Re: emulsifier

[Guest guest]

Bill,

You must also heat the product to properly add oils after the product has

been made. You cannot depend on an emulsifier alone to do the job. I will

need more info about what you are wanting to do before I can help you.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

emulsifier

Please advise as to the most effective and skin friendly emulsifier

to used when adding additional oils to liquid soap. Thank You.

Bill

[Guest guest]

> Bill,

>

> need more info about what you are wanting to do before I can help

you.

,

I have a liquid soap that is homemade using KOH. I would like to use

herbal infusions to add for proper dilution and add fixed oils as

well as essential oils to make a liquid facial soap. Of course, I

will need preservatives also. I suppose I could take my undiluted

soap paste and add herbal infusions and preservative, then heat soap

and add fixed oils with possibly an emulsifier and after cools a

little add the essential oils. What do you think? Can you advise on

best emulsifier if I need one and the best preservative in this

scenario? Obviously, I am not concerned with liquid soap clarity.

Thank you.

Bill

[Guest guest]

Bill,

The soap itself will act as your emulsifier in this scenario that you have

described. Again, it is essential that you heat the liquid soap to at least

60°C when you incorporate the fixed oils.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

Re: emulsifier

> Bill,

>

> need more info about what you are wanting to do before I can help

you.

,

I have a liquid soap that is homemade using KOH. I would like to use

herbal infusions to add for proper dilution and add fixed oils as

well as essential oils to make a liquid facial soap. Of course, I

will need preservatives also. I suppose I could take my undiluted

soap paste and add herbal infusions and preservative, then heat soap

and add fixed oils with possibly an emulsifier and after cools a

little add the essential oils. What do you think? Can you advise on

best emulsifier if I need one and the best preservative in this

scenario? Obviously, I am not concerned with liquid soap clarity.

Thank you.

Bill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/00 6:58:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,

mhevey@... writes:

<< What was the ratio of Polysorbate 20 to fragrance oil?

Did you pre-mix the Polysorbate 20 with the fragrance before you

added it to your formula? >>

If you premix the P20 with the FO beforehand are you like to not get

cloudiness?

Is that what you are hinting at here Maurice? At at 1/1 ratio mine is

milky white,

but I don't care since I use blue bottles. <G> Stretches it really well

in my case.

Dee ·´¯`·.. ><((((º>``·.¸:.¸:.¸.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸:.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

·´¯`·:

·´¯`·.. ><((((º>``·.¸:.¸:.¸.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸:.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>·´¯`·:

·´¯`·.. ><((((º>``·.¸

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/00 8:38:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,

pennys@... writes:

>

> Hello everyone. I don't post much. I am looking for an emulsifier for

> linen sprays. Can someone suggest one that will emulsifier the oil and the

> water, as I will be using clear spray bottles.

>

> Thank you,

> Penny

>

>

I thought Kibby had something like this is this a solubilizer not an

emulsifier?

Jackie

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:33:06 -0500, Pennys From Heaven

wrote:

>Hello everyone. I don't post much. I am looking for an emulsifier for

>linen sprays. Can someone suggest one that will emulsifier the oil and the

>water, as I will be using clear spray bottles.

I always reach for Polysorbate 20 when I want to solubilize

a fragrance oil or essential oil. I'd start with a 50:50

(oil:Polysorbate 20). Polysorbate 20 is not a universal

solubilizer but it works many times.

'Arlasolve 200 L (INCI name: Isoceteth-20) is another

excellent solubilizer that I use when formulating.

Maurice

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/00 2:42:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

@... writes:

> an MSDS and the good ones will also provide you with a C of A and product

> specifications.

>

I have wondered about this one.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Hi~

I joined the group a few weeks ago and have been lurking, but today I have a

question regarding this polysorbate 20 that you mention to emulsify

oil/water.

I recently purchased some p-20 to make sprays, but have to admit that to

date have only tested one fragrance oil. I was dissappointed as the liquid

is cloudy. The oil is certainly emlusified, but I am not happy about the

cloudiness (looks like someone added a tsp of milk to the water). Is this

normal?

Kathy K.

www.angelfire.com/extreme/skoriginals

[Guest guest]

>Hi~

>I joined the group a few weeks ago and have been lurking, but today I have a

>question regarding this polysorbate 20 that you mention to emulsify

>oil/water.

>

>I recently purchased some p-20 to make sprays, but have to admit that to

>date have only tested one fragrance oil. I was dissappointed as the liquid

>is cloudy. The oil is certainly emlusified, but I am not happy about the

>cloudiness (looks like someone added a tsp of milk to the water). Is this

>normal?

>

>Kathy K.

>www.angelfire.com/extreme/skoriginals

As I said in an earlier post, Polysorbate 20 is not a universal

solubilizer.

What was the ratio of Polysorbate 20 to fragrance oil?

Did you pre-mix the Polysorbate 20 with the fragrance before you

added it to your formula?

Maurice

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/00 3:04:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

@... writes:

> know what the product contains; but if you purchase an ingredient to add to

> your product to facilitate the addition of a fragrance to your product then

> you must list your ingredients. The FDA does not have an exception here

just

> because it is used to incorporate a fragrance. Kibby is full of BS and

>

All the gal is trying to do here is make a linen spray for sale.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/00 12:57:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

angel_noir@... writes:

<< Do what you have to do, but I would be very reluctant to purchase any

chemicals from online vendors that misrepresent their products.

Caveat emptor! >>

I agree. I need to trust my vendors so I can be assured of quality products.

Dee ·´¯`·.. ><((((º>``·.¸:.¸:.¸.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸:.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

·´¯`·:

·´¯`·.. ><((((º>``·.¸:.¸:.¸.·´¯`·.><((((º> .¸:.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>·´¯`·:

·´¯`·.. ><((((º>``·.¸

[Guest guest]

I think less finger pointing and teaching might be the way to go here.

How might you all recommend that a linen spray be made both economically and

with foresight into the kinds of products available to the home toiletries

maker. Keep in mind most of these gals might want to be as " natural " as

possible? Why would it be so necessary to use so much chemicals in this

simple linen spray?

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

The milky appearance is indicative of not enough of the polysorbate-20 in

your product. Add slightly more and also heat your product slightly, to

about 40-45°C. You should see it clarify immediately.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

RE: emulsifier

Hi~

I joined the group a few weeks ago and have been lurking, but today I have a

question regarding this polysorbate 20 that you mention to emulsify

oil/water.

I recently purchased some p-20 to make sprays, but have to admit that to

date have only tested one fragrance oil. I was dissappointed as the liquid

is cloudy. The oil is certainly emlusified, but I am not happy about the

cloudiness (looks like someone added a tsp of milk to the water). Is this

normal?

Kathy K.

www.angelfire.com/extreme/skoriginals

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[Guest guest]

>is cloudy. The oil is certainly emlusified, but I am not happy about >the

>cloudiness (looks like someone added a tsp of milk to the >water). Is

>this normal?

Yes, it's perfectly normal. Clarity of the emulsified/solubilzed spray

depends totally on the fragrance and they're all different. Most of the

fragrances we're using are primarily formulated to work in cp soap and

other cosmetic products like lotion, they aren't made with the end use of a

clear spray in mind. So you may find some that will be opaque no matter the

ratio of polysorbate 20 to fragrance, others that will be clear and some

will even start out clear with an opaque layer settling out later upon

sitting (a simple shake before use and this is fine).

If a clear spray is of the utmost importance to you then you will be

limited to those fragrances that make a clear spray. Otherwise you can look

at it as an additional way to distinguish between different sprays by

appearance. For example you may have two scents that you want to colour the

sprays yellow as that is appropriate colour to match the scents..but if one

is opaque and one clear you can have two yellow coloured sprays that look

different.

Warmly,

Sherri

http://oshun.ca mailto:sherri@...

Oshun - Your wholesale source for quality soap & cosmetic

ingredients, packaging, bulk toiletries and handcrafted soap.

[Guest guest]

No offense to Kibby but I have heard that she is less than forthright about

the materials that she sells. One oft he purposes of this list is to provide

clear factual information that is often not available from the so called web

suppliers. That is not to say that all of the web suppliers do not have full

disclosure but some have been chastised on this list and another list that I

write to about their practices. Your chemical suppliers must supply you with

an MSDS and the good ones will also provide you with a C of A and product

specifications.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

Re: emulsifier

In a message dated 11/27/00 8:38:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,

pennys@... writes:

>

> Hello everyone. I don't post much. I am looking for an emulsifier for

> linen sprays. Can someone suggest one that will emulsifier the oil and

the

> water, as I will be using clear spray bottles.

>

> Thank you,

> Penny

>

>

I thought Kibby had something like this is this a solubilizer not an

emulsifier?

Jackie

Addresses:

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[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/27/00 8:38:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> pennys@a... writes:

>

> >

> > Hello everyone. I don't post much. I am looking for an

emulsifier for

> > linen sprays. Can someone suggest one that will emulsifier the

oil and the

> > water, as I will be using clear spray bottles.

> >

> > Thank you,

> > Penny

> >

> >

> I thought Kibby had something like this is this a solubilizer

not an

> emulsifier?

>

> Jackie

That's right. I almost forgot. Kibby sells a " fragrance base " .

Formerly, she caled this a " solubilizer " .

When she sold this ingredient as a " solubilizer " , Kibby said:

" When using solubilizer in your formulations, you will not need to

list it separately in your ingredients as it falls into

the " fragrance " category. It is a proprietary blend and so the

ingredients are not disclosed by the manufacturer. "

Now that it's a " fragrance base " , Kibby says:

" The identity of the individual components of this mixture is

proprietary information and is regarded to be a trade secret.

Therefore FNWL does not have the ingredients list. It is composed of

chemicals commonly found in fragrance oils and as such, when using

solubilizer in your formulations, it is considered to be one with the

fragrance oils that you use and is covered by the inclusion

of " Fragrance " in your ingredient list. "

Neither of these statements are true.

Why does Kibby have to do this? Probably for the same reason that

Snowdrift Farms misrepresents his raw materials.

Do what you have to do, but I would be very reluctant to purchase any

chemicals from online vendors that misrepresent their products.

Caveat emptor!

Lucy

[Guest guest]

Sherri,

I am sorry to disagree with you here but I do not know of any fragrance

material that cannot be solubilized with the correct solubilizer.

Polysorbate-20 may not solubilize all of the fragrance materials but one can

most definitely make clear solutions.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

RE: emulsifier

>is cloudy. The oil is certainly emlusified, but I am not happy about >the

>cloudiness (looks like someone added a tsp of milk to the >water). Is

>this normal?

Yes, it's perfectly normal. Clarity of the emulsified/solubilzed spray

depends totally on the fragrance and they're all different. Most of the

fragrances we're using are primarily formulated to work in cp soap and

other cosmetic products like lotion, they aren't made with the end use of a

clear spray in mind. So you may find some that will be opaque no matter the

ratio of polysorbate 20 to fragrance, others that will be clear and some

will even start out clear with an opaque layer settling out later upon

sitting (a simple shake before use and this is fine).

If a clear spray is of the utmost importance to you then you will be

limited to those fragrances that make a clear spray. Otherwise you can look

at it as an additional way to distinguish between different sprays by

appearance. For example you may have two scents that you want to colour the

sprays yellow as that is appropriate colour to match the scents..but if one

is opaque and one clear you can have two yellow coloured sprays that look

different.

Warmly,

Sherri

http://oshun.ca mailto:sherri@...

Oshun - Your wholesale source for quality soap & cosmetic

ingredients, packaging, bulk toiletries and handcrafted soap.

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[Guest guest]

Thank you Lucy. This confirms what I have stated in my post on this same

topic. If you purchase a fragrance from a fragrance vendor then you do not

know what the product contains; but if you purchase an ingredient to add to

your product to facilitate the addition of a fragrance to your product then

you must list your ingredients. The FDA does not have an exception here just

because it is used to incorporate a fragrance. Kibby is full of BS and

anyone that is in contact with her may feel free to let her know my

statement here. Full disclosure is the law. If she sells a fragrance to you

then she can hide the fragrance composition but she is not selling

fragrances. FWIW, if you want a fragrance then go to a fragrance house to

purchase a fragrance. If you want lies, deceptions and BS see vendors like

Kibby and From Nature with Love. If you want honest information about how to

comply with the FDA regulations then post your questions here. No punches

are pulled by either Maurice or me and those of you on the Cosmeticetc list

also know that neither Ken Klein nor Dave Steinberg will pull their punches

is trying to dispel the myths and falsehoods that abound on the web

regarding personal care products.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

Re: emulsifier

> In a message dated 11/27/00 8:38:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> pennys@a... writes:

>

> >

> > Hello everyone. I don't post much. I am looking for an

emulsifier for

> > linen sprays. Can someone suggest one that will emulsifier the

oil and the

> > water, as I will be using clear spray bottles.

> >

> > Thank you,

> > Penny

> >

> >

> I thought Kibby had something like this is this a solubilizer

not an

> emulsifier?

>

> Jackie

That's right. I almost forgot. Kibby sells a " fragrance base " .

Formerly, she caled this a " solubilizer " .

When she sold this ingredient as a " solubilizer " , Kibby said:

" When using solubilizer in your formulations, you will not need to

list it separately in your ingredients as it falls into

the " fragrance " category. It is a proprietary blend and so the

ingredients are not disclosed by the manufacturer. "

Now that it's a " fragrance base " , Kibby says:

" The identity of the individual components of this mixture is

proprietary information and is regarded to be a trade secret.

Therefore FNWL does not have the ingredients list. It is composed of

chemicals commonly found in fragrance oils and as such, when using

solubilizer in your formulations, it is considered to be one with the

fragrance oils that you use and is covered by the inclusion

of " Fragrance " in your ingredient list. "

Neither of these statements are true.

Why does Kibby have to do this? Probably for the same reason that

Snowdrift Farms misrepresents his raw materials.

Do what you have to do, but I would be very reluctant to purchase any

chemicals from online vendors that misrepresent their products.

Caveat emptor!

Lucy

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[Guest guest]

HI, Jackie.

Thanks for that last post! I am sitting here (as I take a break from

painting the bathroom, so my thinking may be slightly warped from the

fumes'!) wondering if my favorite suppliers are on the hit list, too...

I just don't order that much (compared to a " commercial " business) and have

never demanded personal attention. (Perhaps I should change a few things

about my own ordering procedures.) But, regardless, I have already spend

hundreds upon hundreds gathering together a nice stash of " stuff " ....but in

the meantime, from the peanut corner:

Yes, please tell us, simply, is polysorbate 20 best suited for linen/body

sprays or is there a better product?

Kathy K.

PS Have we talked about propylene glycol, yet? I'm trying to get educated

about that one, too...

[Guest guest]

> I always reach for Polysorbate 20 when I want to solubilize

> a fragrance oil or essential oil. I'd start with a 50:50

> (oil:Polysorbate 20). Polysorbate 20 is not a universal

> solubilizer but it works many times.

>

> Arlasolve 200 L (INCI name: Isoceteth-20) is another

> excellent solubilizer that I use when formulating.

>

> Maurice

Lucy

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

There is no best to be named without the necessary experimentation to

determine which emulsifier works at the lowest concentration. There are

three excellent solubilizers that come to mind. Polysorbate-20 is one,

PEG-40 Castor Oil and Isoceteth-20 are the other two. Which is best is

dependent on the material that you are trying to solubilize. There is no

crystal ball that I or any other chemist can look into to say without

testing each.

Regarding PG, what would you like to know?

Regarding your favorite suppliers, I am not trying to crucify any or all of

you favorite suppliers; I am just pointing out what they all should be doing

and if they are not then you should look elsewhere. There are many reputable

suppliers that sell in small quantities to small businesses. While I have

started selling materials on this list and others I am not the only supplier

and often recommend other vendors to people that ask. There are many things

that I would like to carry but until I turn or significantly reduce my

existing inventory I cannot add these items to my offerings.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

RE: Re: emulsifier

HI, Jackie.

Thanks for that last post! I am sitting here (as I take a break from

painting the bathroom, so my thinking may be slightly warped from the

fumes'!) wondering if my favorite suppliers are on the hit list, too...

I just don't order that much (compared to a " commercial " business) and have

never demanded personal attention. (Perhaps I should change a few things

about my own ordering procedures.) But, regardless, I have already spend

hundreds upon hundreds gathering together a nice stash of " stuff " ....but in

the meantime, from the peanut corner:

Yes, please tell us, simply, is polysorbate 20 best suited for linen/body

sprays or is there a better product?

Kathy K.

PS Have we talked about propylene glycol, yet? I'm trying to get educated

about that one, too...

Addresses:

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[Guest guest]

Jackie,

I know what Penny is trying to do and I am trying to help her out. What I am

railing about is the dishonesty of certain vendors regarding the materials

that they are selling to small customers and home crafters. Just because the

vendor is small or the customer is small is no excuse not to follow the

regulations. The Right to Know regulations are for all, not just the large

commercial houses.

Young

KY Labs

Innovators of Fine Personal Care Products

www.kylabs.com

Re: Re: emulsifier

In a message dated 11/27/00 3:04:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

@... writes:

> know what the product contains; but if you purchase an ingredient to add

to

> your product to facilitate the addition of a fragrance to your product

then

> you must list your ingredients. The FDA does not have an exception here

just

> because it is used to incorporate a fragrance. Kibby is full of BS and

>

All the gal is trying to do here is make a linen spray for sale.

Jackie

Addresses:

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[Guest guest]

>

>HI, Jackie.

>Thanks for that last post! I am sitting here (as I take a break from

>painting the bathroom, so my thinking may be slightly warped from the

>fumes'!) wondering if my favorite suppliers are on the hit list, too...

Isn't it better to find out now? Or would you prefer not

find out that your favorite is feeding you misinformation

so as to rip you off? Whenever I purchase anything, I try

to be an informed consumer. IMO, there are too many people

eager to take advantage you and your wallet. Why else

would people misrepresent the product that they sell?

>I just don't order that much (compared to a " commercial " business) and have

>never demanded personal attention. (Perhaps I should change a few things

>about my own ordering procedures.) But, regardless, I have already spend

>hundreds upon hundreds gathering together a nice stash of " stuff " ....but in

>the meantime, from the peanut corner:

>

>Yes, please tell us, simply, is polysorbate 20 best suited for linen/body

>sprays or is there a better product?

As I pointed earlier,

>I always reach for Polysorbate 20 when I want to solubilize

>a fragrance oil or essential oil. I'd start with a 50:50

>(oil:Polysorbate 20). Polysorbate 20 is not a universal

>solubilizer but it works many times.

>

>'Arlasolve 200 L (INCI name: Isoceteth-20) is another

>excellent solubilizer that I use when formulating.

Yes there are others, but for availability, ease of use and

cost, Polysorbate 20 is my first choice. So much depends

on the fragrance oil or essential oil you are trying to

solubilize. If Polysorbate 20 doesn't work, try something

else. That's why they're called experiments.

Unfortunately, not all experiements come out the way you

want. But with every failure, you learn something that

can't be taken away from you. It's called knowledge.

If everything was " cut and dry " , there would be no reason

for experiments. And no need for cosmetic chemist. Perish

the thought. ;-(

Maurice

[Guest guest]

With all the talk about emulsifiers, my interest is piqued. It seems from what

has

been posted, FNWL is out of the question as a supplier for this, so can I get

recommendations of where to buy an emulsifer for body or linen sprays?

Thanks much!

Bonnie