Re:Healthy milk vs milk yield

[Guest guest]

Grass fed cows can get mastitis too.-Jenn

[Guest guest]

I 100% support this statement. I have been working with animals to some degree for more than 40 years. I wish that I could be 100% disease free at all times. It would sure make life and my bank account much happier.

Chris

I think you will find that all herds will have times when there will be mastitis issues at some level. Its unrealistic to think that there will never be a problem if you do everything just right.........they are not machines and we don't live in a perfect world, and nobody knows everything........we are all on the learning curve somewhere. If you think you know it all about any animal you are fooling yourself.

We are all trying to minimize health issues, in our herds, but there will be times when there are conditions beyond our control that will adversly affect the animals.

matt

..

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[Guest guest]

>

> ,

>

> It's really nice to hear you have such trust in your farmer's herd

> management but I think your head's stuck in the sand up to your waist.

> Saying that bad management is the ONLY way to have health problems is

> like saying if you, as a human, eat right then you'll never get sick.

> That's just not life, stuff happens, even when you're doing right, it

> happens, you get sick, your animals get sick. But again, it's nice to

> see a consumer so happy with the product they are getting.

>

> Beinda

Do you have any rational basis for thinking that my head is stuck in

the sand?

I have no need to " trust " my farmer. I know the agronomic and

pedological choices he makes and the results speak for themselves.

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

>

> I hope you are correct. We are working with a well respected

consultant in the grass fed cattle world as we build up a herd of Red

Poll cattle for grass fattened beef. One of the breeders we bought

some heifers from had an older cow who had some complications and lost

her calf last Jan. She is a heavy milker and he did not milk her out

or put another calf on her and she apparently got mastitis in all four

quarters. He said she was headed for the auction because on top of

this, she was not conceiving. We bought her at market price and

brolught her home hoping we can salvage her. She is an outstanding

animal. He feeds a mineral mix prepared by a local feed mill, but our

consultant says the fact that she had mastitis indicates a lack of

minerals. We are doing all we can afford to do to get our cattle, our

pastures and our hay fields and our soil mineralized with the proper

balance of nutuients and micro nutrients at the same time trying to

protect and encourage the biology in the soil. I think this is the

right path but only time will tell. Our consultant says it can take up

to a year to correct mineral deficiencies in a cow.

>

> Cleve

Hi :

First, before I comment otherwise, I want to say that you are on the

right path.

I just looked up Red Poll cattle and I was pleased to see they are a

dual purpose breed. That would likely have spared them from " breeding

improvements " in either the beef or dairy direction. That, of course,

is what is wrong with modern beef and dairy animals. Even though my

dairy farmer also has a dual purpose breed that has been spared any

modern " breeding improvement " , he is still, in his words, " breeding

them backwards " . At one point in the early 90's he was down to one

bull and 5 cows. The current herd of over 30 producing dairy cows are

all decendants of those animals. He didn't want any outside genetics

setting his program back. Instead of seeing increasing genetic defects

from such intense inbreeding, he is seeing fewer. In his words, he

knew he couldn't do it without nutrition, and he knows nutrition is

based on soil fertility. What is perhaps amazing, is how easily he did it.

His cows have their first calf at age 3 and they can continue

producing milk until they are 15 or 16 years old. He has no calf

mortality problem. He does not use AI. He has no fertility problem.

His bull and his cows have horns.

Clearly the older cow you are trying to save was malnourished. Both

the mastitis and the inablilty to conceive are indicators of

malnutrition. While feeding minerals in her situation might help, it

can't replace nutritious feed. Albrecht suggested that when an

animal goes to the mineral bin, it is an act of desperation.

Often the " lack of minerals " is a lack of organic compounds that

contain minerals that are being synthesized by either microbes or

plants prior to consumption by the animal.

I have some questions for you.

1/ Are you planting any grasses in your pastures? If yes, are any of

them hybrids?

2/ What system of pasture management are you using?

3/ If you have had a soil test done, what is the CEC of your soil and

what are the base saturation percentages for hydrogen, calcium,

magnesium and potasium and what is the percentage of organic matter?

4/ What is your consultant's plan for your soil?

5/ Do you feed anything besides grass and, if so, what?

Best of luck,

[Guest guest]

,

If you don't mind me asking...what was the point of your original

posting, especially since you seem unhappy and defensive of any

criticism of your original statements? Are you advocating that raw

milk only be consumed and/or sold by farmers who are following your

farmer's management system, i.e. breeding, mineralization, etc.? You

had mentioned that you were in favor of restrictive legislation where

raw milk is concerned - are you saying that if a cow in my herd gets

mastitis, I should not be allowed to sell raw milk?

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

>

> If you don't mind me asking...what was the point of your original

> posting, especially since you seem unhappy and defensive of any

> criticism of your original statements? Are you advocating that raw

> milk only be consumed and/or sold by farmers who are following your

> farmer's management system, i.e. breeding, mineralization, etc.? You

> had mentioned that you were in favor of restrictive legislation where

> raw milk is concerned - are you saying that if a cow in my herd gets

> mastitis, I should not be allowed to sell raw milk?

>

> Cheryl

Hi Cheryl:

I don't mind your asking. The point of my original posting was to

demonstrate that so called modern agriculture, as shown by the

Ministry of Agriculture in the province I reside in, in a fact sheet

for prevention of mastitis, first states that in a prevention program

for mastitis you want to avoid any environmental stress on the animal

as it is known that environment stress increases the incidence of

mastitis. It goes on to state, however, that feeding programs for

maximum yield cause stress on the animal, and hence increase the risk

of mastitis. Then, laughingly imo, it goes on to say that decreasing

the risk of mastitis through not feeding for maximum yield does not

make economic sense. I would conclude that the government agriculture

position, if it is consistent, would be that it's ok to do anything

that might impair the health of the cow as long as it results in

increased yield. This would include breeding, feeding, drugs, etc.

This approach might sense from a milk safety point of view when

pasteurization is compulsory.

My point was the government actually admits this. Amazing.

I am not defensive or unhappy about any criticism of any of my

statements. I invite attack and I can reference my position with

repeatable scientific experiments.

Where I live, selling or giving away raw milk is illegal. I do not

want raw milk legalized as it would allow milk produced according to

the Ministry of Agriculture guidelines to be sold raw. I am against

that as they are good at making unsafe raw milk. So, at least for my

area, the farmer I get milk from would provide an example for

producing safe clean milk that would never require pasteurization.

That being the case, I would suggest any new regulation for raw milk

err on the side of being too careful. If raw milk were made legal and

there was any outbreak of any disease actually caused by raw milk,

then raw milk would quickly be made illegal again and we would be

further behind than we are now. Thus I do not advocate any change in

the current law, I advocate the government start a study to

investigate whether the farmer I get milk from has developed a system

for the continuous production of safe raw milk. They can look at the

health records for the animals and try to determine what caused the

disappearance of diseases that were common in the Holstein herd on the

farm he bought in 1983. They can determine why there is no longer any

calf mortality on this farm. They can determine why newborn calves are

up and suckling without assistance in ten to fifteen minutes. They can

look at the records for the milk that show no pathogen ever in milk

from this farm. Then, since they are concerned about contamination of

the milk by feces, they can test the feces as often and as many times

as they want to determine if any pathogen for which milk is

pasteurized is ever present. If they eventually become convinced that

indeed this farmer has discovered a method for the safe production of

raw milk then I would suggest that the pass regulations for raw milk

production based on their study of this farm and the agronomic and

pedological methods used.

As much as I might congratulate you for what you have been doing so

far, I would suggest if cows in your herd get mastitis, you still have

some way to go. Certainly the frequency of mastitis in the herd could

be a regulated factor for allowing raw milk to be sold. I am

interested in raw milk for it's nutritional value and I realize that

varies. I know it is not necessary to require farmers to produce

nutritious milk, it will suffice to require farmers to produce safe

milk from cows, like the cows owned by the farmer I get milk from,

that are healthy as shown by being disease and pathogen free. In that

case, the milk can't help but be nutritious.

Thanks for your interest.

[Guest guest]

,

You will never convince the government, the same government that is

advocating quantity of milk over quality of milk, to do any sort of

independent study examining how and why clean, nutritious raw milk

could be produced. The government is too entrenched in Big Ag, and Big

Ag in the government, to allow this. I'd suggest to you instead that

you focus on educating the people - the potential consumers - on what

your farmer is doing and why this is the way to produce milk (to be

sold raw or pasteurized), safely and humanely. I know some don't place

a whole lot of credence on ancedotal evidence, but I think it'll go a

lot further with many people than any government-sponsored study

would. People know in their heart of hearts what is right and what is

wrong.

Also, my cows don't get mastitis, they haven't for a long time. I was

just curious on what your stance was.

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

All cows can get mastitis. If someone is telling you their cows don't EVER

get sick I would really doubt them. Seriously around here it isn't common

place but animals get sick.

Debbie Chikousky

Manitoba, Canada

" A successful man is one who can build a firm

foundation with the bricks that others throw at him. "

-- Brinkley--

Re:Healthy milk vs milk yield

>

>>

>> Grass fed cows can get mastitis too.

>> -Jenn

>

> Exactly, and I don't want to drink raw milk from cows or herds that

> get mastitis.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>

> Archive search: http://onibasu.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

As I understand your statements you believe, strongly, that what your

farmer is doing is so fantastic that his cows have never and will

never become ill. Be realistic. No amount of " good management " will

keep animals, or people for that matter, from ever becoming ill. If

you in truth believe this than you are not facing reality and, in my

opinion, have your head buried in the sand.

Belinda

> > Beinda

>

> Do you have any rational basis for thinking that my head is stuck in

> the sand?

> I have no need to " trust " my farmer. I know the agronomic and

> pedological choices he makes and the results speak for themselves.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I havn't seen all the posts here, but want to say that I practice holistic husbandry only, no medications at all.   I drink the raw milk daily, and just have a few goats to milk....usually 2 - 5 in milk.   My oldest goat, Dali, has given me 6 or 7 years now, faithfully, daily, delicious non goaty milk, drying up only 3 months during later stage pregnancy.   She has never been sick,  once I think her milk was slightly "off" and I cleared it up right away with more apple cider vinegar.  I manage my small herd for health.  The yield varies from 1/2 gal to 1.5 gals a day per Mini Nubian goat.....Trivia andraAs I understand your statements you believe, strongly, that what yourfarmer is doing is so fantastic that his cows have never and willnever become ill. Be realistic. No amount of "good management" willkeep animals, or people for that matter, from ever becoming ill. Ifyou in truth believe this than you are not facing reality and, in myopinion, have your head buried in the sand. Belinda> > Beinda> > Do you have any rational basis for thinking that my head is stuck in> the sand?> I have no need to "trust" my farmer. I know the agronomic and> pedological choices he makes and the results speak for themselves.> >

[Guest guest]

There is a direct ratio between the number of animals and the amount of illness you will experience. 5 goats for me does not constitute a herd. I don't mean to be rude for you that is a great number, but you will experience a great deal less illness as a person with 15 or 20 goats. This number is more in line with what I consider a herd situation and the experiences you have with this number of animals is greatly different than a person with only 3 to 5 animals.

Chris

I havn't seen all the posts here, but want to say that I practice holistic husbandry only, no medications at all. I drink the raw milk daily, and just have a few goats to milk....usually 2 - 5 in milk. My oldest goat, Dali, has given me 6 or 7 years now, faithfully, daily, delicious non goaty milk, drying up only 3 months during later stage pregnancy. She has never been sick, once I think her milk was slightly "off" and I cleared it up right away with more apple cider vinegar. I manage my small herd for health. The yield varies from 1/2 gal to 1.5 gals a day per Mini Nubian goat.....Trivia andra

As I understand your statements you believe, strongly, that what yourfarmer is doing is so fantastic that his cows have never and willnever become ill. Be realistic. No amount of "good management" willkeep animals, or people for that matter, from ever becoming ill. Ifyou in truth believe this than you are not facing reality and, in myopinion, have your head buried in the sand. Belinda> > Beinda> > Do you have any rational basis for thinking that my head is stuck in> the sand?> I have no need to "trust" my farmer. I know the agronomic and> pedological choices he makes and the results speak for themselves.> >

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[Guest guest]

>

> As I understand your statements you believe, strongly, that what your

> farmer is doing is so fantastic that his cows have never and will

> never become ill. Be realistic. No amount of " good management " will

> keep animals, or people for that matter, from ever becoming ill. If

> you in truth believe this than you are not facing reality and, in my

> opinion, have your head buried in the sand.

>

> Belinda

If you ever wish to get your head out of the sand and look at the

evidence you are wrong you might read, " Soil Grass and Cancer " by

Andre Voisin. On the cover it states, " The health of animals and man

is linked to the mineral balance of the soil " . Inside the unopened

book is the evidence to support that statement.

Oh yes, he is the same Voisin well known in organic circles for his

study of cows at grass. His book on the subject, " Grass Productivity "

became my farmer's " bible " when he was 19 years old. With your head so

deep in the sand I would doubt you have read that either. Any farmer

with cows on pasture who doesn't read and learn from that book because

their head is in the sand is going to have a much tougher time with

the health of both the cows and the grass. If a consultant does not

own a copy of it, I wouldn't think much of his advice. I own a copy of

both books and have read both although I am neither a farmer nor a

consultant.

I realize that there will be lots of farmers taking advantage of the

raw milk movement for the money they can make. Putting cows on grass

is a necessary step in producing clean nutritious milk but it is not

close to sufficient for the production of clean nutritious milk. I can

easily guide raw milk consumers to help them decide whether the farmer

they plan to buy raw milk from is really interested in nutritious raw

milk or whether the farmer is just a scammer interested in their money.

[Guest guest]

That may be true for animals which have been bred for heavy production but I am not convinced that you cannot have a mastitis free herd with animals which are more modest producers and are given good nutrition in a low stress environment. We only have three dairy cows at present and they are low producers. We bought 43 Brown Swiss-beef cross cows with this place years ago and kept them for about three years. All grass fed and no mastitis.

One of the Red Poll cows we recently bought has a bad quarter. I assume she had mastitis. She came from a herd of about 250 cows. The former owner told me that with the three good quarters, she still weaned the heaviest calf of his herd last year. I know we are getting into genetics of some heavy milking cattle by beef standards anyway. I hope to stay out of mastitis trouble through good nutrition. I expect to find out next year at calving season.

Cleve

Re:Healthy milk vs milk yield> >>>> Grass fed cows can get mastitis too.>> -Jenn>> Exactly, and I don't want to drink raw milk from cows or herds that> get mastitis.>> >>>> ------------------------------------>> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/>> Archive search: http://onibasu.com>>

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

>

> You will never convince the government, the same government that is

> advocating quantity of milk over quality of milk, to do any sort of

> independent study examining how and why clean, nutritious raw milk

> could be produced. The government is too entrenched in Big Ag, and Big

> Ag in the government, to allow this. I'd suggest to you instead that

> you focus on educating the people - the potential consumers - on what

> your farmer is doing and why this is the way to produce milk (to be

> sold raw or pasteurized), safely and humanely. I know some don't place

> a whole lot of credence on ancedotal evidence, but I think it'll go a

> lot further with many people than any government-sponsored study

> would. People know in their heart of hearts what is right and what is

> wrong.

>

> Also, my cows don't get mastitis, they haven't for a long time. I was

> just curious on what your stance was.

Hi Cheryl:

I do not underestimate the difficulty of convincing any government

anywhere of anything. In understanding the difficulty of the task,

however, I have studied the situation from as many points of view as I

can, including the ag industry's. I realize governments, i.e.

political parties, serve the organizations that donate to their

political campaigns rather than the people who vote for them.

Sometimes, however, as an idea takes hold of the public, like say

" global warming " , governments are forced to at least appear to do

something regardless of what their campaign contributors say.

In the case of raw milk, there is a growing interest in it in both

Canada and the United States. If harsher crackdowns against farmers do

not slow down or end this trend, eventually they may be forced to do

something or at least appear to do something. Often in cases like this

they like to do long term studies to determine the feasibility of an

action to avoid the need to really do something while their party is

in power. The time of the study allows them time to further determine

what the consequences will be with voters depending on whether their

party supports or opposes the proposed change. Politicians are not

leaders, they are followers. They follow voter trends, they don't

cause them.

With respect to big ag, or more particularly the big dairy industry,

they are dealing with a trend away from milk from " health " information

on cholesterol. If raw milk becomes legal, they may actually see a

potential rise in milk sales through selling raw milk. At first they

may look at it as niche area in their industry but what would they

think if the people drinking their raw milk actually got healthier?

That is why I think it is necessary to revise the law for regulated

raw milk to require the production of clean raw milk which will, of

course, be nutritious at the same time. If the industry decides to

sell raw milk at some point, they must not be allowed to get away with

what they get away with currently in selling organic milk, best

described as malnutrition without poison, imo.

As far as educating consumers goes, I am always doing that. The first

thing I impress upon them is the fact that in order to produce clean

nutritious raw milk a farmer must reduce his yield per lactation and,

as a result, the consumer must be willing to pay more for the milk. I

also tell them that just because a farmer has " grass fed " raw milk, it

doesn't mean the farmer is producing clean nutritious raw milk. In

this area I wrote a consumer guide and the Price-Pottenger Foundation

published it in one of their quarterly newsletters.

I think it's great that your cows don't get mastitis and that is a

great indication of the quality of milk you sell to consumers. I would

not, however, tell others on this list that your cows don't get

mastitis. They would rather tell you that you are " fibbing " rather

than to learn from you how you have done it.

Oh, one more thing, I try to tell vegans and animal welfare people who

are opposed to drinking milk because the animals are not treated

humanely that in order to produce nutritious milk you can not treat

animals inhumanely. The health problems caused by drinking milk are

caused by the lack of nutritional value of the milk produced when

animals are treated inhumanely. Of course they don't listen to me.

[Guest guest]

I've read " Soil, Grass and Cancer, along with other books by people

interested in improving conditions for livestock as well as humans and

we have been improving soil conditions on our farm slowly since we

purchased it 10 years ago. We don't have a tough time with the health

of our animals.

What I am trying to get you to admit is that no amount of good

husbandry or soil or mineral balance will keep animals health 100% of

time time. But, I'm coming to realize that there's really no way

that's going to happen so I'll stop now.

Belinda

>

> If you ever wish to get your head out of the sand and look at the

> evidence you are wrong you might read, " Soil Grass and Cancer " by

> Andre Voisin. On the cover it states, " The health of animals and man

> is linked to the mineral balance of the soil " . Inside the unopened

> book is the evidence to support that statement.

> Oh yes, he is the same Voisin well known in organic circles for his

> study of cows at grass. His book on the subject, " Grass Productivity "

> became my farmer's " bible " when he was 19 years old. With your head so

> deep in the sand I would doubt you have read that either. Any farmer

> with cows on pasture who doesn't read and learn from that book because

> their head is in the sand is going to have a much tougher time with

> the health of both the cows and the grass. If a consultant does not

> own a copy of it, I wouldn't think much of his advice. I own a copy of

> both books and have read both although I am neither a farmer nor a

> consultant.

> I realize that there will be lots of farmers taking advantage of the

> raw milk movement for the money they can make. Putting cows on grass

> is a necessary step in producing clean nutritious milk but it is not

> close to sufficient for the production of clean nutritious milk. I can

> easily guide raw milk consumers to help them decide whether the farmer

> they plan to buy raw milk from is really interested in nutritious raw

> milk or whether the farmer is just a scammer interested in their money.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Belinda, let me disagree with you, I have my health (my own health at 64 yo) because of my care in diet and choices, like raw milk.   Over the years I have had many challenges and can tell you that if I had pursued the medications route, I would not be alive today.Husbandry is 99.99% what gives healthy stock.....the rest is genetics and animals need to be culled. It's not just "well being" anymore, it is Life.....so get real (like look into consequences, side effects, ongoing problems, if you can get the real info).....Trivia andraI've read "Soil, Grass and Cancer, along with other books by peopleinterested in improving conditions for livestock as well as humans andwe have been improving soil conditions on our farm slowly since wepurchased it 10 years ago. We don't have a tough time with the healthof our animals.What I am trying to get you to admit is that no amount of goodhusbandry or soil or mineral balance will keep animals health 100% oftime time. But, I'm coming to realize that there's really no waythat's going to happen so I'll stop now.Belinda> > If you ever wish to get your head out of the sand and look at the> evidence you are wrong you might read, "Soil Grass and Cancer" by> Andre Voisin. On the cover it states, "The health of animals and man> is linked to the mineral balance of the soil". Inside the unopened> book is the evidence to support that statement.> Oh yes, he is the same Voisin well known in organic circles for his> study of cows at grass. His book on the subject, "Grass Productivity"> became my farmer's "bible" when he was 19 years old. With your head so> deep in the sand I would doubt you have read that either. Any farmer> with cows on pasture who doesn't read and learn from that book because> their head is in the sand is going to have a much tougher time with> the health of both the cows and the grass. If a consultant does not> own a copy of it, I wouldn't think much of his advice. I own a copy of> both books and have read both although I am neither a farmer nor a> consultant.> I realize that there will be lots of farmers taking advantage of the> raw milk movement for the money they can make. Putting cows on grass> is a necessary step in producing clean nutritious milk but it is not> close to sufficient for the production of clean nutritious milk. I can> easily guide raw milk consumers to help them decide whether the farmer> they plan to buy raw milk from is really interested in nutritious raw> milk or whether the farmer is just a scammer interested in their money.> >

[Guest guest]

>

> I've read " Soil, Grass and Cancer, along with other books by people

> interested in improving conditions for livestock as well as humans and

> we have been improving soil conditions on our farm slowly since we

> purchased it 10 years ago. We don't have a tough time with the health

> of our animals.

>

> What I am trying to get you to admit is that no amount of good

> husbandry or soil or mineral balance will keep animals health 100% of

> time time. But, I'm coming to realize that there's really no way

> that's going to happen so I'll stop now.

>

> Belinda

While it is great that you have read " Soil Grass and Cancer " , I find

it amazing that after reading it that you take the position you do. It

seems to me that anyone with moderate comprehension skills would

discover the relationship between the health of animals and man and

soil fertility. If you have read the book but don't own a copy you

might consider buying a copy and rereading it. Myself, I have read and

reread it many times because there is so much in it.

Some quotes from the book that made a big impression on me:

At the conclusion of chapter 5- " This helps one understand the ancient

proverb, 'The same soil makes animal and man', which, stated in more

scientific, but unfortunately more prosaic, modern terms would read,

'Animals and man are the biochemical photograph of the soil.' "

At the conclusion of chapter 27- " All these observations serve to

illustrate how very different results can be obtained from trials

based on a foodstuff so variable, although identical in appearance. It

cannot be stated too often, nor sufficiently stressed, that the

progress of biological and medical sciences must be necessarily slow

so long as no consideration is given, either in experimentation or in

dietetics, to the pedological and agronomic origin of the foodstuffs

employed. "

At the conclusion of chapter 43- " For all time the soil will remain

the very basis of our life, in every sense of the word and from all

points of view. "

From chapter 50- " Questions of deficiency in agricultural products

become subjects of interest only when they find expression in a

commercial loss. As long as it is only a matter of a lower 'biological

value' for man, no one is concerned. "

The latter, of course, it well illustrated by the Ministry of

Agriculture where I live with their position on mastitis.

If we don't know how to create soil that creates healthy animals and

man, should we be surprised? You seldom get right answers if you are

asking the wrong questions.

If you order " Soil Grass and Cancer " from Acres, U.S.A., I would

suggest ordering the four volumes of " The Albrecht Papers " too.

Albrecht, Voison, Price, Pottenger and Gerson all share the same point

of view expressed in Albrecht's words:

" It's not the overpowering invader we must fear but the weakened

condition of the victim. "

[Guest guest]

Okay so enlighten us. How does this farmer manage to NEVER have a sick cow?

Debbie Chikousky

Manitoba, Canada

" A successful man is one who can build a firm

foundation with the bricks that others throw at him. "

-- Brinkley--

>

> The raw milk I drink comes from a herd without health issues. I know

> how the farmer has accomplished this. If you have health issues in

> your herd, it would indicate you aren't doing everything right with

> respect to nutrition. In my earlier post I pointed out the Ontario

> Ministry of Agriculture advises farmers to feed for yield at the

> expense of health. If you are feeding for yield or choosing the breed

> for yield, you may be making the same choice and thus you should

> expect health problems in the herd.

>

[Guest guest]

We have had beef cows for 15 years now and this was our first year to have a cow with mastitis. Why, well I think she injured her udder initially on a stick from the looks of things, big bruise and a scrape and then it became mastitis. It has been treated and she is fine. That particular cow is 15 years old and has never been sick a day in her life either.

We lost a ewe this year because she threw herself down on a milking pail and badly bruised her udder which then developed mastitis. First time in 15 years too. We rarely have an issue here that isn't because of something like that but we have had the odd mastitis that is unexplained over the years.

I agree with Belinda. If you work with animals long enough lots of things can happen.

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canada"A successful man is one who can build a firm

foundation with the bricks that others throw at him.”

-- Brinkley--

Re:Healthy milk vs milk yield> >>>> Grass fed cows can get mastitis too.>> -Jenn>> Exactly, and I don't want to drink raw milk from cows or herds that> get mastitis.>> >>>> ------------------------------------>> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/>> Archive search: http://onibasu.com>>

[Guest guest]

>

> Okay so enlighten us. How does this farmer manage to NEVER have a

sick cow?

What is interesting to me is that this farmer came to Canada from

Europe in 1983 and bought a dairy farm with a milk quota and a typical

Holstein herd. Having had low production Brown Swiss in Europe, he was

quite surprised by what he quickly saw with the health of this herd.

The Holstein herd average per lactation was 6900 litres with the top

producing cow producing 9000 litres. His Brown Swiss herd in Europe

averaged 3200 litres per lactation. Within two weeks of purchasing the

farm, the top producing cow dropped dead from toxic mastitis in about

24 hours. He learned from that that when a cow gets toxic mastitis you

must take immediate action or lose the cow. He told me some of the

problems the herd suffered from were mastitis, pink eye and warble

fly. Being pragmatic, he realized if he did not treat these problems,

he would likely lose half the herd.

In Europe he had practiced biodynamic organic Demeter farming. After a

time, he came to realize that it would take forever with this Holstein

herd to get where he wanted to be. As a result, he purchased a

Tarentaise bull so the herd genetics started to move away from the

Holstein genetics. After a group of farmers from Quebec had a tour of

the farm, one of the farmers took him aside and told him that with

what he was trying to accomplish, he would be better off using the

Canadienne breed of cow. As a result, he went to the Gaspe Peninsula

in Quebec and purchased 12 pregnant female Canadienne cows from

several farms. One farmer that he bought several cows from indicated

that if one particular cow had a bull calf, that should be the future

bull for the farm. The farmer believes your bull should be born on

your farm. Seven females and five males were born and one male was

from the desired female. This male later became the bull for the farm,

as intended.

The next year these females were bred by the Tarentaise bull. The

genetics were now a mixture of three breeds, but after that first

Canadienne bull became the bull for the farm, the genetics moved more

and more towards the Canadienne. Also, at the same time, the average

lactation for the herd was moving down and the health of the herd was

moving up. The current lactation herd average is about 4100 litres

with a 4600 litre top producer.

His pasture management was taken from Voisin's book, " Grass

Productivity " . The previous owner of the farm had reseeded the

pastures every 6 years. He allowed whatever was growing in the

pastures to grow, with no reseeding ever. As a biodynamic farmer, his

fertilizer program was to spray BD500 and BD501 along with using the

compost preps. In addition, of course, manure from the barn in winter

was composted and returned to the fields.

In 1994, two days after a TV documentary on his farm, health

authorities and the police raided his farm. As a result of legal

charges and mainly because most of his customers left him, he was

forced to sell half the farm and most of the herd to stay afloat

financially. From a herd of 50 producing cows, he was down to one bull

and four cows. He was determined to continue in spite of the ordeal he

went through. He said his greatest enemies in this ordeal were other

Ontario dairy farmers. Other farmers and the dairy industry probably

don't like someone exposing the truth about what they are really

doing, I guess.

The current herd is over 30 producing cows. Some producing cows have

been culled and are sold as meat. All the genetics in the herd are

from that one bull and those four cows. There are no genetics in the

herd from outside those five animals. The farmer, of course, based

this breeding program on his nutrition program. Heifers have their

first calf at three years of age. Calves are born, licked by the

mother and are up and nursing without assistance within 15 minutes

from birth. They nurse on their mother for the first three or four

days, then for the next three weeks they are fed their mother's milk

by humans to get them accustomed to humans. Then for six months they

are fed milk from the herd. Hay or grass is eaten after three weeks.

The diet is almost entirely grass. In season the animals are on grass

24/7, only coming to the barn to be milked. No water is provided in

the pastures. They have access to water when they come to the barn to

be milked. In winter they are fed hay grown on the farm any they spend

a few hours outside the barn every day regardless of the weather. He

plants 7 or 8 varieties in his hay fields but he has not got back to

me yet with the list of varieties. In winter the animals receive a

handful of grain once a day. If I remember right, the grain is oats.

No other type of grain is ever fed, especially not corn or corn

silage. No hybrids are grown on this farm. This farmer knows that

hybrids are guaranteed malnutrition and doesn't fall for the yield at

the expense of nutrition scam that other farmers fall for. If organic

farmers are interested in nutrition, they don't grow hybrids. If

organic farm organizations ever get interested in nutrition, they will

prohibit the growing of hybrids on organic farms.

The rational pasture rotation based on Voisin's work is done in 21

paddocks, using movable electric wire fencing. Animals are usually

left on the pasture for two days and occasionally three at most. He

has horses that follow the cows on the pastures and they stay for two

days to " clean up " the pasture.

Interestingly one area in what is now pasture had severed as a market

garden. As it came to be used as pasture, milk thistle showed up in

the field but after a period of time it disappeared from the field. As

Albrecht states and backs up with repeatable scientific

experimental evidence, the weeds the cows refuse to eat move in when

the soil fertility moves out, so if you want the weeds to move out,

you need to move the soil fertility back in. If you have plants in

your pasture that cows refuse to eat because they know the nutritional

value of the plant is not work the eating of the plant, then even the

plants they do eat are of lowered nutritional value and you have a

soil fertility problem, not a weed problem.

One of the things the farmer was going to get back to me on, but

hasn't yet, was when was the last occurrence of any of the diseases

that he used to see on the farm. I do know that it has been about 18

years since he had hooves trimmed. Also, the consumption of hay in

winter is down by about one third, indicating, of course, that the

soil fertility has also been improving in the hay fields.

I don't have with me right now soil tests done eleven years apart on

the farm, with the latter being done two summers ago. What I do

remember was the high percentage base saturation of magnesium in the

first tests, generally around 24%. When the farmer had the second

series of tests done, I expected that since the health of the herd was

continuing to improve during this time as soil fertility improved, I

would see a drop in the base saturation percentage. I was surprised to

see, however, almost no change in the magnesium base saturation

percentage. Organic matter, however, increased by about 25% from 4 and

change % to 5 and change %, if I remember correctly. As Albrecht

explains with an experimental demonstration, minerals are more

available to plants from organic matter than they are from soil

mineral treatments. The company that did the second set of soil tests

reported that the phosphorus was so low that a soil phosphorus

application was needed. The farmer spoke to me about this and asked me

what I thought. I reminded of him what Voisin said in " Soil Grass and

Cancer " , that animals and man are the judge of nutrition, not the

chemist. I reminded the farmer that during the eleven years between

the soil tests his animals had been getting healthier. I suggested

that when the health of his animals starts to decline he might start

worrying about what mineral treatments might be appropriate for his

fields. He though about it for a time and later reported to me that he

wasn't going to do anything about the phosphorus level in the soil

tests. I would suggest the chemical readings in the soil tests for

both magnesium and phosphorus have less impact because of the high

level of organic matter in the soil. Just, as Albrecht explains, a

high CEC means you do not need to pay such close attention to the

relative balance in the base saturation mineral percentages.

Oh, I almost forgot, the farmer has done one soil treatment that is

not biodynamic. Some time ago he added about 80 tons of paramagnetic

rock to the fields. This was done mainly by mixing the rock with the

manure from the barn in the winter and then later spreading the manure

on the fields. The following spring after the first application of

rock to the fields, the farmer noted the condition of the animals

coming out the the winter had taken a jump that visitors to the farm

commented on. After losing their winter coat they looked like they

were brushed for a show but no brush had touched them. The farmer

wondered if the rock had anything to do with this. There was no direct

evidence in the fields from the biology that anything had changed.

With my head planted firmly in the sand up to my waist,

[Guest guest]

Why did his customers leave him? Because of the raid? Was he doing something illegally?

In 1994, two days after a TV documentary on his farm, health

authorities and the police raided his farm. As a result of legal

charges and mainly because most of his customers left him, he was

forced to sell half the farm and most of the herd to stay afloat

financially.

[Guest guest]

So he is still selling it illegally or he does shares now?

Selling unpasteurized milk is illegal here. I don't think at the time

he had sold cow shares but had some sort of cow lease. He was

convicted of selling unpasteurized milk in court. I did not go to the

trial but I did go to the public hearing and spoke to him about Price

and Pottenger but his lawyer never tried to use that information, as

far as I know.

Some time after I started getting the raw milk in 2000, I asked him if

he remembered my speaking to him at the trial. He said he did and that

he still had the letter on file that I sent to him after the hearing.

In his words, the customers left him because of the "hassles" at the time.

Following these events he wrote a letter to the government saying that

he intended to keep providing raw milk and invited the government to

do a study of the benefits and risks with regards to his milk. I don't

think they ever answered that letter.

[Guest guest]

>>>>>What is interesting to me is that this farmer came to Canada from

Europe in 1983 and bought a dairy farm with a milk quota and a typical

Holstein herd. Having had low production Brown Swiss in Europe,......>>>>

That was great gary. Thanks for sharing that. If I get reincarnated I want

to be one of this farmer's cows.

A method of farming that we should all study.

.....sharon

[Guest guest]

, I am ordering the books as I have not read them. I do not

sell milk, but do feed my family and neighbors. I do say that I

have to agree with Debbie and Belinda. As a veterinarian and

working towards a biodynamic farm, I am doing everything I can to

keep my cows healthy. We try to keep our soil healthy, it was

pretty rough when we took over this farm, we keep them on pasture,

and we keep the milking area clean, as well as the area we process

our milk. However, I had a calf mangle a teat on one cow this year,

and we had a cow that was just dirty. She came to us as a 3 teater,

and was completely coated in manure (hubby rescued her on a farm

call), and we cleaned her up and babied her, and she gave us lots of

great milk, but she would find every fresh cow pie she could and lie

on it. We had 2 cows on a 20 acre pasture that had no mud holes

and she would come in with a caked udder nearly every night. We did

end up culling her and she never got mastitis here, but I can see

how easily it could have happened with her propensity for

dirt/manure. The other thing I think is important is to always

learn, and to always be willing to learn. I will gladly read the

reccommended books and I enjoy the dialog that goes on here, even

though we don't always agree.

Peace to all of you and yours, and happy healthy real milk drinking!

[Guest guest]

>

> , I am ordering the books as I have not read them. I do not

> sell milk, but do feed my family and neighbors. I do say that I

> have to agree with Debbie and Belinda. As a veterinarian and

> working towards a biodynamic farm, I am doing everything I can to

> keep my cows healthy. We try to keep our soil healthy, it was

> pretty rough when we took over this farm, we keep them on pasture,

> and we keep the milking area clean, as well as the area we process

> our milk. However, I had a calf mangle a teat on one cow this year,

> and we had a cow that was just dirty. She came to us as a 3 teater,

> and was completely coated in manure (hubby rescued her on a farm

> call), and we cleaned her up and babied her, and she gave us lots of

> great milk, but she would find every fresh cow pie she could and lie

> on it. We had 2 cows on a 20 acre pasture that had no mud holes

> and she would come in with a caked udder nearly every night. We did

> end up culling her and she never got mastitis here, but I can see

> how easily it could have happened with her propensity for

> dirt/manure. The other thing I think is important is to always

> learn, and to always be willing to learn. I will gladly read the

> reccommended books and I enjoy the dialog that goes on here, even

> though we don't always agree.

> Peace to all of you and yours, and happy healthy real milk drinking!

Hi :

Andre Voisin was a veterinarian too! Are you buying both " Soil Grass

and Cancer " and " Grass Productivity " ?

Also, the farmer I buy milk from is always willing to help other

farmers who are trying to reach the same goals he is trying to reach.

By the way, both his breeding program and pasture management are

ongoing projects, neither is finished.