Re: Tone of voice

[Guest guest]

Same here. If I don't get complaints about a flat voice, I get complaints about using the wrong tone. For example: sometimes people will say that I sound sarcastic or mean when I didn't intend any emotional content at all in what I said.

In a message dated 4/7/2008 11:37:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

Of all the things I have been criticized for, tone is the one I get it for the most. It does not matter whether I am excited, sad, happy, bored, formal, casual, whatever. It all sounds the same to everyone else even though it all sounds appropriate to me.Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Guest guest]

All three definitions are correct in their particular usages.

Of all the things I have been criticized for, tone is the one I get

it for the most. It does not matter whether I am excited, sad, happy,

bored, formal, casual, whatever. It all sounds the same to everyone

else even though it all sounds appropriate to me.

I attribute this to a deficiency that NTs have. They have an

inability to detect nuance in tone.

Administrator

Tone of voice:

Boy has that been a difficult subject.

I was corrected by a previous roommate (landlord as I call him and

others since I pay them rent as well) about the definition:

Originally it was that I knew the term " Tone of Voice " to mean

literally the change in the tonal sound of the voice such as the

pitch (tone) rising due to lying for example. Plus I included the

volume of the voice as well from when a person (on TV) says they

don't like that tone of voice they are replying to a person who's

tone and volume are changed (deeper/stronger & louder of sorts).

The roommate indicated that what it meant was overall the

emotional " tone " of the speech such as though I may speak in an even

tone the statement had an *emotional* tag to it (not subtext) such

as " condescending " *, or " bad attitude " , or some such thing.

[Guest guest]

Oddly enough a flat toned unemotional voice can be considered an insult or

affront of any imagined sort by the person being spoken to under certain

circumstances!

It was beautifully illustrated in a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode

where a character bumped into an alien one. The character (Wesley) then

apologized ever so nicely and the alien got hostile about the apology.

Then the character talking to the Acadamy instructor said in analysis that

the alien was of a species that reacts badly to politeness! Hmmm, sounds

like a human reaction to me by that alien! Some guys will beat up a person

who is polite! :-)

Randy Garrett

Antioch, CA USA

-----<---{(@

Re: Re: Tone of voice

Same here. If I don't get complaints about a flat voice, I get complaints

about using the wrong tone. For example: sometimes people will say that I

sound sarcastic or mean when I didn't intend any emotional content at all in

what I said.

In a message dated 4/7/2008 11:37:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

no_reply writes:

Of all the things I have been criticized for, tone is the one I get

it for the most. It does not matter whether I am excited, sad, happy,

bored, formal, casual, whatever. It all sounds the same to everyone

else even though it all sounds appropriate to me.

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release Date: 4/7/2008

6:38 PM

[Guest guest]

I remember that one. That particular alien race considered politeness to be a mask for one's feelings. Wesley was saved when his friend stepped in and was aggressive. Seeing what it considered a proper emotional response, the alien became friendly. It was actually a test by Star Fleet Academy to see how well Wesley knew his alien races and how he would handle the situation.

It was beautifully illustrated in a Star Trek: The Next Generation episodewhere a character bumped into an alien one. The character (Wesley) thenapologized ever so nicely and the alien got hostile about the apology.Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Guest guest]

Randolph writes:

> I want to learn Latin as it sounds so precise ...

I have trouble regarding as " precise " a language which doesn't make it

important to differentiate between the meanings of " high " and " deep. "

(In Latin, " altus " means both these things.)

Deeming Latin somehow inherently " precise " may particularly amuse

those who have struggled with the ambiguities and multiple meanings

throughout the works of such Latin writers as Propertius.

Returning to " tone of voice " — do others here (like me) often get

criticized sharply for allegedly uttering " the wrong tone of voice " in

e-mail? I have had both NT people and autistic people tell me that I

somehow used " the wrong tone of voice " even in typing something as

neutral as " Thank you. " (The people who accuse me of " wrong tone of

voice in e-mail " seem to mean something like " When I read your words,

Kate, i hear them in my head as if pronounced in a manner that I

dislike: making it your fault entirely, of course, that I hear your

typewritten words in this particular way. " )

Has anyone else here experienced this?

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

This is acceptable! Good grief. In my business classes we were taught to keep inter office notes short, clear and concise. I would write that:

Tom,

The copier is jammed. Would you try to fix it?

Thank you

If I were head of department and I saw a note like the one you posted, there would be warnings issued. That is completely unprofessional. Just because management there might this that is OK, doesn't mean everyone will. If an employee moves on and tries that elsewhere, they could end up in a lot of trouble, and rightfully so.

In a message dated 4/8/2008 5:04:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

"Hey Tom!

Joe sez the copier is as jammed as a constipated elephants intestines. Could you please give it an enema!

Thank U."Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Guest guest]

Kate said:

"Returning to "tone of voice" — do others here (like me) often getcriticized sharply for allegedly uttering "the wrong tone of voice" ine-mail?"

Tom replies:

Happens to me all the time. The more I quote facts to elucidate my points, the more people accuse me of having a weak argument that cannot stand on its own. They accuse me of trying to ram "'silly ideas" down their throat, but they will not look at my supporting facts and so will not see that my "silly ideas" are stong ones with roots in studies and research. Meantime, they refuse to see the weakness of their own arguments.

I also get criticized for endeavoring to avoid what I call "The New Inter-Office Memo Ettiquette" which can be described as the use of an obligatory casual and joking tone in even formal circumstances. I have seen inter-office memos in a business setting that run along these lines:

"Hey Tom!

Joe sez the copier is as jammed as a constipated elephants intestines. Could you please give it an enema!

Thank U."

-Am I supposed to ignore the "Hey" when I know it should read "Hello"?

-Am I supposed to think the scatological reference is funny?

-Am I suppose to ignore the "little things" that are wrong in the e-mail, such as the deliberate mispellings of the words "says" and "you"?

-Am I supposed to ignore the incorrect word choice? ("Could" instead of the more correct "Would.")

-Am I supposed to ignore the missing apostrophe in "elephants"?

-Am I supposed to ignore the overuse of exclamation points and the incorrect use of the exclamation point in the last sentence?

I guess I AM, because if I return the e-mail this way...

"You said:

"Hey Tom!

Joe says the copier is as jammed as a constipated elephant's intestines. Could you please give it an enema?

Thank You."

Tom replies:

"I would be pleased to."

Then I get a subseqent e-mail that looks like this:

"Yo! Lighten up, Miss Manners! And thanks for taking care of the copier!"

Kate said:

"I have had both NT people and autistic people tell me that Isomehow used "the wrong tone of voice" even in typing something as neutral as "Thank you." (The people who accuse me of "wrong tone of voice in e-mail" seem to mean something like "When I read your words, Kate, i hear them in my head as if pronounced in a manner that I dislike: making it your fault entirely, of course, that I hear your typewritten words in this particular way.")

"Has anyone else here experienced this?

Tom replies:

There have been times in the past, Kate, where I think the tone of your "voice" has been a problem, but it is less "tone" specifically than asking for clarification of the validity of facts when a simple internet search on your part would prove the validity of those facts. During those times it seemed like you were being deliberately obtuse just to annoy people.

You have not done that in a year or more though.

But answering your question more directly: Yes, I have been accused of being nasty in e-mails even when I felt I was being very polite. Ill-will has been seen in my e-mails where none was intended.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

— do others here (like me) often get> criticized sharply for allegedly uttering "the wrong tone of voice" in> e-mail?

> Kate Gladstone

Most definitely! Advocating for my son, I recently sent a teacher an email and he did not respond to it. I went into the school and asked why he did not respond. He looked at me and said, "I didn't know how to respond to THAT type of email." I couldn't read the look on his face or what he meant by that statement.

Well, the main issue addressed in my mail was that my son needed to retake a quiz. After a week the teacher still would not answer my question. I forwarded the email('s) to the principal and asked what was wrong about the way I wrote them and she told me my letter was direct and there was nothing wrong with it. So, I guess some people just take things the wrong way.

Please pardon my disorganized thoughts in the following mailings, I was very harried that day. A side note, because the retake was not admistered in a timely fashion, the pricipal said the quiz (which he failed) was supposed to be deleted from his grades but the grade is still posted as is.

This is what the correspondence contained:

To me from the teacher

Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:53:08 PMSubject: Quiz Chapter 7 Wind in the Willows Feb 27Read Chapter 7, be prepared for a fact-based quiz

From me to the teacher, 1st email

Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:06:00 AMSubject: Re: Quiz Chapter 7 Wind in the Willows Feb 27

Mr. (*****),

When (my son) left school early on Friday he was very sick and tried to take home what he needed. This quiz was something he did not know about so he did not bring home his book.

We knew he needed the book but it is my fault for not picking it up when I and (my daughter) got his classwork/homework together on Monday and Tuesday. I have asked him to speak to you about this but am sending this email as a backup. Can he make up this quiz later this week? He tells me that at recess the Library will be unavailable, so perhaps he could use Mrs. (****) office to take the quiz before next Monday.

Thank you,

Kim

My 2nd email to the teacher

Mr. (*****),

I am not sure if you read my previous email before (my son) spoke to you today before the quiz. I want him to be able to retake this quiz. First, when I said in the post below that we knew he need the book it was because I read your email reminder not because (my son) heard you announce the quiz in class. You have in the past and perhaps did on Friday come to the homeroom class to remind the children about something. Regardless of whether the quiz was announced in class, in which case 's fever of 102 was a factor or you came to the class at the end of the day, (My son's) lack of having the book to read was not his fault. I take full responsibility for not going to get the book myself and forgetting.

I am disappointed by your reaction to (my son's) question posed to you today. You made him a promise during our meeting to aknowledge his questions and I do not believe a stern look is an appropriate reponse. Furthermore, Mrs. (*****) has offered the use of her office many times and I think that even if you do not have the time to administer the quiz, she would be able to do this.

Let me know of your decision on whether you will or won't let (my son) retake this quiz.

Thank you,

Kim

[Guest guest]

I can see how that would be annoying to say the least. It is one reason why I don't bother, aside from being on this site and a couple of others. The other reason is I'm not really expecting to be around that much longer, so it is hard to get worked up about it.

I'm sick and tired of busting my butt for Autistics who are not very different than their NT relations and who are happy to whine, "But I don't want to get involved."Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Guest guest]

" Most definitely! Advocating for my son, I recently sent a teacher an

email and he did not respond to it. I went into the school and asked

why he did not respond. He looked at me and said, " I didn't know how to

respond to THAT type of email. "

Personally, I find nothing wrong with the e-mails you provided. I don't

see what the problem is with them, or why anyone else would have a

problem with them.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Kim wrote: " ... <snip> ... Advocating for my son, I recently sent a

teacher an email and he did not respond to it. I went into the

school and asked why he did not respond. He looked at me and

said, " I didn't know how to respond to THAT type of email. " I

couldn't read the look on his face or what he meant by that

statement ... <snip> ... "

Well, Kim, as much as I hate to say it, the school will fault you for

advocating on behalf of your son.

I was told earlier today in mediation a number of distasteful things,

not the least of which was that I should be happy with the pitiful

effort made by the other side to resolve the problem that was being

discussed.

Want to know where advocacy gets you? Because hardly any ASPIES ever

advocate for themselves much less others with Autism Spectrum

Disorders, it puts those of us who DO advocate on the chopping block

as " trouble makers " and the group(s) that oppose our voices will then

put serious effort into chopping your head off completely.

That's where advocacy gets you.

And that's why I get fed up defending Autistics when they won't speak

up for themselves.

Raven

Co-Administrator

[Guest guest]

" And that's why I get fed up defending Autistics when they won't speak

up for themselves. "

I second that notion.

Raven and I recently went to an autism convention recently where we

had the benefit of meeting some children and adults with Asperger

Syndrome. The sense I got from the parents of these children and

adults was that they had developed a culture of co-dependency with

their children be they young or grown.

The adult children seemed to be fine with their situation and seemed

upset if their cushy little co-dependent lives were near to the point

of being shattered. In other words, at the suggestion of getting a

job, or taking their artistic or creative talents to a higher, more

profitable level, they bristled, more or less explaining that they

were happy the way things were.

Well, you cannot effectively motivate people like that who are stuck

only securing and caring for their own situations. So looks like it's

up to the few of us who are higher on the spectrum to do anything for

them.

That in itself is a mixed bag because the second you start advocating

for people, THEN they want to have their say. They don't give a damn

what you are doing as long as you leave them out of it. but if you

start saying things that jeopardize their unhealthy co-dependency,

THEN they have something to say.

People who are not autistic are many times prejudiced against

autistics, and I have seen bullying of AS adults take place by NT

adults.

It's really all the result of autistics wanting to be in their own

little world and not take action for themselves. It makes the jobs of

the bullies easier to know they only have to kick the few who stand

up for themselves that a whole multitude.

Sometimes being an advocate is very depressing.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

> Sometimes being an advocate is very depressing.

>

>

> Administrator

I am sorry it is but I think people will always be opposed to the truth.

Many of our greatest thinkers and astronomers had their views scoffed at

and ridiculed yet the truth prevailed.

Kim

[Guest guest]

>

> It's really all the result of autistics wanting to be in their own

> little world and not take action for themselves. It makes the jobs of

> the bullies easier to know they only have to kick the few who stand

> up for themselves that a whole multitude.

>

> Sometimes being an advocate is very depressing.

>

>

> Administrator

>

This was my case before Ravi was diagnosed, I had already decided to

live in my own world. I am independant or really I was a co-dependant

adult in bad relationships where I hoped the other would support me. I

had to get off my keester to help Ravi, that in turn helped me to

rejoin humanity, and push myself to go back to school to be fiancially

solid for his sake. It has beeeeeeen hhhhhaaaaarrrrddddddd! no

really and somewhat painful. Trial by fire, the funny thing is it

has been rewarding, it has given me confidence, raised my personal bar,

forced me to make a serious effort (something that was stilted around 5

onward) It is an enormous trial, but I really admire Tom, Raven, Donna

, and really everyone that gets up and says no to half-lives.

(i can't name everyone on this board that does that; it will look like

a bible chapter) you get the idea. Hey thanks for bringing us the info

to change. mimi

[Guest guest]

>

> It's really all the result of autistics wanting to be in their own

> little world and not take action for themselves. It makes the jobs of

> the bullies easier to know they only have to kick the few who stand

> up for themselves that a whole multitude.

>

> Sometimes being an advocate is very depressing.

>

>

> Administrator

>

This was my case before Ravi was diagnosed, I had already decided to

live in my own world. I am independant or really I was a co-dependant

adult in bad relationships where I hoped the other would support me. I

had to get off my keester to help Ravi, that in turn helped me to

rejoin humanity, and push myself to go back to school to be fiancially

solid for his sake. It has beeeeeeen hhhhhaaaaarrrrddddddd! no

really and somewhat painful. Trial by fire, the funny thing is it

has been rewarding, it has given me confidence, raised my personal bar,

forced me to make a serious effort (something that was stilted around 5

onward) It is an enormous trial, but I really admire Tom, Raven, Donna

, and really everyone that gets up and says no to half-lives.

(i can't name everyone on this board that does that; it will look like

a bible chapter) you get the idea. Hey thanks for bringing us the info

to change. mimi

[Guest guest]

This goes back to the time of Socrates. He was killed for other reasons, but one reason for his murder was that he supported Aristotle's belief in logic and applying it to the world. Part of that was a different world view than the prevailing one supported by Plato (Basically Plato believed everything in the world to be a reflection of a perfect example in another world and the earth was the center of the universe). But he questioned this and also made the Athenian men look stupid when they took him to trial, so they killed him.

Most other scientists who have come up with new ideas have faced rejection and hostility. I think most of that has to do with the egos of the scientists. They don't want their pet theories to be proven wrong, so they fight tooth and nail to beat down new ideas that might show them to be wrong. There are even a few amusing cases from the last 100 years or so of scientists clinging to their theories after they have undeniably been proven wrong.

Still somehow we manage to move on, slowly and in fits and starts.

PS: A little bit about the trial of Socrates from Wiki.

According to Plato's Apology, Socrates' life as the "gadfly" of Athens began when his friend Chaerephon asked the oracle at Delphi if anyone was wiser than Socrates; the Oracle responded that none was wiser. Socrates believed that what the Oracle had said was a riddle, because he believed that he possessed no wisdom whatsoever. He proceeded to test the riddle through approaching men who were considered to be wise by the people of Athens, such as statesmen, poets, and artisans, in order to refute the pronouncement of the Oracle. But questioning them, Socrates came to the conclusion that while each man thought he knew a great deal and was very wise, they in fact knew very little and were not really wise at all. Socrates realized that the Oracle was correct in that while so-called wise men thought themselves wise and yet were not, he himself knew he was not wise at all which, paradoxically, made him the wiser one since he was the only person aware of his own ignorance. Socrates' paradoxical wisdom made the prominent Athenians he publicly questioned look foolish, turning them against him and leading to accusations of wrongdoing. Socrates defended his role as a gadfly until the end: at his trial, when Socrates was asked to propose his own punishment, he suggests a wage paid by the government instead, to finance the time he spends as Athens' benefactor.[7] He was nevertheless found guilty of corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens and sentenced to death by drinking a mixture containing poison hemlock.

In a message dated 4/10/2008 3:23:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

In looking at history, you are correct. Einstien's revered theories were met with indifference at first and some skepticism afterwards. Einstein was mildly disappointed, but also understood that the majority of his peers had intelligences incompatible with his own and so would take some time to understand his theories. He continued with his researches until everyone else caught up. Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Guest guest]

Just remember the old saying about family: God gave us family to learn to get along with people we would rather kill.

In a message dated 4/10/2008 4:55:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

At present, the four entities I have had the least progress with are my parents, my sister, and Autism Speaks. But thanks.AdministratorPlanning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Guest guest]

I'm glad you liked that one. I don't often tell it because not everyone sees the humor in it.

I hadn't heard that but once I stopped chuckling, I realized that itis actually very accurate. Thanks for posting that, .RavenPlanning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Guest guest]

" I am sorry it is but I think people will always be opposed to the

truth. Many of our greatest thinkers and astronomers had their views

scoffed at and ridiculed yet the truth prevailed. "

In looking at history, you are correct. Einstien's revered theories

were met with indifference at first and some skepticism afterwards.

Einstein was mildly disappointed, but also understood that the

majority of his peers had intelligences incompatible with his own and

so would take some time to understand his theories. He continued with

his researches until everyone else caught up.

In watching documentaries on every major scientific advancement,

there are always four sets of people who revolve around a new

inventor or a new theorists:

1) Peers who are embarked on the same path but not quite there yet.

(Wilbur and Orville had many competitiors).

2) Peers who are struggling to gain the same goal but who do not

undberstand the science involved with attaining those goals. (Some of

the competitors were doing things like wearing feathered wings that

fit over their arms not realizing that their breat muscles came

nowhere near those of brids, and the inflexibility of the wings made

it impossible to steer or even make it off the ground if they did

have the muscles.)

3) Pompass asses who don't think the new science has any merit.

(There were those who were saying that if man were meant to fly, God

would have given us wings, and that flight by machine was impossible.)

4) Spectators who enjoy success and failure equally. These are people

who see scientific advancement as a sort of drag race. They do not

understand the possible good or bad implications of what the science

will bring. All they care about is watching someone win the

achievement race or watching someone crash and burn.

I have spent about eight years now messing about in online forums and

getting my fingers dirty in the autism world. I haven't seen all

there is to see, but my travels have taken me into forums, into

autism conventions, into the meeting rooms of the Autism Society of

America. I have corresponded with Donna and Tony Attwood and

others. I have met Aspies and parents of Aspies. I have met " savants "

and " idiot savants. "

And in my humble opinion, there is no greater idiot than an Aspie who

is quick to be critical of some move that I make while sitting on

their own rear end. These arm chair activists are good for garnering

public opinion in their favor, but they have no real conception of

where things have been and where things are headed for them.

It is really frustrating.

And frightening.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

>

> I can see how that would be annoying to say the least. It is one

reason why

> I don't bother, aside from being on this site and a couple of others.

The

> other reason is I'm not really expecting to be around that much

longer, so it is

> hard to get worked up about it.

>

>

>

>

please take care of yourself mimi

[Guest guest]

" It has beeeeeeen hhhhhaaaaarrrrddddddd! no really and somewhat

painful. Trial by fire, the funny thing is it has been rewarding, it

has given me confidence, raised my personal bar, forced me to make a

serious effort (something that was stilted around 5 onward) It is an

enormous trial, but I really admire Tom, Raven, Donna , and

really everyone that gets up and says no to half-lives. "

Tell me about it.

In literature there is an archtype called " descent into the

underworld " . In these sorts of stories, the protagnoist decends into a

literal or figurative underworld to experience things that few other

sectors of mankind ever do. The protagnost re-emerges at the end much

stronger than they went in. The most literal example of this type of

story would be a horror story, such as " The Amityville Horror " where

the family in question is haunted by evil and must live in a house that

is filled to the brim with it before finally escaping. " The Amityville

Story " is supposedly true by the way, yet it exemplifies what I am

talking about.

Another example was the short story " Looking for Mr. Green " which may

have been written by Saul Bellow, if I remember correctly. In that

story, a census taker is determined to have a correct census and spends

a long time tracking down the elusive Mr. Green. He goes through a very

shabby neighborhood but comes out on top in the end.

Then there is " A Jury of Her Peers " by Glaspell, in which a

murder is covered up by a bunch of women after it is determined that

the accused has been mistreated by her husband. These women descend

into the underworld as they uncover the crime, but they emerge from it

new people, even if they are technically accessories to the crime.

My point, Raven and I and Donna and other advocates have journeyed into

the underworld. We have seen and heard things that you would not

believe. But the problem is, sometimes we seem to be caught in

undertoes from which we cannot escape, and it is quite bewildering.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

>

> My point, Raven and I and Donna and other advocates have journeyed

into

> the underworld. We have seen and heard things that you would not

> believe. But the problem is, sometimes we seem to be caught in

> undertoes from which we cannot escape, and it is quite bewildering.

>

>

> Administrator

>

Tom you do reach people, change is slow and you may have people come to

you and say: That talk you gave changed my life. My son fit your

description but now he,....... Raven you inspire me, because when I

took my shotgun to my last IEP meeting. (just joking) But You are

appreciated no one ever tells you though (they are too NT) to say

it!

[Guest guest]

" Tom you do reach people, change is slow and you may have people come to

you and say: That talk you gave changed my life. My son fit your

description but now he,....... "

At present, the four entities I have had the least progress with are my

parents, my sister, and Autism Speaks.

But thanks.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

mimi wrote: " ... <snip> ... Raven you inspire me, because when I

took my shotgun to my last IEP meeting. (just joking) But You are

appreciated no one ever tells you though (they are too NT) to say

it! ... <snip> ... "

Sometimes all I need to hear is that my words are not falling on deaf

ears.

Sometimes my life is so impossibly difficult that all I really need to

hear is that something I suggested or did made a positive difference

in another person's life.

Thank you for being that person this week, mimi.

Raven

[Guest guest]

wrote: " Just remember the old saying about family: God gave us

family to learn to get along with people we would rather kill. "

I hadn't heard that but once I stopped chuckling, I realized that it

is actually very accurate. Thanks for posting that, .

Raven