Re: H.S. Football Strength Program

[Guest guest]

,

Wow there really seems to be to many repetitive motions in this workout

especially at his age and if its a strength work. Way too much pressure on the

joints. If you would like for me to explain please e-mail me.

[better yet, please explain it on the list as this is the purpose of this group!

JRG]

Lawrence

Haltom City, Texas

Clinevell wrote:

<< Just wanted to share with you guys what my nephew's H.S.

football strength program is. I'm having difficulty working around

it with him and he's already lost about 40lbs off of his box squat in 3-4

weeks. Apparently all of this is done over an 8 week " cycle " ...>>

[Guest guest]

greetings...

I am the Strength/Conditioning Coach for a playoff 4A football team... and have

used all kinds of sets/reps/routines/days over my career. My experience says

that for IN season, they're doing too much. My guys bench, incline, FULL squat,

and either powerclean or deadlift 2-3 days a week. I don't see how you can get

weaker and be 'football stronger'... that just don't make sense to me.

Any time I have a kid who stalls for three weeks or longer, inseason OR out, I'm

doing something wrong; I change his weight, his reps, his rest, and if changing

HIS intensity doesn't work, I change MINE...

As regards secondary/assistance exercises: inseason we do those on Saturdays;

offseason, we do them one day a week... that's it... if a kid can't squat...

heavy... he's not really strong... ~shrugs...~

IF I were to try and analyze the program you gave, I'd ask for percentages

before making any judgement other than two things: I don't know WHAT speed

squats will do for a football player... we do speed work on the field, sprints,

back pedal, etc. I don't have them under squat racks near long enough to take

time for speed squats. The second question I'd simply ask is what advantage does

doing a single set of neck work, etc. give?

Finally... being a D-1 player doesn't doesn't have anything to do with knowing

how to coach strength, football, table tennis, or anything else...

Bear Guinard, MWNI {Man With No Initials}

Fort Worth, TX

[Guest guest]

,

Sounds like a tough situation. Your " strength coach " reminds me of

the commercials for Holiday Inn Express hotels, as they show an

individual in a job or situation demanding a high level of training

and expertise (i.e. a doctor) and someone will ask them, " are you a

doctor? " Reply, " No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last

night. "

Just because this individual played D-I football does not make them

an expert on strength and conditioning.

You hate to confront someone over something like this, because people

often take it personal. This individual may have been forced to

create the S & C program even though it is not their area of

expertise.

You could get around any program flaws by having your nephew

simply " tweak " the workouts, they show up, do similar exercises, fill

out any workout sheets that are provided, but tweak the set and rep

schemes to make the workout more effective. At the high school level

there are usually too many kids at the weight room at once for a

coach to watch every kid on every set and rep.

If the coach is approachable, you can work with him/her on changing

the program. I won't evaluate the whole program, but as for the box

squats, they are normally done for " speed " anyway (as you may know).

The load on the bar should be light 40-60% of one rep max and after a

brief pause on contact with the box the lifter explodes back up for

the concentric phase. There are many other considerations such as bar

position, stance width, and the placement of emphasis on the

posterior chain (low back, glutes, and hamstrings, and most

importantly the box height; which should be differnet for each

individual. The Box squat is performed at or below parallel squat

depth. If everyone used a 19 " box (which was the impression I got

from your post) some people will be doing a deep squat, while others

will barely do a quarter squat.

If you wanted some reference materials on the box squat for the s & c

coach I would direct them to wwww.westside-barbell.com,

www.elitefts.com, or www.t-nation.com (search the article archives

for Dave Tate). All of these sites contain articles on the box squat

from lifters from Westside Barbell Club (i.e. Louie , Dave

Tate) and regardless of what is thought of their overall lifting

methodologies they use the box squat alot, and to great success, and

have composed several good articles on its use.

And finally, what is " football strong " !?!? Peak performance in

football requires a comprhensive training program encompassing

maximal strength, speed strength/power, running speed (linear and

lateral), agility (linear and lateral), and strength endurance,

flexibility, etc. Which is not achieved by lifting barbells alone.

Good luck!

Roe, CSCS

LA Crosse, WI

" Clinevell " <skunkmonk@j...> wrote:

> Just wanted to share with you guys what my nephew's H.S.

> football strength program is. I'm having difficulty working around

> it with him and he's already lost about 40lbs off of his box squat

> in 3-4 weeks. Apparently all of this is done over an 8 week " cycle " ...

[Guest guest]

,

I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I was introduced to the Bigger,

Faster, Stronger (BFS) program in high school. Some 300 pound guy representing

the company came in and was jumping on picnic tables from a standing position.

Seemed cool to me at the time, but I really didn't like the rep scheme it was

just too much!

I was a lineman and a power athlete. The higher reps didn't get me to the point

of being my strongest during and after the season. At the time my buddy and I

just modified what the system suggested. I think the program being offered has

too many reps, benching and squatting on the same day just not my idea of

productive, no cleans for explosive speed when coming off the line, blocking,

etc, no ab work, once again this is just my opinion.

Also I'm not a big machine fan, they have a tendency to build uneven muscle

development - for example after using a bench machine you may move to free

weight to find one side compensating for the other weaker side and you'd end up

having uneven extension with the potential for injury. Once again my opinion, I

prefer free weights.

I think a solid foundation of heavy day (upper & lower) and speed day (upper &

lower) for recovery is good, keep the bench, squats, add deads, power clean or

other partial clean movements for explosive full body momentum movements and

make sure to split the days up. Focus on lower back, abs for a strong

core/foundation. I like Westside methods and they even have some articles for

football training on the Elite Fitness site.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/westside_training_football.htm

Depending on the position being played you would use your off days for position

specific drills, plyo's and other GPP or cardio training. During the on season

you can use the beginning of the week for heavy days and the end of the week for

light days, practices will be used for GPP/Cardio, position specific activity.

I'm pretty sure Joe Kenn (ASU strength coach) has a book about sport specific

activity, but haven't had a chance to read it.

I can say that the strongest weightlifter is not always the best football player

on the field, but if you use the lifts to develop your core you stand a better

chance. It’s about leverage, back and leg strength! Best of luck and I would

look for a different program, the downside is this guy may be a jerk and your

nephew may pay for it by not being able to play or the coach riding him so hard

he would want to not play anymore and quit.

Braunbeck

Surprise, AZ USA

Clinevell wrote:

<<Just wanted to share with you guys what my nephew's H.S.

football strength program is. I'm having difficulty working around

it with him and he's already lost about 40lbs off of his box squat in 3-4

weeks. Apparently all of this is done over an 8 week " cycle " ...>>

[Guest guest]

There was a good discussion about BFS around December

24-28, 2002 on this listserve. Check the archives for

them.

I've seen a number of high school implement BFS with

varying degrees of success. The program is very

prescriptive and I've seen coaches follow the basic

program to the letter - obviously not the best thing

for all athletes. On the other hand, there are coaches

who go nuts w. conditioning, plyos, etc... that it's

no surprise that the kids end up hating lifting.

I don't keep up with BFS publications and I've never

seen the variations your son's coach is using in a BFS

program. I don't know how your son was training prior

to this, but I'm not surprised that his squat is

suffering. A lot of kids I've seen go through a

to-the-letter-BFS program started to regress a few

weeks into the program.

The main gripes I have with BFS is their: 1) basically HIT

approach to lifting, 2) overemphasis of daily PRs,

3)lack of direction in plyos/agility/speed work in

their programs, 4) slow, static stretching prior to

workouts, and 5) their insistence on the use of

ultra-high box squats on tiny, unstable boxes.

Just my observations. Good luck with your son - I hope

he does well.

Boris Bachmann

Des Moines, IA

P.S. - Your name looks familiar. Did I send you a

booklet about strength training for competitive

swimming a while back?

--- Clinevell wrote:

> Just wanted to share with you guys what my nephew's

> H.S. football strength program is. I'm having difficulty

> working around it with him and he's already lost about 40lbs off of

> his box squat in 3-4 weeks. Apparently all of this is done over an 8

> week " cycle " ...

[Guest guest]

I don't know how old your nephew is or how much football he plays but

this sounds like a lot of volume for someone who also has to play

another sport week in week out. Especially something as damaging to

the body as football. Sounds like overtraining to me.

To be fair, what with injuries etc, I wouldn't expect everyone to

keep getting stronger throughout the entire season but in my personal

experience you should be able to at least maintain strength if you do

not have injuries that keep you out of the weight room.

As for " football stronger " , if you make it through the season without

getting injured and are still standing by the time you make the

finals then I would say your programme is on the right track. In many

cases the team that wins at the end of the season is not necessarily

the best team but the team who deteriorates least.

The problem with " mass " programmes is that they don't allow for

individual recovery rates etc. If I was doing this programme I would

lose strength immediately because it takes ages for me to recover

between sessions (3-5 days). A good coach with experience should be

able to monitor his player's progress and make changes to his basic

routine on an individual basis to accomodate recovery rates,

anthropometics, motivation levels etc. But how many places have good

strength coaches?

On the good side, it looks as though the programme is balanced to

some extent and they are doing some neck work (which is vital for

football).

What can your nephew do if he doesn't want to scrap this programme

and make up his own? Cut the number of sessions per week until he

starts improving. Cut the number of sets per session until he starts

improving. Get more sleep, eat better and drink more water. There are

numerous options available.

One thing I know " if something isn't working, change it until you

find something that does " .

You managed to find the Supertraining forum - so you obviously

already have your own ideas about what makes a good training

programme. I'm sure you can encourage your nephew to take control of

his own training and find what works for him, while taking into

consideration the comments made by others and evaluating them on

thier own merits.

Greg Haroldson

Brighton

UK

" Clinevell " <skunkmonk@j...> wrote:

> Just wanted to share with you guys what my nephew's H.S.

> football strength program is. I'm having difficulty working around

> it with him and he's already lost about 40lbs off of his box squat

> in 3-4 weeks. Apparently all of this is done over an 8 week " cycle " .

[Guest guest]

Lawrence,

No explanation needed for me as to why this isn't an ideal

program. I had been training him with a conjugate system. I'm not a

fan of BFS programs but this program seems to take BFS and make it

worse.

Clinevell

Salem, Virginia

lawrence gonzales5 <train2415@y...> wrote:

> Wow there really seems to be to many repetitive motions in this

> workout especially at his age and if its a strength work. Way too

> much pressure on the joints.

[Guest guest]

Lawrence,

No explanation needed for me as to why this isn't an ideal

program. I had been training him with a conjugate system. I'm not a

fan of BFS programs but this program seems to take BFS and make it

worse.

Clinevell

Salem, Virginia

lawrence gonzales5 <train2415@y...> wrote:

> Wow there really seems to be to many repetitive motions in this

> workout especially at his age and if its a strength work. Way too

> much pressure on the joints.

[Guest guest]

Bear,

This is their off season work. I don't have their in season

schedule but from what I've heard I think they probably don't do

enough work during in season.

Yeah, the whole " football stronger " argument doesn't make sense to

me either. One of the things that particularly frustrating is that

I'm sure that most of the kids doing this program are getting

stronger because most of the kids have probably never lifted before.

Most 14-17 yo kids get bigger and stronger everyday just by eating

and sleeping.

I had been doing a conjugated system to good effect with him that

had employed speed squats (more of a westside version of speed squats

than this system). I gradually phased these out as we and the school

began to implement more sprint and field work.

I certainly agree that being a D1 player does not make you a

strength coach as I would agree that multiple state championships (as

this school has) does not necessarily indicate a superior SC program.

Clinevell

Salem, VA

[Guest guest]

Bear,

This is their off season work. I don't have their in season

schedule but from what I've heard I think they probably don't do

enough work during in season.

Yeah, the whole " football stronger " argument doesn't make sense to

me either. One of the things that particularly frustrating is that

I'm sure that most of the kids doing this program are getting

stronger because most of the kids have probably never lifted before.

Most 14-17 yo kids get bigger and stronger everyday just by eating

and sleeping.

I had been doing a conjugated system to good effect with him that

had employed speed squats (more of a westside version of speed squats

than this system). I gradually phased these out as we and the school

began to implement more sprint and field work.

I certainly agree that being a D1 player does not make you a

strength coach as I would agree that multiple state championships (as

this school has) does not necessarily indicate a superior SC program.

Clinevell

Salem, VA

[Guest guest]

,

I think it may be a lot like that commercial and I think you're

right that this coach may take a discussion about the program

personal. When he acted like getting weaker in the weight room was

expected and maybe even desired as they would be getting " football

stronger " I wanted to ask why they bother lifting at all during the

offseason.

The box squats they do are for max reps and they either box or free

squat for max reps three times per week. The speed squats they do

are squatting down until the bar hits the safety pins (again same

height for everybody) and then coming only halfway up before

descending again for 3 sets of 10 reps.

My nephew came home from training at the school and was excited

that he had squatted 100lbs more than he had ever squatted. However,

he was squatting higher than he had ever squatted (19 " box). A

couple weeks later he tested on the 11 3/4 " box that he had tested on

before going to the school to work out and found out he was actually

about 40lbs below his PR.

I'm sure it's like this at most schools but they apparently offer

little supervision as they have the other kids spotting each other

and I don't think any of them really know what they're doing. When a

lifter fails on the squat my nephew has been told that they are

simply to fall forward on to the safety pins. When they fail on the

bench the spotter lifts the barbell to the rack - one end of the

barbell at a time.

My thought has been to get him to " tweak " the sets, reps,

exercises, etc. as well but I was trying to find a way of doing it

without deceiving his coaches. I've also got to do a better job of

making my nephew understand the reasoning behind doing what he had

been doing.

Clinevell

Salem, VA

[Guest guest]

,

I think it may be a lot like that commercial and I think you're

right that this coach may take a discussion about the program

personal. When he acted like getting weaker in the weight room was

expected and maybe even desired as they would be getting " football

stronger " I wanted to ask why they bother lifting at all during the

offseason.

The box squats they do are for max reps and they either box or free

squat for max reps three times per week. The speed squats they do

are squatting down until the bar hits the safety pins (again same

height for everybody) and then coming only halfway up before

descending again for 3 sets of 10 reps.

My nephew came home from training at the school and was excited

that he had squatted 100lbs more than he had ever squatted. However,

he was squatting higher than he had ever squatted (19 " box). A

couple weeks later he tested on the 11 3/4 " box that he had tested on

before going to the school to work out and found out he was actually

about 40lbs below his PR.

I'm sure it's like this at most schools but they apparently offer

little supervision as they have the other kids spotting each other

and I don't think any of them really know what they're doing. When a

lifter fails on the squat my nephew has been told that they are

simply to fall forward on to the safety pins. When they fail on the

bench the spotter lifts the barbell to the rack - one end of the

barbell at a time.

My thought has been to get him to " tweak " the sets, reps,

exercises, etc. as well but I was trying to find a way of doing it

without deceiving his coaches. I've also got to do a better job of

making my nephew understand the reasoning behind doing what he had

been doing.

Clinevell

Salem, VA

[Guest guest]

,

I agree with everything you've said. I think I'm starting to like

high pulls more than powercleans though.

Apparently, if the kids don't attend 20 out of the 23 sessions

before the season they have to do extra conditioning. Exactly what

that extra conditioning entails I do not know but it would seem to be

punitive.

Thanks for reminding about the Westside football article, I think I'll read it

again.

Clinevell

Salem, VA

[Guest guest]

,

I agree with everything you've said. I think I'm starting to like

high pulls more than powercleans though.

Apparently, if the kids don't attend 20 out of the 23 sessions

before the season they have to do extra conditioning. Exactly what

that extra conditioning entails I do not know but it would seem to be

punitive.

Thanks for reminding about the Westside football article, I think I'll read it

again.

Clinevell

Salem, VA

[Guest guest]

,

Yeah I am not a BFS fan either. Does BFS still use towel bench as well as box

squats? I never understood there reasoning behind either of these. Strength

comes from using and power comes from learning and using the entire body

together not by limiting range of motion: Squat... quads, hips, hams, low back,

abs and even shoulders. Bench... pecs ,front dnd rear delts, tris and even lats.

So I have never understood how people expect to get stronger by limiting range

of motion and removing secondary movers.

When it comes to football then entire body has to work together. I mean I can

understand the high reps so you have endurance on the field but not so many

exercises and sets.

My opinion: Squat, bench, deads, cleans, pullups and jammer if you are lucky and

have one. Controlled but explosive on all sets 8-12 reps can't really see a need

for more than that. I say this because I was a Division 1 player, what does that

even mean to anyone?

Anyway I have trained my share of athletes from power to golf and strength is

strength.

Lawrence

Haltom City TX

Clinevell wrote:

> Lawrence,

>

> No explanation needed for me as to why this isn't an ideal

> program. I had been training him with a conjugate system. I'm not a

> fan of BFS programs but this program seems to take BFS and make it

> worse.

[Guest guest]

,

The way you describe spotting technique there is first and foremost unsafe. In

addition, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Just so you know, nowhere that I've

been have we done it that way. We lift in groups of three, squat rack against

bench, and the third of the benchers is the back spotter for the squatter, so

that ALL squatters have three spotters. bench only has one dedicated spotter,

but there's help available if needed. We send a MINIMUM of three coaches to the

weight room, and on the food chain, they work for Me... which means they WORK in

there.

Do we get to watch every kid every rep?... not a chance... but are there always

eyes roaming that room?... better believe it. I've been doing high school

strength for over ten years, and not one kid has been hurt in My weight room

yet... I like that record, and another twenty years added to it would be really

good...

Bear Guinard

Ft. Worth, TX

[Guest guest]

, best of luck with this guy. If I were to take a guess as to what extra

conditioning is I'd say gassers or some type of sprint 'til you puke thing!

I used to like high pulls and hang cleans, due to the top part of the power

clean started killing my wrist and forearms. My flexability sucks so that was

the main problem! No need to do them now, so I never venture into anything more

than deadlift variations, squat variations and goodmorning variations. I'm

pretty much Westside hybrid for lower body and Metal Militia for bench/upper

body.

Best of Luck,

Braunbeck

Surprise, AZ USA

Clinevell wrote:,

> I agree with everything you've said. I think I'm starting to like

> high pulls more than powercleans though.

>

> Apparently, if the kids don't attend 20 out of the 23 sessions

> before the season they have to do extra conditioning. Exactly what

> that extra conditioning entails I do not know but it would seem to be

> punitive.

>

> Thanks for reminding about the Westside football article, I think I'll read >

it again.

[Guest guest]

, best of luck with this guy. If I were to take a guess as to what extra

conditioning is I'd say gassers or some type of sprint 'til you puke thing!

I used to like high pulls and hang cleans, due to the top part of the power

clean started killing my wrist and forearms. My flexability sucks so that was

the main problem! No need to do them now, so I never venture into anything more

than deadlift variations, squat variations and goodmorning variations. I'm

pretty much Westside hybrid for lower body and Metal Militia for bench/upper

body.

Best of Luck,

Braunbeck

Surprise, AZ USA

Clinevell wrote:,

> I agree with everything you've said. I think I'm starting to like

> high pulls more than powercleans though.

>

> Apparently, if the kids don't attend 20 out of the 23 sessions

> before the season they have to do extra conditioning. Exactly what

> that extra conditioning entails I do not know but it would seem to be

> punitive.

>

> Thanks for reminding about the Westside football article, I think I'll read >

it again.

[Guest guest]

,

So why no need for the pulls and cleans now?

Clinevell

Salem, VA

Braunbeck <abraunb16@y...> wrote:

> I used to like high pulls and hang cleans, due to the top part of

> the power clean started killing my wrist and forearms. My

> flexability sucks so that was the main problem! No need to do them

> now, so I never venture into anything more than deadlift variations,

> squat variations and goodmorning variations. I'm pretty much

> Westside hybrid for lower body and Metal Militia for bench/upper

> body.

[Guest guest]

Well hi there,

The routine you outlined, I think was far too high volume, and had a lot of

bench-pressing (20 sets per week, not sure why). Way too much pressure on the

joints with all that work.

Here is routine that might interest you, to be done three times per week, 8 to

12 reps, slow controlled, one set of 8 to 12 reps

We believe all the speed work of football should be practiced on the field as in

passing, side stepping, sprinting etc, etc, ect.

4 way neck machine

Shoulder shrug

Hip and back machine or dead lift

Leg extension

Pullover on machine

Leg press or squat

Lateral raise

Shoulder press

Twisting dumbbell curl

Dips

Wrist curl

Finger curl

Reverse curl with thick handled barbell

Lots of youngsters love bench pressing, so you could add it twice a week.

Thank you,

Wayne Rowley

Valletta Malta

Clinevell wrote:

> Just wanted to share with you guys what my nephew's H.S.

> football strength program is. I'm having difficulty working around

> it with him and he's already lost about 40lbs off of his box squat in 3-4

> weeks. Apparently all of this is done over an 8 week " cycle " ...

[Guest guest]

Hello Wayne,

Definitely a lot of bench pressing. I like controlled but not

slow. The only slowing that I like to do while doing multi-joint

movements is at reversal and at rep completion. I do have him slow

some movements down when I'm working more for hypertrophy than

strength.

Thanks,

Clinevell

Salem, VA

WAYNE G ROWLEY <wayne@w...> wrote:

> The routine you outlined, I think was far too high volume, and had

> a lot of bench-pressing (20 sets per week, not sure why). Way too

> much pressure on the joints with all that work.

> ...

> Lots of youngsters love bench pressing, so you could add it twice a

> week.

[Guest guest]

Clinevell wrote:

> ,

>

> So why no need for the pulls and cleans now?

I just don't need them for my current routine(s), I'm 3 lift lifter and only

wish to focus on those lifts. Also I'm pretty big and unflexable ('5 " 11, 320)

so it's difficult to hold the weight at shoulder height, makes my wrist and

forearms hurt/ache. To be honest I only used the hang cleans and power cleans

during my first year of college and last two years of high school. I can't tell

you if it every helped or hindered " my " performance on the field since I didn't

have enough exposure to them. I like the movement and it's a great overall

building exercise for explosive speed and core training, just don't need it for

my current goals (800 squat, 550 bench, 650 dead). I will however expose my

children to them when they are old enough to start training.

Braunbeck

Surprise, AZ USA