RE: Re: Prime Action of the Biceps

[Guest guest]

Wayne,

I hate to burst your bubble but 's right. Also, as far as that goes,

there is no " best " exercise for any muscle. It varies according to your

goal, the phase your in and its goal, your experience, and your individual

needs/strengths/weaknesses. Also, 9 times out of 10 I would choose a

compound exercise over an isolation exercise.

J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

Assistant Strength & Conditioning Coach

College of ton

Strength Dept.

30 Str.

ton, SC 29424

(843)953-1424

(865)405-2136

jjacobs24@...

" Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to

reform " Mark Twain

" Human beings, by changing the inner attitudes of their minds, can change

the outer aspects of their lives "

>

>Reply-To: Supertraining

>To: Supertraining

>Subject: Re: Prime Action of the Biceps

>Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:16:42 -0000

>

>--- In Supertraining , " WAYNE G ROWLEY " <wayne@w...>

>wrote> After reading the above, I think you might agree one of the

>best biceps exercises is a dumbbell curl with a twisting movement

>staring with pronation and finishing with your hand at supination.

> >

>

>Actually, I don't agree. Any notion of a " best " exercise for a

>given muscle is meaningless outside a specific context in terms of

>training routine and training purpose.

>

>You seem to be assuming that the " best " exercise for a muscle is

>determined by examining all the theoretical joint-mobilizing effects

>the muscle could possibly have, then selecting an exercise in which

>the muscle moves those joint(s) accordingly from one utmost extreme

>of motion range to the opposite.

>

>This type of thinking gained popularity starting in the 70's among

>steroid-using bodybuilders and became widespread via Weider

>publications. However, for bodybuilders whose recovery capacities

>have not been rendered virtually unlimited by drug use, this way of

>thinking isn't very useful. In the context of a real non-juiced

>person's training, following this line of thought leads to way too

>many exercises and too large of an overall workload, which sabotages

>recovery. For this reason, the " best " biceps exercise is often the

>one that works the biceps adequately in the context of the overall

>workout plan, even if it is only a partial ROM contributor to a

>multijoint compound movement. Plenty of impressive biceps have been

>built without doing curls of any kind.

>

>In terms of training athletes for sporting purposes, your paradigm

>is even worse. If one is in a general training phase for

>strength/hypertrophy, the exercise would probably not make the cut

>for similar reasons to those cited for bodybuilding above. If one

>is training for more sport-specific functioning, the best exercise

>will be based upon the movement patterns of the target activity and

>the likely transfer from the exercise thereto, without reference to

>any specific muscle group. Needless to say, unless one is training

>for thumb-weighted hitch-hiking or some kind of power garden-

>troweling event, the twisting dumbbell curl is unlikely to be of

>much use.

>

> Wilbanks

>ville, FL

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hi all,

No holly, I think you got it the wrong way round, but no worry's, ok if I put

you right ?

The easy curl bar instead of improving the curl, it almost ruins it. The easy

curl bar certainly twists the grip, but it twists it in the wrong direction,

forcing the biceps into a position where it cannot fully contract, In order to

contract, a muscle must produce movement of the related body part. The easy curl

bar in this exercise prevents such movement.

You said, keep more coming, got one or two more on the way.

Wayne Rowley

Valletta Malta

thank you Wayne

Wayne,

Very interesting and thought provoking. Seeing the what you posted

is true, then any bicep curl with a easy curl bar is superior to a

straight barbell curl.

Any thoughts??

Keep more coming!!!!

Holly Gatto ACE-CPT

Pittsburgh, PA

[Guest guest]

J s said

>> Wayne,

I hate to burst your bubble but 's right. Also, as far as that goes,

there is no " best " exercise for any muscle. It varies according to your

goal, the phase your in and its goal, your experience, and your individual

needs/strengths/weaknesses. Also, 9 times out of 10 I would choose a

compound exercise over an isolation exercise.<<

But I didn't say the best, but I did say one, not the best but one of the best

exercises for the biceps is the twisting curl with dumbbells, (as most people do

the twisting curl. The start of the alternate dumbbell curls your hands are at

your sides, knuckles facing away from each other, then when you start curling

you start twisting the dumbbells, if you don't twist them its called a hammer

curl or zottman curl.) .

But I think if you use the twisting curl, thus working the biceps in its prime

function (supination) and second function (the curl) and it strengthens the

biceps, I don't think there is any sport, or anything in life, biceps related

that a stronger biceps, will not come in handy and be an advantage whatever you

do biceps related, from a child to a Olympic athlete strengthening you biceps

should be a advantage.

Wayne Rowley

Malta Valletta

[Guest guest]

Dr. Yesis,

Thank you and I concur. I may not always agree 100% with everything that you

say but you are certainly an authority in this field. For the rest of the

group, have an open mind (no matter how smart that you think you are) and be

compelled to always learn no matter how many years or letters are behind

your name. If you have a desire to be the best then you must be willing to

change as available (and valuable) knowledge changes.

J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

Assistant Strength & Conditioning Coach

College of ton

Strength Dept.

30 Str.

ton, SC 29424

(843)953-1424

(865)405-2136

jjacobs24@...

" Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to

reform " Mark Twain

" Human beings, by changing the inner attitudes of their minds, can change

the outer aspects of their lives "

>

>Reply-To: Supertraining

>To: <Supertraining >

>Subject: Re: Prime Action of the Biceps

>Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:17:19 -0800

>

>I've been following the posts in regard to the prime action of the biceps

>and the negative and positive comments in regard to the mentioning of

>books. I am combining both of these topics as they are interrelated.

>

>In regard to the biceps, I thought perhaps there was some new information

>that had been discovered through EMG or other studies showing some unique

>functions of the biceps that were up to this time unknown. There's nothing

>wrong with bringing out information that has been well established over the

>years, but I believe it's somewhat misleading to make a big issue of it.

>The knowledge of the biceps showing little potential when the hand is in

>the pronated position has been known since the 1950s. It has been written

>up in many textbooks on kinesiology and I even bring it out in my book,

>Kinesiology of Exercise. To me, this shows that many people do not read

>books that contain basic information, whether it be in anatomy,

>kinesiology, biomechanics or sports training. This is why we keep

>rehashing the same information. Every time it comes up it's something

>brand new when in fact, it is old information. This is certainly not any

>way to make progress in the field. Many people seem to be more impressed

>with popular cult or guru figures rather than learning more about the topic

>themselves.

>

>Lack of reading by most trainers and coaches is a major problem. For

>example, I have mentioned Explosive Running several times. Many people

>have this book, but instead of reading it they call me with questions. I

>ask them if they read it, and they say, well, I looked it over. They did

>not read it! Most people who read this and some of my other books

>carefully will usually tell me that they're reading it for the second or

>third time because every time they read it, they're learning something new.

> I understand we live in a fast culture and everybody wants immediate

>information, but some of this information cannot be gotten immediately. It

>must be studied and we must be well read in the specific area.

>

>Not reading the material that's available in a particular area is not

>unique to trainers or coaches. I find this quite rampant even in the

>universities. For example, I once had a graduate student come to me with a

>proposal for her thesis on plyometrics. Her proposal was erroneous and I

>told her she should read up on the topic and then come up with a study that

>is worthy of research. Instead, she went to another professor who knew

>nothing about plyometrics but who liked the topic, and lo and behold a

>study was done which contributed more confusion to the field. This is true

>of many studies that are being done and published. They have not looked at

>the information already available but merely come up with a topic that

>sounds good and contributes little.

>

>Even the certification groups are guilty of presenting misleading

>information. For example, I have been writing about the need to hold

>breath during the exertion phase for over thirty years. Even Mel had

>written to this effect. But yet, the popular opinion propagated by the

> " experts " is that you must exhale on the exertion. (This by the way is the

>main criticism of my book, Kinesiology of Exercise.) I would challenge

>anyone to find articles, magazines or books challenging this in

>recommendation in the popular press. How many years will it take before it

>is recognized that breath holding is needed? It is especially frustrating

>when there is NO research substantiating exhalation on exertion.

>

>I must agree and disagree with the concept of a best exercise for a muscle.

> I agree that there is no one best generic exercise. As brought out, it

>depends upon one's objective and abilities. In regard to the biceps, if

>you are looking for full development of the muscle, then there is a best

>exercise and it is elbow flexion with forearm supination. This has been

>substantiated through EMG studies. Electrical potential is much greater

>when you execute both actions in sequence rather than doing only elbow

>flexion.

>

>I would not criticize bodybuilding because of steroid use since the same

>can be said of the other iron sports. There is nothing wrong with reading

>some of the muscle publications such as Muscle and Fitness, at least in the

>past decades, as they have been innovative in new exercises and exercise

>regimes. In my estimation, they are still the best at building muscle

>regardless of steroids. Understand that steroids do not make the muscle,

>training does.

>

>I disagree with in regard to the supinating curl not being of any

>value in sports specific training. This action is seen in many skills,

>especially in the preparatory phase of execution. It may not contribute to

>greater power in the end result, but it is an action that does occur and

>there is nothing wrong with strengthening the muscle in these actions. It

>balances the development of the triceps and pronators when the athlete

>executes elbow extension together with pronation in many throwing and

>hitting skills.

>

>Last but not least, it should be brought out that the biceps has more than

>three or four functions. There are six or seven, depending upon which

>source you read. When you separate the functions of the short and long

>head of the biceps, you will see that there are even more functions that

>have not been considered. You can learn about these in most kinesiology

>texts.

>

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Yessis, Ph.D

>President, Sports Training, Inc.

>www.dryessis.com

>

>PO Box 460429

>Escondido, CA 92046

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Great points Dr Yessis, I brought out the post, prime action of the biceps, to

try and help people, as believe it or not I have noticed about 95% of the people

who lifts weights do not know this question. Sorry I didn't mean to make a big

issue of it. And yes I see your point of people not reading books, I to have

lent many books out, then so and so comes back and asks how do you do this that,

I say politely but I lent you the book didn't I ?

Wayne Rowley

Malta Valletta

Re: Prime Action of the Biceps

I've been following the posts in regard to the prime action of the biceps and

the negative and positive comments in regard to the mentioning of books. I am

combining both of these topics as they are interrelated.

In regard to the biceps, I thought perhaps there was some new information that

had been discovered through EMG or other studies showing some unique functions

of the biceps that were up to this time unknown. There's nothing wrong with

bringing out information that has been well established over the years, but I

believe it's somewhat misleading to make a big issue of it. The knowledge of

the biceps showing little potential when the hand is in the pronated position

has been known since the 1950s. It has been written up in many textbooks on

kinesiology and I even bring it out in my book, Kinesiology of Exercise. To me,

this shows that many people do not read books that contain basic information,

whether it be in anatomy, kinesiology, biomechanics or sports training. This is

why we keep rehashing the same information. Every time it comes up it's

something brand new when in fact, it is old information. This is certainly not

any way to make progress in the field. Many people seem to be more impressed

with popular cult or guru figures rather than learning more about the topic

themselves.

Lack of reading by most trainers and coaches is a major problem. For example,

I have mentioned Explosive Running several times. Many people have this book,

but instead of reading it they call me with questions. I ask them if they read

it, and they say, well, I looked it over. They did not read it! Most people

who read this and some of my other books carefully will usually tell me that

they're reading it for the second or third time because every time they read it,

they're learning something new. I understand we live in a fast culture and

everybody wants immediate information, but some of this information cannot be

gotten immediately. It must be studied and we must be well read in the specific

area.

Not reading the material that's available in a particular area is not unique

to trainers or coaches. I find this quite rampant even in the universities.

For example, I once had a graduate student come to me with a proposal for her

thesis on plyometrics. Her proposal was erroneous and I told her she should

read up on the topic and then come up with a study that is worthy of research.

Instead, she went to another professor who knew nothing about plyometrics but

who liked the topic, and lo and behold a study was done which contributed more

confusion to the field. This is true of many studies that are being done and

published. They have not looked at the information already available but merely

come up with a topic that sounds good and contributes little.

Even the certification groups are guilty of presenting misleading information.

For example, I have been writing about the need to hold breath during the

exertion phase for over thirty years. Even Mel had written to this effect. But

yet, the popular opinion propagated by the " experts " is that you must exhale on

the exertion. (This by the way is the main criticism of my book, Kinesiology of

Exercise.) I would challenge anyone to find articles, magazines or books

challenging this in recommendation in the popular press. How many years will it

take before it is recognized that breath holding is needed? It is especially

frustrating when there is NO research substantiating exhalation on exertion.

I must agree and disagree with the concept of a best exercise for a muscle. I

agree that there is no one best generic exercise. As brought out, it depends

upon one's objective and abilities. In regard to the biceps, if you are looking

for full development of the muscle, then there is a best exercise and it is

elbow flexion with forearm supination. This has been substantiated through EMG

studies. Electrical potential is much greater when you execute both actions in

sequence rather than doing only elbow flexion.

I would not criticize bodybuilding because of steroid use since the same can

be said of the other iron sports. There is nothing wrong with reading some of

the muscle publications such as Muscle and Fitness, at least in the past

decades, as they have been innovative in new exercises and exercise regimes. In

my estimation, they are still the best at building muscle regardless of

steroids. Understand that steroids do not make the muscle, training does.

I disagree with in regard to the supinating curl not being of any value

in sports specific training. This action is seen in many skills, especially in

the preparatory phase of execution. It may not contribute to greater power in

the end result, but it is an action that does occur and there is nothing wrong

with strengthening the muscle in these actions. It balances the development of

the triceps and pronators when the athlete executes elbow extension together

with pronation in many throwing and hitting skills.

Last but not least, it should be brought out that the biceps has more than

three or four functions. There are six or seven, depending upon which source

you read. When you separate the functions of the short and long head of the

biceps, you will see that there are even more functions that have not been

considered. You can learn about these in most kinesiology texts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yessis, Ph.D

President, Sports Training, Inc.

www.dryessis.com

PO Box 460429

Escondido, CA 92046

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~