Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Posted December 11, 2004 well, maybe Dwight won't be disappointed in me and my obsession......or will......this has been troubling me for a couple years, and I don't know what to do about it, what action to take. I am not really consumed by it, but it comes up often and I clearly haven't forgiven this person, and it causes a seething anger in me....when I am not.....confused and sad....any insights are welcome..... I am confused and saddened because A. (to protect the famous) is supposed to be an " enlightened sage " and is a spiritual teacher to many people, and was mine, ... and yet he engaged in sexual activity with some of his female " disciples " ... AND he is married .... AND he is really really old, now and still doing it....including trying to seduce a friend of mine (who cried so he stopped) AND I don't know how to reconcile his wonderful teachings, being, love .... with his affairs. I want A. to be faithful to his wife. I want him to not approach women for any sexual relationship. I want him to remain what he was in my eyes, a faithful devoted husband and an enlightened spiritual teacher. A. should not have EVER NOT ONCE let a teacher-student relationship become sexual in any way. He should NOT have turned a massage into a sexual experience. He should not have decided that someone (else) who cheated on his wife (also) is enlightened and turn that person into a " sage " - a teacher. He should honor and respect his wife by being faithful. He should not have put me in this position of confusion and loss of trust. He should not have been like other stupid unfaithful men who lie and cheat. I need A. to never have done any of these things. I need to have an opening for me to write to him, and tell him what I feel, and I just can't do it. I don't feel safe. I need for him to undo what he did. I NEED FOR HIM TO EXPLAIN TO ME EXACTLY WHY HE ACTED AS HE DID. I want him to come off his pedestal and tell the truth about himself, whatever that truth is. A. was one of the most extraordinary men I ever knew. He was kind, compassionate and loving toward me. He was a clear direct teacher of truth and his words remain with me today. He is just like all these other " gurus " who have sex with women. He cannot be trusted. He broke my heart. He is manipulative and cruel. He only cares about money. He is a businessman at heart. He is a con artist. He uses his position to get involved sexually with women, even though he is really really old now. He is not really enlightened. He just accumulates more and more money. I don't ever want him to betray his wife with other women again. I don't ever want him to betray me by not being faithful to his wife. I don't want him to have sexual experiences with women who are not his wife. Quote
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Posted December 12, 2004 Dear SilentCenter, I understand that A.'s sex life has not matched your story; therefore you are upset. You said: " I don't know what to do about it, what action to take? " Well, here is a suggestion, how about doing Worksheets on it until it lets go of you. Until you can look forward to A. having sex with all of his students/devotees/family or whatever. You may find some really good underlying beliefs around this so- called " seething anger " it appears to cause in you. Now let's get to the more important point here. You twice mentioned that A. is " really really old " . I am trying my best to understand what A.'s being " really really old " has to do with any of this? Am I to understand that his sexual activities would not be considered so bad if he were not so " really really old " ? Now, my interest in this matter is that in some circles, I am considered to be " really really old " and if I were to become an " enlightened sage " and " really really old " , what kinds of activities would be allowable? You see, this could happen and I need to be very clear on this. Merry Christmas, Steve D. > well, maybe Dwight won't be disappointed in me and my obsession......or > will......this has been troubling me for a couple years, and I don't > know what to do about it, what action to take. I am not really consumed > by it, but it comes up often and I clearly haven't forgiven this > person, and it causes a seething anger in me....when I am > not.....confused and sad....any insights are welcome..... > > I am confused and saddened because A. (to protect the famous) is > supposed to be an " enlightened sage " and is a spiritual teacher to many > people, and was mine, ... and yet he engaged in sexual activity with > some of his female " disciples " ... AND he is married .... AND he is > really really old, now and still doing it....including trying to seduce > a friend of mine (who cried so he stopped) AND I don't know how to > reconcile his wonderful teachings, being, love .... with his affairs. > > I want A. to be faithful to his wife. I want him to not approach women > for any sexual relationship. I want him to remain what he was in my > eyes, a faithful devoted husband and an enlightened spiritual teacher. > > > A. should not have EVER NOT ONCE let a teacher-student relationship > become sexual in any way. He should NOT have turned a massage into a > sexual experience. He should not have decided that someone (else) who > cheated on his wife (also) is enlightened and turn that person into a > " sage " - a teacher. He should honor and respect his wife by being > faithful. He should not have put me in this position of confusion and > loss of trust. He should not have been like other stupid unfaithful men > who lie and cheat. > > I need A. to never have done any of these things. I need to have an > opening for me to write to him, and tell him what I feel, and I just > can't do it. I don't feel safe. I need for him to undo what he did. I > NEED FOR HIM TO EXPLAIN TO ME EXACTLY WHY HE ACTED AS HE DID. I want > him to come off his pedestal and tell the truth about himself, whatever > that truth is. > > A. was one of the most extraordinary men I ever knew. He was kind, > compassionate and loving toward me. He was a clear direct teacher of > truth and his words remain with me today. He is just like all these > other " gurus " who have sex with women. He cannot be trusted. He broke > my heart. He is manipulative and cruel. He only cares about money. He > is a businessman at heart. He is a con artist. He uses his position to > get involved sexually with women, even though he is really really old > now. He is not really enlightened. He just accumulates more and more > money. > > I don't ever want him to betray his wife with other women again. I > don't ever want him to betray me by not being faithful to his wife. I > don't want him to have sexual experiences with women who are not his > wife. Quote
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Posted December 12, 2004 Dear Steve, thank you for your reply, and I will do some worksheets on it to see what happens. It has been so bottled up and blocked inside of me, that even (finally) getting those words out (that I did) was a major accomplishement for me. As for really really old, well it looks laughable the way you put it. What do I mean by it? Well, it probably has no meaning, when I look at it. I mean, I can't find the meaning. If you were to become really really old (80's and up), AND you were an enlightened sage here is what kinds of activities would be allowed you: (just so you know for the future) 1. you could not do anything that you told others they should not do. 2. you should be faithful to your wife if you were married. If, however, you were not married, and you had not taught celibacy for others, then you could engage in whatever sexual aciticity you wanted, as long as your partners were over 18. A. did not teach celibacy. He is married though. I don't know what his wife knows, but she is kind and loving and beautiful and really really old too. love, SilentCenter aka Judy > > Dear SilentCenter, > > I understand that A.'s sex life has not matched your story; therefore > you are upset. > > You said: " I don't know what to do about it, what action to take? " > > Well, here is a suggestion, how about doing Worksheets on it until it > lets go of you. Until you can look forward to A. having sex with all > of his students/devotees/family or whatever. > > You may find some really good underlying beliefs around this so- > called " seething anger " it appears to cause in you. > > Now let's get to the more important point here. You twice mentioned > that A. is " really really old " . I am trying my best to understand > what A.'s being " really really old " has to do with any of this? Am I > to understand that his sexual activities would not be considered so > bad if he were not so " really really old " ? > > Now, my interest in this matter is that in some circles, I am > considered to be " really really old " and if I were to become > an " enlightened sage " and " really really old " , what kinds of > activities would be allowable? You see, this could happen and I need > to be very clear on this. > > Merry Christmas, Steve D. > > > > well, maybe Dwight won't be disappointed in me and my > obsession......or > > will......this has been troubling me for a couple years, and I > don't > > know what to do about it, what action to take. I am not really > consumed > > by it, but it comes up often and I clearly haven't forgiven this > > person, and it causes a seething anger in me....when I am > > not.....confused and sad....any insights are welcome..... > > > > I am confused and saddened because A. (to protect the famous) is > > supposed to be an " enlightened sage " and is a spiritual teacher to > many > > people, and was mine, ... and yet he engaged in sexual activity > with > > some of his female " disciples " ... AND he is married .... AND he is > > really really old, now and still doing it....including trying to > seduce > > a friend of mine (who cried so he stopped) AND I don't know how to > > reconcile his wonderful teachings, being, love .... with his > affairs. > > > > I want A. to be faithful to his wife. I want him to not approach > women > > for any sexual relationship. I want him to remain what he was in my > > eyes, a faithful devoted husband and an enlightened spiritual > teacher. > > > > > > A. should not have EVER NOT ONCE let a teacher-student relationship > > become sexual in any way. He should NOT have turned a massage into > a > > sexual experience. He should not have decided that someone (else) > who > > cheated on his wife (also) is enlightened and turn that person into > a > > " sage " - a teacher. He should honor and respect his wife by being > > faithful. He should not have put me in this position of confusion > and > > loss of trust. He should not have been like other stupid unfaithful > men > > who lie and cheat. > > > > I need A. to never have done any of these things. I need to have an > > opening for me to write to him, and tell him what I feel, and I > just > > can't do it. I don't feel safe. I need for him to undo what he did. > I > > NEED FOR HIM TO EXPLAIN TO ME EXACTLY WHY HE ACTED AS HE DID. I > want > > him to come off his pedestal and tell the truth about himself, > whatever > > that truth is. > > > > A. was one of the most extraordinary men I ever knew. He was kind, > > compassionate and loving toward me. He was a clear direct teacher > of > > truth and his words remain with me today. He is just like all these > > other " gurus " who have sex with women. He cannot be trusted. He > broke > > my heart. He is manipulative and cruel. He only cares about money. > He > > is a businessman at heart. He is a con artist. He uses his position > to > > get involved sexually with women, even though he is really really > old > > now. He is not really enlightened. He just accumulates more and > more > > money. > > > > I don't ever want him to betray his wife with other women again. I > > don't ever want him to betray me by not being faithful to his wife. > I > > don't want him to have sexual experiences with women who are not > his > > wife. > > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Posted December 12, 2004 I am confused and saddened because A. (to protect the famous) is supposed to be an " enlightened sage " and is a spiritual teacher to many people, and was mine, ... and yet he engaged in sexual activity with some of his female " disciples " ... AND he is married .... AND he is really really old, now and still doing it....including trying to seduce a friend of mine (who cried so he stopped) AND I don't know how to reconcile his wonderful teachings, being, love .... with his affairs. *****Over the twenty-plus years of my spiritual activities, this is something I had to contend with several times: the discrepancy between my beliefs about how - as you put it - " enlightened sages " SHOULD behave, and the reality. I accept 's comment that behind every upset is an uninvestigated (perhaps unconscious) belief (or set of beliefs). *****From what I read here, what I get is tht you are experiencing feelings of disappointment, bitterness at the disappointment happening, a deep sense of betrayal, and simmering anger at being let down. The Buddha once pointed out that holding a grudge against someone is like picking up a piece of burning hot coal in one's naked hand and hurling it at the object of one's ire. The coal may or may not strike (and hurt) the other, but it sure as shit will burn *you*. I don't know how resentments and grudges end (perhaps The Work, maybe psychotherapy, meditation, prayer?), but I do know that the pain they engender always happens to -- and wounds -- the holder. I want A. to be faithful to his wife. I want him to not approach women for any sexual relationship. I want him to remain what he was in my eyes, a faithful devoted husband and an enlightened spiritual teacher. A. should not have EVER NOT ONCE let a teacher-student relationship become sexual in any way. He should NOT have turned a massage into a sexual experience. He should not have decided that someone (else) who cheated on his wife (also) is enlightened and turn that person into a " sage " - a teacher. He should honor and respect his wife by being faithful. He should not have put me in this position of confusion and loss of trust. He should not have been like other stupid unfaithful men who lie and cheat. I need A. to never have done any of these things. *****I wonder if you do. Perhaps you *think* you need it? Maybe it is possible for him to be just as he is and you be at a place of peace. I need to have an opening for me to write to him, and tell him what I feel, and I just can't do it. I don't feel safe. I need for him to undo what he did. I NEED FOR HIM TO EXPLAIN TO ME EXACTLY WHY HE ACTED AS HE DID. I want him to come off his pedestal and tell the truth about himself, whatever that truth is. *****There is always another one in line who may end up breaking your heart. I wonder if what you are looking for can be found where you are seeking. Maybe there is another, more fruitful, rewarding place to explore (and live). A. was one of the most extraordinary men I ever knew. He was kind, compassionate and loving toward me. He was a clear direct teacher of truth and his words remain with me today. He is just like all these other " gurus " who have sex with women. He cannot be trusted. He broke my heart. *****More correctly (I think): your heart was broken. (And it can heal.) He is manipulative and cruel. He only cares about money. *****From what you write, it sounds like he cares only about his own immediate pleasure. In any case, he and his cares are really not my business. He is a businessman at heart. He is a con artist. *****Sounds like a pretty successful one at that! He uses his position to get involved sexually with women, even though he is really really old now. He is not really enlightened. He just accumulates more and more money. I don't ever want him to betray his wife with other women again. I don't ever want him to betray me by not being faithful to his wife. I don't want him to have sexual experiences with women who are not his wife. *****Why not? Who does his behavior offend? Who are you saving? ~ I hope your hurt eases soon. andy Quote
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Posted December 12, 2004 Hi Judy- Those boys from India!!! They are sooooooooooo problematic when they misbehave. I don't believe in doing the work namelessly. A. has a name and his name is Amrit. Back when Amrit was head of Kripalu, I got all the legal updates via Kripalu on his many incidences of sexual misconduct - at that time three - Kripalu wanted to keep him as head of Kripalu but could not due to his inability to confess his transgressions - thus his dismissal and off he went to Pennsylvania. While at Kripalu, his most notable incident was the woman who bore his child. When pregnant at Kripalu, she confronted Amrit and he told her SHE was crazy and had her removed from Kripalu. Years later when DNA proved paternity... Because Amrit still wished to be called a " guru " and still wished to teach without owning publicly this piece of himself, I drove to a conference he was giving locally to hold that beautiful mirror up in front of him. What a master at denial. For me, he taught me that regardless of how present we are, unless we embrace all of who we are we remain unhealed. He taught me to trust ME and no matter how beautiful the words, the package, that I was the best authority on knowing what works for me and what doesn't. Thanks for the trip down memory lane...I had every Amrit video - when to his Florida workshops - felt enriched yet conflicted while there after the " expose " . I adored his verbal message so deeply that it took me years to dump all my Amrit stuff at Goodwill and move on. I no longer go to hear Amrit. For me being up front and out in the open works. That secrecy stuff is the grist of addiction-backed behaviors not the acts of an " enlightened sage " . Amrit gets to be who he is. I get to stop thinking that THAT person over there has what I want...ooops I was wrong now I have to find someone else...it's endless... got a divorce and a face lift...is this not the anti action of Loving What Is? I still take what works for me from these people and simply leave the rest. I give and Amrit the freedom to be who they chose to be and I inquire so I can know what works for me. Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Posted December 15, 2004 Dear Silent Center, This is regarding your proposed letter to your ex-teacher. You said: " Your behavior confuses me. " This sounds like a great line to do The Work on. It brings to my mind 's Three Kinds of Business. Love, Steve D. > > > > > Hi Judy- > > > > Those boys from India!!! They are sooooooooooo problematic when they > > misbehave. > > > > I don't believe in doing the work namelessly. A. has a name and his > > name is Amrit. > > > > Back when Amrit was head of Kripalu, I got all the legal updates via > > Kripalu on his many incidences of sexual misconduct - at that time > > three - Kripalu wanted to keep him as head of Kripalu but could not > > due to his inability to confess his transgressions - thus his > > dismissal and off he went to Pennsylvania. > > > > While at Kripalu, his most notable incident was the woman who bore his > > child. When pregnant at Kripalu, she confronted Amrit and he told her > > SHE was crazy and had her removed from Kripalu. Years later when DNA > > proved paternity... > > > > Because Amrit still wished to be called a " guru " and still wished to > > teach without owning publicly this piece of himself, I drove to a > > conference he was giving locally to hold that beautiful mirror up in > > front of him. > > > > What a master at denial. For me, he taught me that regardless of how > > present we are, unless we embrace all of who we are we remain > > unhealed. He taught me to trust ME and no matter how beautiful the > > words, the package, that I was the best authority on knowing what > > works for me and what doesn't. > > > > Thanks for the trip down memory lane...I had every Amrit video - when > > to his Florida workshops - felt enriched yet conflicted while there > > after the " expose " . I adored his verbal message so deeply that it > > took me years to dump all my Amrit stuff at Goodwill and move on. I > > no longer go to hear Amrit. > > > > For me being up front and out in the open works. That secrecy stuff > > is the grist of addiction-backed behaviors not the acts of an > > " enlightened sage " . > > > > Amrit gets to be who he is. I get to stop thinking that THAT person > > over there has what I want...ooops I was wrong now I have to find > > someone else...it's endless... > > > > got a divorce and a face lift...is this not the anti action of > > Loving What Is? I still take what works for me from these people and > > simply leave the rest. I give and Amrit the freedom to be who > > they chose to be and I inquire so I can know what works for me. > > > > Blessings - Jan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Posted December 15, 2004 Silent Center wrote: > Hi Jan, > I think an enlightened being could get a face lift and a divorce. At > least, I have no problem with Katy doing that. Whether she is > enlightened or not, I don't know. This sure does push a button for me...the shoulds in life - there sure are darn few of them. The experience of love is so all encompassing, so deep, so magnificent, so complete, so satisfying that to me caring about the superfieciality of what form the body takes and needing to alter it seems so superfluous. Caring about wanting this person or that person out of your life - why? All people are simply a reflection of you... So you see, for a truly enlightened person to get a face lift or a divorce is just to left of impossible - at least from an egoic perspective. In order to do either it is not the enlightened person, but the confused human... Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Posted December 15, 2004 Dear Judy, the letter to me is very moving. > Dear -------, > > I have some questions which you may (or not) answer. > > I ask these questions from a place of deep sincereity, not out of > disrespect. *is* that *really* true? (I don't know your answer, I do know mine, and only when I am honest) > How is it that you have had sexually intimate experiences with certain > of your women followers? How does this show respect for the beautiful > woman I know as your wife? How does this honor your marriage vows? Does > this kind of behavior accord with enlightenment? Yes it does as you outline later. > I think you may give the answer that a sage is not identified with the > doing; the action simple happens through him. Still, I can imagine no > instance (for example) where a true sage might intentionally harm > someone. I know a woman you harmed, by assuming it was okay for you to > touch her in an intimate way, when her intention was simply to give you > healing work. She felt violated, confused and sad. So, can you *really* know she was harmed - what does that mean? Can you *know* it wasn't the *best* for her path - even on the long run? (And I am not saying it did not harm her. Just asking: can you *really* know she was harmed? - And I am not even asking you, I am asking myself) How do I react on the thought that she was harmed by a man I held sage? > In my perception, it is NOT okay for men to touch women intimately > without permission. It is NOT okay for spiritual teachers to use their > position to get sexual favors from women. It is not okay for them to > lie to anyone. Sages shouldn't lie. Sages shouldn't use their position. Sages shouldn't rape. And I hear they do. > Your behavior confuses me. At least, the way I think about your > actions confuses me. Is that true? isn't it because of the story that he is a sage man? That's where I go with it. > Maybe you would say that your life is none of my business, and I could > agree with that on one level. On the other hand, when someone becomes a > public figure; a spiritual teacher; in essence: a guru -- then it seems > to me that certain obligations come with that. > > The obligation to be faithful to your marriage vows? The obligation NOT > to presume upon your disciples for sexual favors? > > Well, yes, I guess that I do believe these things come with the > territory. > > I remember once talking with you about my pain and confusion about my > first Guru, because he had sexual activity with young girls. I said > people are disappointed about that. You said (as I recall), “Yes, and > people will be disappointed in his successors - if they mistake the > personality for the Guru.” > > Does this mean that the guru energy comes through a human being; that > the human being has flaws and weaknesses--or at least “karma” and > “destiny” that happens anyway, in spite of enlightenment? Is it > possible for there to be both enlightenment AND what seems to be > immoral or unkind behavior. As I learn from you, the guru's body is a vessel for the enlightement. The vessel can have flaws - one may see them as flaws > For you to assume that you could intimately touch a woman who was doing > healing body work on you -- this seems to be the height of hubris > (well, one height). It seems to be just what common ordinary men do. > I thought you were different. Can you - and are you willing to - find the turnaround to this? Love and peace, PS: Dear Jan, what I hear from your story below, is that Amrit's and 's actions brought you to your final teacher: back to yourself. > I really really want to know, if there are indeed any answers. > > I don’t have these answers. Maybe you do. Maybe you don’t. Maybe you > can just tell me your story. > > > > >> >> Hi Judy- >> >> Those boys from India!!! They are sooooooooooo problematic when they >> misbehave. >> >> I don't believe in doing the work namelessly. A. has a name and his >> name is Amrit. >> >> Back when Amrit was head of Kripalu, I got all the legal updates via >> Kripalu on his many incidences of sexual misconduct - at that time >> three - Kripalu wanted to keep him as head of Kripalu but could not >> due to his inability to confess his transgressions - thus his >> dismissal and off he went to Pennsylvania. >> >> While at Kripalu, his most notable incident was the woman who bore >> his >> child. When pregnant at Kripalu, she confronted Amrit and he told >> her >> SHE was crazy and had her removed from Kripalu. Years later when DNA >> proved paternity... >> >> Because Amrit still wished to be called a " guru " and still wished to >> teach without owning publicly this piece of himself, I drove to a >> conference he was giving locally to hold that beautiful mirror up in >> front of him. >> >> What a master at denial. For me, he taught me that regardless of how >> present we are, unless we embrace all of who we are we remain >> unhealed. He taught me to trust ME and no matter how beautiful the >> words, the package, that I was the best authority on knowing what >> works for me and what doesn't. >> >> Thanks for the trip down memory lane...I had every Amrit video - when >> to his Florida workshops - felt enriched yet conflicted while there >> after the " expose " . I adored his verbal message so deeply that it >> took me years to dump all my Amrit stuff at Goodwill and move on. I >> no longer go to hear Amrit. >> >> For me being up front and out in the open works. That secrecy stuff >> is the grist of addiction-backed behaviors not the acts of an >> " enlightened sage " . >> >> Amrit gets to be who he is. I get to stop thinking that THAT person >> over there has what I want...ooops I was wrong now I have to find >> someone else...it's endless... >> >> got a divorce and a face lift...is this not the anti action of >> Loving What Is? I still take what works for me from these people and >> simply leave the rest. I give and Amrit the freedom to be who >> they chose to be and I inquire so I can know what works for me. >> >> Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Posted December 15, 2004 > Hi Jan, > I think an enlightened being could get a face lift and a divorce. At > least, I have no problem with Katy doing that. Whether she is > enlightened or not, I don't know. This sure does push a button for me...the shoulds in life - there sure are darn few of them. The experience of love is so all encompassing, so deep, so magnificent, so complete, so satisfying that to me caring about the superfieciality of what form the body takes and needing to alter it seems so superfluous. Caring about wanting this person or that person out of your life - why? All people are simply a reflection of you... So you see, for a truly enlightened person to get a face lift or a divorce is just to left of impossible - at least from an egoic perspective. In order to do either it is not the enlightened person, but the confused human... *****From what you write above you apparently have a handle on what constitutes an truly enlightened person (an enlightened person would not get a face lift, a divorce). You've got my attention. Tell me more! What else comprises an truly enlightened person? Quote
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Posted December 16, 2004 Well, as far as I heard she () was asked to have a facelift, and she could not see a reason why not. What makes a facelift different from doing the dishes? Would you call an enlighted person that does his dishes " not-enlightened " , because of that? I don't have to not-accept something for wanting to change it. The plant stands in my way, I move it over there. Harmonizes with my story of enlightement. Love, Am 16.12.2004 um 02:56 schrieb catherine: > > Hi Greg, > > I agree, action/movement happens - enlightenment or not. We keep > thinking that our prescription for life applies to others. We seem to > forget that if I have a problem with facelifts, that applies to > me...not to anyone else. You shouldn't have an abortion, you > shouldn't have a facelift, you shouldn't get a divorce...oh..um, > excuse me... " I " shouldn't have an abortion, " I " shouldnt have a > facelift, " I " shouldn't get a divorce. I keep trying to make others > live up to my code of conduct..HOPELESS. If it occurs to me to move > away from an apparent other (get a divorce and go sit on the mountain > top to mediate perhaps) and I am at peace with that, no inner struggle > - fine. It is right for me. What you do with that is your business. > How easily we get into other people's business once we've decided to > call them a 'teacher' or 'guru'. If we didn't call them that or try > to make them that they would just be another person doing their own > thing. Someone says something and I call them an > asshole and go away.. Someone else says something and I call them > wise, enlightened and make them 'my' teacher. Then they get a > facelift and I call them just another asshole....it's all about me and > my story!! lol. go figure. > > Love catherine > > ghf_dc wrote: > > >> >> So you see, for a truly enlightened person to get a face lift or a >> divorce is just to left of impossible - at least from an egoic >> perspective. >> >> In order to do either it is not the enlightened person, but the >> confused human... >> >> Blessings - Jan > > Hi Jan- > > So got a facelift and a divorce. Does any of that change the > truth of her message? For me, it does not. Loving what it does not > mean I won't work to change things. A pure perception of what is may > lead to massive action. Part of that might include a facelift, or > false teeth, or leaving a partner, giving money to the poor, etc. > Just my thoughts... > > Take care, > > Greg > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Posted December 16, 2004 " Andy " wrote: > > > > *****From what you write above you apparently have a handle on what > constitutes an truly enlightened person (an enlightened person would > not get a face lift, a divorce). You've got my attention. Tell me > more! What else comprises an truly enlightened person? I've had the pleasure of sitting at the feet of many truly wonderful people. Just been a groupie attracted to this stuff for many years. I've just noticed that people who when I am with them my experience shifts to a wonderful place of completion REALLY allows me to capture that part of myself that is whole, complete, done, needs nothing. Now you can go to the storiless moment that allows people total freedom to be " enlightened " and do anything. You're right...however, I've noticed that staying in that all encompassing nothingness is so very difficult - you have to really want it... Amrit and are still playing in the world - and that's okay. We get to do anything we want, we must simply always accept the consequences for anything we choose. Yep - I don't need to do the work on the law of thermo dynamics - for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. In my experience and Amrit are not storiless... When you claim to be storiless - there's a problem. Simply be who you are...being able to clearly see and distinguish between the human and divine yet still see that it's all divine...that's a careful walk. Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Posted December 16, 2004 " ghf_dc " <ghfdc@e...> wrote: > > Hi Jan- > > So got a facelift and a divorce. Does any of that change the > truth of her message? For me, it does not. Loving what it does not > mean I won't work to change things. A pure perception of what is may > lead to massive action. Part of that might include a facelift, or > false teeth, or leaving a partner, giving money to the poor, etc. > Just my thoughts... > > Take care, > > Greg No, any action she takes doesn't change the " message " ...If you believe that one can pull " secular " people by attracting them with " secular " behavior...once again...for me sitting at the feet of some of these men from India...all encompassing, the ugly became hypnotically beautiful, time stopped, thoughts altered....experience simply was...lifting one's face with the assist of a surgeon seems humorous, who are you leaving? and who is poor? it's all so non-existant... just my experience...and my experience is that sinking into " that " means less doingness...more beingness... Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Posted December 16, 2004 catherine wrote: > Hi Greg, > > I agree, action/movement happens - enlightenment or not. We keep thinking that our prescription for life applies to others. Someone else says something and I call them wise, enlightened and make them 'my' teacher. Then they get a facelift and I call them just another asshole....it's all about me and my story!! lol. go figure. > > Love catherine There's no prescription here...People do what people do...Loving What Is is simply about finding YOUR truth...You go inside and you ask you. When I go inside and ask me getting a facelift seems humorous and unnecessary to a deeper experience of what is - for me all I wish is the end of suffering...so for me a facelift would be in the wrong direction. Do you see a difference here? Me saying facelift - ridiculous...everyone gets on and goes judging - LOL The very fact that you are calling judging humorous is the same as me calling facelift humorous. I get that in order to take any stance at all, one misses the mark... You only get the mark when you ask yourself... And for me...my path back to God (as puts it) doesn't include a facelift...obviously for her it did. Do you not see how you use this to experience your separateness at a deeper level? Oh we on this side of separate think that anything is okay - no story - bliss - let's all get a high off joining together and agreeing with this lie. Cognitive bliss. Jan's over there with her " lie " . I get to feel righteous feeling over here... What a hoot...it just all is...what works for you But when what works for you is directed at another...serious missing of the mark. I'm okay with anyone believing anything...it's your path...go there...it needs no defense...no belittling of others... Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Posted December 16, 2004 jan ~ i get that my stories are about MY thinking, not about you, katie or anyone else out there. what i write here applies to me and is about the way i think. and yes, my experience is that if i want to know something, really, i need to go inside and ask me. that's what i'm talkin' about. my judgements about others are really for me to live, not for the person i am judging. just as i don't 'get' how you use your experience to stay stuck some place, i realise that you don't really know anything about what i am experiencing, or what i use to stay stuck ~ as much as you may or may not think you do. cheers, catherine jan wrote: catherine wrote: > Hi Greg, > > I agree, action/movement happens - enlightenment or not. We keep thinking that our prescription for life applies to others. Someone else says something and I call them wise, enlightened and make them 'my' teacher. Then they get a facelift and I call them just another asshole....it's all about me and my story!! lol. go figure. > > Love catherine There's no prescription here...People do what people do...Loving What Is is simply about finding YOUR truth...You go inside and you ask you. When I go inside and ask me getting a facelift seems humorous and unnecessary to a deeper experience of what is - for me all I wish is the end of suffering...so for me a facelift would be in the wrong direction. Do you see a difference here? Me saying facelift - ridiculous...everyone gets on and goes judging - LOL The very fact that you are calling judging humorous is the same as me calling facelift humorous. I get that in order to take any stance at all, one misses the mark... You only get the mark when you ask yourself... And for me...my path back to God (as puts it) doesn't include a facelift...obviously for her it did. Do you not see how you use this to experience your separateness at a deeper level? Oh we on this side of separate think that anything is okay - no story - bliss - let's all get a high off joining together and agreeing with this lie. Cognitive bliss. Jan's over there with her " lie " . I get to feel righteous feeling over here... What a hoot...it just all is...what works for you But when what works for you is directed at another...serious missing of the mark. I'm okay with anyone believing anything...it's your path...go there...it needs no defense...no belittling of others... Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Posted December 16, 2004 Dear Jan and all, Hi from the occasionally lurking Carol (as in almost never). The " spiritual teachers " threads always catch my eye because I'm always telling stories about them. Right now I'm in an existential snit and not loving what is in the form of satsang and " enlightened ones. " I could question my beliefs about all those Sri Fill-in-the-Blank-ji's, and I have before...and for now I choose not to, as I'm enjoying being right about 'em. I'm sure I'll get sick of myself eventually.... Anyway, as far as I know, I've never met a " truly enlightened person " ...and of course I am in no position to know what that means anyhow, not being one. " Amrit and are still playing in the world. " As are the ones who sit on dung-heaps with no preferences, seems to me. The " no preference " story, the " no higher and lower " story. Still stories. I love to question " enlightened " people who say, " There's no separation, no me and no you " with " Oh really, then who is talking to whom in this moment and if not us then why even bother? " This stuff can't be talked about and remain " the truth. " It's just blah, blah, blah. So we'll never know, at least I won't, not now anyway, and I'm fine with that. How I feel in the presence of any being is my story -- nothing more, nothing less. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with them. This is not a new discussion thread, we've spoken about how people had really " high " experiences being around Hitler and Manson. Muktananda was dicking around with underage girls while giving shaktipat and excuses were made for his being beyond the beyond because people had these " experiences " which they don't like to own for themselves; they have to attribute it to guru's grace. I understand this, I was that way for years. (I don't exactly own my own power now either.) For my part, I notice acute story loss about myself in 's presence, and that's a story too. She hasn't ever told me anything about me that's not true for me; I don't really give a damn about how she conducts her personal life and what stories she tells about it as long as no harm is done, and " harm " would be my story as well. How does this differ from the " crazy wisdom " devotees? Well, I don't see facelifts and divorces as higher or lower, just your basic human stuff that comes with being in a body. I do see ritual murders and child sexual abuse as lower. Silly deluded me, guess I need to do some more worksheets, not enlightened yet. For the record, has never claimed enlightenment. She has said, " You don't wake up forever. It's now. Now. Now. " I assume that is her experience and therefore she, too, is not story-less. Who knows? Not me! Happy holidays everyone. Love, inasmuch as she is capable of that, and with many conditions, Carol > > > > > > > > > *****From what you write above you apparently have a handle on what > > constitutes an truly enlightened person (an enlightened person would > > not get a face lift, a divorce). You've got my attention. Tell me > > more! What else comprises an truly enlightened person? > > I've had the pleasure of sitting at the feet of many truly wonderful > people. Just been a groupie attracted to this stuff for many years. > > I've just noticed that people who when I am with them my experience > shifts to a wonderful place of completion REALLY allows me to capture > that part of myself that is whole, complete, done, needs nothing. > > Now you can go to the storiless moment that allows people total > freedom to be " enlightened " and do anything. You're right...however, > I've noticed that staying in that all encompassing nothingness is so > very difficult - you have to really want it... > > Amrit and are still playing in the world - and that's okay. > > We get to do anything we want, we must simply always accept the > consequences for anything we choose. > > Yep - I don't need to do the work on the law of thermo dynamics - for > every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. > > In my experience and Amrit are not storiless... > > When you claim to be storiless - there's a problem. > > Simply be who you are...being able to clearly see and distinguish > between the human and divine yet still see that it's all > divine...that's a careful walk. > > Blessings - Jan Quote
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Posted December 16, 2004 In my experience and Amrit are not storiless... *****What evidence do you see that this is so? What evidence do you have that has said that she is without stories? I'm curious about your information as I've never read or heard her assert that she is without stories. I do know that she has said " [My] happiness is all a projection. " (p. 239, LWI) When you claim to be storiless - there's a problem. *****For sure! Using language, there may not be a way out: even the claim of being storyless is a story. By defintion () a story is any thought, or sequence of thoughts, that we convince ourselves are real. " Stories are the untested, uninvestigated theories that tell us what things mean. " (p. 5, LWI) Reminds me of the title of a book by a zen teacher, Wu Kwang: " Open Mouth, Already a Mistake. " :-))) Quote
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 > In my experience and Amrit are not storiless... > > When you claim to be storiless - there's a problem. > Blessings - Jan Dear Jan, I invite you to take a look at your problem. Look at how your mind think it knows how and Amrit are. Ask the four questions for the love of truth, and maybe you will come to see that there is no problem, only stories. All my love, Quote
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 Well, I am the one who started this spiritual teachers work..... (and I have been working on this below for a couple days - and haven't read any new posts since then) -- so here I stumble thru the vast cavern of my own mind....... Something interesting (to me) (coincidental?) happened since I began the work on this issue, I got a call today about this very teacher (on whom I was doing the work). He is in India holding a seminar. Several women I know just stopped attending his talks ....... because of his most recent sexual behavior (he is 80+). This is the first time his behavior has come out into the open like this, been talked about, “inner circle” women exchanging stories and now he will be confronted. I feel much less of a charge about it (then if I hadn’t done any work). However I notice I do feel somewhat vindicated. But what I mostly feel is a sense of relief - like maybe I can get an answer now. Maybe what he teaches and how he acts have a clear explanation. Maybe it can all make sense. I want it all to make sense to me. Mostly - I just want him to be REAL - HONEST. Tell the truth. I love him. I still hold out hope that this particular teacher, when confronted, will be real. He will not deny (as opposed to my earlier " gurus " ). I do sincerely want to know. Although my thinking about his behavior confuses me, his teaching - his words - remain with me, as a great signpost that pointed me where I am today - and for that I am grateful. Anyway, here is my work........I will try and clarify the issue.....if I can First of all, as far as I'm concerned (and I'm not) can get all the facelifts she doesn't find a reason to say no to. (Although it must also possible to look inside if someone asks you to get a facelift and say, " I couldn't find a reason why. " Hmm. As possible as to say, " I couldn't find a reason why not. " (This take interests me). Spiritual teachers (Gurus) who claim enlightenment should be honest. They should not say one thing and do another, unless they are honest about it. They should not sexually approach women (or girls) (or anyone) who come to them to find God, should not abuse power and authority, causing harm and confusion. They should not use fancy spiritual rhetoric to vindicate or explain their behavior. They should always tell the truth. IIT Spiritual teachers who claim enlightenment should be honest? Yes, I believe they should operate from a basic integrity. Do I know they should be honest? How could I know? If I KNEW there would not be a problem. The problem is the confusion that results when I believe they should be honest AND they appear not to be. CIAbsolutelyKnowITrue Spiritual teachers should be honest? This throws into question the concept of honesty. But yes, I think their words and actions should match. I think they should conform to my conception of honesty. Can any Sp.T ever actually conform to my conception? So far, I know of one (still living) who does - but I notice this fear in the back of my mind that she might " fall " (from Grace) - (she's my last hold-out). The men (and a womn or two) have all failed (except the ones who were dead when I " met " them and remain pristine in my mind) - but one female saint (and a couple dead ones) fit all my concepts (so far). HDIR? (My reactions are becoming more mellow, some of these are from the past)-- I watch for signs of deception. I talk to certain people if I see signs. I feel sad and bitter if I see any sign of deception. When I have been deceived, I have felt like my world was falling apart. I have placed some teachers on a pedestal. That made me starry-eyed and stupid, ripe to be deceived (either directly or indirectly) because I made all their actions okay, including sexual (or believed lies, went into denial.) Any thought of dishonesty in a Sp T. (read Guru) - makes me feel I have lost my base, nothing is solid or real. I can't trust anyone. It was all a trick (to get money, get sex, get fame, get power, get off on, get an easy life, get attention, get followers) - I have been used, tricked, betrayed. If that teacher is a fake, then all his (her) teachings are fake. I don't know what to believe. I ask other people. I feel deeply sad because I can't find Truth. If the spiritual teacher is not honest, my highest ideals are nothing. I feel closed-off. I judge other people’s Guru’s according to my perceptions. I think people with Guru’s are being naive and starry-eyed, putting someone else above them, buying into the trip. The Guru Trip. I feel bored. I feel they are stupid. I am superior because I know the truth. I wait for the downfall of their Guru. I hope they will not be deceived. I think they should find the truth within. Married men who call themselves enlightened Gurus (and I know a couple) should NOT have sex with somone not their wife, should not LIE, should not come on to women. No Guru should have sex with children or young girls. Stress or Peace It seems to cause me stress. The belief itself has put me in positions where I was betrayed because I had placed a teacher on a pedestal. I made him all right and listened to him instead of myself. If he said my thoughts were all ego (and his weren't), I believed him. (Because if I believed spiritual teachers must be honest, that how could they not be?) What do I get out of it? I get to hold on to my past, where I was betrayed and used by a spiritual teacher (not the present one, he didn't do anything to me). I get to be mad at the people who supported my 1st teacher (though he recently “fell” from “grace”-and what I knew all along became obvious to the rest of the stupid jerks who kept him on a pedestal). (I get to call them stupid jerks). I get to keep looking for the perfect teacher. I get to define the perfect teacher. I get to stay hostile and angry and scorning. I get to be suspicious. I get to be disappointed. I get to live in fear. I get to hold myself separate from people who are following gurus that I think are full of sh... I get to feel sad and lonely because I can’t tell them what I really think and feel - because I figure it is none of my business to burst their bubble - they won’t believe me - or they seem to be getting a lot out of it .... that’s cool with me .... but I hate all this stupid starry-eyed adulation they give to someone outside of themselves: their Guru. I hate how they idolize a mere man - or woman - who I know has done “mortal” things - lied and been dishonest. I hate how they VINDICATE every stupid wrong dishonest harmful hurtful act of their guru - I hate the separation it causes - because I am afraid to confront them with my real thoughts and feelings -- afraid to be disliked, judged, cast out, -- because the one time I did confront everyone in my (old) group with what I saw -- everyone told me it was my ego -- I was wrong. I got left alone. I left the group and did not feel supported and they continued to support that particular teacher (who recently, years later, was exposed, ha! at last!). WWIBWOT? I would be trusting myself. I would go into my own heart to find what is true for me. I would see that others, in any form, are only guides. They are not gifts of God greater than myself. I would not look outside for the final answer. I would look inside. I would not expect SpT to be honest. They might be, or they might not be, and I would not be surprised no matter what, I would not shut down if I found out they were lying - I would open further, to make room even for that in my space. I wouldn't have this concept about Enlightened Spiritual Teachers, and so I wouldn't have a concept to get broken, so my heart wouldn't get broken either. I would place my trust in me, not in someone else. I would never have given another person that much power, and so I would not have given away parts of myself. I would keep me for me. I would not give me to someone else. I would never have placed myself in a position to be " used " by a Sp T, because I would have been awake, aware, alert. I would have laughed at certain things said to me by Sp T. I wouldn't have taken so long to get out. I would see myself as equal to anyone else. I would notice the special gifts someone else may have, even a Sp.T. - maybe they do have a gift of healing - I could still believe there are saints in the world, as I define saints, and I could enjoy the aroma of their Grace in that moment, in the moment - and then let the moment go into the next - I could be really really present. I could stop being so obsessed with whether a SP T is honest. I could find the place within me that IS (is enlightened) - I could be forgiving and compassionate with myself - for the silly stupid mistakes I make, the things I wish I hadn't said - because I wouldn't be placing such high expectations upon myself - that I should always be honest and say and do everything the " right " way. I would really understand the concept of “The Guru is Within,” or " God dwells within.” I would see that God within all others. That God would be shining and light, always. I would be faced with my own Light always. I would be blinded by the light, but not oblivious to the clouds. I would not be stupid and naive. I would be aware enough to take shelter in a storm, not stand outside like a stupid jerk and let myself get cold and wet, waiting for someone to tell me it is okay to come inside and get warm and dry. Now, these words which came to me long ago, which I have pondered over the years, come to me again, “Blind faith is very cruel. Cruelty pours from the eyes of a disciple with blind faith.” And the meaning of these words for me penetrates - blind belief of thoughts without investigation is very cruel. Believing in my thoughts without investigation is very cruel. Believing in the words of others without taking care of myself, without going within to find my TRUE experience - this is all cruel to me. Because then I am not taking care of me. I have lost contact with my inner self. I have let myself be outer-directed. I have placed someone on a pedestal and by so doing, I have placed myself below: I have created the ultimate separation. THE ONLY ONE I CAN LISTEN TO IS ME!!! THE ONLY ONE I EVER HEAR IS ME!!!!! BECAUSE - there is ONLY MY experience. Everything is filtered through MY consciousness. I heard someone (who seems to be an accepted (dead) sage (I admire his words tremendously) - I heard him (on video) say - he believed what his Guru told him -(and that is how he came to know his true nature). My hearing told me what he meant was that he believed what his outer Guru had told him. My hearing told me that if I also believed an outer Guru with complete devotion, no questions, if I could be so dedicated as that - then I could achieve this same state - and my thinking told me it was not possible for me to achieve this state - because I never have, never could have such one-pointed devotion to have this belief in another person. So, something was wrong with me. This is a basic belief that follows: something is wrong with me because I see other people following a Guru consistently, no matter what - and I don’t - when that Guru fails to meet my standards of honesty, I leave. I feel confused and sad, but I do leave. And my first teaching, deeply ingrained in me, was that I should follow a Guru no matter what, drink his stupid bathwater for god’s sake, and if I didn’t, IT WAS ALL ME. If he chose to break the law, to fu-- with girls or women or anyone, it was of course fu----- tantra, or I could not understand the greater workings of an enlightened being. I have believed deep down in the cracks and crevices of my mind, that they were right. I was wrong. On the other hand, I haven’t believed that. Now, my hearing tells me what the guru mentioned above really was saying - he believed his inner Guru - he followed his inner voice - because what else can we really follow? I am always following MY concept of what I believe someone said - my experience of their words. Spiritual teachers who claim enlightenment should be honest TA Spiritual teachers who claim enlightenment should not be honest ----maybe I am “supposed” to now agree with this, having said all of the above. That is what I “think” I am supposed to do. When I believe this, I get confused, but when I believe they should be honest, and they aren’t, I also get confused. So....this takes me to....... I should be honest Yes, I should be honestly who I am. Have I been???? No!!!!!!!!!! I have kept secrets (about Gurus). I have felt ashamed. I have not known what to say, (about their lies or exploits) so I have said nothing. I have not spoken my truth to others. I have been afraid to tell the truth. I believed an “enlightened one” outside of me, even when it was ridiculous, so I could hold onto my concepts. I have felt that I was holding this vast secret. I have wondered how others could stay supporting a teacher or organization when that teacher broke laws that say sex with minors is a crime (and no one else reported this to the cops). I have let my thinking get confused because I haven’t been honest with myself. I have let my sadness grow out of proportion. I have felt helpless and powerless--that I cannot say what happened, even when it did happen. I have not been honest with my own feelings and thoughts. I should be honest at least with myself. I should find out what I think and feel, who I am. Even now, I find myself afraid to post this in “public” because the “secret” has been with me so long. What secret? Anything I think I wasn’t allowed to talk about. Or something bad would happen. People won’t like me. I will be saying the emperor wears no clothes. I will be hurting other people. I will be hurting a particular teacher.......something bad will happen to me. .........this takes me to......... TA I, myself get to determine if a spiritual teacher who claims enlightenment is honest according to my OWN perceptions. I must not depend upon anyone else’s perceptions. I must not blindly believe anyone. I get to determine who I want for a spiritual teacher. I get to determine what is true for me. I get to follow teachers who live up to my standards. I get to set my own standards that work for me. I get to make good choices about the spiritual teachers I choose (as opposed to staying with a teacher who confuses me). I get to say no when I choose. other people get to make their own choices about their teachers. I get to tell the truth. I get to find out my truth. I can speak my truth. I get to follow teachers who live up to my standards of morality. I get to not follow teachers who do not follow my rules. THIS feels freeing to me. This feels “adult” - as opposed to starry-eyed wonder. With this, I feel free and good. I am not confused. I am not in other people’s business. I am taking care of myself. I am going within to find out who I am and what I feel. I should not be honest. I don’t agree with this. I should be honest even when I am not. My thinking should be honest -- yes, this is absolutely true for me. If my thinking was honest, so many problems would just dissolve. The whole question about someone else's honesty just wouldn't be significant. I imagine if my thinking were completely honest...... but as I was writing this, something else came to me. I do not " believe " that i control my thoughts. I think thoughts just arise, like waves on an ocean. Can there be an honest thought? Is " I Am " an honest thought? If I were totally honest, then I would see thoughts as just thoughts. I would not form attachments to thoughts. They would come and go, and I would remain. I would be connected to something deeper than a thought. I would BE that Something. Or that Nothing. And if my thoughts are honest right now? I still do attach to certain thoughts. I still am not completely honest in this attachment. I still get confused. And yet I do feel or experience something deeper, something unexplainable, something vast and knowing, waiting for me to stop looking outside for my validity, waiting patiently, loving, yes, with patient unconditional love - smiling even at me, patient with my stumbling, as a mother is patient with the stumbling of her toddler, knowing the child will one day walk with confidence. This something, this nothing -- this presence - this Presence is why I went to any spiritual teacher at all ever. > > Hi Judy, > > > I like this quote that used: > > " We are not disturbed by what happens to us, but by our thoughts > about > > what > > happens. Nothing external can disturb us. We suffer only when we > want > > things > > to be different from what they are. " -Epictetus > > The old Greeks knew a thing or two... > > From your message, it seems as if a little distance has been created > between you and your beliefs. > > In my experience, that's one of the things that doing The Work > accomplishes, especially when writing it down and sticking to > inquiry. > It makes me aware there is this inquiring being done *and* there is > this belief. > > Staying in inquiry for a while makes me sometimes feel as if I am a > container that may hold this belief, or that belief, and then again > quite another belief. To me, the being of a vessel, of a container > of beliefs and experiences is the essential, enduring, stable and > trustworthy thing in a world in which no experience and no belief is > for ever. In this analogy, the existence of this container allows > inquiry, it allows the realization that what I " really " am is not > attached to this belief, only apparently so. > > Experiences, thoughts, beliefs pass through. > > Realizing there is also this 'thing' they pass through, and that > this 'thing' is closer to me, more intimate, than whatever belief or > experience may be happening at a particular moment, is what IT is > about, for me. > > Looking forward to your inquiry. > > Eva > > > > > > > Quote
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 Dear Silent Center I read your work on " spiritual teachers " and the part that touched me the most was your answer to question 4: I quote a little: " I would be trusting myself. I would go into my own heart to find what is true for me. I would see that others, in any form, are only guides. I would not look outside for the final answer. " and than I realize that in a inverse way this guy was a good " spiritual teacher " in teaching you to trust only yourself. and than I realized that the saying that everyone can be my teacher is so true, if you do the work on the people that upset you so, maybe he was a good " guru/techer " ext but not to what he was preaching to just my toughts Thank you Tami Quote
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 Dear Tami, What you say below mirrors my experience of doing The Work on a former " bad " teacher. This was actually one of the first Work pieces I did ever did, about four years ago, when I was still really angry with her. I discovered there are no " bad teachers; " we learn what we need to in the perfect way, from the perfect " package. " Ultimately there are no teachers either. There is only our story -- period. (When I'm not in an existential guru snit -- which I'm coming out of, thank God -- I know this.) And thank you Judy for your beautiful Work. I love that you didn't read any of the threads and that you just asked you. Love, Carol > > Dear Silent Center > > I read your work > on " spiritual teachers " > and the part that touched me the most > was your answer to question 4: > > I quote a little: > > " > I would be trusting myself. > I would go into my own heart to find what is true for me. > I would see that others, in any form, are only guides. > I would not look outside for the final answer. > " > > and than I realize > that in a inverse way > this guy was a good " spiritual teacher " > in teaching you to trust only yourself. > > and than I realized > that the saying that everyone can be my teacher > is so true, if you do the work > on the people that upset you > > so, maybe > he was a good " guru/techer " ext > > but not to what he was preaching to > > just my toughts > > Thank you > > Tami Quote
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2004 Report Posted December 21, 2004 Dear Judy, (this may not be where you are, at this time) .... > First of all, as far as I'm concerned (and I'm not) can get all > the facelifts she doesn't find a reason to say no to. (Although it must > also possible to look inside if someone asks you to get a facelift and > say, " I couldn't find a reason why. " Hmm. As possible as to say, " I > couldn't find a reason why not. " (This take interests me). The thought I have here is that it depends on the question. If you are asked: " Do you want a facelift? " , you go inside, and say yes/no. If you are asked to get a facelift, you look for a reason not to. .... > Spiritual teachers (Gurus) who claim enlightenment should be honest. > > They should not say one thing and do another, unless they are honest > about it. They should not sexually approach women (or girls) (or > anyone) who come to them to find God, should not abuse power and > authority, causing harm and confusion. They should not use fancy > spiritual rhetoric to vindicate or explain their behavior. They should > always tell the truth. > > IIT > Spiritual teachers who claim enlightenment should be honest? All people should be honest. Nope, didn't work. So, not everybody should be honest, only *spiritual* teachers should be honest. Didn't work either. So let's try: " All spiritual teachers who claim enlightenment should be honest " - And I hear that did not work either. So let *this* spiritual teacher who claims enlightenemnt be honest! Can you relate to that? And I hope for you he will deny *everything*. > Yes, I believe they should operate from a basic integrity. > Do I know they should be honest? > How could I know? Well, according to you not all of them are. That's a hint. > If I KNEW there would not be a problem. The problem is the confusion > that results when I believe they should be honest AND they appear not > to be. Well, you KNOW they are not. You *think* they should be. > CIAbsolutelyKnowITrue Spiritual teachers should be honest? > This throws into question the concept of honesty. But yes, I think > their words and actions should match. I think they should conform to > my conception of honesty. Can any Sp.T ever actually conform to my > conception? So far, I know of one (still living) who does - but I > notice this fear in the back of my mind that she might " fall " (from > Grace) - (she's my last hold-out). The men (and a womn or two) have all > failed (except the ones who were dead when I " met " them and remain > pristine in my mind) - but one female saint (and a couple dead ones) > fit all my concepts (so far). > > HDIR? > (My reactions are becoming more mellow, some of these are from the > past)-- I watch for signs of deception. I talk to certain people if I > see signs. I feel sad and bitter if I see any sign of deception. When I > have been deceived, I have felt like my world was falling apart. I have > placed some teachers on a pedestal. That made me starry-eyed and > stupid, ripe to be deceived (either directly or indirectly) because I > made all their actions okay, including sexual (or believed lies, went > into denial.) Any thought of dishonesty in a Sp T. (read Guru) - makes > me feel I have lost my base, nothing is solid or real. I can't trust > anyone. It was all a trick (to get money, get sex, get fame, get power, > get off on, get an easy life, get attention, get followers) - I have > been used, tricked, betrayed. If that teacher is a fake, then all his > (her) teachings are fake. I don't know what to believe. I ask other > people. I feel deeply sad because I can't find Truth. If the spiritual > teacher is not honest, my highest ideals are nothing. I feel > closed-off. I judge other people’s Guru’s according to my perceptions. > I think people with Guru’s are being naive and starry-eyed, putting > someone else above them, buying into the trip. The Guru Trip. I feel > bored. I feel they are stupid. I am superior because I know the truth. > I wait for the downfall of their Guru. I hope they will not be > deceived. I think they should find the truth within. Married men who > call themselves enlightened Gurus (and I know a couple) should NOT have > sex with somone not their wife, should not LIE, should not come on to > women. No Guru should have sex with children or young girls. So this is what your belief system brings with it. > Stress or Peace > It seems to cause me stress. The belief itself has put me in positions > where I was betrayed because I had placed a teacher on a pedestal. I > made him all right and listened to him instead of myself. If he said my > thoughts were all ego (and his weren't), I believed him. (Because if I > believed spiritual teachers must be honest, that how could they not > be?) and it served you at the time. Now you seem to reconsider. > What do I get out of it? > I get to hold on to my past, where I was betrayed and used by a > spiritual teacher (not the present one, he didn't do anything to me). I > get to be mad at the people who supported my 1st teacher (though he > recently “fell” from “grace”-and what I knew all along became obvious > to the rest of the stupid jerks who kept him on a pedestal). (I get to > call them stupid jerks). I get to keep looking for the perfect teacher. > I get to define the perfect teacher. I get to stay hostile and angry > and scorning. I get to be suspicious. I get to be disappointed. I get > to live in fear. I get to hold myself separate from people who are > following gurus that I think are full of sh... I get to feel sad and > lonely because I can’t tell them what I really think and feel - because > I figure it is none of my business to burst their bubble - they won’t > believe me - or they seem to be getting a lot out of it .... that’s > cool with me .... but I hate all this stupid starry-eyed adulation they > give to someone outside of themselves: their Guru. I hate how they > idolize a mere man - or woman - who I know has done “mortal” things - > lied and been dishonest. I hate how they VINDICATE every stupid wrong > dishonest harmful hurtful act of their guru - I hate the separation it > causes - because I am afraid to confront them with my real thoughts and > feelings -- afraid to be disliked, judged, cast out, -- because the one > time I did confront everyone in my (old) group with what I saw -- > everyone told me it was my ego -- I was wrong. I got left alone. I left > the group and did not feel supported and they continued to support that > particular teacher (who recently, years later, was exposed, ha! at > last!). > WWIBWOT? > I would be trusting myself. I would go into my own heart to find what > is true for me. I would see that others, in any form, are only guides. > They are not gifts of God greater than myself. I would not look outside > for the final answer. I would look inside. Yes, and find what is true for you. Instead of worshipping their truth. > I would not expect SpT to be > honest. They might be, or they might not be, and I would not be > surprised no matter what, I would not shut down if I found out they > were lying - I would open further, to make room even for that in my > space. I wouldn't have this concept about Enlightened Spiritual > Teachers, and so I wouldn't have a concept to get broken, so my heart > wouldn't get broken either. I would place my trust in me, not in > someone else. I would never have given another person that much power, > and so I would not have given away parts of myself. I would keep me for > me. I would not give me to someone else. I would never have placed > myself in a position to be " used " by a Sp T, because I would have been > awake, aware, alert. I would have laughed at certain things said to me > by Sp T. I wouldn't have taken so long to get out. I would see myself > as equal to anyone else. I would notice the special gifts someone else > may have, even a Sp.T. - maybe they do have a gift of healing - I could > still believe there are saints in the world, as I define saints, and I > could enjoy the aroma of their Grace in that moment, in the moment - > and then let the moment go into the next - I could be really really > present. I could stop being so obsessed with whether a SP T is honest. > I could find the place within me that IS (is enlightened) - I could be > forgiving and compassionate with myself - for the silly stupid mistakes > I make, the things I wish I hadn't said - because I wouldn't be placing > such high expectations upon myself - that I should always be honest and > say and do everything the " right " way. I would really understand the > concept of “The Guru is Within,” or > " God dwells within.” I would see that God within all others. That God > would be shining and light, always. I would be faced with my own Light > always. I would be blinded by the light, but not oblivious to the > clouds. I would not be stupid and naive. I would be aware enough to > take shelter in a storm, not stand outside like a stupid jerk and let > myself get cold and wet, waiting for someone to tell me it is okay to > come inside and get warm and dry. > > Now, these words which came to me long ago, which I have pondered over > the years, come to me again, “Blind faith is very cruel. Cruelty pours > from the eyes of a disciple with blind faith.” > > And the meaning of these words for me penetrates - blind belief of > thoughts without investigation is very cruel. Believing in my thoughts > without investigation is very cruel. Believing in the words of others > without taking care of myself, without going within to find my TRUE > experience - this is all cruel to me. Because then I am not taking care > of me. I have lost contact with my inner self. I have let myself be > outer-directed. I have placed someone on a pedestal and by so doing, I > have placed myself below: I have created the ultimate separation. > > THE ONLY ONE I CAN LISTEN TO IS ME!!! THE ONLY ONE I EVER HEAR IS > ME!!!!! Yes! And this is what you always were telling you: He is a guru, what he says is *the* truth. I have to believe him. I have to trust him. > BECAUSE - there is ONLY MY experience. Everything is filtered through > MY consciousness. > > I heard someone (who seems to be an accepted (dead) sage (I admire his > words tremendously) - I heard him (on video) say - he believed what his > Guru told him -(and that is how he came to know his true nature). > > My hearing told me what he meant was that he believed what his outer > Guru had told him. My hearing told me that if I also believed an outer > Guru with complete devotion, no questions, if I could be so dedicated > as that - then I could achieve this same state - and my thinking told > me it was not possible for me to achieve this state - because I never > have, never could have such one-pointed devotion to have this belief in > another person. So, something was wrong with me. > > This is a basic belief that follows: something is wrong with me because > I see other people following a Guru consistently, no matter what - and > I don’t - when that Guru fails to meet my standards of honesty, I > leave. I feel confused and sad, but I do leave. And my first teaching, > deeply ingrained in me, was that I should follow a Guru no matter what, > drink his stupid bathwater for god’s sake, and if I didn’t, IT WAS ALL > ME. If he chose to break the law, to fu-- with girls or women or > anyone, it was of course fu----- tantra, or I could not understand the > greater workings of an enlightened being. I have believed deep down in > the cracks and crevices of my mind, that they were right. I was wrong. > On the other hand, I haven’t believed that. > > Now, my hearing tells me what the guru mentioned above really was > saying - he believed his inner Guru - he followed his inner voice - > because what else can we really follow? I am always following MY > concept of what I believe someone said - my experience of their words. > > Spiritual teachers who claim enlightenment should be honest > TA > > Spiritual teachers who claim enlightenment should not be honest And this is what you experience, isn't it? > ----maybe I am “supposed” to now agree with this, I don't think you are supposed to agree with it. You have never, and everyone is doing fine. > having said all of the above. That is what I “think” I am supposed to > do. When I believe > this, I get confused, but when I believe they should be honest, and > they aren’t, I also get confused. > So....this takes me to....... > > > I should be honest You should be honest about " spiritual teachers should be honest. " > Yes, I should be honestly who I am. > > Have I been???? > > No!!!!!!!!!! I have kept secrets (about Gurus). I have felt ashamed. I > have not known what to say, (about their lies or exploits) so I have > said nothing. I have not spoken my truth to others. I have been afraid > to tell the truth. I believed an “enlightened one” outside of me, even > when it was ridiculous, so I could hold onto my concepts. I have felt > that I was holding this vast secret. I have wondered how others could > stay supporting a teacher or organization when that teacher broke laws > that say sex with minors is a crime (and no one else reported this to > the cops). I have let my thinking get confused because I haven’t been > honest with myself. I have let my sadness grow out of proportion. I > have felt helpless and powerless--that I cannot say what happened, even > when it did happen. I have not been honest with my own feelings and > thoughts. I should be honest at least with myself. And you expect it to be so easy for them. > I should find out > what I think and feel, who I am. Even now, I find myself afraid to post > this in “public” because the “secret” has been with me so long. What > secret? Anything I think I wasn’t allowed to talk about. Or something > bad would happen. People won’t like me. I will be saying the emperor > wears no clothes. I will be hurting other people. I will be hurting a > particular teacher.......something bad will happen to me. > > ........this takes me to......... > TA > I, myself get to determine if a spiritual teacher who claims > enlightenment is honest according to my OWN perceptions. > > I must not depend upon anyone else’s perceptions. I must not blindly > believe anyone. > > I get to determine who I want for a spiritual teacher. I get to > determine what is true for me. I get to follow teachers who live up to > my standards. I get to set my own standards that work for me. I get to > make good choices about the spiritual teachers I choose (as opposed to > staying with a teacher who confuses me). I get to say no when I choose. > other people get to make their own choices about their teachers. I get > to tell the truth. I get to find out my truth. I can speak my truth. I > get to follow teachers who live up to my standards of morality. I get > to not follow teachers who do not follow my rules. THIS feels freeing > to me. This feels “adult” - as opposed to starry-eyed wonder. With > this, I feel free and good. I am not confused. I am not in other > people’s business. I am taking care of myself. I am going within to > find out who I am and what I feel. > > I should not be honest. > I don’t agree with this. I should be honest even when I am not. I don't know if exchanging both, the person and the action is still a simple turnaround, or if it is of help. > My thinking should be honest -- yes, this is absolutely true for me. If > my thinking was honest, so many problems would just dissolve. The whole > question about someone else's honesty just wouldn't be significant. I > imagine if my thinking were completely honest...... > > but as I was writing this, something else came to me. I do not > " believe " that i control my thoughts. I think thoughts just arise, like > waves on an ocean. > > Can there be an honest thought? > > Is " I Am " an honest thought? I don't think you can apply honesty to thoughts. " honest " is a concept itself. > If I were totally honest, then I would see thoughts as just thoughts. I > would not form attachments to thoughts. They would come and go, and I > would remain. I would be connected to something deeper than a thought. > I would BE that Something. Or that Nothing. > > And if my thoughts are honest right now? > > I still do attach to certain thoughts. I still am not completely honest > in this attachment. I still get confused. And yet I do feel or > experience something deeper, something unexplainable, something vast > and knowing, waiting for me to stop looking outside for my validity, > waiting patiently, loving, yes, with patient unconditional love - > smiling even at me, patient with my stumbling, as a mother is patient > with the stumbling of her toddler, knowing the child will one day walk > with confidence. This something, this nothing -- this presence - > > this Presence is why I went to any spiritual teacher at all ever. > Good Luck, alexander Quote
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