Guest guest Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 In a message dated 3/13/03 6:26:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, cbaird@... writes: > > I use ewax NF as the emulsifier in my lotions. I recently for the first > time bought some poly 20 from Angie in the " great creamy scrub " journey! > Which by the way was successful and I love the result. Anyway, I notice > that when I use them after they have " sat " in the bottle for a while, maybe > a few months, that as I am rubbing them in I get that " wet " type feeling on > my skin, I'm sure someone knows what I mean? It goes from a lotiony, nice > slip feel to feeling almost like water on the skin. THere is no outward > appearance change in the product, no seeping or seperation. I have wondered > if this is due to some change over time in the use of the ewax? I use > stearic acid to thicken them. I make a very thick body butter and have > never noticed this change in it, only the lotions. Does anyone have a clue > what causes this? > > Hi , I'm glad you liked the scrub! But about the emulsifying wax NF...how much are you using in your lotion formula? What are the other ingredients? Can you list them in percentages and then it will be easier to problem-solve. Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 OK. sorry for the delay Angie, just got a minute! Here is a typical formula that is doing this: Stearic acid 3% Ewax 4% Glycerin 3% Almond 10% Jojoba 9% Water 70% Plus fragrance and preservative. Any ideas/suggestions? Baird Paradise Valley Natural Skincare www.soapessentials.com ? What are the other ingredients? Can > you list them in percentages and then it will be easier to problem-solve. > Angie > The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care > Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality > at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 In a message dated 3/13/03 4:21:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, cbaird@... writes: > > OK. sorry for the delay Angie, just got a minute! Here is a typical > formula that is doing this: > > Stearic acid 3% > Ewax 4% > Glycerin 3% > Almond 10% > Jojoba 9% > Water 70% > > Plus fragrance and preservative. Any ideas/suggestions? > Baird > Paradise Valley Natural Skincare > www.soapessentials.com Hi , You had mentioned that after a few months your lotion has a " wet feel " when you apply it. I'm kind of surprised it isn't an 'oily feel', but a 'wet feel'. I'm not really sure about that? These are my thoughts though...it sounds a little like it could be a stability problem. If you want to stick with your same basic formula, then you could add some glyceryl stearate...maybe 1.3-1.4%. I think that should help with the stability. Once you have done that and if you like the appearance and the way it feels, you may want to do a freeze/thaw stability test to see if you notice any changes in the lotion that you had previously noticed. The other thing you may want to consider-- since this is a lotion, would be to decrease your oils and increase your water phase. If it were me, I would probably reduce the sweet almond and add something to the water phase for moisture retention...like a protein perhaps. Maybe other folks have other suggestions?? Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 In a message dated 3/14/03 6:02:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, cbaird@... writes: > A slight loss of stability is what I was thinking too Angie, it is weird > that it still looks/feels creamy when pumped out, just feels a little like > it is breaking apart during the application part. So glyc. stearate is > also an emulsifier, like ewax NF, but also acts as a stabalizer? Would I > reduce the ewax percentage and make up the difference with it? And I was > looking at your venasilk product. How do you think this would work within > this formula, if I tried some would I reduce one of the oils? And could > this possibly take the place of the stabilizing effect of the glyc. > stearate, or are these two completely different reactions? > Sorry for all the questions, just trying to expand my brain (ouch)! > Baird > Paradise Valley Natural Skincare > www.soapessentials.com > Hi , These things are hard to figure sometimes! It has been my experience that emulsifying wax NF--I use and sell Polawax from Croda, so this is the one I am referring to--when used at 3% will emulsify oils/butters up to 5-6%. When used at 5%, it will emulsify veggie oils/butters up to 10% or so. The lotions are stable. The only time I have experienced any separation or instability is early-on when I tried using the emulsifying wax NF at 2% with about 10% veggie oils. Emulsifying Wax NF is a self-emulsifier, like the Conditioning Emulsifier and like NatraMulse. I think the ingredients in Emulsifying wax NF are probably one of the polysorbates..maybe 60 (emulsifier) and probably cetearyl alcohol (fatty alcohol), but this is a guess since it is proprietary info. You can look at the other ewax combos and sorta figure it out though. Emulsifying wax is called a " self-emulsifier " because when the " ewax " is combined with water it will " self-emulsify " . With the addition of the water, the emulsifier within the ewax will " bind " the water and the other ingredient in the ewax (cetearyl alcohol) which is a lipid/fat....so it therefore self-emulsifies. Most of us add wonderful veggie oils, butters, etc. to the emulsifying wax to make our lotions and creams richer and more desirable. One thing to mention, I find that in making emulsions there are three important things: 1)emulsifiers 2)heat 3)mixing Heat is a very useful tool for us. In talking with alot of folks that are having stability problems, it seems that very often the phases are combined at pretty low temps...like 140F/60C. A more stable emulsion is formed with temps around 165-175F/70-80C. Heat can also destroy some microbes.....an added advantage Glyceryl Stearate is an emulsifier with an HLB value of 3.6. When it is added to your formula, it works with the polysorbate (high level HLB) (that is in the emulsifying wax NF) to bring the overall HLB VALUE to a better balance with the REQUIRED HLB of the oils/fats.to make a more stable emulsion. To keep your formula about the same, I suggested that you add 1.4% or 1.5% glyceryl stearate to the formula and keep the emulsifying wax NF at 4%. You could subtract the percentage from the water portion or you could subtract the percentage from the oils, which would impact the required HLB just a little, but not that much. I would take it from the sweet almond oil. Another thing to consider---the overall percentage of oils/lipids may be a bit high for a lotion and you may want to rework your formula to reflect a lower percentage of oils/fats. Another way to make emulsions is to choose your own emulsifiers--usually one high HLB and one low HLB. Each oil/butter/lipid/fat/fatty alcohol/fatty acid has a required HLB. Each emulsifier has a particular HLB value. The idea is to make these two numbers balance--therefore the hydrophilic/lipophilic balance (HLB). Some people who use emulsifying wax will add stearic acid to bring the required HLB up to match the value of the emulsifier in the ewax (polysorbate 20 or 80 or 60) to make it a closer balance. I don't know that it is necessarily a good idea. It may be helpful to keep a chart on hand with the REQUIRED HLB of the fatty/lipid materials and another chart with the HLB VALUES of the emulsifiers. Some of the smart folks on this list have spread sheets to calculate for them...which makes alot of sense and makes calculating easier. I like the VenaSilk. It has a slight oily feel and even though it is a water soluble ingredient, it has some oil-like properties. It does add a slightly oily feel to emulsions that I find pleasant. I consider it as part of the oils/fats in functionality, but not in figuring HLB and all that. It does add stability, since it has those properties as well. It is a useful ingredient. You can't substitute it for the glyceryl stearate though. That's would be substituting apples for oranges and won't work. It is an ingredient that has a lot of potential and that I find interesting. Hope I haven't carried on too much and this helps a bit Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 In a message dated 3/14/03 10:06:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, marlene.smith@... writes: > Hi Angie & Group > > I find this information fascinating, I was wondering if anyone knows why > it is common practice to combine at the lower temperatures. In 2 courses I > have been the instructers where very clear and emphasized the importance of > combining when the oils/water after melting (oils) and boiling (water) > reached temperatures of 110F. In other words, what is the rationale > between > the two methods. > > Thanks & kind regards > > Hi , My guess--based on some posts I've read-- is that it has something to do with a fear of compromising or destroying the beneficial components of the ingredients with too much heat. It's true that some materials are heat-sensitive and should only be added at cooler temps....some preservatives, essential oils/fragrance oils. From my rationale, there are two considerations in using heat to make emulsions. First, heat is very effective at destroying many microbes and it is only smart to use it to our advantage. Based on what I've experienced and also been told, it's best if all water soluble ingredients are heated and held at a constant temp for 15-20 minutes or so. I usually prepare the water phase first and allow it to sit covered while I prepare the oil phase. The rationale behind this practice has to do with trying to make the water phase as " clean " as possible. I don't treat the oils in the same way. I heat the solid lipids/fats/fatty alcohols/emulsifying waxes and the stable oils together until they melt, then I add the more fragile oils---if there are any---like evening primrose oil---just before I add the two phases together. I don't expose the fragile oils to any more heat than is necessary to form a stable emulsion...usually around 165F-175F. I hear folks talking about gritty shea and such, but have no idea about it as I have never experienced it and I always heat shea this way?? Anyhow, some of the water will evaporate from the water phase and will need to be replaced (should be boiled/well-heated water). The second consideration has to do with the heat energy required to make an emulsion. I also like to add my water to my oils and hope for the magic of PIT I know that emulsions can be formed even without heat, but this is they way I've learned to make them. Maybe some other listbuds have experiences they would be willing to share. I picture these reactions in my head (to show you how strange I am Wouldn't it be so fascinating to really see all this happening on a molecular level and to compare the differences? Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 A slight loss of stability is what I was thinking too Angie, it is weird that it still looks/feels creamy when pumped out, just feels a little like it is breaking apart during the application part. So glyc. stearate is also an emulsifier, like ewax NF, but also acts as a stabalizer? Would I reduce the ewax percentage and make up the difference with it? And I was looking at your venasilk product. How do you think this would work within this formula, if I tried some would I reduce one of the oils? And could this possibly take the place of the stabilizing effect of the glyc. stearate, or are these two completely different reactions? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to expand my brain (ouch)! Baird Paradise Valley Natural Skincare www.soapessentials.com These are my thoughts though...it > sounds a little like it could be a stability problem. If you want to stick > with your same basic formula, then you could add some glyceryl > stearate...maybe 1.3-1.4%. I think that should help with the stability. Once > you have done that and if you like the appearance and the way it feels, you > may want to do a freeze/thaw stability test to see if you notice any changes > in the lotion that you had previously noticed. The other thing you may want > to consider-- since this is a lotion, would be to decrease your oils and > increase your water phase. If it were me, I would probably reduce the sweet > almond and add something to the water phase for moisture retention...like a > protein perhaps. > > Maybe other folks have other suggestions?? > Angie > The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care > Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality > at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 That's a tremendous help, Angie, thank you. I too, have a lotion that I absolutely love, but even though it is a thick lotion, it sometimes has a watery feeling upon application. Within 1-2 seconds, it just feels like lotion. Looking back at my formula, I have 2% glycerin, 12% oils/butters, 68.5% water, 10% Aloe, 5% Polawax and 1.5% stearic acid. So a slight change in oil percentage to emulsifier may be the best option. ~~ ----- Original Message ----- .....--when used at 3% will emulsify oils/butters up to 5-6%. When > used at 5%, it will emulsify veggie oils/butters up to 10% or so. The > lotions are stable. .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Angie Posted One thing to mention, I find that in making emulsions there are three important things: 1)emulsifiers 2)heat 3)mixing Heat is a very useful tool for us. In talking with alot of folks that are having stability problems, it seems that very often the phases are combined at pretty low temps...like 140F/60C. A more stable emulsion is formed with temps around 165-175F/70-80C. Heat can also destroy some microbes.....an added advantage Hi Angie & Group I find this information fascinating, I was wondering if anyone knows why it is common practice to combine at the lower temperatures. In 2 courses I have been the instructers where very clear and emphasized the importance of combining when the oils/water after melting (oils) and boiling (water) reached temperatures of 110F. In other words, what is the rationale between the two methods. Thanks & kind regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 >I was wondering if anyone knows why >it is common practice to combine at the lower temperatures. That is not the common practice in the cosmetic industry. Many of the waxes, esters and other additives melt above 110F (43.3C). The Stearic Acid I use has a melt range of 54.5C to 56.6C. The melt range for Polawax (Emulsifying Wax NF) is 48C to 52C The melt range for Cetyl Alcohol is 45C to 50C. Also, heating to 110F will kill any microorganisms that are present in your water phase. >In 2 courses I >have been the instructers where very clear and emphasized the importance of >combining when the oils/water after melting (oils) and boiling (water) >reached temperatures of 110F. What were the qualifications of the instructors? > In other words, what is the rationale between the two methods. IMO, there is no rational for heating the water phase and oil phase to lower temperatures like 110F. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 >Also, heating to 110F will kill any microorganisms that are present in your water phase. Using water that had been boiled should kill any microorganisms. Also heating to 80C for 15 to 20 minutes should do the job. Both methods are effective at killing microorganisms that are present in the water phase. I wonder which method is more energy efficient. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Hi , From my rationale, there are two considerations in using heat to make emulsions. First, heat is very effective at destroying many microbes and it is only smart to use it to our advantage. I totally agree. Based on what I've experienced and also been told, it's best if all water soluble ingredients are heated and held at a constant temp for 15-20 minutes or so. I usually prepare the water phase first and allow it to sit covered while I prepare the oil phase. This is also what I do. I heat the solid lipids/fats/fatty alcohols/emulsifying waxes and the stable oils together until they melt, then I add the more fragile oils---if there are any---like evening primrose oil---just before I add the two phases together. Thanks for this, I will also do this from now on. I hear folks talking about gritty shea I have experienced this in lip balms, but never in a lotion. The second consideration has to do with the heat energy required to make an emulsion. I also like to add my water to my oils and hope for the magic of PIT At what temperature do you combine your water to oils I have been told 110F. I picture these reactions in my head (to show you how strange I am ;)Wouldn't it be so fascinating to really see all this happening on a molecular level and to compare the differences? Maurice, Angie and everyone else on the list you always give my poor brain so many wonderful new things to think about. This list is never boring and always very informative. I really appreciate all the input from everyone. Kind regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Opps, when I received it back there was no way to dicipher my reply. So I am resending it. RE: lotion " feel " question > From my rationale, there are two considerations in using heat to make emulsions. First, heat is very effective at destroying many microbes and it is only smart to use it to our advantage < I totally agree. > Based on what I've experienced and also been told, it's best if all water soluble ingredients are heated and held at a constant temp for 15-20 minutes or so. I usually prepare the water phase first and allow it to sit covered while I prepare the oil phase. < This is also what I do. > I heat the solid lipids/fats/fatty alcohols/emulsifying waxes and the stable oilstogether until they melt, then I add the more fragile oils---if there are any---like evening primrose oil---just before I add the two phases together. < Thanks for this, I will also do this from now on. > I hear folks talking about gritty shea .< I have experienced this in lip balms, but never in a lotion. > The second consideration has to do with the heat energy required to make an emulsion. I also like to add my water to my oils and hope for the magic of PIT < At what temperature do you combine your water to oils I have been told 110F. < > I picture these reactions in my head (to show you how strange I am ;)Wouldn't it be so fascinating to really see all this happening on a molecular level and to compare the differences? < Maurice, Angie and everyone else on the list you always give my poor brain so many wonderful new things to think about. This list is never boring and always very informative. I really appreciate all the input from everyone. Kind regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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