Re: an interesting little tidbit about our cheap food

[Guest guest]

Chris-

This sounds fascinating. Do you happen to have a URL handy?

>based on a

>court ruling that it violated some law about adding non-food additives to

>food. But through various court appeals, it was ruled that Coca-cola

>could not be

>PREVENTED from producing Coke, but each and every time they had a truck ful

>confiscated, it had to be prosecuted in court separately. This made it

>basically impossible to enforce the illegality of Coke.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Nowadays though only white people teach black kids, and white kids.

I don't know what things are like in MA, but that's not true here in NYC.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/03 5:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> Pure libertarian free-market thought holds that there is no value but what

> a truly free market ascribes to a good, service, commodity, property, etc.,

> and that the best and only proper way to value everything in according with

> its " true " value is to have pure free markets. Charity only fits in there

> to the degree that it serves a concrete and at least semi-measurable

> purpose, such as contributing to prestige. (And in fact much charitable

> giving, maybe even the bulk of it, is oriented towards prestige and

> sometimes even direct future economic benefit, such as Gates' " gifts " of

> Windows stuff.)

,

Regardless of what " pure libertarians " say, people are emotional beings and

act to satisfy their emotions, such as pity or love, and people also subscribe

to various ideologies that advocate charitable giving. For example, some 40%

or so of the world's population are Christians, and Christianity explicitly

requires charitable giving with deliberate avoidance of prestige.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/03 6:22:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Have to admit l got

> somewhat put off by WAP's use of the word " primitives " but put it aside to

> the time of the writing.

I don't think it was so much that he wrote in a less " enlightened " time, as

he was using the word without modern connotations attached. The folks he

studied *were* " primitive " , in any objective sense of the word-- they resembled

human society as it was in earlier times, and lacked much of the development

that

would properly be termed " modern. " " Primitive " has become a derogatory word

in modern usage, due to an unjustified value judgment associating superiority

with modernity and inferiority with primitivity. It's quite clear, as I'm

sure you'd agree, from the context and his own words that Price had an enormous

amount of respect for the people he studied, probably a bit more than he had

for the " modern " man's way of life.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, I try to stay out of these off-topic political posts because once you're

>swept up by them, you can get trapped in the back and forth for quite a while.

Yeah, I think I'm going to drop this one, I do have work to do!

>However, I couldn't help but notice the incompatibility of these two

>statements. I shudder at the thought of sending my (future) kids off to a

>structured environment (run by a government system) for a few years, away

>from my influence. There IS great power in schooling, and that is why I value

>my freedom to teach my kids my values, not the government's. I certainly

>hope the Swiss have the right to opt out of this program.

Which is where choice should come in! The Swiss and the Japanese have been a lot

more homogenous than we are (that is changing) so I don't think there was too

much controversy. Also Switzerland is the most democratic democracy in

existence, and each city-state rules itself to a large extent. Actually they had

a huge problem during the Reformation, where of course Protestants and Catholics

disagreed even more bloodily than Liberals and Conservatives do in the US. So

they separated the city states, I was told, into " Protestant " and " Catholic "

rather than killing each other. Very logical. Every male serves in the army for

some period of time, but I think they serve with other guys from their Canton,

and then they meet yearly. My teacher said they enjoyed it ... it was sort of a

male-bonding-campout get together where they got to shoot guns, and little risk

of actually fighting a war.

I'd send my kid to a structured school if I could choose the school. I'm not

sure how I feel about having her live at a dorm in a University though ... from

all I've heard it's difficult to study with all the partying going on, which

just isn't right. I did go to school in Switzerland for some time, by choice,

and it was VERY structured and wow did I learn a lot! (It was about watch

repair, which isn't exactly controversial).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Don't know of one Native American boarding school who's purpose was to

>allow any retainment of culture. Being there was not voluntary. Around

>Boston was a group of 6 tribes IIRC called the praying tribes the

>colonialists claimed religious conversion of. That school likely an

>insurance of continuing English culture and religion. None of the tribes

>exist today. One was the Massachusett.

>

>Wanita

That is sad. And here we are today trying to learn more about

tribal food (back to topic, sort of). I think a lot of the folks

responsible were basically " do gooders " -- like the missionaries

who wiped out a lot of the tribal culture in Africa to " civilize "

the folks. We tend to want everyone to be like us ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Chris-

Selflessness vs selfishness isn't a good vs evil axis. It's much more complex.

>It's human nature to do evil unless you're forced to do good?

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

It's because of a lot of things, as near as I can understand. Test bias

may be a small, though inadvertent, part, but culture is also a

problem. " Book learning " (a stupid enough phrase by itself, and one

embraced by segments of all ethnicities) is often disdained as being

" white " , for example.

>For whatever reason, black people don't do as well as

>whites on the standardized teaching tests, which are fairly new, relatively.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>People who take teacher tests are already through

>college, with a BA or close to a BA. Obviously these people didn't disdain

>education as a " white " thing.

That's not necessarily as true as you might think. My aunt is a high

school teacher in the NYC school system, and unfortunately it's become a

snake pit of political infighting, including (maybe especially)

inter-ethnicity jostling. A lot of people involved seem to have agendas

that have little or no relation to actually teaching children.

>I'm not fond of discussing these issue because I don't like the subtle but

>unspoken implication lurking in the background that black people are somehow

>culturally or genetically inferior as quantitatively measured on tests,

>and, as

>much as I may have an opinion, I generally feel unjustified in pontificating

>about what black people need to do to succeed

Same goes for me, but at the same time, I don't think we're ever going to

solve the education problem (of which ethnic-group score discrepancies is

merely one small part) while ignoring some of its components.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

Pure libertarian free-market thought holds that there is no value but what

a truly free market ascribes to a good, service, commodity, property, etc.,

and that the best and only proper way to value everything in according with

its " true " value is to have pure free markets. Charity only fits in there

to the degree that it serves a concrete and at least semi-measurable

purpose, such as contributing to prestige. (And in fact much charitable

giving, maybe even the bulk of it, is oriented towards prestige and

sometimes even direct future economic benefit, such as Gates' " gifts " of

Windows stuff.)

>But there's plenty of indication that people's self-interest often coincide,

>and that people derive satisfaction from doing good things for others.

-

[Guest guest]

>It's human nature to do evil unless you're forced to do good?

>

>Chris

Prefer this

If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe

what

they see.

Henry Thoreau

Wanita

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Idol " <Idol@...>

> It boils down to " if people were just given the opportunity to be more

> selfish, they'd be more generous " , but in fact neither human nature

nor

> history bear out the assertion.

As I mentioned before, charitable climbed sharply after the Reagan tax

cuts. What it boils down to is that if people have more money, they'll

be more generous, which should be obvious.

[Guest guest]

At 01:39 PM 12/7/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>

>>Don't know of one Native American boarding school who's purpose was to

>>allow any retainment of culture. Being there was not voluntary. Around

>>Boston was a group of 6 tribes IIRC called the praying tribes the

>>colonialists claimed religious conversion of. That school likely an

>>insurance of continuing English culture and religion. None of the tribes

>>exist today. One was the Massachusett.

>>

>>Wanita

>

>That is sad. And here we are today trying to learn more about

>tribal food (back to topic, sort of). I think a lot of the folks

>responsible were basically " do gooders " -- like the missionaries

>who wiped out a lot of the tribal culture in Africa to " civilize "

>the folks. We tend to want everyone to be like us ...

>

>-- Heidi

If its any concession there isn't a continent the same hasn't happened on,

except maybe Antarctica. Sometimes l think its all been done because of

something as simple as different and/or less clothing. Have to admit l got

somewhat put off by WAP's use of the word " primitives " but put it aside to

the time of the writing. Recently saw a very good movie Rabbit Proof Fence.

Don't know if its available at your video stores. Its a true story about 3

Australian aboriginal girls put in the government schools there.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

--- In , Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...>

wrote:

I did go to school in Switzerland for some time, by choice, and it was VERY

structured and wow did I learn a lot! (It was about watch repair, which isn't

exactly controversial).

-----Heidi, thanks for the interesting info on Switzerland! So fixing watches

is

one of your many skills? ...you're a woman of many talents! You know, many

a war was waged over whether the second hand should sweep or tick... and

this post contains the word " many " , far too many times!

[Guest guest]

Chris-

While I basically agree with you about Price, the derogatory connotation of

the word " primitive " isn't strictly a post-Price phenomenon. It's been

around for centuries at least, and it's been behind various efforts to

" civilize " " primitives " , such as by giving Australian Aborigines rations of

sugar and other " modern " foods.

> " Primitive " has become a derogatory word

>in modern usage, due to an unjustified value judgment associating superiority

>with modernity and inferiority with primitivity.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

I second the recommendation. RABBIT PROOF FENCE was one of last year's

best films.

>Oooh, thanks. I love those sorts of movies. And Netflix! Just put it in

>my rent queue.

-

[Guest guest]

>-----Heidi, thanks for the interesting info on Switzerland! So fixing watches

is

>one of your many skills? ...you're a woman of many talents! You know, many

>a war was waged over whether the second hand should sweep or tick... and

>this post contains the word " many " , far too many times!

>

>

Heh heh ... yeah, actually if you want to get into the history of

watches it IS very political. There was something of a war on

to get the most accurate chronometer that would work

on a ship, so the navies could know their latitude correctly.

Or maybe it was longitude. Anyway, they didn't have GPS

and they got lost alot. So the governments were bribing

the techies of the day to come up with better chronometers.

So I figure going into computers was a natural course ...

the techies of today are cutting code, not gears!

If you want a really fun history of all technology, read " Quicksilver " .

And " Cryptonomicon " .

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/03 10:06:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> Ghengis

> Khan conquered lots of land, but I don't recall that he required

> a dress code, just tribute.

Actually, I think he just killed everyone in sight.

>

> I think it's a wheat thing ... ;-)

Genghis Khan was pretty brutal, and he was drinking raw horse milk.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Recently saw a very good movie Rabbit Proof Fence.

>Don't know if its available at your video stores. Its a true story about 3

>Australian aboriginal girls put in the government schools there. (Wanita)

Really good movie, I recommend it.

>What is interesting (while we are on the subject of charity) is

>that most of the damage done to " first peoples " has been

>done in the name of " helping " them. -- Heidi

Regarding the Australian aborigines, " helping them " was the front here but the

real and openly stated motive was to stamp out the culture, language and

heritage - so called integration. All aboriginal children of mixed blood were

usually forcibly removed from their families and tribes and put into Catholic

missionary orphanages where they were either physically often sexually abused or

just not touched - ie. no affection/love whatsoever. Most of them were so young

they never knew who they were and consequently we have the " stolen generations " ,

aboriginal people who have no or very little idea of their families, their

tribes or their land. I'm sure it's a common story everywhere in the world with

native peoples.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

At 06:33 AM 12/8/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 12/7/03 10:06:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>heidis@... writes:

>> I think it's a wheat thing ... ;-)

>

>

>Genghis Khan was pretty brutal, and he was drinking raw horse milk.

>

>Chris

Could be lactose too. Both grain and dairy are the newest in human

historical consumption. Both increased populations of peoples using them

therefore more land was needed to grow or graze.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

> It's quite clear, as I'm

>sure you'd agree, from the context and his own words that Price had an

enormous

>amount of respect for the people he studied, probably a bit more than he had

>for the " modern " man's way of life.

>

>Chris

If Price had shown any hint of exploiting l wouldn't be here frankly. He

was respectful, professional, objective and kept any personal values out of

his work.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>>>>Nowadays though only white people teach black kids, and white

kids.

---->as a carte blanche statement, this is absolutely not true. it IS

true that the *majority* of teachers in the US currently are white,

but certainly not all, and not all black children are taught by white

teachers. Of the five schools I taught, interned or tutored at, there

were black teachers teaching black children in 4 out of 5 schools

(there was essentially no black population at the 5th), and in 3 of

the schools, black teachers also taught white children. In one all

black school that i taught at in MD, of the 4 six grade teachers, i

was the only white one. the other 3 were black. in another all black

school where i did part of my internship(maybe there was a white kid

or two, i don't remember), 3 of the 4 teachers were black.

suze

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/03 7:36:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Could be lactose too. Both grain and dairy are the newest in human

> historical consumption. Both increased populations of peoples using them

> therefore more land was needed to grow or graze.

I don't think that's true. Cattle-herding populations have mostly been

rather benign. The main exception is horse-herding population, and the reason

is

not due to food, but due to the benefits horses offer to waging war.

Grain is a whole 'nother story, because it can be stored indefinitely, unlike

dairy, and therefore allows major increases in stratification, and

non-food-producing classes to develop.

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/8/03 9:11:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ---->as a carte blanche statement, this is absolutely not true. it IS

> true that the *majority* of teachers in the US currently are white,

> but certainly not all, and not all black children are taught by white

> teachers. Of the five schools I taught, interned or tutored at, there

> were black teachers teaching black children in 4 out of 5 schools

> (there was essentially no black population at the 5th), and in 3 of

> the schools, black teachers also taught white children. In one all

> black school that i taught at in MD, of the 4 six grade teachers, i

> was the only white one. the other 3 were black. in another all black

> school where i did part of my internship(maybe there was a white kid

> or two, i don't remember), 3 of the 4 teachers were black.

>

Suze,

No disagreement, it was just as personal observation based on limited

experience. Taken literally my statement is clearly false, but there is, in my

state, and disproportionately white teaching population relative to the student

population. There could be a lot of factors-- one would be the inhibitory

effect

of particular teaching certification exams, another would be the racial mix

of local populations.

Chris

[Guest guest]

At 06:34 PM 12/7/2003 -0800, Heidi wrote:

>

>>Recently saw a very good movie Rabbit Proof Fence.

>>Don't know if its available at your video stores. Its a true story about 3

>>Australian aboriginal girls put in the government schools there.

>>

>>Wanita

>

>Oooh, thanks. I love those sorts of movies. And Netflix! Just put it in

>my rent queue.

Another is Where the Spirit Lives. Is about First Nations girl and brother,

IIRC in Canadian boarding school. Canada didn't stop operating them until

the 60's. Might not be widely available here. Saw it on Worldlink tv. More

intense than Rabbit Proof Fence.

Wanita