Re: Disteachia... was stupid question time

April 23, 2003

Bravo for your response, e!

It is nice to hear from somebody who recognizes that some things are just

REALLY difficult for these kids. I firmly believe that in Kenny's case,

trying to teach him to use sign language would have led to greater

frustration than was necessary.

s (Cary, NC)

persistentC@...

President, The Mariposa School for Children with Autism

www.MariposaSchool.org

919-461-0600

[VerbalBehavior] stupid question time

Kenzie can say almost any one word not good pronunciation by any means.

He can, IF, he wants to. So mands work out ok but what about anything

else.

We will have been doing ABA four years next month and we're still on

receptive/expressive object labels. I figure by the time I'm sixty he

might

know that a duck is an animal and it quacks. Sorry, still in that funk.

Anyhow, I don't mean to sound stupid or insensitive here but how do those

of

you that have completely non-verbal kids do verbal behavior? Do you have

to

teach your child to sign everything? Kenze has an ok receptive language

but

you can tell that with a motor planning problem that he prefer not to use

words because they are difficult for him to retrieve. And yet, he babbles

all day long. Loves to hear the sound of his voice. I got this little

epiphany today. I realized that I base all of Kenzie's progress and

success

on his ability to use language, as in the spoke! n word. Well at almost

seven maybe that's not going to happen. I swear I've based everything on

that. So when you don't have that, what do you do? What is your program?

What is your success? Please don't tell me to teach him sign. He can't

even hold a pencil. The frustrating part is he can say words but how am I

ever going to really teach him without them?

Sorry I've had a bad day and two beers and I'm not sure I made sense.

Please forgive me if I sounded like an idiot.

Penny

April 24, 2003

In my son's experience, habilities can change. I think this is the

difference between pure ABA and VB; the last takes in account cognitive

habilities and folows tha child development.

As my 9 years old found very difficult to communicate oraly, and didn't

imitate signs at the begining, we started with PCS in PECS methodology. I

wanted him to develope intellectually and give him the posibility to

understand his sorrounding. I didn't close his ways, but the priority was

communication, interaction and thinking. My son is 9 years old (we begun

very late in this mehtodology as it was me who decided that he was autist

and he was in a wrong direction with his training) and now he is signinig in

four and five words sentences, we can follow a conversation with many

interactions, he discusses, fights verbally, pplans for future and tells

about past events, he is able to solve written problems by himself, he buys,

and is able to follow a direction immidiatelly. AND, he is starting to

speak. I don't want for him an oral boy, but a child who is able to function

in his society, understand it and cappable to interact. He is able to use a

lot of tools to communicate (mimics, written words, drawings, oral, signs)

and makes him understand. I'm sorry, I didn't priorisize how good he made a

few sentences, but how good he was able to know what was going on and put in

order his thoughts.

Yes, each one needs an individual teaching methodology, each one has his own

posibilities, but it seems that they can reach same goals by different

roads.

na

> Message: 4

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:43:41 -0400

> From: e Quinby <e@...>

> Subject: Disteachia... was " stupid question time "

>

> I picked up on one of your comments, ¡ÈI know there are many people out

> there who would say,

> the fault was in our teaching,¡É and just wanted to make a

clarification.

>

> I know that Dr. Carbone has used the term ¡Èdisteachia¡É to

describe many

> problems that children on the spectrum acquire as a result of poor

teaching

> techniques. He is correct that we need to look at our teaching before we

> say ¡Èthe child can¡Çt learn¡É. We also need to recognize

that all

children

> are individuals with individual strengths and needs. After we have ruled

> out our teaching methods, we CAN and SHOULD look at other factors

including

> the student¡Çs ability.

>

> The best teacher in the world could not teach me how to paint like Monet

> because I don¡Çt have the artistic ability :0)

>

> e Quinby

>

> Behavior Consultant

>

> www.autismbehaviorconsult.com

>

April 25, 2003

Hi e,

I would like to present an excerpt from " Behavior Modification:

What It Is and How To Do It " (Garry , 1999, pages

11-12)…early on in the book you'll probably note, that

addresses this

very issue.

" Because of the emphasis on the environment, behaviorists are

often accused of denying the importance of genetics in determining

behavior. This mistaken impression may stem in part from the

writings of B. (1913), who, dissatisfied with the

introspective psychology of his day, argued that the correct subject

matter of psychology was observable behavior and only observable

behavior. also advocated an extreme form of environmentalism,

summarized in the following famous (or infamous) claim:

Give me a dozen healthy infants, well-formed, and my own specified

world to bring them up in and I'll guarantee to take any one at

random and train him to become any type of specialist I might select

doctor, lawyer, artist, merchant-chief, and, yes, even beggarman and

thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities,

vocations, and race of his ancestors. (, 1930, p. 104)

However, Skinner (1974) pointed out that himself admitted that

this claim was exaggerated, and he did not disregard the importance

of genetics. An appreciation by behavior modifiers of the importance

of genetics was indicated by the publication of a miniseries on

behavioral genetics in the journal Behavior Therapy (1986, Vol. 17,

No. 4). Included in the miniseries were articles on cardiovascular

stress and genetics, childhood obesity and genetics, smoking and

genetics, and alcoholism and genetics (also see , Cardon, &

Hewitt, 1995) However, even though the influence of heredity may

increase the susceptibility of an individual to certain behavioral

problems, such as obesity or alcoholism, an individual's

environment still plays a major role in the development and

maintenance of behaviors that lead to such problems. "

Regarding your post, I'm not quite sure what your

" clarification " is, but I thought I would pose some thoughts

on

the " Dysteachia " debate. First of all, why call it

dysteachia?

Well, let's break that down: From Stedman's Medical

Dictionary: " Dys-

" Greek prefix meaning bad or difficult. Within the medical

community it is typically translated as " difficulty. "

" Dis- " Latin

prefix meaning an impairment or defect. So far, so good since both

have the same general meaning; though " dys- " is a much more

common

prefix within the medical world, e.g., dyspraxia. Onward to

Webster's Dictionary: " Teach, " 1. to impart knowledge or

skill to:

Instruct. Back to Stedman's: " -ia " Latin and Greek suffix

meaning

1. Disease: pathological condition. Within the medical community it

is typically translated as simply " condition of. " Now that

we have

the parts squared away, let's put it all together (Start at the

end):

Condition of instruction difficulty. Okay, now we've been

through

Medical Terminology 101 and we're all on the same page.

So now what? I can't help but recall an incident in which I

was sent to traffic school for a ticket (Yes, I do occasionally

break a driving law). After the 30 or so people who received

tickets arrived to make their amends, the instructor rather

informally asked by what means each of us happened to be there that

day (I had been coming off a highway off-ramp too fast, just in case

you were wondering). Some of the people were in fairly serious

accidents, some people were speeding, one rolled through a stop sign,

etc. He then asked the group how many people in the room thought

they were excellent drivers (Excellent meaning 9-10 on a scale of

10). About 25 people raised their hands. He calmly asked his next

question: " How many think you are above average drivers? " Now

4 people raised their hands to denote themselves as 7-8 ranked

drivers. That left one more person. " How many think you are

average drivers? " That one person raised her hand and that

person was I. Well, everyone in that room looked at me indignantly

and superciliously as though their rank in the world was assured by

their self-description. The instructor paused a moment and with a

painfully extended sigh, he finally breathed out, " Only one of

you thinks you are an average driver? How can that be while all the

other people that you passed on the road this morning are going about

their business and here you sit with me? " A long and heated

debate ensued in which I shall not venture, but my point is: People

like to feel that they are doing it right. People like to think that

they have the answers. People like to keep things the way they are.

The problem is: a lot of times, and probably most times, those people

could do it right (or at least better) if the first thing they did

was look at their own behavior, rather than blaming it on the cop, or

the erratic behavior of other drivers, or the bee that flew in the

window as they rolled it down (I actually heard that one that day),

or (by extension) the child that failed to learn in their classroom

because they were mentally retarded, etc. It doesn't mean that a

person is " bad " (as in morally bad) if they do something

wrong, it

simply means they have learned what not to do and they can now apply

that knowledge in the future so that the same mistakes are not made

again. In our collective case, so that a child may learn more

quickly through our good teaching practices.

Another point: Dysteachia is Dr. Carbone's tongue-in-cheek term

for the conditions/environment in which the child fails to make

significant progress. Administrators and/or school psychologists

often encourage teachers that their teaching is excellent, but that

the problem lies in the child's condition. When administrators

recruit those newly graduated teachers and inculcate them soon enough

into the philosophy that you can't fight City Hall, i.e., that

you can't gain additional services or help because they don't

exist, they believe it and the lives of all the children they

subsequently teach can almost assuredly be less than what is

genetically possible. The teachers mean well, but they don't

know what to do (because most haven't taken a course in ABA), have

been suppressed too greatly to search out effective teaching

techniques, and/or just prefer to follow the example illustrated

above in traffic school. I am simplifying matters, but hopefully I

am illustrating my point, nonetheless.

When you say, " The best teacher in the world could not teach me

how to paint like Monet because I don't have the artistic

ability, " I understand your point, but how can you absolutely say

that is true? What if you had a really amazing and dedicated teacher

when you were little who not only knew theory, but also had an

excellent application of the theory of painting? For we all know

that understanding the theory of something doesn't ensure that

the

application of that theory will flow smoothly. It is a lot easier to

watch someone working skillfully at a table and talk fluently about

what they are doing (theory), but it is another thing entirely to be

at that table and to be the one actually doing the work

(application). At worst, you would be a lot more skilled than you

apparently are now (I am not debating that you are or are not

talented in art, but that it is less a genetic argument than a

teaching argument). Perhaps a more demonstrative example would be:

Not even the best coach could turn me into " a Jordan "

because I don't have the height (though I could be taught to jump

higher than I otherwise would), nor " a Florence Griffith

Joyner " because I don't have the speed (though I could be

taught to

run faster than I otherwise would).

In summary, I am not a martyr, but I will always look at my teaching

skills first when my son fails to make progress. I can't control

what he is genetically, but I can ensure that he meets his full

capacity in life by changing what I do to meet his various needs.

Additionally, I don't think Dr. Carbone believes that every child

can achieve exactly the same skill set in exactly the same amount of

time with exactly the same instructors and methods. I think he does

believe that each child can make the most progress that he or she is

capable of making if the instruction is directed toward that

child's targets in a consistent, skillful, and sequential manner.

It takes a lot of time and thought to do it right. I, for one, still

have a lot to learn.

Best regards,

Tamara

May 2, 2003

Since my family may have been the source of the phrase for Vince (it's often

the video of our poor therapist working under the direction of our previous

" consultant " that Vince uses to illustrate the point)....I just want to say a

few things.

1. The absolute key point Vince makes is summed up in his statement I often

use in my signature to my posts.

" Children with autism are not learning disabled, they are teaching

challenges. " Stop and ponder that for a moment, because it contains an

absolutely brilliant insight. Too often, as parents we say, " He has autism,

he can't do that. " As soon as we think/say that we inhernently are blaming

the student for their lack of progress. (It's invidious, and impacts how we

treat typical students as well, how often do we hear educators blame

sociological conditions for a student's poor progress, rather than devising

methods to make sure the student excels in the classroom) Instead, the key is

to find the teaching method that works for that particular child. I've

watched Vince manipulate literally dozens of variables with Grant in an

effort to find what is most effective for him. That's what good teachers do.

2. When Grant did struggle or regress...guess where the problem was....yep,

in our teaching. Very subtle things that slowly snowballed. Odds are when a

child is noncompliant, it is in the teaching. Probably it's all about the

reinforcement (or lack of it), prompting levels, etc...but that's inherent in

teaching when you use ABA.

3. Always continue to learn yourself.

Mark

Grant's Dad

Short brag: Grant is mainstreamed with a shadow, and for the very first time

today, he raised his hand in response to a question posed by the teacher to

the class at large. She was pleased as punch (thank God for a regular ed

teacher who is buying into what we're doing) and called on him. He came to

the front of the room and gave the correct answer. The class erupted into

applause....and Grant joined in. This on the heels yesterday of answering a

" why " question spontaneously...another first for us.

May 2, 2003

Mark and group,

Congratulations! What grade is Grant in? Colin will " graduate " from 5th

this spring and start middle school in the fall.

, Colin's mom

Re: [ ] Disteachia... was " stupid question time "