Re: Best frypan for frying in ?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/20/03 3:09:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,

liberty@... writes:

> Yes, that's _my_ understanding, but I thought you were

> the chemist here. I think saying " carbonized fat " is

> like saying " fossilized dinosaur " . The fossil's not

> really a dinosaur anymore, just minerals in the shape

> of one. I assume that carbonized fat is likewise

> completely, or at least mostly, carbon without any

> actual fat left.

Well, I guess you didn't say " carbonated fat. " If you're inventing the word

I guess it can mean whatever you want. As far as precedent, " oxidized "

doesn't mean it turned to oxygen, which would be somewhat comparable, but I

suppose

carbonized works.

However, after the more thorough description, I would personally use " burnt

fat. "

>

> >Like, dehydrogenated then?

>

> Well, as I understand it, it's not a fat of any sort

> anymore, hydrogenated or otherwise.

Right I meant fat minus the hydrogen, which would be the carbon, since fats

are mostly carbon and hydrogen. " Burnt fat " still seems to work though :-p

Chris

[Guest guest]

>> Excess inorganic iron is clearly linked with heart disease.

>

>That's one for you then, but how much iron is excessive,

>and are iron pans really the source of it? People have

>been using cast iron for centuries with no apparent

>problems

Hmm ... and you'd have to wonder about most water

supplies (they are often high in iron) and water

pipes. And of course breakfast cereal, which has

so much iron in it you can pick it up with a magnet

(really, as iron filings!!!). And the bits that come off

the knife when you are cooking. And of course a lot

of vitamin tablets. The latter items of course most

people here would avoid naturally ...

Some people have a condition where they can't

remove iron from their systems and they DO

get too much of it. I don't know that anyone has

figured out why this happens though, or who is

at risk.

Anyway, I agree that cast iron is too heavy for

daily use. Also it warps. For steak, the steak

is barely in contact with the ridges and not

for very long, so I don't worry about it.

For most frying, I have a Sitram restaurant-quality

pan that is just wonderful (I think it was about $30

at Costco). It's not very heavy, it is aluminum-filled,

but it is heavy enough to stay put when I'm cooking.

From a theoretical viewpoint, I'd tend to agree

with DMM that enamel is best, but I can't see it

putting up with my sort of abuse. I did have some

Pyrex glass pans for awhile and they worked, sort

of.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

-

>People have been using cast iron for centuries with no apparent

>problems.

I have no idea exactly how much iron is released into food from cooking

with cast iron, however, even seasoned cast iron can impart a strongly

metallic taste to certain foods, so I suspect the amount is nontrivial and

not worth the risk. As to centuries of use, well, come on. We don't have

comprehensive health data for those centuries, and more to the point, the

data we do have indicates that plenty of people have been very unhealthy

for a long time. I don't think history offers us a conclusive indictment

of seasoned cast iron, but the available data strongly suggests

caution. People used to use lead makeup and drink wine from pewter cups too.

>My point is that someone who even occasionally frys with

>vegetable oil,

Who here does so?

>No, if anything it would be an argument against cooking

>with _fats_ at all. The damage to the small unsaturated

>fraction of solid fats mentioned here happens in any kind

>of pan.

Not necessarily so. In cast iron, fats are heated over and over and over

again and remain in the pan as part of the seasoning, presumably resulting

in cumulative damage to the fats. Yes, a large percentage is apparently

carbonized (due to extremely high cooking temperatures?) but that doesn't

mean the seasoning coating is pure carbon.

>and it's not heavy enough for even heating and thus the proper cooking of

>many sorts of things. If you can make it work for you though, I'm glad to

>hear it.

Enamel is just a coating, and there can be good enamel and bad enamel. I

have a very heavy enameled Le Creuset skillet that's terrific. It heats

evenly, I don't usually have to use high temperatures, and it's never

chipped. I'm very happy with it, and the only food it hasn't done well

with is scrambled eggs. Everything else cleans up like a dream as long as

I put water in the pan as soon as I take the food out if there's been any

sticking or charring.

-

[Guest guest]

>

> I see no reason to for there to be ANY downside at all for the

> most popular pan in the house regardless of how small.

Well as I said, I don't see any down side, small

or otherwise, but of course if you have any doubts

about it, I certainly wouldn't want you to use cast

iron. I'm not trying to convince you to use it, I

just object to the illogical notion that there should

be any concern about oxidized vegetable oil.

> Vegetable oil compared to the amount of pufa in butter or lard or

> coconut oil is an absurd comparison.

Not really. What is absurd is comparing the few

molecules (I've been saying " few molecules " for

the sake of argument, in fact there are probably

none at all left in the seasoning after a few uses)

of vegetable oil left in the seasoning of a pan,

to the astronomically greater amount to be found

in even one tablespoon of butter or lard. Although

I think we may be having a communication block here.

You do understand that we're talking about using

the vegetable oil only _one_ time in the entire

life of the pan, and only to season it, do you not?

We're not saying that one must fry with vegetable

oil every time one uses a cast iron pan. I will

accept that one might have fears about iron oxide,

but to use your word again, it's absolutely absurd

to fear the minute amount of vegetable oil used only

_once_ for the initial seasoning of a pan.

> We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the

> mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in

> need of any more iron.

I'm not a culture, I'm an individual, and I don't

know of any foods that I eat that have been enriched

with iron. I also have known, and heard through

acquaintances of, several people who were low in

iron and who were taking supplements for it. Though

actually I mean to concede _this_ particular to you,

since there actually _is_ iron in a cast iron pan.

However there is absolutely no rational reason to

fear the tiny amount of vegetable oil involved in

the one-time initial seasoning of one.

[Guest guest]

, the notion that because some people fry in vegetable oil, other

people shouldn't be worried about oxidizing vegetable oil in cast iron is

what's illogical.

>I

>just object to the illogical notion that there should

>be any concern about oxidized vegetable oil.

-

[Guest guest]

We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the

mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in need

of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust.

DMM

-------------------------------------------

Only me ;-) I'm anaemic. Guess I didn't eat enough iron-enriched processed

foods in my vegetarian days.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

>

> I have no idea exactly how much iron is released into food from

> cooking with cast iron, however, even seasoned cast iron can

> impart a strongly metallic taste to certain foods,

Such a taste indicates that your pan is not properly

seasoned, or that you're trying to use it for boiling

things, especially acidic things like tomatoes. I

never use cast iron for anything but frying.

> so I suspect the amount is nontrivial and not worth the risk.

Note that I've already conceded one might get trace

amounts of iron from using cast iron, so I don't care

to pursue that point any further.

> >My point is that someone who even occasionally frys with

> >vegetable oil,

>

> Who here does so?

I assumed that at least _some_ people occasionally

used _some_ vegetable oil. I'm sure that I read at

least a few people describing Italian dishes they

had prepared. However that point is moot anyway,

since even those who use only solid fats will be

getting some of the same kind of damaged fats as well,

and in amounts many times greater than any that could

possible come from the seasoning on a pan, which was

the real point.

> Not necessarily so. In cast iron, fats are heated over and over

> and over again and remain in the pan as part of the seasoning,

> presumably resulting in cumulative damage to the fats.

No, a cumulative conversion to carbon.

> Yes, a large percentage is apparently carbonized (due to extremely

> high cooking temperatures?) but that doesn't mean the seasoning

> coating is pure carbon.

Yes, almost entirely pure carbon.

> Enamel is just a coating, and there can be good enamel and bad

> enamel. I have a very heavy enameled Le Creuset skillet that's

> terrific. It heats evenly, I don't usually have to use high

> temperatures, and it's never chipped. I'm very happy with it,

> and the only food it hasn't done well with is scrambled eggs.

> Everything else cleans up like a dream as long as I put water in

> the pan as soon as I take the food out if there's been any

> sticking or charring.

It sounds like there's much better enamel ware available

than the sort with which I'm familiar. I'm glad to hear

it.

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

>

> , the notion that because some people fry in vegetable oil,

> other people shouldn't be worried about oxidizing vegetable oil

> in cast iron is what's illogical.

I assume you're trying to say that _I_ expressed such a notion?

I didn't, and there's really no way of confusing what I _did_

write with that, except willfully. I said that people who even

_occasionally_ fry in even _small_ amounts of vegetable oil, are

getting more damaged fat therefrom than they could ever get from

their seasoned cast iron, those frying with vegetable oil and

those worried about oxidized oil _clearly_ being the same people

in my example. There's no justification for your introduction

of " other people " here. Did you actually read the page I cited

at http://www.melindalee.com/Cast-Iron.html ? All of my comments

in this thread have taken the facts on that page as a point of

departure, and were directed at people who read and understood

the information there. If you didn't actually read it, then at

least I'm a little better able to understand why you're garbling

my intent, but I refuse to discuss this topic any further with

anyone who hasn't first familiarized themself with the information

there. It can only lead to further confusion, and who needs that?

:-)

Davi

[Guest guest]

-

You said we shouldn't be worried about the amount of vegetable oil in a

seasoned cast iron pan because the results of frying in vegetable oil are

worse. Perhaps you assumed that we all fry in vegetable oil, but otherwise

you're saying that because Group X fries in vegetable oil, Group Y (which

may or may not overlap at all with Group X) shouldn't worry about seasoning.

>I assume you're trying to say that _I_ expressed such a notion?

>I didn't, and there's really no way of confusing what I _did_

>write with that, except willfully.

-

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> -

>

> You said we shouldn't be worried about the amount of vegetable oil

> in a seasoned cast iron pan because the results of frying in

> vegetable oil are worse.

No my friend I did not say that. Let me rephrase it in such

a way as to hopefully avoid further confusion. I'm saying

that even the largest amount of oxidized fat that one could

ever possibly get from the seasoning on one's cast iron pan,

pales in comparison to that that inevitably comes from frying

in _any_ kind of fat, vegetable or animal, though of course

_especially_ vegetable.

> Perhaps you assumed that we all fry in vegetable oil, but otherwise

> you're saying that because Group X fries in vegetable oil, Group Y

> (which may or may not overlap at all with Group X) shouldn't worry

> about seasoning.

No, let me again rephrase. I'm saying that anybody who does

ever fry in vegetable oil, note this doesn't include anybody

who doesn't, is already consuming more oxidized fat than they

could ever get from the seasoning on their cast iron pan. I

then further extended this to include solid or animal fats as

well, though of course with them the damage is to a much lesser

degree. Nevertheless, even with animal fats, it's still more

than could ever be got from the seasoning on a cast iron pan,

which is CARBON, not fat.

[Guest guest]

Oddly, I was always anemic until I quit eating processed/enriched foods. Now

that I only eat natural foods I am no longer anemic. I also started using cast

iron again recently. Amy

Re: Re: Best frypan for frying in ?

We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the

mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in need

of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust.

DMM

-------------------------------------------

Only me ;-) I'm anaemic. Guess I didn't eat enough iron-enriched processed

foods in my vegetarian days.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

Does a well-seasoned, black cast-iron pan feel greasy at all? I

thought the seasoning was partly grease, which imparts the non-stick

quality. , do you maintain that the black is all carbon and is

also naturally non-stick? It seems to me that there would always be a

nominal amount of grease left over from the previous frying, although

that could be kept to a minimum with proper rinsing and wiping. Now,

if you're cooking with animal fat or coconut oil, that recent

left-over fat is probably going to be mostly fine, unless you'd been

cooking at very high temps, in which case *some* of it might be

oxidized. Or maybe it would carbonized already. Clearly, none of us

knows enough about the chemical behavior of fats under heat to answer

this, yet.

Overall, I think 's convincing me that cast-iron is perfectly

safe to use for regular frying.

Tom

> > -

> >

> > You said we shouldn't be worried about the amount of vegetable oil

> > in a seasoned cast iron pan because the results of frying in

> > vegetable oil are worse.

>

> No my friend I did not say that. Let me rephrase it in such

> a way as to hopefully avoid further confusion. I'm saying

> that even the largest amount of oxidized fat that one could

> ever possibly get from the seasoning on one's cast iron pan,

> pales in comparison to that that inevitably comes from frying

> in _any_ kind of fat, vegetable or animal, though of course

> _especially_ vegetable.

>

> > Perhaps you assumed that we all fry in vegetable oil, but otherwise

> > you're saying that because Group X fries in vegetable oil, Group Y

> > (which may or may not overlap at all with Group X) shouldn't worry

> > about seasoning.

>

> No, let me again rephrase. I'm saying that anybody who does

> ever fry in vegetable oil, note this doesn't include anybody

> who doesn't, is already consuming more oxidized fat than they

> could ever get from the seasoning on their cast iron pan. I

> then further extended this to include solid or animal fats as

> well, though of course with them the damage is to a much lesser

> degree. Nevertheless, even with animal fats, it's still more

> than could ever be got from the seasoning on a cast iron pan,

> which is CARBON, not fat.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/21/03 1:59:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,

liberty@... writes:

> True. I'm waiting for to finish college and figure it out

> for us. :-)

Oh, I'll never finish college ;-)

But I should have an answer by next semester! Organic is my only chem class

now, which may or may not contain an answer in the next few weeks (probably

not) and next semester I have three chem classes including orgo 2 and biochem

(also an independent study doing research into the different shapes of crystals

buckminsterfullerene will produce when dissolved in different solvents, plus

my non-chem load, physics 2, a & p2, and cell biology).

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Tom " <cassiusdio@g...>

wrote:

> Does a well-seasoned, black cast-iron pan feel greasy at all?

Not if it's wiped down well, just very very slick and smooth.

> I thought the seasoning was partly grease, which imparts the non-

> stick quality. , do you maintain that the black is all carbon

> and is also naturally non-stick?

It's hard to say. I don't really understand how any solid

object can be non-stick, including teflon. I suppose its

a matter of having a very very smooth surface that gives

nothing to grab onto, and one that tends not to chemically

interact with anything. Carbon is fairly chemically inert

if I'm not mistaken.

> It seems to me that there would always be a nominal amount of

> grease left over from the previous frying, although that could

> be kept to a minimum with proper rinsing and wiping.

Well, the way I use my pans, there's always some fat left,

intentionally, to help preserve the seasoning.

> Now, if you're cooking with animal fat or coconut oil, that recent

> left-over fat is probably going to be mostly fine,

Yes, and if you habitually cook with these fats, there going to

eventually form the basis of the finish anyway. I cook with

ghee, if you hadn't already guessed! :-)

> unless you'd been cooking at very high temps, in which case *some*

> of it might be oxidized. Or maybe it would carbonized already.

Yes, but I'm sure there's always some oxidized fat involved in

frying, so I don't worry about it too much. The pottery and

smooth flat stones used in prehistoric times would have had the

same kind of carbonized finish, though of course they weren't

iron.

> Clearly, none of us knows enough about the chemical behavior of

> fats under heat to answer this, yet.

True. I'm waiting for to finish college and figure it out

for us. :-)

> Overall, I think 's convincing me that cast-iron is perfectly

> safe to use for regular frying.

Well I'm not trying to pressure anybody to accept cast iron. I

just didn't understand the concern about the vegetable oil when

it was strictly a one time thing when you first buy a pan.

[Guest guest]

>

> Well I'm not trying to pressure anybody to accept cast iron. I

> just didn't understand the concern about the vegetable oil when

> it was strictly a one time thing when you first buy a pan.

>

No, no, it's just that I just bought a cast-iron pan and am

subconciously trying to avoid cognitive dissonance.

But yeah, I think we're right. *After* the pan's been thoroughly

broken in, there isn't really *any* iron coming in contact with your

food. The only other concern would be the possible presence of

oxidized fats on the surface of the pan, and as you've stated

repeatedly, the amounts of those that end up on your food are miniscule.

Tom

And who says that a man-made alloy, such as good old stainless steel,

isn't coming off into your food a little? I'd rather be putting extra

iron in my system than foreign SS. I read somewhere that Paleolithic

peoples were deficient in stainless steel, owing to the utter lack of

cookware made from it. Thank God for metallurgy.

[Guest guest]

even those who use only solid fats will be

> getting some of the same kind of damaged fats as well,

> and in amounts many times greater than any that could

> possible come from the seasoning on a pan, which was

> the real point.

============When comparing sat fats to pufa this point is completely

irrelevant. The sat fat provides a somewhat protective effect

against the oxidation and oxidative effect of the pufa inherent to

the primarily sat fat product. So in reality NO they are NOT

getting the same kind of damaged fats when PUFA is used alone.

DMM

[Guest guest]

This is the 2nd paragraph of the cited article on seasoning...

" There is really only one successful way to season a cast-iron

cooking utensil, and that is to use it, use it, use it. But until

the months and years have passed that are needed to properly do the

job through use, the iron must be coated with layer of something to

protect it from rust and prevent that metallic taste from

transferring to the food. "

If all that's there is carbon and there's neither oxidized fat or

iron exposure, what prey tell is happening " until the months and

years have passed that are needed to properly do the job through use "

Regardless of the small points in favor of this practice, I still

don't get why one would use an item so frequently that posed such

potential negative variables.

Here's what I would like. I'm going to send you a check, go

and buy a really really nice cast iron skillet and follow the

directions on the cited article to season the pan with vegetable or

mineral oil and please use it as often as you possibly can and in

about 12-24 months when its perfectly seasoned from use and

fully " carbonized " SEND IT TO ME and I would love to use it. Until

then I just can't see why one would want to use such a pan.

DMM

[Guest guest]

I'm always skeptical of the term anemic because most of the time the

doc and or the patient are referring to low hematocrit and this is

more often than not COMPLETELY UNRELATED to iron deficiency.

DMM

> Oddly, I was always anemic until I quit eating processed/enriched

foods. Now that I only eat natural foods I am no longer anemic. I

also started using cast iron again recently. Amy

> Re: Re: Best frypan for frying in ?

>

>

>

> We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of

the

> mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in

need

> of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust.

>

> DMM

>

>

> -------------------------------------------

>

> Only me ;-) I'm anaemic. Guess I didn't eat enough iron-

enriched processed foods in my vegetarian days.

>

> Filippa

>

>

[Guest guest]

Are there really any safe pans? It seems to me that any type of metal you

cook in could leach into your food. Couldn’t enamel leach or be scraped in

minute amounts into your food? Vision ware seems to be the only nonmetal

non-coated cookware I can find. From what I can tell they are not made

anymore. So short of not cooking at all I guess that I will just have to be

happy with what I have, which is a hodge podge of different metals,

including cast iron and stainless steel, and a few cheap enamel coated pots.

Perhaps someone knows of a place that sells glass type cookware?

[Guest guest]

-

So what is your assumption, " since frying is OK this must be OK too " ?

>Yes, but I'm sure there's always some oxidized fat involved in

>frying, so I don't worry about it too much.

-

[Guest guest]

I think I missed what other choices you recommended. I think some people were

looking for an alternative to grilling outside, like ways to cook steak,

hamburger, grilled chicken.

Michele

since there are clearly choices that do NOT present ANY downside

such as I have mentioned that simple avoidance of said materials

would be simple and wise.

DMM

\

[Guest guest]

I have read (and I wish I could tell you where now) that women do not have high

levels of iron because of menstruation, so if this was correct then cast iron

would be more desirable for them. Of course, this probably rules me out since

I'm the only female in my house so that would hardly be fair to all the guys.

Michele

We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the

mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in need

of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust.

DMM

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/21/03 9:32:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cassiusdio@... writes:

> You're taking 6+ classes next semester? Wow, that would be quite a load.

Well they all have labs too ;-)

Chris

[Guest guest]

>

> If all that's there is carbon and there's neither oxidized fat or

> iron exposure, what prey tell is happening " until the months and

> years have passed that are needed to properly do the job through

> use "

The months and years are necessary to produce a really good,

and reliably non-stick seasoning.

> Regardless of the small points in favor of this practice, I still

> don't get why one would use an item so frequently that posed such

> potential negative variables.

You're right. If there's any concern at all, then one shouldn't

use it.

> Here's what I would like. I'm going to send you a check,

> go and buy a really really nice cast iron skillet and follow the

> directions on the cited article to season the pan with vegetable

> or mineral oil and please use it as often as you possibly can and

> in about 12-24 months when its perfectly seasoned from use and

> fully " carbonized " SEND IT TO ME and I would love to use it.

> Until then I just can't see why one would want to use such a pan.

This is not what I want for you. As I've said, if there are any

concerns in one's mind at all, and one is satisfied with the non

iron ware they're using, then I would never recommend that they

use cast iron. That's never been my point. My point was solely

about scientific nit-picking on the matter of the chemistry of

fats involved. I would like, if possible, to turn the thread now

to speculation and experimentation on the possibility of creating

a similar carbonized surface on enamel or glassware, this might

be as good as the non-stick surface on an iron pan, but of course

there would be no worry about iron-poisoning. I also think that

such a thing would more closely resemble prehistoric cook ware

than anything else. Does anybody on the list with corningware or

something similar care to experiment with putting such a finish

on it? I think that such ware is too slick to be able to brush

a film of oil onto, so it might require filling the pot/pan with

as little oil as will evenly cover the bottom, and then burning it.

The slickness of the glass might make it impossible for the finish

to cling to the pan, and so a second stage of the experiment might

entail roughing up the surface first with sand paper or the like.

Any takers?

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> -

>

> So what is your assumption, " since frying is OK this must be OK

> too " ?

Oh gods I'm getting weary of this. :-(

IF one fries, and IF one isn't concerned about the miniscule

amount of oxidized fat that the process necessarily entails,

THEN, that SAME person has no reason to fear the far smaller

amount of OXIDIZED FAT _POSSIBLY_ left over from the seasoning

of their pan a week, a month, a decade earlier.

Please don't use cast iron pans .