumers need to be protected. However, this was a BBC programme, not

Channel 5, and I do expect better standards for my licence fee.

Could someone also explain to me what exactly it is that Exeter University

Department of Complementary Medicine does other than send me regular invoices

for the overprices FACT journal, to which I do not subscribe, and give Edzard

Ernst a professorial platform from which he can raise his public profile by

scaremongering about the dangers of herbs in any medium prepared to air his

views.

When I was watching the programme I initially thought it was yet another

example of our poor public profile, but it became evident that we were

deliberately excluded to provide the dramatic contrast.

A robust response please from Council, EPHA etc.

Krystyna

[Guest guest]

Sue,

Surely most telewatchers are out for entertainment, which increasingly seems

to imply at least a bit of prejudicial bashing someone or something, and

preferably something that is already down (not that we are!). However, both

my wife and my mother, who are not involved in this profession, thought it

came over very well - extraordinary isn't it ?

Ernst has never once shown himself on 'our side', if indeed one admits to

'sides' in our wonderful scientific democracy.

He is a career medical academic who probably hopes that his pontifications

will elevate him to some govt. quango, laying down the dogma for the serfs.

As such prime time tele entertainment is a good wheeze. There were a couple

of well informed and balanced opinions eg the chap from the Committee who

advise the MCA (a few seconds) and the complementary doc. I think that

truth

must prevail and I don't worry too much about the mob - look at the

accompanying programmes last night - most of it is carefully designed not to

challenge any facility for critical review, but to anaesthetise the Monday

night senses with an overwhelming deluge of shockingly pointless

information.

And do people really expect anything else from TV nowdays ?

Hang on to your pyschoneuroendocrinoimmune systems...

...and yes, Ros, shouldn't a lot more people get real with Lapraz ??

Love to all

Watchdog Healthcheck

> Hi everyone,

>

> Did anyone see Watchdog Healthcheck tonight? (Mon 4th), it was about

Complementary Medicine and included a section on herbs. The safety of

Raspberry leaf tea was brought into question (in fact the advise was not to

use it), Gingko, Piper and Hypericum were all given a mention. Concerns

about safety, combining with other prescribed drugs, etc were brought up,

very real concerns I know, but what are we all trained to do? Aren't we the

experts here? Prof Ernst (is that man on our side?) gave his opinion that

although a herbalist will tell you herbs are safe, research and clinical

trials must be performed and that evidence must be provided to prove them

so.

>

> The jist of the report was damning on herbal remedies, and, my main gripe

is that no differentation was made between the pitfalls of OTC

self-prescribing (most of the herbs pictured were Holland & Barratt,

etc,etc) and the advice of a properly qualified Herbalist. Certainly there

was no mention of the Institute, or any recommendation to seek treatment

from specialists in the field such as us!

>

> A report such as this, has the potential to do much damage to our

credibility and we can ill afford it - I still struggle to get patients. It

was on primetime BBC, it strikes me that the Institute must raise it's

profile, big time. Researchers for these programmes should be thinking,

Herbalism - National Institue, in the same breath! A little ambitious

perhaps, but surely they shouldn't be able to research Herbal Medicine

without falling over the Institute's name somewhere.

>

> On a more positive note there was a token gesture by a GP who is also a

Complementary therapist who was given a few seconds to say that Raspberry

leaf tea was OK to take in pregnancy and that moves were being made by the

Gov to invest in research, but blink and you'd miss it!

>

> All the best,

> from a disgruntled Sue Cobbold sue.cobbold@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Was so outraged at the programme that I called the complaints line during the

show and tried not to sound too incoherent about my disgust at the programme.

If you do want to make a complaint, you can via the BBC website -

bbc.co.uk/info/contact

It gives you a chance to write quite a long piece if you so choose.

Is it not possible to lodge some sort of formal complaint with the BBC from

the Institute, or from the EHPA, as they were very rude about Chinese herbs

too?

Perhaps also if many people complain, they might (slim chance) allow some

sort of comeback from herbalists.

We must do something to stop items like that.

Stille MNIMH

PS Perhaps I've been out of things too long - but just who exactly is this

Prof. Ernst?

[Guest guest]

From experience Watchdog are like fort 'knocks'..I felt that much of their

programme was based on the last 'Which Report'(August 2001) which a number

of NIMH members (and Ernst) contributed to..they obviously sourced people

from this...MM was interviewed and I expected to see him..these people have

a tabloid approach and I have always suspected political influences area

around..and they always will be!! the NIMH response will be on the bulletein

board..it would be useful to collate responses/replies (if any from BBC) for

future ammo..plse copy to me or Nigel Wynne for Bulletein Board..

Trudy

tlnorris@...

PS I taped the pgmme..but look at the Which Report...

Re: Watchdog Healthcheck

> During the programme, I emailed them and raised those same issues. No

reply

> (surprise surprise) other the automatic thingy saying they'd received my

> email. I'll let you know if I get a response - but don't hold your breath!

>

> Haughton

>

>

>