Re: Some reflections on pain and suffering/ander

[Guest guest]

Dear Andy,

I just found your comments!

>> And I believe that the pain does a crescendo, just in case we

>> didn't notice, until we find it.

> *****Again, it's not that simple.

I understand. Is it true? And I am not saying that it is not.

*****Apparently, for me, it was, at the moment that the thought was

created.

> What you describe can happen, and the pain may be turned inward or

> outward. But there are other ways of dealing with, coping with

> pain. There is avoidance -- perhaps a life-long battle since all of

> its strategies are only temporary.

Yes.

> Avoidance offers many options, from books, films, sports, adult

> beverages, sex, and " pharmaceuticals. " These may provide short or

> long-term respites from pain. Even more effective is sublimation

> where the energy devoted to coping with the pain is redirected

> towards more fulfilling " outward " activities, e.g., artistic

> endeavors or volunteering commitments.

So we can deal with it, without having to notice where it comes from.

Is that what you are saying?

*****I'm not sure what " deal with " pain means. A lot of " stuff "

happens unconsciously (without our recognizing that it is

happening). It is my belief that we do what we do, and afterwards,

we " explain " (usually in logical terms) just " why " we did what we

did. So pain happens and one may find an outlet (either avoiding the

feeling or sublimating through another activity). Is that " dealing

with " the pain. I am not sure. Clear getting stoned or drunk

(avoidence) is not dealing with pain. It is coping with the pain,

but not " dealing with " it, as I understand the meaning of " to deal

with. " And submlimation, as it is defined psychologically, is

a " diversion. " No, neither of the approaches actually " deals with "

pain. I think " dealing with " pain requires going into it,

experiencing it both mentally (the thoughts) and physically (where it

is being held and expressed in the body). And to do that one needs

to feel safe, to trust the process.

And different people got different ways of dealing with it.

*****Absolutely.

And how can I know that *you* dealt with your pain, or avoided it, or

even had any?

*****All you can ever know are the thoughts which appear, and which

create you.

I am the master of my *own* pain. So if I " avoid " , I " forget " to

create the pain. I am doing something else.

*****I don't agree. I don't think you have any control over your

*own* pain. Or anything else for that matter. Thoughts think you;

you don't think the thoughts. :-))

Am not *I* the reason of my pain, the origin? So, if I don't

experience pain, does it exist?

*****No, God is the origin of your pain, as It is of everything,

including the thoughts which constitute " you. " If the pain stops,

regardless of what practice you were doing just before it ceased,

know that the moving Force behind its stopping was not " you, " but It.

I look for where the pain comes from, to see what I have not solved,

yet. In the moment I don't experience pain, everything is solved!

What else exists but the moment?

*****And that is unfathomable, unbreachable, untouchable.

[Guest guest]

>>

> *****No, God is the origin of your pain,

That is a belief, my friend.

You may be in the desert and see water in the distance. It appears

real to you. You may say God created it (it appears very real) but

in reality, it never existed, it was never real. It is a product of

the mind. To say that God creates suffering or pain may not be the

truth.

Greg

[Guest guest]

> *****No, God is the origin of your pain,

That is a belief, my friend.

You may be in the desert and see water in the distance. It appears

real to you. You may say God created it (it appears very real) but

in reality, it never existed, it was never real. It is a product of

the mind. To say that God creates suffering or pain may not be the

truth.

Greg

*****I don't disagree that it is a belief. What is not? And while

we're at it, how would differentiate truth from belief? Is it your

belief ;-)) that truth is knowable?

[Guest guest]

> >>

> > *****No, God is the origin of your pain,

>

> That is a belief, my friend.

>

> You may be in the desert and see water in the distance. It appears

> real to you. You may say God created it (it appears very real) but

> in reality, it never existed, it was never real. It is a product

of

> the mind. To say that God creates suffering or pain may not be the

> truth.

>

> Greg

Hi Greg

" God is the origin of your pain "

" God is not the origin of your pain "

I think everything is a story.

Pick the one's that

make you peacfull.

Love

Tami

[Guest guest]

> So we can deal with [pain], without having to notice where it

> comes from. Is that what you are saying?

>*****I'm not sure what " deal with " pain means.

And yet you used it.

*****We make due with what we've got on hand. :-)) I did elaborate

on it in the paragraph below.

> A lot of " stuff "

> happens unconsciously (without our recognizing that it is

> happening). It is my belief that we do what we do, and afterwards,

> we " explain " (usually in logical terms) just " why " we did what we

> did. So pain happens and one may find an outlet (either avoiding

> the feeling or sublimating through another activity). Is

> that " dealing with " the pain. I am not sure. Clear getting stoned

> or drunk (avoidence) is not dealing with pain. It is coping with

> the pain, but not " dealing with " it, as I understand the meaning

> of " to deal with. "

Well, it is giving yourself a rest from it, isn't it? Like Valium.

*****Do any of the avoidance mechanisms actually provide rest? A

dentist injects your mouth with novocaine and begins drilling. Is

there pain? Are the nerves stimulated? My understanding is that the

answer to both these questions is yes. However the subjective

experience of pain is blocked by the novocaine. Still, the body

knows. Same with Valium. And I'm not taking a stand against it, or

any other avoidance or sublimation activity...I'm simply exploring

them here. Valium does not, from what I understand, remove the

upset; it allows one not to be upset with the upset. :-)))) Subtle

difference. So is there really a rest from it, or is it still

continuing, just not as obstreperously, not as much in the forefront

of consciousness? I don't know; I've never taken it. Perhaps

someone with firsthand experience can " enlighten " us. :-))

> And submlimation, as it is defined psychologically, is

> a " diversion. " No, neither of the approaches actually " deals with "

> pain. I think " dealing with " pain requires going into it,

> experiencing it both mentally (the thoughts) and physically (where

> it is being held and expressed in the body). And to do that one

> needs to feel safe, to trust the process.

What comes up for me is a situation I was in a year ago.

I felt like my heart was torn aparted, and I cried for hours. And

eventually, I realized that my mind had wandered off. So it was like:

hmmm… what was I doing? - Crying.

Why on earth was I crying? - Oh, right.

… and on I went crying.

*****You know, I've occasionally wondered: how much of our

disinclination to feel " bad " feelings, such as grief, sadness,

loneliness, is a function of societial conditioning, adopted

unconsciously, at a very early age. And how much is an innate

protective mechanism, hard-wired into the very cellular level of the

organism.

> And how can I know that *you* dealt with your pain, or avoided it,

> or even had any?

> *****All you can ever know are the thoughts which appear, and which

> create you.

" know the thoughts " - perceive, you mean?

*****Yes. Is there *conscious* awareness of them, or are they just

functioning in a subterranean region of the brain.

As we came to see, often they are not even true. " thoughts create

me " - so who am I without them?

*****What you are even with them. What you are, with or without

them, is what you always were, always have been, always will be. Be

it can't see itself. It's like the eye trying to see itself without

a reflecting surface. Or like a knife trying to cut itself. ;-)

> I am the master of my *own* pain. So if I " avoid " , I " forget " to

> create the pain. I am doing something else.

> *****I don't agree. I don't think you have any control over your

> *own* pain. Or anything else for that matter. Thoughts think you;

> you don't think the thoughts. :-))

the thought is not responsible for pain. My attachement is. I like to

read " to think thoughts " as " to perceive thoughts that come up " .

*****And you have no control over your attachment either. No control

over anything.

> Am not *I* the reason of my pain, the origin? So, if I don't

> experience pain, does it exist?

> *****No, God is the origin of your pain, as It is of everything,

> including the thoughts which constitute " you. "

And how would I perceive that?

*****How do you " know " anything? But it won't be known in any

satisfactory way through thought. Something

more.....convincing.....is required.

> If the pain stops, regardless of what practice you were doing just

> before it ceased, know that the moving Force behind its stopping

> was not " you, " but It.

What does this knowledge give me?

*****Less accretion of the sense of self perhaps. More humility.

More genuine appreciation of That which moves everything.

We are talking about pain like I would talk about an object. " Pain

is " . Ain't pain a thought?

*****Absolutely. They've recently shown that emotional pain, " hurt

feelings " light up the same parts of the brain that are lit up when

there is physical pain, such as when one steps on a nail with one's

bare foot.

Someone steps on my hand… just a little bit, so I withdraw it. If I

concentrate on something else, and the thought of " pain " does not

appear, did it hurt?

*****I don't know how it is for you. I have experienced instances

where I was concentrating on something else and " pain " happened:

sitting, reading a novel, deeply engrossed in it. Someone I am not

aware of walks up behind me and smacks! me on the back of the head.

Ouch! As an afterthought, I call the sensation which birthed

the " ouch " -response " pain. " What one calls it is one's own business,

but there was a sensation, not one that felt " good " (like a nice

sensual massage). That is all I know.

> I look for where the pain comes from, to see what I have not solved,

> yet. In the moment I don't experience pain, everything is solved!

>

> What else exists but the moment?

> *****And that is unfathomable, unbreachable, untouchable.

And everlasting! ;-)

*****I would say each moment is so brief as to be unmeasurable by any

scale.