Re: Powerlifting Squat(convincingly deep)

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your input ...Your so correct about USAPL having different

standards in practice on depth and the wide stance may not work for everyone in

the USAPL. I've been having problems lately getting my wide stance squats deep

enough.

Now I gotta start a different thread and comment/beef on that. First let me say

the USAPL is my organization of choice for holding the line on equipment

advances, and drug free lifting. Ok, nuff said defending the finest sanctioning

body in powerlifting. Now lets talk convincingly deep, and the disparity between

organizations.

On the USAPL web page USAPL president Larry Maille discusses convincingly deep,

and gives a little background on the prevailing standards as he saw it. He

suggested part of the reason our standard is so strict is because of the

influence the IPF has on the USAPL. The Europeans who are involved in

powerlifting have such a strong olympic background. In the article Dr Mallie was

just trying to encourage the reader to remove the subjective component away from

the judges and to not bomb out, but is the implication is that the higher up the

echelon of powerlifting/judging the more you have to go below parallel to pass?

When did the written rules change??? Hey they didn’t! Its still the top of the

hip insertion dipping below the top of the knee. period!!! Of course if you used

some type of electronic monitoring a person could satisfy the requirement in

such a small increment that it would be impossible to tell visually or the

lifter himself to feel...so the argument to lift convincingly deep is valid and

sound. But convince who? A Judge with an olympic bias intentionally requiring a

person to go way below parallel...I'm sorry he's wrong. (the Judge that is) I

know I'm just a duffer and will never lift internationally, but rules are rules,

and non powerlifting judges (oooooo did I just let a little bias of my own out?

) requiring lifters to break parallel beyond what is necessary to be visually

observed by a trained eye.

Bottom line is this...the lifter must break parallel, and any Judge visually

discerning the breaking of parallel by any amount ...I repeat ANY AMOUNT BELOW

PARALLEL, should pass the lift. What you should be seeing occasionally is

experienced/trained judges observing the breaking of parallel by amounts to

small for the spectators/inexperienced judge to tell. It's the inexperienced

judge that needs to see more depth below parallel to be sure, whereas the more

experienced judge is able to discern smaller increments below parallel. So in

the international arena with the most experienced judges and lifters, the

breaking of parallel by smaller amounts should be getting passed, not the other

way around, Any idiot can observe a squat one inch below parallel, and see that

parallel was broken.

Sorry for the rant...but hey what do you guys think...All comments are welcome

of course.

Hal Lloyd

Nome Alaska

[Guest guest]

The IPA?

I think you mean the IPF, International Powerlifting Federation.

IPF is quite a different matter from IPA, a federation that notably does NOT

have the same strict standard from most observations!

Thank you for including the interesting article. What I find most

interesting is that this has been a subject of stress to lifters for years

now, that it is still quite an arguable topic and I do sincerely wish some

conclusive and lifter comprehendable standard would be once and for all,

given. This would also help encourage people to meet the standard at the

higher levels on the local levels from the beginning and prevent what I feel

is preventable, the bombouts of less experienced yet capable lifters at the

national level due to the questions some have in preparing for the actual

required depth standard. Ideally the local meets prepare for the nationals,

which then select successful teams to represent the USA against the

international standard of judging. So clearly the standards must be

improved in some fashion to ensure fewer extreme disappointments NOT felt to

be solely the choice of say, a lifter's attempt at an aggressive or PR

opener (i.e. failure of the lifter to do the lift due to overenthusiastic

guess of strength on a given day)?

But as it has been said, the judges are human and they are the living

instruments of interpretation. I've long given the counsel that you should

open VERY light, and gauge the standard on that given day. I myself train

to a depth that is well, generally without question. I hate to bomb out of

meets, it is my own opinion that one should plan to be IN the meet. Others

are far more aggressive in their lifting and I admire their bravery in

opening a more challenging lift. For me, one bomb out was sufficient. I'd

like to avoid that terrible feeling for the rest of my career if possible!

The choice of opener and how you execute it is well in the control of the

lifter. The referees volunteer their services and until we sit in their

place, we can only do our best to execute the lift within the rules and the

interpretation of the referees. In some ways, this seems to be similar to

the US Constitution and the Supreme Court? <grin> where there are rules and

then the rules are interpreted by persons appointed to do so?

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

I agree with your concerns about the IPA going over board in requiring

lifters to go way below parallel to be passed. Better trained judges is the

answer rather than making the powerlifting squat look like the bottom of an

Olympic lift. Below is a copy of the article I wrote for PowerMag magazine

now Monster Muscle Magazine.

Larry " Iron "

Columbus, Ohio

[Guest guest]

,

My mistake in my rush. The IPA and the IPF are too entirely different

organization. The IPF is of course the International Powerlifting Federation

which is

the premier amateur drug tested federation in the world and probability

powerlifting's best chance to get into the Olympics. In the USA the USAPL

(United

States of America Powerlifting) is the approved stepping stone into that arena

of international competition. It is in the USAPL/IPF that the question has

been repeatedly been asked if their squats have been required to be too low.

The IPA is the International Powerlifting Association and is privately owned

by Mark Chaillet out of York, PA. He has both a Professional Division

(non-tested) and an Amateur Division (tested). The IPA is known to put on some

of the

best meets in the world with all the bells and whistles. Other federations and

meet directors do also but the IPA is known for their consistent standard of

quality meets. The controversy that sometimes follows the IPA is that in the

past they have been to be too liberal in their passing questionable squat for

legal depth. In the meets that I have attended in the past 2-3 years, I believe

they have been in line with the judging standards of most other federations.

How ever in every meet of any federation there will always be some

questionable calls. As points out, the referees are human and are subject

to making

some errors.

And so it goes.

Larry " Iron "

Columbus, Ohio

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I appreciate and agree with most of your thoughts on the issue of

squating depth. Perhaps I could add two long-standing observations to this

discussion, from my perspective as a USAPL National referee and also as a

several time member of our World teams.

1) IMO: The interpretation, as opposed to the written IPF/USAPL

rule, of squat depth is unduly influenced by European practices, no doubt

due to their OL background and control of their PL by OL.

2) IMO: Most of the skewed expectations of " deeper than written "

comes from judges who are not competitive lifters themselves. " Do as I

say, not as I do. "

I have NEVER witnessed a judge getting reprimanded for

red-lighting a squat that most reasonable people would agree was deep

enough-NEVER. This is what the jury should be overseeing. Does it work??

I have no solutions to offer to remedy this, but I imagine I've

stirred the nest...

Regards,

Jim Klostergaard

Houston, TX

[Guest guest]

,

Your killing me! I know your intentions are good and you're only trying to

help resolve the depth problem in powerlifting, but your suggestion would be the

death of Masters age powerlifting. The very thought of doing a pause with a

full squat with maximum weight with my 58 year old knees is one of the most

frightening thoughts I can imagine outside if they were to quit making Viagra.

It's just too depressing! In all seriousness, well trained referees with clear

instruction of the definition of a parallel line between the top of the

lifter's knee to the top of the hip bone is the real answer. Judges in other

sports

like the finish line of a close race or a base runner sliding into home plate

have to make instant decisions. Why can't powerlifting referees? They can

without making it " easy " on them by adjusting the acceptable line downward. By

the

way they would still have to decide if the lifter went low enough. A parallel

line is a parallel line no matter how low it is set, i.e., when the hip bone

is below the middle of the shin? Or in your suggestion, my big butt gives me an

unfair advantage over the flat butt competitors. No, lets keep the rule the

same as it has always been but fine tune our referee's ability to make the hard

decision as is done in other sports with close calls.

Have mercy on my aching knees,

Larry " Iron "

Columbus, Ohio