RE: Using the work as justification

[Guest guest]

Dear Helen,

I am no therapist...just a friend, mother and wife.... but I do think

that there have been times when I have used *my truth* to justify being

cruel and uncaring...the times when I have been afraid to look at

myself, pointed the finger at the other and asked him to change for my

comfort...By not checking in with my heart first I believe that I have

alienated and hurt ....I cringe to think of it.....I am now truly sorry

for my lack of integrity .....*.I don't know* is my favorite spot

now!....love,nne

Helen Triggs wrote:

> Dear all

>

> I wrote: I am absolutely convinced that the Work is there to justify

> being cruel in

> >the name of truth or honesty!

>

> What I actually meant to write that I am convinced that the Work is

> NOT there to justify being cruel in the name of truth and honesty.

>

> !!!!

>

> Cruel, truth, honesty - just labels I guess.

>

> Eddie wrote: Eddie's two cents,

> I find that when I say something with the intention of bringing someone's

> attention to a blind spot that they may be struggling with, I don't

> feel any

> regret.

>

> Eddie how do you know it's a blind spot? I don't mean to ask this

> aggressively and am not firing a Workie 'Is it true they have a blind

> spot?' response at you. I would be interested to know how you define

> it is OK and when it isn't. I feel it is harder to tell people what I

> think than before in some ways as I am conscious that my judgement is

> my opinion and quite likely not to be based on truth. So I feel

> impeded from speaking what (I think) is my truth.

>

> Is it possible to give advice from a 'don't know' place? Any thoughts

> from any other therapists on the list?

>

> Love

> helen

>

> Wow, had just finished writing this and scrolled onto Mona's mail " You

> can only see what you believe -- nothing else is possible. " -bk

> Thanks Mona - right on time!

> Glad you're back, even briefly

> Where's April?

> Helen

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Helen,

Just a Freudian slip, we understand. I believe there are more ways to be

cruel than just being direct. At least I'm honest about my feelings--some

" victim stories " curl my " devil's tail. "

But I think I do try to present what I see in a blunt way--maybe I just need

to mind my own business and trust that the " victims " of the work (my

Freudian slip, I meant to say " world " ) will figure it out for themselves.

Thanks for pointing out my blind spot.

Eddie

>

>Reply-To: Loving-what-is

>To: <Loving-what-is >

>Subject: Using the work as justification

>Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:46:03 -0000

>

>Dear all

>

>I wrote: I am absolutely convinced that the Work is there to justify being

>cruel in

> >the name of truth or honesty!

>

>What I actually meant to write that I am convinced that the Work is NOT

>there to justify being cruel in the name of truth and honesty.

>

>!!!!

>

>Cruel, truth, honesty - just labels I guess.

>

>Eddie wrote: Eddie's two cents,

>I find that when I say something with the intention of bringing someone's

>attention to a blind spot that they may be struggling with, I don't feel

>any

>regret.

>

>Eddie how do you know it's a blind spot? I don't mean to ask this

>aggressively and am not firing a Workie 'Is it true they have a blind

>spot?' response at you. I would be interested to know how you define it is

>OK and when it isn't. I feel it is harder to tell people what I think than

>before in some ways as I am conscious that my judgement is my opinion and

>quite likely not to be based on truth. So I feel impeded from speaking

>what (I think) is my truth.

>

>Is it possible to give advice from a 'don't know' place? Any thoughts from

>any other therapists on the list?

>

>Love

>helen

>

>Wow, had just finished writing this and scrolled onto Mona's mail " You can

>only see what you believe -- nothing else is possible. " -bk

>Thanks Mona - right on time!

>Glad you're back, even briefly

>Where's April?

>Helen

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

marianne, thanks for showing me some of mywork:

It is possible for me to hurt and alienate others with what I say to them.

Is it true? I feel that it is often true - is it true? I often guess that it is

true by interpreting other people's reactions - is it true? I've been taught

that it is true (I should be careful about what I say to others, I am

insensitive, I am selfish, I shouldnt say things that will " hurt someone elses

feelings " ....etc.)

Can you absolutely know that it is true that your words hurt other people's

feelings? Can you ever really know what is going on with another person - even

if they tell you? No, and I don't feel it yet. I still think that I am

responsible - sometimes people appear hurt or angered by stuff that appears to

come out of my mouth...lots of story here, lets stick to inquiry....can I ever

know what or why anyone is feeling what they feel? NO...okay.

How do you feel/react when you beleive the story that you can hurt other's by

what you say to them? How do you treat yourself/others?

Aaauuuuggghhhhh....I feel all tight in the chest and throat area, I feel like I

have to censore myself, my words, my feelings, I feel like it is a dangerous

thing to be myself in the world, never know when something might pop out and

hurt someone else, I feel that I must not allow myself to be spontaneous,

passionate, or angry - these are difficult states to control - even excited...to

say what I really think seems like a risky thing...I feel sad and tired and lost

- lonely. I restrict who I spend time with, I limit myself and try to stay safe,

i don't participate as fully in life as I'd sometimes like to, I have an image

of a 'good' person that I try to live up to and always seem to fall short of,

then I get angry and resentful or depressed....I feel hopeless....I reinforce

the story that if I just let loose and let it all hang out all hell would break

loose, I must really be bad under neath it all (yeah, lots of material here to

work on

I'm not authentic, I treat others like they cant be trusted to deal with the

truth. I walk on eggshells when I'm around some people, I try to act

'appropriate' and say the 'right' things...nothing about our interaction feels

real or satisfying, it stays close to the surface and I feel an empty feeling in

my stomach. I try to be what I imagine would be considered 'nice' although I

have no idea what that word means. Sometimes I have the thought 'whew, made it

through another interaction and they still seem to be my friend,...so far so

good!' something like that anyway. It feels like I'm acting and I don't like

it much.

Who would you be without the thought that you could/do hurt and alienate others

with your words?

I have the thought I'd be laughing alot more, less guarded, willing to look

foolish and insensitive, willing to be myself, spontaneous, unguarded, willing

to allow otheres to have their own reactions to me without trying to manipulate

them, not trying to 'protect' someone else's feelings, offering the only thing I

really have to offer, the truth of who I am in the moment whether they like it

or not, I think I wouldnt feel so lonely (cause I wouldn't be abandoning myself

- my integrity/i'd be staying in my business...yeah) I would allow people to

come and go in my life with ease rather than pretending to be something

'special' so that they'll stick around for awhile, maybe i'd like being around

some people much more since i'd feel free to just be myself in their presence

and i'd just be curious about them and myself....

Can I see a stress free reason to keep the story? no....it causes me lots of

stress to have to be the Guardian of the words that come spilling out of this

mouth.....

TA: My words do not alienate and hurt others.

My THINKING alienates and hurt others and myself (sometimes) - this hits

home for me.

or is it My attachment to my story alienates and hurts (if I didnt beleive my

thoughts then I wouldnt think they were hurting/alienating others, and perhaps I

also would talk so much.....hhhmmm.)

I need to sit with this for awhile - comments welcome...

nne Wille wrote:

Dear Helen,

I am no therapist...just a friend, mother and wife.... but I do think

that there have been times when I have used *my truth* to justify being

cruel and uncaring...the times when I have been afraid to look at

myself, pointed the finger at the other and asked him to change for my

comfort...By not checking in with my heart first I believe that I have

alienated and hurt ....I cringe to think of it.....I am now truly sorry

for my lack of integrity .....*.I don't know* is my favorite spot

now!....love,nne

Helen Triggs wrote:

> Dear all

>

> I wrote: I am absolutely convinced that the Work is there to justify

> being cruel in

> >the name of truth or honesty!

>

> What I actually meant to write that I am convinced that the Work is

> NOT there to justify being cruel in the name of truth and honesty.

>

> !!!!

>

> Cruel, truth, honesty - just labels I guess.

>

> Eddie wrote: Eddie's two cents,

> I find that when I say something with the intention of bringing someone's

> attention to a blind spot that they may be struggling with, I don't

> feel any

> regret.

>

> Eddie how do you know it's a blind spot? I don't mean to ask this

> aggressively and am not firing a Workie 'Is it true they have a blind

> spot?' response at you. I would be interested to know how you define

> it is OK and when it isn't. I feel it is harder to tell people what I

> think than before in some ways as I am conscious that my judgement is

> my opinion and quite likely not to be based on truth. So I feel

> impeded from speaking what (I think) is my truth.

>

> Is it possible to give advice from a 'don't know' place? Any thoughts

> from any other therapists on the list?

>

> Love

> helen

>

> Wow, had just finished writing this and scrolled onto Mona's mail " You

> can only see what you believe -- nothing else is possible. " -bk

> Thanks Mona - right on time!

> Glad you're back, even briefly

> Where's April?

> Helen

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

thank you so much for posting this work, and for doing it so

honestly. i saw my own feelings of guardedness and inauthenticity in

your work, but i would never have connected it with the belief that

it's possible to hurt others. i would have thought it to be about

fearing rejection from others, but i can feel the truth of what you

wrote for me...

warmly,

susan

> marianne, thanks for showing me some of mywork:

>

> It is possible for me to hurt and alienate others with what I say

to them.

>

> Is it true? I feel that it is often true - is it true? I often

guess that it is true by interpreting other people's reactions - is

it true? I've been taught that it is true (I should be careful about

what I say to others, I am insensitive, I am selfish, I shouldnt say

things that will " hurt someone elses feelings " ....etc.)

>

> Can you absolutely know that it is true that your words hurt other

people's feelings? Can you ever really know what is going on with

another person - even if they tell you? No, and I don't feel it

yet. I still think that I am responsible - sometimes people appear

hurt or angered by stuff that appears to come out of my mouth...lots

of story here, lets stick to inquiry....can I ever know what or why

anyone is feeling what they feel? NO...okay.

>

> How do you feel/react when you beleive the story that you can hurt

other's by what you say to them? How do you treat yourself/others?

>

> Aaauuuuggghhhhh....I feel all tight in the chest and throat area,

I feel like I have to censore myself, my words, my feelings, I feel

like it is a dangerous thing to be myself in the world, never know

when something might pop out and hurt someone else, I feel that I

must not allow myself to be spontaneous, passionate, or angry - these

are difficult states to control - even excited...to say what I really

think seems like a risky thing...I feel sad and tired and lost -

lonely. I restrict who I spend time with, I limit myself and try to

stay safe, i don't participate as fully in life as I'd sometimes like

to, I have an image of a 'good' person that I try to live up to and

always seem to fall short of, then I get angry and resentful or

depressed....I feel hopeless....I reinforce the story that if I just

let loose and let it all hang out all hell would break loose, I must

really be bad under neath it all (yeah, lots of material here to work

on

>

> I'm not authentic, I treat others like they cant be trusted to deal

with the truth. I walk on eggshells when I'm around some people, I

try to act 'appropriate' and say the 'right' things...nothing about

our interaction feels real or satisfying, it stays close to the

surface and I feel an empty feeling in my stomach. I try to be what

I imagine would be considered 'nice' although I have no idea what

that word means. Sometimes I have the thought 'whew, made it through

another interaction and they still seem to be my friend,...so far so

good!' something like that anyway. It feels like I'm acting and I

don't like it much.

>

> Who would you be without the thought that you could/do hurt and

alienate others with your words?

>

> I have the thought I'd be laughing alot more, less guarded, willing

to look foolish and insensitive, willing to be myself, spontaneous,

unguarded, willing to allow otheres to have their own reactions to me

without trying to manipulate them, not trying to 'protect' someone

else's feelings, offering the only thing I really have to offer, the

truth of who I am in the moment whether they like it or not, I think

I wouldnt feel so lonely (cause I wouldn't be abandoning myself - my

integrity/i'd be staying in my business...yeah) I would allow people

to come and go in my life with ease rather than pretending to be

something 'special' so that they'll stick around for awhile, maybe

i'd like being around some people much more since i'd feel free to

just be myself in their presence and i'd just be curious about them

and myself....

>

> Can I see a stress free reason to keep the story? no....it causes

me lots of stress to have to be the Guardian of the words that come

spilling out of this mouth.....

>

> TA: My words do not alienate and hurt others.

>

> My THINKING alienates and hurt others and myself

(sometimes) - this hits home for me.

>

> or is it My attachment to my story alienates and hurts (if I didnt

beleive my thoughts then I wouldnt think they were hurting/alienating

others, and perhaps I also would talk so much.....hhhmmm.)

>

> I need to sit with this for awhile - comments welcome...

>