RE: RDI prepublication data and ABA- long and cross posted

[Guest guest]

and group,

I have not read Gutstein but the discussion reminds me of Greenspan. These

techniques can be integrated into a child's home therapy program based on the

needs of the child just like the various teaching approaches that we call

ABA,academics and practicing a variety of communication methods, social and play

skills.

If most school districts and social service agency budgets were not pretty

much cut to the bone, I think experienced professionals would view RDI as more

tools to work with in kid's programs. Competition for scarce dollars is making

autism treatment even more difficult than it has been in the past.

, Colin P's mom

, Colin P's mom

[ ] RDI prepublication data and ABA- long and cross posted

I ahve read Dr. Gutstein's books, viewed the video and believe that the

social framework may be a helpful adjunct to ABA based inerventions. This is

particularly true since there is limited resources for social skills

training written for these programs. The goals framework is particularly

helpful. We have begun to use some of these techniques with our daughter,

However, I am troubled after reading the " prepublication research " . Here are

my concerns:

1) This data is retrospective and nonrandomized. This can result in multiple

errors, most obviously selection bias. This being the case it is interesting

data, but, does not rise to the level of data required for the conclusions

reached by the author(s).

2) There are substantial differences in the pre-treatment groups. For

instance, twice as many children with the diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome

in the RDI group. The mean ages are different and there is no information

regarding what interventions these children have already had. The children's

previous cognitive evaluations are used and it is unclear when these were

administered in relation to the onset of RDI.

3) The ADOS is a diagnostic tool. The other outcome marker of educational

placement is more useful. However, I would be interested to know what

supports if any are provided for these children in the regular education

setting or if they are included without need for support.

4) Because the tools/techniques for this are not widely available and in

fact many are trademarked to limit their use, this research does not allow

for replication by other researchers of this experience. This is the widely

recognized standard for most scientific research - in other words, if this

data cannot be replicated by another group of researchers it is not valid.

As a parent who has spent countless hours with my child involved in her ABA

program, I am concerned this " prepublication research " will be used to deny

many children much needed behavioral intervention. Dr. Gutstein's own

writings suggest the use of behavioral interventions to teach imitation and

compliance skills prior to RDI since many of the activites described require

them. In this paper, he repeatedly makes reference to how much better the

RDI children do than those engaged in behavioral intervention.

He is clearly taking a big swing at ABA based interventions. Specifically,

these children did better, it is cheaper, requires less time, does nto

require therapists, but should be done by parents at home. I am sure there

are many school districts out there ready to raise this banner high. We

actually home school our daughter so thankfully I don't think much about

this anymore. I said this in previous discussions on the list and been told

by those who have been to training at the connections center it is not

true - BUT much of this paper reads to me like " IF these parents did a

better job socially interacting with their children they would be well. We

just have to teach these inept parent how. "

I would welcome others thoughts and recommend you read this .

ELizabeth

[Guest guest]

As a parent, I really wish professionals would stop trying to claim their

way is the only way. Why does everyone want to prove they are " better "

than the others?

We need to work TOGETHER to find the best possible COMBINATIONS of therapies

for our kids. If there were one " best " way, all of our kids would be

" cured " , right?

At Mariposa, we follow the VB curriculum and are seeing tremendous results

with all of our kids. But I want to emphasize that we also support our

families who are doing other treatments in addition to VB. Many of our kids

get occupational therapy, speech services, and biomedical treatments.

Children are complex, with a variety of needs, and to say that one thing,

and one thing only is going to help them is, in my mind, a very simplistic

view.

We will be co-sponsoring an RDI workshop in Raleigh, NC on Feb. 21-22. I

will be the first to admit that I don't know very much about RDI -- that's

why we are bringing Dr. Gutstein in to present his conference. My hope is

that we will learn something new that we can ADD to our kids' programs to

make them even more successful than they are right now.

I posted information about the RDI conference on several of these lists a

few days ago. I hope to get the info on our website shortly. In the

meantime, if anybody is interested in attending and can't find the

information, please email or call me at the number listed below and we will

get it to you. (Apparently roadrunner has been doing us the " favor " of

blocking some emails coming in as " spam " , so please call if your email

bounces back!)

s (Cary, NC)

persistentC@... <mailto:persistentC@...>

President and Executive Director

The Mariposa School for Children with Autism

www.MariposaSchool.org <http://www.MariposaSchool.org>

919-461-0600

Re: [ ] RDI prepublication data and ABA- long and cross

posted

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Dear List:

I also do not know a great deal about RDI, but from what I read, I have to

agree with others who have posted on this.

We have done ABA with our daughter for over 6 1/2 yrs, and as recently as

last year were fighting our school district who tried to get rid of our

program.

I am all for learning about new things that will help my daughter, but I am

also fearful when I read these claims about RDI and other programs when they

seem to be saying that they are better than ABA. I find that somewhat hard

to

believe when I know my child's deficits and know how much she has learned

due

to ABA. School districts want to go the cheapest & easiest route possible,

even when it means not really doing the child any good. I know this for a

fact.

Even though our daughter is still very much autistic, without intensive ABA

over these past several years, I know that she would not have made any of

the

progress that she has made.

Jill Plato

Kane, IL

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[Guest guest]

" Why does everyone want to prove they are " better "

than the others? "

Usually when these guys bash an existing theory, they are given more

attention. For most people, especially non-autistic individuals, attention

from others is strongly paired with tangible reinforcement (money, praise,

etc...) From a Skinnerian perspective, then, the answer is clear: this

type of response is common because it is reliably reinforced by the verbal

community. This is not to discount RDI, just an explanation of the above

behavior.

Bart

Re: [ ] RDI prepublication data and ABA- long and cross

posted

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Responsibility for posts to this list lies entirely with the original

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Dear List:

I also do not know a great deal about RDI, but from what I read, I have to

agree with others who have posted on this.

We have done ABA with our daughter for over 6 1/2 yrs, and as recently as

last year were fighting our school district who tried to get rid of our

program.

I am all for learning about new things that will help my daughter, but I am

also fearful when I read these claims about RDI and other programs when they

seem to be saying that they are better than ABA. I find that somewhat hard

to

believe when I know my child's deficits and know how much she has learned

due

to ABA. School districts want to go the cheapest & easiest route possible,

even when it means not really doing the child any good. I know this for a

fact.

Even though our daughter is still very much autistic, without intensive ABA

over these past several years, I know that she would not have made any of

the

progress that she has made.

Jill Plato

Kane, IL

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This list is for discussion of ABA and related matters. Posts dealing with

unrelated topics (diet, SI, other " cures " etc) should be directed to the

VENT

list or other lists dedicated to those topics. Such posts will NOT be

forwarded

to the me-list.

Collections of ME-List files (Username is prive; Password is george):

http://people.sca.uqam.ca/~sqa/prive/

ME-list website: currently being updated

To signoff, send SIGNOFF ME-LIST to LISTSERV@...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

a very happy new year to you all..

I wanted to find out if there are any trained RDI professionals here in the

Bay Area( San /Sunnyvale and neighboring). I am implying " genuine " RDI

professional who underwent training from Dr. Gustein or from one of his

associates.

Kindly let us know ASAP.

best regards

sunil

>From: " persistentC " Reply- " Discrete-trial (ABA) interventions for

>autism and related disorders " , " " Subject: RE: [ ] RDI

>prepublication data and ABA- long and cross posted Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003

>10:04:33 -0500

>

>As a parent, I really wish professionals would stop trying to claim their

>way is the only way. Why does everyone want to prove they are " better "

>than the others?

>

>We need to work TOGETHER to find the best possible COMBINATIONS of

>therapies for our kids. If there were one " best " way, all of our kids

>would be " cured " , right?

>

>At Mariposa, we follow the VB curriculum and are seeing tremendous results

>with all of our kids. But I want to emphasize that we also support our

>families who are doing other treatments in addition to VB. Many of our

>kids get occupational therapy, speech services, and biomedical treatments.

>Children are complex, with a variety of needs, and to say that one thing,

>and one thing only is going to help them is, in my mind, a very simplistic

>view.

>

>We will be co-sponsoring an RDI workshop in Raleigh, NC on Feb. 21-22. I

>will be the first to admit that I don't know very much about RDI -- that's

>why we are bringing Dr. Gutstein in to present his conference. My hope is

>that we will learn something new that we can ADD to our kids' programs to

>make them even more successful than they are right now.

>

>I posted information about the RDI conference on several of these lists a

>few days ago. I hope to get the info on our website shortly. In the

>meantime, if anybody is interested in attending and can't find the

>information, please email or call me at the number listed below and we will

>get it to you. (Apparently roadrunner has been doing us the " favor " of

>blocking some emails coming in as " spam " , so please call if your email

>bounces back!)

>

> s (Cary, NC) persistentC@... President and Executive

>Director The Mariposa School for Children with Autism

>www.MariposaSchool.org 919-461-0600

>

>

> Re: [ ] RDI prepublication data

>and ABA- long and cross posted

>

>

>****** This is a confidential, unmoderated list. ****** Responsibility for

>posts to this list lies entirely with the original author.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>---

>

>Dear List:

>

>I also do not know a great deal about RDI, but from what I read, I have to

>agree with others who have posted on this.

>

>We have done ABA with our daughter for over 6 1/2 yrs, and as recently as

>last year were fighting our school district who tried to get rid of our

>program. I am all for learning about new things that will help my daughter,

>but I am also fearful when I read these claims about RDI and other programs

>when they seem to be saying that they are better than ABA. I find that

>somewhat hard to believe when I know my child's deficits and know how much

>she has learned due to ABA. School districts want to go the cheapest &

>easiest route possible, even when it means not really doing the child any

>good. I know this for a fact.

>

>Even though our daughter is still very much autistic, without intensive ABA

>over these past several years, I know that she would not have made any of

>the progress that she has made.

>

>Jill Plato Kane, IL

>

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------

>This list is for discussion of ABA and related matters. Posts dealing with

>unrelated topics (diet, SI, other " cures " etc) should be directed to the

>VENT list or other lists dedicated to those topics. Such posts will NOT be

>forwarded to the me-list. Collections of ME-List files (Username is prive;

>Password is george): http://people.sca.uqam.ca/~sqa/prive/ ME-list website:

>currently being updated To signoff, send SIGNOFF ME-LIST to

>LISTSERV@...

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

>