Re: My heart answers (Hans)

[Guest guest]

> It isn't new, it isn't original, it is just true and very powerful

Hans thanks for the lovely quotes

I think we have a different understanding of what is new and original.

What you have described in all your quotes is the general knowledge

of humanity, as you say nothing new or original.

However, s statement that the CAUSE of alcoholism is a patients

attempt to shut down their painful thoughts about their mother,

father etc. is very unique and original. No one that I am aware of

has made that direct connection. You have not provided any evidence

of even one piece of research or one study prior to 1986 which has

reached a similar conclusion. Now that makes s insight new and

original in my books

Her insights are even more remarkable when you consider that

came from a little desert town in America and had a very limited

formal education.

Hans I am really not interested in fuzzy quotes from people, what I

am looking for is hard evidence from repected journals (prior to

1986) like the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, that show s work

on alcoholism is not new and unique. When you have that we can

continue this discussion

Have a beautiful day

" Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving

safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in

broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly

proclaiming... " WOW! What a ride! " " Unknown

" Sanity doesn't suffer, ever . . . ever! Sanity doesn't suffer,

ever, ever! Isn't that lovely? " Byron

[Guest guest]

" All problems are ultimately problems of understanding ( will you

allow ? , defined as , in this context we are in hereunder , power

of abstract thought ) . and due regulation " Grow Inc . 1957 .

" due regulation " = Judge-your-neighbor process w turnarounds .

>

>

>

>

>

>> It isn't new, it isn't original, it is just true and very powerful

>

>

> Hans thanks for the lovely quotes

>

> I think we have a different understanding of what is new and original.

>

> What you have described in all your quotes is the general knowledge

> of humanity, as you say nothing new or original.

>

> However, s statement that the CAUSE of alcoholism is a patients

> attempt to shut down their painful thoughts about their mother,

> father etc. is very unique and original. No one that I am aware of

> has made that direct connection. You have not provided any evidence

> of even one piece of research or one study prior to 1986 which has

> reached a similar conclusion. Now that makes s insight new and

> original in my books

>

> Her insights are even more remarkable when you consider that

> came from a little desert town in America and had a very limited

> formal education.

>

> Hans I am really not interested in fuzzy quotes from people, what I

> am looking for is hard evidence from repected journals (prior to

> 1986) like the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, that show s work

> on alcoholism is not new and unique. When you have that we can

> continue this discussion

>

> Have a beautiful day

>

>

> " Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving

> safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in

> broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly

> proclaiming... " WOW! What a ride! " " Unknown

>

> " Sanity doesn't suffer, ever . . . ever! Sanity doesn't suffer,

> ever, ever! Isn't that lovely? " Byron

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

>I think we have a different understanding of what is new and

original.

Yes we most likely do, new and original for you is something you've

never thought of or heard of.

> What you have described in all your quotes is the general

knowledge of humanity, as you say nothing new or original.

There is nothing new or original, it is all recycled, as Byron

says as well.

> However, s statement that the CAUSE of alcoholism is a

patients

> attempt to shut down their painful thoughts about their mother,

> father etc. is very unique and original.

Again you must be joking, lol! There has for eons been an

understanding that thoughts and the escape from ones hurt are the

cause of many forms of addiction. I posted several quotes, books and

an email for a Pr. in psychology so that you might gain this that is

so commonly known by so many, with or without the book " Loving What

is " .

And furthermore, if God spoke, don't you think that the wisdom

through the ages would be highly similar essentially, that means in

ESSENCE.

Look again through the quotes and you will see, perhaps this time

not so " fuzzy " , how the essence of what speaks of and shares

is old wisdom. I also remember an old western though not the name of

it, where it talk of " drowning your sorrows " with alcohol. Also old

blues songs speaks of it as drowning your sorrows.

Have you not read or understood the field of escapism???

> Her insights are even more remarkable when you consider that

> came from a little desert town in America and had a very limited

> formal education.

Yes, because education would mean she would have been exposed to

perhaps a lot of past philosophy that spoke of things she speaks of.

But she didn't and yes that is remarkable.

However what happend to is explained by a principle within Zen-

buddhism, where it says that you can through the course of

circumstances in life suddenly, in a heartbeat, recieve total

awareness.

> Hans I am really not interested in fuzzy quotes from people, what

I am looking for is hard evidence from repected journals (prior to

> 1986) like the Journal of Abnormal Psychology, that show s

work on alcoholism is not new and unique. When you have that we can

continue this discussion

Well then you can't see the forest because of all the trees.

And furthermore you set a condition for a continued discussion of

what constitutes as evidence.

I see this as over reaching.

Read Arthur Schopenhauer or Dr. Tom Kerns on his thesis in the

seventies.

" Whenever I wanted a cigarette, I gave myself a cigarette. It was

that simple. That is, whenever the will wanted something, I gave it

what it wanted. I did that over and over for several years, and the

effect of it was to maximally increase the intensity of my wanting.

So when I wanted a cigarette I wanted it very intensely, craved it,

needed it. If I ever went without one for more than a couple of

hours, I really felt it. I longed for, craved, needed a cigarette.

The intensity of the willing was very high, and every time I gave

the will what it wanted it had the ultimate effect of actually

increasing the need for - i.e., increasing the intensity of the will

for - more cigarettes. "

Basic buddhism as well as common within 's way of reasoning.

Since the dawn of time man has been trying to manipulate how he

feels.

That alcohol has been seen as an escape from a persons thouths

on " reality " and routine are covered by much of what I wrote you in

the past letter.

In 1981 Pr. Ruth C Engs wrote in an essay of alcohol that should be

brought to greater attention are the:

" Problem-solving skills, to cope with life by means other than

alcohol and drugs. "

" Prevent 2. Escape into alcohol or other drugs "

Now this speaks and constitutes that a person strives to cope with

his problems because of the lack of being able to handle them, so

there is an escape into alcohol.

Now the very obvious philosophy that people escape into something

because of problems within themselves is very old. Yet diverse as

many a gifted men and women have spoken of this observation often in

history.

" Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life. "

- Bernad Shaw

Here with his charming sarcasm speaks of alcohol as it is used to

numb the thoughts.

" Alcohol is the cause and the solution to many of life's problems. "

- Dan Castellaneta, old american actor and writer brings up the

obvious and common sarcastic tale of why people drink, to solve

their problems by not feeling them anymore.

" Alcohol is necessary for a man so that he can have a good opinion

of himself, undisturbed be the facts. "

- Finley Dunne, old american journalist and humorist.

Also speaks of the facts as reality and alcohol as the escape from

it.

" Man seeks to escape himself in myth, and does so by any means at

his disposal. Drugs, alcohol, or lies. Unable to withdraw into

himself, he disguises himself. Lies and inaccuracy give him a few

moments of comfort. "

- Cocteau, historical poet, writer, actor, painter.

Here clearly letting history know once again about the desire for

man to escape from his inner problems.

So you see, the essence of what we speak of, that thoughts are a

cause of escapism which can be escape into alcohol, religion,

eating, drugs or what have you, is as old as thought itself.

That is why I didn't react like that to 's wisdom as she said

that thoughts are the problem. It was already common sense to me.

Though it is a simple and efficient package around the sense I

believe.

[Guest guest]

Here's my reference: " Destructive Emotions " by Goldman.

It's an account of preceedings of several meetings with the Dali Lama

and leading Western Scientists. It was a facinating read!

Marsha

>

> > Well... need a pause... of course you can't be serious with what

> > you wrote?

> > That you've never heard or read in any literature that people

might

> > drink to shut down their painful thinking? That the problem was

in

> > the mind, thus stressful thought?

> > Ltwobk? Of course you're joking? Or I must have totally

> > missunderstood what you ment per se or underestimated your

> > knowledge of the history of psychological obviousness?

> >

>

> Hi Hans,

>

> I would very much love for you to prove me wrong

>

> Please cite the research that you have read in the appropriate

> journals that prove your point. I want a study that concludes that

> the ONLY cause for alcoholism is a patients stressful thinking

about

> their mother, father etc.

>

> As I understand it s realizations were before the popular

flood

> of psychological self-help books which have discussed the role of

> thought so please don't waste your time referencing any of that

> stuff. You are right that the role of thought has been hinted at in

> ancient Greek and Buddhist text, but please show me anywhere in the

> ancient literature a statement that thought and complusive drinking

> were linked.

>

> In recent psychology the role of thought has been explored in RET,

> yet even in that literature I have not come across a doctor or

> therapist who made a link between a persons stressful stories about

> their mother, father etc. and alcoholism. Yet who knows I could be

> wrong, if so then please cite the relevant research and the

> appropriate journal or text where it can be located.

>

> You talk big Hans, lets see you back up your grand claims with some

> proof

>

> Have a beautiful day

>

>

> " Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving

> safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in

> broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly

> proclaiming... " WOW! What a ride! " " Unknown

>

> " Sanity doesn't suffer, ever . . . ever! Sanity doesn't suffer,

> ever, ever! Isn't that lovely? " Byron

[Guest guest]

Here are some articles...

Waern M, Spak F, Sundh V.

Related Articles, Links

Suicidal ideation in a female population sample. Relationship with

depression, anxiety disorder and alcohol dependence/abuse.

Eur Arch Psychiatry Clin Neurosci. 2002 Apr;252(2):81-5.

PMID: 12111341 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Kaskutas LA.

Related Articles, Links

Pathways to self-help among women for sobriety.

Am J Drug Alcohol Abuse. 1996 May;22(2):259-80.

PMID: 8727059 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Anton RF, Moak DH, Latham P.

Related Articles, Links

The Obsessive Compulsive Drinking Scale: a self-rated instrument for

the quantification of thoughts about alcohol and drinking behavior.

Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 1995 Feb;19(1):92-9.

PMID: 7771669 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Modell JG, Glaser FB, Cyr L, Mountz JM.

Related Articles, Links

Obsessive and compulsive characteristics of craving for alcohol in

alcohol abuse and dependence.

Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 1992 Apr;16(2):272-4.

PMID: 1590549 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Hjort PF.

Related Articles, Links

[The disease and death of Olaf Bull. Thoughts about alcohol, disease

and creativity]

Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen. 1989 Dec 10;109(34-36):3557-61. Norwegian. No

abstract available.

PMID: 2694427 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

LS.

Related Articles, Links

Suicidal thoughts and their relationship to family stress and

personal problems among high school seniors and college

undergraduates.

Adolescence. 1985 Fall;20(79):575-80.

Now, to answer your question " I want a study that concludes that

> the ONLY cause for alcoholism is a patients stressful thinking

about their mother, father etc. "

You will not find anything that definitively concludes that one thing

causes another. We can never conclude causality, we can only detect

association of variables. There is too much confounding that takes

place in a longitudinal study of the nature that you are proposing.

....at least, that's my story.

Enjoy the articles!

Marsha

PMID: 4083120 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

> > Well... need a pause... of course you can't be serious with what

> > you wrote?

> > That you've never heard or read in any literature that people

might

> > drink to shut down their painful thinking? That the problem was

in

> > the mind, thus stressful thought?

> > Ltwobk? Of course you're joking? Or I must have totally

> > missunderstood what you ment per se or underestimated your

> > knowledge of the history of psychological obviousness?

> >

>

> Hi Hans,

>

> I would very much love for you to prove me wrong

>

> Please cite the research that you have read in the appropriate

> journals that prove your point. I want a study that concludes that

> the ONLY cause for alcoholism is a patients stressful thinking

about

> their mother, father etc.

>

> As I understand it s realizations were before the popular

flood

> of psychological self-help books which have discussed the role of

> thought so please don't waste your time referencing any of that

> stuff. You are right that the role of thought has been hinted at in

> ancient Greek and Buddhist text, but please show me anywhere in the

> ancient literature a statement that thought and complusive drinking

> were linked.

>

> In recent psychology the role of thought has been explored in RET,

> yet even in that literature I have not come across a doctor or

> therapist who made a link between a persons stressful stories about

> their mother, father etc. and alcoholism. Yet who knows I could be

> wrong, if so then please cite the relevant research and the

> appropriate journal or text where it can be located.

>

> You talk big Hans, lets see you back up your grand claims with some

> proof

>

> Have a beautiful day

>

>

> " Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving

> safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in

> broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly

> proclaiming... " WOW! What a ride! " " Unknown

>

> " Sanity doesn't suffer, ever . . . ever! Sanity doesn't suffer,

> ever, ever! Isn't that lovely? " Byron