Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Hi Jan, it seems to me that what you're saying is similar to what I wished to express. But I get the impression that you think it's not. Is that true? And if so, could you please say more about in which way what we're saying is different? Eva > > Eva wrote- > > As I see it right now, the fun is that the two are happening > together, as two hands together making a clapping sound. The deepest > recesses of one's heart are nothing without the offerings of the > world, and vice versa. > In tandem, all that is happening is divine, amazing, entertaining. > > And when there's no clapping sound, it is because I have lost > awareness of the other hand, not because I'm enjoying offerings of > the world. > > Jan responds- > Not from me, but from a wonderful zen writer - R.H. Blythe - who does > a wonderful job in explaining the inside of a zen koan. > > The sound of one hand clapping is heard when you have that tremendous > realization that NOTHING is outside you - and you KNOW it with every > fiber of your beingness. > > As with all addictions, we do a lot of faking it that is simply a > detour until we get sick of yet another fraudulent belief, do the > work, undo it and keep going. > > Blessings - Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 " Eva Lobach " wrote: > > Hi Jan, > And if so, could you please say more about in which way what we're > saying is different? > > Eva > > > > > Eva wrote- > > > > As I see it right now, the fun is that the two are happening > > together, as two hands together making a clapping sound. My perception is that there's just the one - not two. When the perceiver disappears - and this is my greatest fear is to really get that the perceiver always keeps me from my happiness - and I sink into the experience - my experience is that there is just one - not me and the world - just me - no boundaries. > > > > And when there's no clapping sound, it is because I have lost > > awareness of the other hand, not because I'm enjoying offerings of > > the world. > > So let me see the above paragraph differently than I originally saw it. Ah yes - deliciously delightful... Gasso, Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Hi Jan, I don't understand what you're doing, so I don't know how to respond. I did notice, however, that you didn't quote the part from my message without which the (apparently ill-chosen) metaphor about the clapping hands doesn't make sense. In that part I try to express that facelift, mercedes, thoughts, feelings, silence are all similar. What we call thoughts are similar to what we call facelifts. You can regard them all as offerings of the world (that was your phrase), or they're all inside. But since there's no out or in anymore when all is either in or out, it makes no sense to discern the two, really. So that's where I assumed we agreed. It still appears to make sense (to me) to notice that in one situation there is no awareness of this fact, and in the other situation there is, in the deepest recesses of my heart, an awareness that it is all one. So there is apparently two, namely all the offerings of the world (which you could all locate either inside or out, but essentially the location is meaningless), and the awareness (or the experiencing of them) in the deepest recesses of my heart. To stress the intimacy of this going together, I used a metaphor of two clapping hands. I must assume that was confusing. For me it is confusing to read your responses to my messages. It seems as if you wish to tell me something but you hide it in irony, perhaps? So it's lost on me, I'm afraid. Eva > > > > Hi Jan, > > > And if so, could you please say more about in which way what we're > > saying is different? > > > > Eva > > > > > > > > > Eva wrote- > > > > > > As I see it right now, the fun is that the two are happening > > > together, as two hands together making a clapping sound. > > My perception is that there's just the one - not two. When the > perceiver disappears - and this is my greatest fear is to really get > that the perceiver always keeps me from my happiness - and I sink into > the experience - my experience is that there is just one - not me and > the world - just me - no boundaries. > > > > > > > And when there's no clapping sound, it is because I have lost > > > awareness of the other hand, not because I'm enjoying offerings of > > > the world. > > > > > So let me see the above paragraph differently than I originally saw it. > > Ah yes - deliciously delightful... > > Gasso, > > Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 " Eva Lobach " wrote: > > In that part I try to express that facelift, mercedes, thoughts, > feelings, silence are all similar. As long as you are calling them similar, then by that alone, they are not. To speak of similar, dissimilar must coexist. What we call thoughts are similar > to what we call facelifts. You can regard them all as offerings of > the world (that was your phrase), or they're all inside. No, it is the identification of what we feel gives us happiness that switches from THAT to that which is not. We all have this experience. When you ask the question...A facelift will make me happier...or I should get a facelift...or a facelift is a good idea...only if you take your bodily-identified ego with you do any responses to these inquiries make positive sense. Take the " guru's " behavior out of the message. Even though being a pedophile is fine - nothing wrong with it - is quick to comment - I'm not recommending anyone go out and seek love from a child...now if it is okay why is she following it up with a caveat... I'm gonna go back and use R.H. Blythe again...for somebody who is a societal nothing parasitically living off relatives becoming the best burglar one could possibly be may take that person to a deeper self realization. For you and me probably not. It's about ANYTHING in life that will take you more deeper into THAT. Then eventually being a burglar doesn't work...so you uplevel it to your next step... Everything is FOR you. EVERYTHING. Facelifts and divorce - for me - you as an ego are still pushing the river and pulling the river...from this one person's perspective. That she got them - fab - for me neither action would serve to take me deeper into that which is...just like a pedophile's behavior to me. We are enlightened now, now, oops judging person, now, TV, now, lost in thoughts, now, now, and on and on and on. As you take more delight in the depths of your beingness...now, now, now, now, now, ooops, now, now, now, now, oops. Ultimately it is all love, all part of the same consciousness - but when you do not see this with every fiber of your being - and our cognitive selves can be quite clever at getting us to THINK we're there. This isn't about thinking this is totally about the experience of being. > But since there's no out or in anymore when all is either in or out, > it makes no sense to discern the two, really. > So that's where I assumed we agreed. And so we do...thus the one hand clapping is a delightful reference. > > It still appears to make sense (to me) to notice that in one > situation there is no awareness of this fact, and in the other > situation there is, in the deepest recesses of my heart, an > awareness that it is all one. When you really get it...really get that you are the apple you eat...whole nother game. > So there is apparently two, namely all the offerings of the world > (which you could all locate either inside or out, but essentially > the location is meaningless), and the awareness (or the experiencing > of them) in the deepest recesses of my heart. To stress the intimacy > of this going together, I used a metaphor of two clapping hands. When there is only one hand clapping - there ceases to be the naming of apple and of person eating apple. > > I must assume that was confusing. > For me it is confusing to read your responses to my messages. > It seems as if you wish to tell me something but you hide it in > irony, perhaps? It's not hidden at all except to those who do not see. That's why zen monks laugh and laugh because it is the Open Secret. > So it's lost on me, I'm afraid. Say did you hear about the Zen Monk who went into the pizza shop and asked the chef to make him one with everything? Blessings - Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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