Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 During the programme, I emailed them and raised those same issues. No reply (surprise surprise) other the automatic thingy saying they'd received my email. I'll let you know if I get a response - but don't hold your breath! Haughton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Hello Sue, yes I saw it and you beat me to it.....I was jumping up and down too for all the same reasons. Isn't it different now from a few years ago. No mention of osteopathy or chiropractic......once considered very alternative....they had the two people with back pain and did the Reichi thing. Of course osteopathy and chiropractic are mainstream.......how different from some years ago when GP's could be struck off for suggesting such things. Herbal medicine was considered as pharmaceutically suspect. Now they realise that herbal medicine is active they now consider it potentially dangerous. The message that should go out is that herbal medicines have actions that can be utilised for the benefit of people under guidance from an expert who knows how to exert an effect on an individual persons system. Bottom line. Herbs work, people need expert care for chronic health problems. We don't treat the disease we use the herbs to affect changes in the systems or tissues as we see fit. It takes an expert to see where changes need to be made. We must stop the trend to compare drugs for herbs. Orthodox medicine does the best job in tail end medicine......it controls things......blocks things. Herbs don't do that. Herbs exert a multiplicity of effects........the difference in approach is the thing that needs emphasizing to the media. It is because everyone has realised now that herbs have potent actions that it is compared with drugs......this is the mistake. Useful for research but not in phytotherapy.................we don't block, control, stop, start with herbs. We use the effects from a different viewpoint. The programmme was absurd but typical. Anyone else see it? By the way Dr Lewith isn't a GP he works in a private practice using acupuncture and other things........not an expert in herbal therapy. Edzard Ernst is clearly of the opinion that herbs are just pharmaceuticals. How I wish he had attended the seminar by Dr JC Lapraz recently. Edzard's idea, reductionist........isn't what we do........one needs a lot of skill and knowledge to use phytotherapy intelligently.........we don't use the herbs as drugs........what will it take?????? lind Blackwell ND MNIMH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Hi, everyone, I watched the program with disgust. I am considering a complaint to the Broadcasting Complaints Commission. The program said that herbal medicines that are not licensed could be dangerous. It made no mention of the 1968 Medicines Act or the fact it is impossible to obtain a license for a herbal medicine in practice as the same testing (including irrelevant animal testing) process has to be carried out as for a pharmaceutical. This process can take years and cost £500,000. With a pharmaceutical however the company has 25 years to sell that product before anyone can set up in competition. But as Herbs cannot be patented (Thankfully) then no herbal medicine company would be able to recoup its investment. The only licenses existing for herbal medicines were given to those Manufacturers already in production in 1968 and covered their existing products at that time. As manufacturers the Herbal Apothecary is campaigning for a new type of medicines license to cover herbal medicines. This would allow the MCA to inspect facilities, production methods and quality control and allow herbal medicines to make available the same information as pharmaceuticals e.g. we are not allowed to discuss dosage or usage with a qualified herbalist (The way to get round this is to talk to as one herbalist to another). Section 12 of the 1968 Medicines Act gives no exception for Herbal Creams. These are governed by the Cosmetics Safety Regulations (1997) which states that a safety assessment must be made on any formulation by a qualified person (they state Doctor, Pharmacist, Chartered Chemist & Chartered Biologist). There is also a list of banned ingredients which include STEROIDS which are only allowed in licensed medicines. These regulations can be found at http://dg3.eudra.org I also noticed that they made no differentiation between standardised extracts and traditional herbal extracts. I believe if the law was tested then standardised extracts would not fall under the definition of 'traditional " and should therefore require a medicines license. Also anyone from Westminster, Middlesex, Glasgow, etc. want to comment on the point that Prof.Ernst heads the ONLY centre of excellence in complimentary medicine? The whole program was poorly researched and extremely biased in its presentation. Whitton BSc(Hons), AIBMS,AMRSC, C.Biol, M.I.Biol Senior Scientist Herbal Apothecary Ltd High Street Syston Leicester LE7 1GQ Tel: 0 Fax: 0116260 2757 Direct Tel: 0 email: awhitton@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 From: Krystyna Krzyzak MNIMH, North Devon We must exercise our right to reply on this programme. Its raison d'etre as a programme protecting consumers and its pretence at balance was done purely at our expense. Urine drinking was thrown in for wierdness and colour. Acupuncturists came out well - they interviewed a Chinese trained practitioner and a medical acupuncturist, as well as people who had benefited from the treatment. The " dangerous " side of complementary therapy focused on herbs. This included an interview with a woman on Hypericum who had become pregnant despite taking the morning-after pill, and after talking to her pharmacist, concluded that it was the herb's fault. Kava was reported by Rippon as being withdrawn after " research showing that it could cause liver damage. " Aristolochia came in, steroid creams found in OTC Chinese skin creams, the danger of using herbs before and after surgery. Edzard Ernst, responding to an interview with a woman who had used raspberry leaf and peppermint tea during pregnancy, stated that no herbs, including these, should be taken at any point during pregancy. There was also a comment by someone whose name I missed that anyone could set themselves up as a complementary therapist - it didn't mention training of any description, or the fact that untrained people would not obtain insurance. The word " herbalist " , trained or otherwise, was never mentioned. My other profession is that of a journalist, a breed much despised as a result of the carryings-on by our tabloid bretheren. Consumer journalism can easily slip into scaremongering as it needs threats and dangers against which consumers need to be protected. However, this was a BBC programme, not Channel 5, and I do expect better standards for my licence fee. Could someone also explain to me what exactly it is that Exeter University Department of Complementary Medicine does other than send me regular invoices for the overprices FACT journal, to which I do not subscribe, and give Edzard Ernst a professorial platform from which he can raise his public profile by scaremongering about the dangers of herbs in any medium prepared to air his views. When I was watching the programme I initially thought it was yet another example of our poor public profile, but it became evident that we were deliberately excluded to provide the dramatic contrast. A robust response please from Council, EPHA etc. Krystyna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 Sue, Surely most telewatchers are out for entertainment, which increasingly seems to imply at least a bit of prejudicial bashing someone or something, and preferably something that is already down (not that we are!). However, both my wife and my mother, who are not involved in this profession, thought it came over very well - extraordinary isn't it ? Ernst has never once shown himself on 'our side', if indeed one admits to 'sides' in our wonderful scientific democracy. He is a career medical academic who probably hopes that his pontifications will elevate him to some govt. quango, laying down the dogma for the serfs. As such prime time tele entertainment is a good wheeze. There were a couple of well informed and balanced opinions eg the chap from the Committee who advise the MCA (a few seconds) and the complementary doc. I think that truth must prevail and I don't worry too much about the mob - look at the accompanying programmes last night - most of it is carefully designed not to challenge any facility for critical review, but to anaesthetise the Monday night senses with an overwhelming deluge of shockingly pointless information. And do people really expect anything else from TV nowdays ? Hang on to your pyschoneuroendocrinoimmune systems... ...and yes, Ros, shouldn't a lot more people get real with Lapraz ?? Love to all Watchdog Healthcheck > Hi everyone, > > Did anyone see Watchdog Healthcheck tonight? (Mon 4th), it was about Complementary Medicine and included a section on herbs. The safety of Raspberry leaf tea was brought into question (in fact the advise was not to use it), Gingko, Piper and Hypericum were all given a mention. Concerns about safety, combining with other prescribed drugs, etc were brought up, very real concerns I know, but what are we all trained to do? Aren't we the experts here? Prof Ernst (is that man on our side?) gave his opinion that although a herbalist will tell you herbs are safe, research and clinical trials must be performed and that evidence must be provided to prove them so. > > The jist of the report was damning on herbal remedies, and, my main gripe is that no differentation was made between the pitfalls of OTC self-prescribing (most of the herbs pictured were Holland & Barratt, etc,etc) and the advice of a properly qualified Herbalist. Certainly there was no mention of the Institute, or any recommendation to seek treatment from specialists in the field such as us! > > A report such as this, has the potential to do much damage to our credibility and we can ill afford it - I still struggle to get patients. It was on primetime BBC, it strikes me that the Institute must raise it's profile, big time. Researchers for these programmes should be thinking, Herbalism - National Institue, in the same breath! A little ambitious perhaps, but surely they shouldn't be able to research Herbal Medicine without falling over the Institute's name somewhere. > > On a more positive note there was a token gesture by a GP who is also a Complementary therapist who was given a few seconds to say that Raspberry leaf tea was OK to take in pregnancy and that moves were being made by the Gov to invest in research, but blink and you'd miss it! > > All the best, > from a disgruntled Sue Cobbold sue.cobbold@... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 Was so outraged at the programme that I called the complaints line during the show and tried not to sound too incoherent about my disgust at the programme. If you do want to make a complaint, you can via the BBC website - bbc.co.uk/info/contact It gives you a chance to write quite a long piece if you so choose. Is it not possible to lodge some sort of formal complaint with the BBC from the Institute, or from the EHPA, as they were very rude about Chinese herbs too? Perhaps also if many people complain, they might (slim chance) allow some sort of comeback from herbalists. We must do something to stop items like that. Stille MNIMH PS Perhaps I've been out of things too long - but just who exactly is this Prof. Ernst? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2002 Report Share Posted February 6, 2002 From experience Watchdog are like fort 'knocks'..I felt that much of their programme was based on the last 'Which Report'(August 2001) which a number of NIMH members (and Ernst) contributed to..they obviously sourced people from this...MM was interviewed and I expected to see him..these people have a tabloid approach and I have always suspected political influences area around..and they always will be!! the NIMH response will be on the bulletein board..it would be useful to collate responses/replies (if any from BBC) for future ammo..plse copy to me or Nigel Wynne for Bulletein Board.. Trudy tlnorris@... PS I taped the pgmme..but look at the Which Report... Re: Watchdog Healthcheck > During the programme, I emailed them and raised those same issues. No reply > (surprise surprise) other the automatic thingy saying they'd received my > email. I'll let you know if I get a response - but don't hold your breath! > > Haughton > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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