Re: Toxicity of alcohol in normal tr dose

[Guest guest]

Krishna wrote:

> If you

consider the amount of alcohol in a tsp of tincture to be insignificant

> then use it as is;

Is it or is it not insignificant ? Does anyone know please ?

Any comments anyone please about my queries:

How toxic to the liver is alcohol in these doses anyway?

1.Does such a small load (as 25 - 45% doseages of 5ml

tid in warm water) create any more of a specific problem to the liver than

say

unconjugated bilirubin, amino acids, drugs or anything else entering the

hepatocyte as part of its daily routine?

2.Would it not only be in alcoholic

liver disease that there is a danger and

3.to what extent is this more of

upsetting the normal balance of pychological self-control and what extent is

it in fact a direct hepatotoxic effect?

Chenery

www.rutlandorganics.co.uk

[Guest guest]

I agree with you that in many cases infusions and decoctions seem to

produce better results than tinctures. I use decoctions not tinctures to

treat a number of acute conditions; for example in the treatment of acute

skin diseases such as atopic eczema and psoriasis. I have very little

problem with patient compliance because I tell them that the taste is

terrible and this usually provokes the response on the second visit " it

wasn't as bad as you said " . The physiomedicalists eg Thurston preferred

decoctions and infusions but somehow this aspect of practice was very

understated when I was doing my training. I think that diuretic and

diaphoretic remedies can work better in this form too. And yes, I have long

argued that we should be teaching this.

Re: Toxicity of alcohol in normal tr dose

From Hedley,

We have to go on clinical experience here, as in all other matters it is

more important than theory.

Some people are particularly sensitive to alcohol.

People with severe liver disease should not be encouraged to drink alcohol

and I have found that giving tinctures can allow people to fool themselves

in this regard. In this case decoctions are a better bet, for psychological

if not physical reasons.

With due respect to 's chosen occupation; tinctures are a suitable

method of administration for chronic disease in general but are much more

limited in therapeutic value than herbal infusions and decoctions.

Should we not be teaching this?

Love to all from

List Owner

Graham White, MNIMH

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> We have to go on clinical experience here, as in all other matters it is

> more important than theory.

That must surely be right. However am I alone in wondering if

(1)perhaps some part of

the chronic alcoholics physiology is due to damage resulting in, for

example, increased permeability of the blood/brain barrier (the tipsy

effect) combined with heightened pyschological arousal ?

(2)and whether or not this is so, why ethanol should be any

more threatening to the damaged liver per se, than the alkaloids, other

alcohols

eg phenols, as well as sugars, saponins etc etc which apparently exist in

the plant material of herbal infusions and decoctions? In liver damage,

would not herbs that stimulate the organ be just as dangerous as ethanol, or

are they gentler because many things are, like the alkoloids for example,

only sparingly soluble in water?

(3) Even hepato-protective herbs, such as Carduus, may cause

side-effects in liver disease. Does the form or route of administration

affect these?

Are there any toxicologists out there?

Chenery

www.rutlandorganics.co.uk

Re: Toxicity of alcohol in normal tr dose

> From Hedley,

>

> We have to go on clinical experience here, as in all other matters it is

> more important than theory.

> Some people are particularly sensitive to alcohol.

> People with severe liver disease should not be encouraged to drink alcohol

> and I have found that giving tinctures can allow people to fool themselves

> in this regard. In this case decoctions are a better bet, for

psychological

> if not physical reasons.

>

> With due respect to 's chosen occupation; tinctures are a suitable

> method of administration for chronic disease in general but are much more

> limited in therapeutic value than herbal infusions and decoctions.

> Should we not be teaching this?

>

> Love to all from

>

>

>

> List Owner

>

>

>

> Graham White, MNIMH

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Are there any toxicologists out there?>

Dear

I am not a toxicologist, but can recommend a special edition of New

Scientist on " Alcohol the inside story " . It covers a lot of ground.

Some snippets:

There are two " anti-drink " genes, more common in Asian populations but can

be found anywhere, (maybe this is why TCM eschews tinctures?) which cause an

unusually rapid build-up of noxious acetaldehyde from (1)slow ethanol

conversion to acetaldehyde due to slow action of ethanol dehydrogenase,and

(2) slow conversion of acetaldehyde to acetate due to slowacting version of

aldehyde dehydrogenase ALDH2. Aldehyde is a potent vasodilator producing

symptoms that include " alcohol flush reaction " , severe facial swelling,

nausea, dizzyness and headache.

Women,non-Asian, tend to produce less of one or other enzymes. They have an

alcohol-induced rise in testosterone, particularly if on the Pill or

ovulating. What kind of alcoholic drink doesn't seem to matter. Men have a

lowering of testosterone levels.

Cheers!

Morag Chacksfield BSc, MNIMH

moragchacksfield@...

>

_________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Many thanks Morag.

This throws some light onto such a variety of opinion one encounters.

Very best wishes,

Chenery

www.rutlandorganics.co.uk

Re: Toxicity of alcohol in normal tr dose

> >Are there any toxicologists out there?>

>

> Dear

> I am not a toxicologist, but can recommend a special edition of New

> Scientist on " Alcohol the inside story " . It covers a lot of ground.

> Some snippets:

> There are two " anti-drink " genes, more common in Asian populations but can

> be found anywhere, (maybe this is why TCM eschews tinctures?) which cause

an

> unusually rapid build-up of noxious acetaldehyde from (1)slow ethanol

> conversion to acetaldehyde due to slow action of ethanol dehydrogenase,and

> (2) slow conversion of acetaldehyde to acetate due to slowacting version

of

> aldehyde dehydrogenase ALDH2. Aldehyde is a potent vasodilator producing

> symptoms that include " alcohol flush reaction " , severe facial swelling,

> nausea, dizzyness and headache.

>

> Women,non-Asian, tend to produce less of one or other enzymes. They have

an

> alcohol-induced rise in testosterone, particularly if on the Pill or

> ovulating. What kind of alcoholic drink doesn't seem to matter. Men have a

> lowering of testosterone levels.

>

> Cheers!

> Morag Chacksfield BSc, MNIMH

> moragchacksfield@...

>

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>

>

> List Owner

>

>

>

> Graham White, MNIMH

>

>