Re: Re: Odds of mold toxicity symptoms being "reversible" ROBERT

[Guest guest]

Barb,

You make a good point. My thought on this is that if the mold is still present

and I move it into a " clean " envirenment One of two things will happen. 1. The

mold will die because the needed envirenment is not present for it to grow

meaning when I touch it or disturb it it will send out it's mycotoxins. 2. it

will find a new food sourse and begin to grow again. either way if I am to move

to a clean envirenment " the smartest thing to do is not to rock the boat so to

speak. " I could give you all the examples you need to prove my point but I am

deciding not to elaborate to much just because I am in the middle of a lawsuit

myself. Not that I would incriminate myself in anyway but I don't want to give

the other side any more information that my attorney wants to give them as far

as information.

My main point is that I by no means have all the answers nor do I think I am

an expert in anyway. This would be stupid for me to claim so. But my point is

that since we don't have all the answers we have to depend on the others here

and their experiences in order to make good decisions that will help us with our

health, regardless of what the legal side of it says. I will leave it with this

statement. I am a firm believer at this point that it is NOT a wise decision to

take anything from a contaminated home to a clean one. I cannot sress that

enough. This is based on the fact that my contaminated home was pretty bad.

Maybe the answer lies in how contaminated ones home is and how bad it was

airborne. How bad were the belongings contaminated.

Now that I am saying that I believe that could be the key answer. My situation

could have been worse that ones who discovered mold and got out. Mine was a

little different where I was involved in attempting to remidiate the premises.

During this process all hell broke loose. If you find out you have mold and get

out before anything is done this might hold some hope for health and

belongings????

Ok so to and the rest of you maybe we meed to become scientists and put

all factors together for each situation as I am sure each one is different in

many ways, therefore I say these discussions may be more worthwhile than I

originally thought when I wrote mu last post. There are so many different

factors I suppose we must concider that before we (I) fire off with a post.

Chris...

bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

..but you are saying they came back

positive for stachy and aspergillus but those are

molds, not toxins. did say he feels the

spores are the problem and it is easier to see

that since they are living things that can come

to live with a little food and water. I think

that is what lends to so much confusiong in

discussions like this as I have said before.

Some people are talking about mold spores, some

toxins, some objects (like ), some our

bodies (like Live Simply) and these are not the

same at all.

Life is a balance of holding on and letting go...

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I am completely lost as to where this is all going. In your last post it looked

like in one sentence you are saying the same thing I did which is not to take

things from a contaminated home to a clean one, then in the next you say that I

need to have proof from some peers (whatever that is suppose to mean) and that I

am wrong.

It sounds to me like you have a good deal of knowledge and you write very well

but I am still confused at what point you are trying to make. As far as I am

concerned I don't need scientific evidence, peer acceptance or anything else to

tell me what I am experiencing and going through to make me believe it. The

proof is plain as the day in long. Yes I want to back it all up with gaining

knowledge about what is happening and am doing so but that does not change my

" proof " one bit. There is still the same " substances " that were in the

contaminated home on my things, mind you the test were done on items that were

cleaned and sealed, I have not yet tested the stuff that has not been cleaned

which I am sure will be much worse (that is an assumption of course)

The bottom line is since these same contaminants, mold or toxins whichever are

still on my belongings. I have been tested and shown to be susceptible to bio

toxin poisoning so I don't need a group of peers to tell me how stupid it would

be to take these things with me and take the risk of starting this whole process

over again.

One saying always comes to mind. The definition of insanity is doing the same

thing over and over and expecting different results. I may be uneducated but I

am neither insane nor stupid.

Chris...

Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

Barb,

Once the trichothecene mycotoxins are formed, their stability does not

depend on the existence of spores or the mold that produced them.

Neither does it depend on the presence of water or any other solvent.

Solvents can only *decrease* the stability of the diluted substance,

not the other way round. Without any solvent, the stability of these

toxins is unaffected. Very rarely does it happen that some chemical

compound must be kept in a certain solvent in order preserve its

stability.

Nowhere in the scientific literature will you find that the stability

of a biotoxin depends on the further presence of the organism that

produced it. Think about the penicillin antibiotic (mycotoxin). It's

separated from the fungus that produced it, and although penicillin is

not considered to be markedly stable, it can exists for years when

kept in a dark place. The same thing goes for the yeast that converts

sugar into alcohol (its mycotoxin). That yeast is called Saccharomyces

cerevisiae. Alcohol is stable once it's separated from this yeast.

I don't think you'll find " peer reviewed " studies about the stability

of the trichothecene toxins on objects from mold infested buildings

any time soon, for obvious reasons.

Despite that, in scientific literature it is stated time and again

that these toxins are " markedly stable under various conditions " . I'll

give two more excerpts. You decide what to think about it. I know from

personal experience that they are *very* stable on common objects -

without mold and without moisture. Anegdotal evidence? Perhaps, but if

I waited for scientific evidence, I would probably just die.

http://193.132.193.215/eman2/fsheet8.asp

-----------------------

All trichothecenes containing an ester group are hydrolysed to their

respective parent alcohols when treated with alkali. A dilute solution

of potassium carbonate, sodium hydroxide or ammonium hydroxide

hydrolyses T-2 toxin and neosolaniol to T-2 tetraol and diacetoxy- and

monoacetoxy- scirpenol to scirpentriol. Many of the alcohols are

unaffected, even by hot dilute alkali. Trichothecenes are thus

chemically stable and can persist for long periods once formed.

Prolonged boiling in water or under highly acidic conditions causes a

skeletal rearrangement due to opening of the epoxide ring. Owing to

the hindered nature of the epoxide and stability of the ring system,

reactions of the trichothecenes usually proceed in a manner

predictable from sound chemical principles, e.g. primary and secondary

hydroxyl groups are easily oxidised to the aldehyde and ketone

derivatives by reagents such as CrO3-H2SO4 in acetone, CrO3-pyridine

and CrO3-acetic acid.

--------------------------------------

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/cwbw/Ch34.pdf

--------------------------------------

The trichothecenes are a very large family of

chemically related toxins produced by various species

of Fusarium, Myrotecium, Trichoderma, Cephalosporium,

Verticimonosporium, and Stachybotrys.4 They are markedly stable under

different environmental conditions. The distinguishing chemical

feature of trichothecenes is the presence of a

trichothecene ring, which contains an olefinic bond

at C-9, 10; and an epoxide group at C-12, 12.5 All

trichothecenes are mycotoxins, but not all mycotoxins

are trichothecenes. This family of mycotoxins

causes multiorgan effects including emesis and diarrhea,

weight loss, nervous disorders, cardiovascular

alterations, immunodepression, hemostatic

derangements, skin toxicity, decreased reproductive

capacity, and bone marrow damage.4,6

---------------------------------------

-Branislav

>

> Branislav,

> I'm not condoning taking contaminated objects

> from one place to another. However, study posted

> was about T-2 toxins in aqueous solution, or

> water and then dissolved in other solutions and

> applied as a film on objects...nothing to say

> this is immitated in nature. Study could have

> been trying to figure out how to apply toxins to

> have them stick to things for warfare or how an

> enemy might do that and how long it's affects

> would have to be dealt with. This does not mean

> this would happen in our homes or that toxins do

> exist separately from the mold spore for very

> long. However antidotal evidence seems to imply

> that from people in this group who are sensitive

> to it, so it may be true but I would not consider

> this scientific evidence that taking an object

> from home to another home would contain T-2

> toxins *separately* from mold spores. Still

> said tools tested positive for mold spores,

> not toxins without mold spores.

>

Life is a balance of holding on and letting go...

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Branislav,

I was just getting ready to write you back. It took me a few times of reading

your post then I finally figured out what was going on and understood your post.

Clearly I felt a little foolish.

As far as the allergy testing goes i had that done and of course it was all

negative showing no allergies to (and it states) no molds, pet dander foods etc.

Although these test were done a couple of years ago before living in the

contaminated home. I would be curious as to if the results would be the same now

which brings up the ultimate question. Was my DNA changed by exposure or was it

always in my genetic makeup? If so why was the test for mold prior to exposure

negative????

As far as what test were done, I had a group of test. One was for MSH, one for

VEGF, something about C3a inflammation??? Leptin etc. The DNA sheet really does

not give me a name but has a bunch of codes like DRB1, HLA-DQ, DRB4 on and on.

One thing that might be a name of the test says Antidiuretic hormone profile,

Osmolality?? I don't know if that is the test or just another test. The doctors

notes have a bunch of equations using the above codes and then says " susceptible

to bio toxins.

I do have an appointment with Dr. Shoemaker coming up in December and I have

learned there are these and several more test that will be done. But the doctor

that did these first test does follow Shoemakers protocol she just does not do

all the testing that he does.

Trying to explain this stuff to a doctor who has no knowledge has gotten me

comments like " delusions of parasites " and all kinds of other hilarious things

so good luck with that. I got to a point to where I took The readout about MSH

from Dr. Shoemakers paperwork he sent me and his books to the doctor with me and

said he was welcome to read them if there was any doubt about my claims. That

stopped the nasty comments real fast. I would be happy to send you a copy of the

MSH fact sheet if you would like. There is not to much to argue with when you

have that in hand, but it does help to know before hand if yours is low or not.

Once again I apolagize for my not reading your post enough times to understand

what was going on. I don't blame it on the devil any more it's the mold... The

devils dinner. LOL Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Chris...

Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

>

> I am completely lost as to where this is all going. In your last

>post it looked like in one sentence you are saying the same thing I

>did which is not to take things from a contaminated home to a clean

>one, then in the next you say that I need to have proof from some

>peers (whatever that is suppose to mean) and that I am wrong.

No no, Chris. You didn't read my messages carefully

I didn't say you needed to have proof of any peers. In my recent

postings I tried to substantiate your observations with the existing

scientific studies. In other words, I agree with you.

I first responded to the messages that Christ

(antares41_41@... antares40_40) posted, in which he

expressed his doubt that residual mycotoxins on objects can pose such

a great risk as some of us claim, and thinks they are subject to

relatively quick decomposition after having been separated from the

living mold. He also states there are no " peer reviewed " studies which

would prove the contrary. I oppose to this view, because my experience

also tells me that mycotoxins can be very stable under normal

conditions, without living mold that produced them.

My second message (from today, in response to Barb's message) doesn't

contradict my yesterday's message. I am saying the same thing -

mycotoxins are stable on objects under various environmental

conditions. They are also very hard to wash, especially from porous

substances. I have found that only strong hydrogen peroxide can

denature them or decrease their potency.

> The bottom line is since these same contaminants, mold or toxins

>whichever are still on my belongings. I have been tested and shown to

>be susceptible to bio toxin poisoning so I don't need a group of >peers

This is interesting. Can you tell me what tests you did that

established you are susceptible to biotoxin posonining (Dr.

Shoemaker's tests or some other tests?). I am supposed to be going to

the allergist tomorrow, and am still thinking hard how to explain to

him this messy situation with cross-contamination. I'm afraid he'll

look at me as if I told him I saw the aliens. I can't do Dr.

Shoemaker's tests before I go through the 'classic' allergy tests

(which will be a waste of time for sure, unless I persuade him to do

Dr. S's tests along the classic ones).

-Branislav

Life is a balance of holding on and letting go...

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I hate to laugh but how many times have I heard the same comments? Cause you

know the phyc will give you some of those wondrous synthetic pills that will

screw you up in yet another way. Makes sense to me Ha ha. You being in Europe

should I would think give you a small edge over us here. The UK has more

documentation than any American sight I have seen yet.

I can't be sending my personal results around at the moment because i am about

to go into a legal case over the issue so I am sure that would not be prudent of

me. (Using that word is weird, my exs name is Prudence) I will sent you

Shoemakers MSH fact sheets, it is only two pages but is an eye opener and his

protocol of tests. Talk nice to your PC doctor you might be surprised. I was. I

have one here that admittedly says he refers allot of mold patients out because

he does not know anything about it but he is willing to learn with the proper

paperwork from an actual doctor. I learned early they don't like when patients

bring a bunch of internet material in because they don't treat patience based on

say a sick buildings post. But in this little ol southern town it is surprising

to him and myself that there are as many people that do come in out of the blue

complaining of mold. So he is willing to learn. That is a big step as far as I

am concerned considering comments like

your allergist told you. But it was the MSH fact sheets that got him

interested. Me as well. If that does not spark their interest move on to the

next one because clearly that one thinks they already know it all. I am

fascinated to see a doctor look at something and actually watch the wheels start

turning and then they look at you as if to say, hmmm that makes sense. Give it a

shot.

Chris...

Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

> As far as what test were done, I had a group of test. One was for

>MSH, one for VEGF, something about C3a inflammation??? Leptin etc.

>The DNA sheet really does not give me a name but has a bunch of codes

>like DRB1, HLA-DQ, DRB4 on and on. One thing that might be a name of

>the test says Antidiuretic hormone profile, Osmolality?? I don't know

>if that is the test or just another test. The doctors notes have a

>bunch of equations using the above codes and then says " susceptible

>to bio toxins.

> I do have an appointment with Dr. Shoemaker coming up in December

and I have learned there are these and several more test that will be

done. But the doctor that did these first test does follow Shoemakers

protocol she just does not do all the testing that he does.

> Trying to explain this stuff to a doctor who has no knowledge has

>gotten me comments like " delusions of parasites " and all kinds of

>other hilarious things so good luck with that. I got to a point to

>where I took The readout about MSH from Dr. Shoemakers paperwork he

>sent me and his books to the doctor with me and said he was welcome

>to read them if there was any doubt about my claims. That stopped the

>nasty comments real fast. I would be happy to send you a copy of the

>MSH fact sheet if you would like. There is not to much to argue with

>when you have that in hand, but it does help to know before hand if

>yours is low or not.

The problem is, I live in Europe. Therefore I can't just make an

appointment with Dr. Shoemaker. I phoned his secreatary and she told

me that I must have my doctor here (in my country) who would serve as

the mediator between me and Dr. Shoemaker.

Another problem is that, of course, it's hard to find such a doctor.

Perhaps my GP doctor will be willing to coopearate, but if she refuses

I just don't know what to do. Furthermore, although many doctors do

know some English, many don't, so I will have to translate huge

amounts of texts that pertain to toxic molds so that they'll

understand what I'm talking about. Imagine translating Mold Warriors

from English into some other language when you're exhausted by mold

and " attacked " almost every day by some mycotoxin-contaminated object!

I went today to the allergist.. and of course tested negative to all

their mold samples (prick test). When I mentioned her mycotoxins and

toxic molds she became irritated and told me that I was " obviously

fixated on this problem " and that toxins are not her branch of

expertise... so she advised me to go to .. " specialist for

occupational medicine " (something I'm sure won't help me, so I won't

go) and later psychiatrist (something I am absolutely convinced won't

help me). Later she told me the mold samples were predominatntly from

Aspergillus niger, but probably without any toxins, made just to

trigger possible allergy. I don't think Aspergillus' toxins are the

ones I'm sensitive to, especially not in the allergy way of

sensitivity. The toxins from Fusarium, Stachy, Trichoderma are much

more likely to be the culprit.

So things look pretty grim for me. On the face of it, I just need some

sympathetic doctor that would be willing to give up his/her ego a bit

and agree to be the mediator between me and Dr. Shoemaker. But in

reality, it's almost impossible to find such a doctor.

If you don't regard it as secret, please send me by email your results

that you mentioned (MSH, VEGF, C3a, HLA-DR, leptin etc.). Do you have

them scanned so that they can be sent by email? (my email is:

arealis@...)

Then I could print that out and show to my GP doctor and say something

like: " Look, here are the results of one of mold sensitive people.

Can you help me do these same tests, so I can get the proof whether

I'm mold sensitve as well? " . I can erase your name on the printed copy

if you want.

> Once again I apolagize for my not reading your post enough times

>to understand what was going on. I don't blame it on the devil any

>more it's the mold... The devils dinner. LOL Sorry, couldn't resist >it.

Nah, everything is ok

-Branislav

Life is a balance of holding on and letting go...

---------------------------------

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