Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Hey ~ >> Yes, some people say so. That doesn't make it real, does it? > *****I have no idea what is " genuinely " real, but what I take for > real are all the things which are not thoughts: the perfume of ice > on a hot summer day, the sound of the late winter sky, the color a > gushing burst of joy... I'd take steps here. You may as well say, that nothing is real, and that would be true. When it is. *****These are deeper waters than I know how to swim in. Nothing is real? This is true? The truth right now is that I don't know and there is no concern about it. Because nothing that is real affects you. You are only affected by the story you project on it. *****I see it as " by the story that is projected on it. " I see no " I " to *do* the projecting, if and when it happens. Like all thought, projecting seems to be a mechanical process born of the innate conditioning-in-the-moment, which, of course, can be traced by infinitely. It is an icecream. - Is it true? And I am not saying it is not an icecream or a hot-dog! ;-) But don't you first have the thought, and *then* the feelings arise? *****Yes. I don't believe I said it was the other way around. And the thought may be not seen, consciously. There is an icecream, it is a hot summer's day: I want it! Oh, and my stomach hurts (it is cold, I have tooth-ache): put that away! What has the icecream to do with it? Yes, there is something that *is* real, and as soon as you put a name on it, it becomes your story. *****OK. There is something that *is* real. It is named. It becomes a story. Are you suggesting that in the naming of that-which- is-real it is no longer real? That's what is meant by: all is one, and there is no outside world. *****No. That is what YOU interpret the statement " all is one, and there is no outside world " to mean. It is YOUR spin on things. And welcome to it! But explained that with much better words. *****You underestimate your explanatory abilities. :-))) >> To me that sounds like: there may be a sound when a tree falls and >> there is no one to hear it. > *****More like, " where there's smoke there's a high probability > (though not certainty) that there's fire. " Again, a conclusion drawn > on incomplete data, but that is always the best one can do since the > data is never complete. You are still assuming there *is* data. And what *are* the numbers, the symbols you have, until you put a meaning on them? A blue spot will do. And *do* play with the data. You may as well. What else is there to do? Besides Calculus II, that is! ;-) *****There *is* data! And data does not exist. BOTH are true, simultaneously. (Or, if you prefer, BOTH are not true at the same moment. Anything uttered, written, isn't...It.) Those who can't handle living the paradox without disease may want to get out of the nondual kitchen. ;-)) > *****If there *are* - even - decisions. In the relative world > of " everyday life, " it appears that decisions occur. Through > mindbody mechanisms. I am of the belief that these decisions are > birthed prior to a conscious awareness of them -- and this would be > true for ALL thought. It is my belief, based on research and > personal investigation, that thought always arises in unconscious > regions of the brain. For some reason, most people are under the > assumption that when they " have " a thought, i.e., the thought > arrives in consciousness, that that is the moment of the thought's > birth. That is not how it happens. There is a time lag, of about > 500 milliseconds, between the origination of the thought and > its " arrival " in conscious awareness. But try to convince anyone of > that and...boom! .. most respond with rather negative evaluations of > such a theory. That's fine. The process still goes on, even without > their agreement. :-))) I notice that some thoughts are 'happy', and I welcome them. Welcoming these thoughts goes along with a good feeling. Well, since *no* thought is mine, the task is (and it's not even a task) to welcome *all* thoughts. *****As YOU see the task. It's not a matter of welcoming or not welcoming. Thoughts appear in consciousness. If one doesn't like the thought, and one is so moved, one can meditate, or do The Work, or inquire, or deconstruct thought and discover the unconscious belief systems which generated the unwelcomed thought. And maybe not even all there can possibly be, just the one appearing now. *****There seems to be exactly one thought at any moment. But so watt? :-)))) There is only a limited value in all this thinking and pontificating about this stuff (and I'm referring to me, , not you). It's not like we'll ever get to really " understanding " it: and anyway, in life, understanding is the booby prize. :-))) What is the *real* prize? What is it that is beyond value? What is not ever replacable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Dear & Andy, Reading through your conversation here brought to mind the Summary of the course in the introduction to the Course In Miracles, which says: " Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. " Steve D. - In Loving-what-is , " Andy " <endofthedream@y...> wrote: > > > > Hey ~ > > > >> Yes, some people say so. That doesn't make it real, does it? > > > *****I have no idea what is " genuinely " real, but what I take for > > real are all the things which are not thoughts: the perfume of ice > > on a hot summer day, the sound of the late winter sky, the color a > > gushing burst of joy... > > > I'd take steps here. > > You may as well say, that nothing is real, and that would be true. > When it is. > > > *****These are deeper waters than I know how to swim in. Nothing is > real? This is true? The truth right now is that I don't know and > there is no concern about it. > > > Because nothing that is real affects you. You are only affected by the > story you project on it. > > > *****I see it as " by the story that is projected on it. " I see > no " I " to *do* the projecting, if and when it happens. Like all > thought, projecting seems to be a mechanical process born of the > innate conditioning-in-the-moment, which, of course, can be traced by > infinitely. > > > It is an icecream. - Is it true? > > And I am not saying it is not an icecream or a hot-dog! ;-) > But don't you first have the thought, and *then* the feelings arise? > > > *****Yes. I don't believe I said it was the other way around. And > the thought may be not seen, consciously. > > > There is an icecream, it is a hot summer's day: I want it! > Oh, and my stomach hurts (it is cold, I have tooth-ache): put that > away! > What has the icecream to do with it? > > Yes, there is something that *is* real, and as soon as you put a name > on it, it becomes your story. > > > *****OK. There is something that *is* real. It is named. It > becomes a story. Are you suggesting that in the naming of that- which- > is-real it is no longer real? > > > That's what is meant by: all is one, and there is no outside world. > > > *****No. That is what YOU interpret the statement " all is one, and > there is no outside world " to mean. It is YOUR spin on things. And > welcome to it! > > > But explained that with much better words. > > > *****You underestimate your explanatory abilities. :-))) > > > >> To me that sounds like: there may be a sound when a tree falls and > >> there is no one to hear it. > > > *****More like, " where there's smoke there's a high probability > > (though not certainty) that there's fire. " Again, a conclusion drawn > > on incomplete data, but that is always the best one can do since the > > data is never complete. > > > You are still assuming there *is* data. And what *are* the numbers, > the symbols you have, until you put a meaning on them? > > A blue spot will do. > > And *do* play with the data. You may as well. What else is there to > do? > > Besides Calculus II, that is! ;-) > > > *****There *is* data! And data does not exist. BOTH are true, > simultaneously. (Or, if you prefer, BOTH are not true at the same > moment. Anything uttered, written, isn't...It.) Those who can't > handle living the paradox without disease may want to get out of the > nondual kitchen. ;-)) > > > > *****If there *are* - even - decisions. In the relative world > > of " everyday life, " it appears that decisions occur. Through > > mindbody mechanisms. I am of the belief that these decisions are > > birthed prior to a conscious awareness of them -- and this would be > > true for ALL thought. It is my belief, based on research and > > personal investigation, that thought always arises in unconscious > > regions of the brain. For some reason, most people are under the > > assumption that when they " have " a thought, i.e., the thought > > arrives in consciousness, that that is the moment of the thought's > > birth. That is not how it happens. There is a time lag, of about > > 500 milliseconds, between the origination of the thought and > > its " arrival " in conscious awareness. But try to convince anyone of > > that and...boom! .. most respond with rather negative evaluations of > > such a theory. That's fine. The process still goes on, even without > > their agreement. :-))) > > I notice that some thoughts are 'happy', and I welcome them. Welcoming > these thoughts goes along with a good feeling. > > Well, since *no* thought is mine, the task is (and it's not even a > task) to welcome *all* thoughts. > > > *****As YOU see the task. It's not a matter of welcoming or not > welcoming. Thoughts appear in consciousness. If one doesn't like > the thought, and one is so moved, one can meditate, or do The Work, > or inquire, or deconstruct thought and discover the unconscious > belief systems which generated the unwelcomed thought. > > > And maybe not even all there can possibly be, just the one appearing > now. > > > *****There seems to be exactly one thought at any moment. But so > watt? :-)))) There is only a limited value in all this thinking and > pontificating about this stuff (and I'm referring to me, , > not you). It's not like we'll ever get to really " understanding " it: > and anyway, in life, understanding is the booby prize. :-))) > > What is the *real* prize? What is it that is beyond value? What is > not ever replacable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 > Hey ~ Hi! >>>> Yes, some people say so. That doesn't make it real, does it? >>> *****I have no idea what is " genuinely " real, but what I take for >>> real are all the things which are not thoughts: the perfume of ice >>> on a hot summer day, the sound of the late winter sky, the color a >>> gushing burst of joy... >> I'd take steps here. >> You may as well say, that nothing is real, and that would be true. >> When it is. > *****These are deeper waters than I know how to swim in. Oh, Andy! Is that true? ;-) I don't think you can help swimming, can you? > Nothing is real? This is true? The truth right now is that I don't > know and there is no concern about it. > >> Because nothing that is real affects you. You are only affected by >> the story you project on it. > *****I see it as " by the story that is projected on it. " I see no " I " > to *do* the projecting, if and when it happens. Like all > thought, projecting seems to be a mechanical process born of the > innate conditioning-in-the-moment, which, of course, can be traced by > infinitely. Yes. Thoughts appear. I don't make them come. What I notice is, that when I investigate, the projection stops. Or is stopped, or whatever. It just doesn't occur anymore. >> It is an icecream. - Is it true? >> And I am not saying it is not an icecream or a hot-dog! ;-) >> But don't you first have the thought, and *then* the feelings arise? > *****Yes. I don't believe I said it was the other way around. And > the thought may be not seen, consciously. >> There is an icecream, it is a hot summer's day: I want it! >> Oh, and my stomach hurts (it is cold, I have tooth-ache): put that >> away! >> What has the icecream to do with it? >> >> Yes, there is something that *is* real, and as soon as you put a name >> on it, it becomes your story. > *****OK. There is something that *is* real. It is named. It becomes > a story. Are you suggesting that in the naming of that-which-is-real > it is no longer real? The name itself is not real. That's what is projected on. And I can be aware of that. Or not. And you may not even need a word to name it. >> That's what is meant by: all is one, and there is no outside world. > *****No. That is what YOU interpret the statement " all is one, and > there is no outside world " to mean. It is YOUR spin on things. And > welcome to it! Yes, of course. What can I convey other than my truth, with my limited capabilities? >> But explained that with much better words. > *****You underestimate your explanatory abilities. :-))) Thank you, Andy. >>>> To me that sounds like: there may be a sound when a tree falls and >>>> there is no one to hear it. >>> *****More like, " where there's smoke there's a high probability >>> (though not certainty) that there's fire. " Again, a conclusion drawn >>> on incomplete data, but that is always the best one can do since the >>> data is never complete. >> You are still assuming there *is* data. And what *are* the numbers, >> the symbols you have, until you put a meaning on them? >> >> A blue spot will do. >> >> And *do* play with the data. You may as well. What else is there to >> do? >> >> Besides Calculus II, that is! ;-) > *****There *is* data! And data does not exist. BOTH are true, > simultaneously. (Or, if you prefer, BOTH are not true at the same > moment. Anything uttered, written, isn't...It.) Those who can't > handle living the paradox without disease may want to get out of the > nondual kitchen. ;-)) Well, if data *is* without me, then data is not my buisness, is it? Where I was going, was, that data - numbers for instance - are symbols, figures. If you take away the projection, the things it represents - call it thoughts, or stories - what is left? >>> *****If there *are* - even - decisions. In the relative world >>> of " everyday life, " it appears that decisions occur. Through >>> mindbody mechanisms. I am of the belief that these decisions are >>> birthed prior to a conscious awareness of them -- and this would be >>> true for ALL thought. It is my belief, based on research and >>> personal investigation, that thought always arises in unconscious >>> regions of the brain. For some reason, most people are under the >>> assumption that when they " have " a thought, i.e., the thought >>> arrives in consciousness, that that is the moment of the thought's >>> birth. That is not how it happens. There is a time lag, of about >>> 500 milliseconds, between the origination of the thought and >>> its " arrival " in conscious awareness. But try to convince anyone of >>> that and...boom! .. most respond with rather negative evaluations of >>> such a theory. That's fine. The process still goes on, even without >>> their agreement. :-))) >> >> I notice that some thoughts are 'happy', and I welcome them. Welcoming >> these thoughts goes along with a good feeling. >> >> Well, since *no* thought is mine, the task is (and it's not even a >> task) to welcome *all* thoughts. > > *****As YOU see the task. It's not a matter of welcoming or not > welcoming. Thoughts appear in consciousness. If one doesn't like > the thought, and one is so moved, one can meditate, or do The Work, > or inquire, or deconstruct thought and discover the unconscious > belief systems which generated the unwelcomed thought. Oh, yes. I call it a task because it's the only doing I know, that seems to be lasting. If it even is a doing. >> And maybe not even all there can possibly be, just the one appearing >> now. > *****There seems to be exactly one thought at any moment. But so > watt? :-)))) There is only a limited value in all this thinking and > pontificating about this stuff (and I'm referring to me, , > not you). It's not like we'll ever get to really " understanding " it: > and anyway, in life, understanding is the booby prize. :-))) Oh, understanding is *exciting*, isn't it? Such good news, that we'll never be done! (and can I really *know* that? ;-) > What is the *real* prize? What is it that is beyond value? What is > not ever replacable? What the hell! It's fun! :-) Love, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Dear Andy, thank you for the conversation. Not much to add, but: > But when it causes no upset, there is no impetus to change a lifetime > habit. > Conditioning persists with alterations moment to moment. so for changing a lifetime habit, you have to be upset? I don't think so. >> What I notice is, that when I investigate, the projection stops. Or is >> stopped, or whatever. >> It just doesn't occur anymore. > *****Yes, that has been my experience also. And I find it is true for > meditation and prayer as well. Yes, so many beautiful ways... > ~Hugs~ hugs back, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Dear Andy, thank you for the conversation. Not much to add, but: > But when it causes no upset, there is no impetus to change a > lifetime habit. Conditioning persists with alterations moment to > moment. so for changing a lifetime habit, you have to be upset? I don't think so. *****The end of a nice walk. Thank you . Perhaps we will dance again. In response to your comment, no, being upset is not a requirement for changing a lifetime habit. The change happens when it wants to. I only get to notice it after-the-fact. And then I " explain why " in ways that fit the worldview that is functioning through me at that time. A nice neat story, with a beginning, middle, and an end. As in the well-built phrase, and the long sonata of the dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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