Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 In a message dated 11/20/03 3:09:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, liberty@... writes: > Yes, that's _my_ understanding, but I thought you were > the chemist here. I think saying " carbonized fat " is > like saying " fossilized dinosaur " . The fossil's not > really a dinosaur anymore, just minerals in the shape > of one. I assume that carbonized fat is likewise > completely, or at least mostly, carbon without any > actual fat left. Well, I guess you didn't say " carbonated fat. " If you're inventing the word I guess it can mean whatever you want. As far as precedent, " oxidized " doesn't mean it turned to oxygen, which would be somewhat comparable, but I suppose carbonized works. However, after the more thorough description, I would personally use " burnt fat. " > > >Like, dehydrogenated then? > > Well, as I understand it, it's not a fat of any sort > anymore, hydrogenated or otherwise. Right I meant fat minus the hydrogen, which would be the carbon, since fats are mostly carbon and hydrogen. " Burnt fat " still seems to work though :-p Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 >> Excess inorganic iron is clearly linked with heart disease. > >That's one for you then, but how much iron is excessive, >and are iron pans really the source of it? People have >been using cast iron for centuries with no apparent >problems Hmm ... and you'd have to wonder about most water supplies (they are often high in iron) and water pipes. And of course breakfast cereal, which has so much iron in it you can pick it up with a magnet (really, as iron filings!!!). And the bits that come off the knife when you are cooking. And of course a lot of vitamin tablets. The latter items of course most people here would avoid naturally ... Some people have a condition where they can't remove iron from their systems and they DO get too much of it. I don't know that anyone has figured out why this happens though, or who is at risk. Anyway, I agree that cast iron is too heavy for daily use. Also it warps. For steak, the steak is barely in contact with the ridges and not for very long, so I don't worry about it. For most frying, I have a Sitram restaurant-quality pan that is just wonderful (I think it was about $30 at Costco). It's not very heavy, it is aluminum-filled, but it is heavy enough to stay put when I'm cooking. From a theoretical viewpoint, I'd tend to agree with DMM that enamel is best, but I can't see it putting up with my sort of abuse. I did have some Pyrex glass pans for awhile and they worked, sort of. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 - >People have been using cast iron for centuries with no apparent >problems. I have no idea exactly how much iron is released into food from cooking with cast iron, however, even seasoned cast iron can impart a strongly metallic taste to certain foods, so I suspect the amount is nontrivial and not worth the risk. As to centuries of use, well, come on. We don't have comprehensive health data for those centuries, and more to the point, the data we do have indicates that plenty of people have been very unhealthy for a long time. I don't think history offers us a conclusive indictment of seasoned cast iron, but the available data strongly suggests caution. People used to use lead makeup and drink wine from pewter cups too. >My point is that someone who even occasionally frys with >vegetable oil, Who here does so? >No, if anything it would be an argument against cooking >with _fats_ at all. The damage to the small unsaturated >fraction of solid fats mentioned here happens in any kind >of pan. Not necessarily so. In cast iron, fats are heated over and over and over again and remain in the pan as part of the seasoning, presumably resulting in cumulative damage to the fats. Yes, a large percentage is apparently carbonized (due to extremely high cooking temperatures?) but that doesn't mean the seasoning coating is pure carbon. >and it's not heavy enough for even heating and thus the proper cooking of >many sorts of things. If you can make it work for you though, I'm glad to >hear it. Enamel is just a coating, and there can be good enamel and bad enamel. I have a very heavy enameled Le Creuset skillet that's terrific. It heats evenly, I don't usually have to use high temperatures, and it's never chipped. I'm very happy with it, and the only food it hasn't done well with is scrambled eggs. Everything else cleans up like a dream as long as I put water in the pan as soon as I take the food out if there's been any sticking or charring. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 > > I see no reason to for there to be ANY downside at all for the > most popular pan in the house regardless of how small. Well as I said, I don't see any down side, small or otherwise, but of course if you have any doubts about it, I certainly wouldn't want you to use cast iron. I'm not trying to convince you to use it, I just object to the illogical notion that there should be any concern about oxidized vegetable oil. > Vegetable oil compared to the amount of pufa in butter or lard or > coconut oil is an absurd comparison. Not really. What is absurd is comparing the few molecules (I've been saying " few molecules " for the sake of argument, in fact there are probably none at all left in the seasoning after a few uses) of vegetable oil left in the seasoning of a pan, to the astronomically greater amount to be found in even one tablespoon of butter or lard. Although I think we may be having a communication block here. You do understand that we're talking about using the vegetable oil only _one_ time in the entire life of the pan, and only to season it, do you not? We're not saying that one must fry with vegetable oil every time one uses a cast iron pan. I will accept that one might have fears about iron oxide, but to use your word again, it's absolutely absurd to fear the minute amount of vegetable oil used only _once_ for the initial seasoning of a pan. > We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the > mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in > need of any more iron. I'm not a culture, I'm an individual, and I don't know of any foods that I eat that have been enriched with iron. I also have known, and heard through acquaintances of, several people who were low in iron and who were taking supplements for it. Though actually I mean to concede _this_ particular to you, since there actually _is_ iron in a cast iron pan. However there is absolutely no rational reason to fear the tiny amount of vegetable oil involved in the one-time initial seasoning of one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 , the notion that because some people fry in vegetable oil, other people shouldn't be worried about oxidizing vegetable oil in cast iron is what's illogical. >I >just object to the illogical notion that there should >be any concern about oxidized vegetable oil. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in need of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust. DMM ------------------------------------------- Only me ;-) I'm anaemic. Guess I didn't eat enough iron-enriched processed foods in my vegetarian days. Filippa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 --- In , Idol <Idol@c...> wrote: > > I have no idea exactly how much iron is released into food from > cooking with cast iron, however, even seasoned cast iron can > impart a strongly metallic taste to certain foods, Such a taste indicates that your pan is not properly seasoned, or that you're trying to use it for boiling things, especially acidic things like tomatoes. I never use cast iron for anything but frying. > so I suspect the amount is nontrivial and not worth the risk. Note that I've already conceded one might get trace amounts of iron from using cast iron, so I don't care to pursue that point any further. > >My point is that someone who even occasionally frys with > >vegetable oil, > > Who here does so? I assumed that at least _some_ people occasionally used _some_ vegetable oil. I'm sure that I read at least a few people describing Italian dishes they had prepared. However that point is moot anyway, since even those who use only solid fats will be getting some of the same kind of damaged fats as well, and in amounts many times greater than any that could possible come from the seasoning on a pan, which was the real point. > Not necessarily so. In cast iron, fats are heated over and over > and over again and remain in the pan as part of the seasoning, > presumably resulting in cumulative damage to the fats. No, a cumulative conversion to carbon. > Yes, a large percentage is apparently carbonized (due to extremely > high cooking temperatures?) but that doesn't mean the seasoning > coating is pure carbon. Yes, almost entirely pure carbon. > Enamel is just a coating, and there can be good enamel and bad > enamel. I have a very heavy enameled Le Creuset skillet that's > terrific. It heats evenly, I don't usually have to use high > temperatures, and it's never chipped. I'm very happy with it, > and the only food it hasn't done well with is scrambled eggs. > Everything else cleans up like a dream as long as I put water in > the pan as soon as I take the food out if there's been any > sticking or charring. It sounds like there's much better enamel ware available than the sort with which I'm familiar. I'm glad to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 --- In , Idol <Idol@c...> wrote: > > , the notion that because some people fry in vegetable oil, > other people shouldn't be worried about oxidizing vegetable oil > in cast iron is what's illogical. I assume you're trying to say that _I_ expressed such a notion? I didn't, and there's really no way of confusing what I _did_ write with that, except willfully. I said that people who even _occasionally_ fry in even _small_ amounts of vegetable oil, are getting more damaged fat therefrom than they could ever get from their seasoned cast iron, those frying with vegetable oil and those worried about oxidized oil _clearly_ being the same people in my example. There's no justification for your introduction of " other people " here. Did you actually read the page I cited at http://www.melindalee.com/Cast-Iron.html ? All of my comments in this thread have taken the facts on that page as a point of departure, and were directed at people who read and understood the information there. If you didn't actually read it, then at least I'm a little better able to understand why you're garbling my intent, but I refuse to discuss this topic any further with anyone who hasn't first familiarized themself with the information there. It can only lead to further confusion, and who needs that? :-) Davi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 - You said we shouldn't be worried about the amount of vegetable oil in a seasoned cast iron pan because the results of frying in vegetable oil are worse. Perhaps you assumed that we all fry in vegetable oil, but otherwise you're saying that because Group X fries in vegetable oil, Group Y (which may or may not overlap at all with Group X) shouldn't worry about seasoning. >I assume you're trying to say that _I_ expressed such a notion? >I didn't, and there's really no way of confusing what I _did_ >write with that, except willfully. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 --- In , Idol <Idol@c...> wrote: > - > > You said we shouldn't be worried about the amount of vegetable oil > in a seasoned cast iron pan because the results of frying in > vegetable oil are worse. No my friend I did not say that. Let me rephrase it in such a way as to hopefully avoid further confusion. I'm saying that even the largest amount of oxidized fat that one could ever possibly get from the seasoning on one's cast iron pan, pales in comparison to that that inevitably comes from frying in _any_ kind of fat, vegetable or animal, though of course _especially_ vegetable. > Perhaps you assumed that we all fry in vegetable oil, but otherwise > you're saying that because Group X fries in vegetable oil, Group Y > (which may or may not overlap at all with Group X) shouldn't worry > about seasoning. No, let me again rephrase. I'm saying that anybody who does ever fry in vegetable oil, note this doesn't include anybody who doesn't, is already consuming more oxidized fat than they could ever get from the seasoning on their cast iron pan. I then further extended this to include solid or animal fats as well, though of course with them the damage is to a much lesser degree. Nevertheless, even with animal fats, it's still more than could ever be got from the seasoning on a cast iron pan, which is CARBON, not fat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Oddly, I was always anemic until I quit eating processed/enriched foods. Now that I only eat natural foods I am no longer anemic. I also started using cast iron again recently. Amy Re: Re: Best frypan for frying in ? We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in need of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust. DMM ------------------------------------------- Only me ;-) I'm anaemic. Guess I didn't eat enough iron-enriched processed foods in my vegetarian days. Filippa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Does a well-seasoned, black cast-iron pan feel greasy at all? I thought the seasoning was partly grease, which imparts the non-stick quality. , do you maintain that the black is all carbon and is also naturally non-stick? It seems to me that there would always be a nominal amount of grease left over from the previous frying, although that could be kept to a minimum with proper rinsing and wiping. Now, if you're cooking with animal fat or coconut oil, that recent left-over fat is probably going to be mostly fine, unless you'd been cooking at very high temps, in which case *some* of it might be oxidized. Or maybe it would carbonized already. Clearly, none of us knows enough about the chemical behavior of fats under heat to answer this, yet. Overall, I think 's convincing me that cast-iron is perfectly safe to use for regular frying. Tom > > - > > > > You said we shouldn't be worried about the amount of vegetable oil > > in a seasoned cast iron pan because the results of frying in > > vegetable oil are worse. > > No my friend I did not say that. Let me rephrase it in such > a way as to hopefully avoid further confusion. I'm saying > that even the largest amount of oxidized fat that one could > ever possibly get from the seasoning on one's cast iron pan, > pales in comparison to that that inevitably comes from frying > in _any_ kind of fat, vegetable or animal, though of course > _especially_ vegetable. > > > Perhaps you assumed that we all fry in vegetable oil, but otherwise > > you're saying that because Group X fries in vegetable oil, Group Y > > (which may or may not overlap at all with Group X) shouldn't worry > > about seasoning. > > No, let me again rephrase. I'm saying that anybody who does > ever fry in vegetable oil, note this doesn't include anybody > who doesn't, is already consuming more oxidized fat than they > could ever get from the seasoning on their cast iron pan. I > then further extended this to include solid or animal fats as > well, though of course with them the damage is to a much lesser > degree. Nevertheless, even with animal fats, it's still more > than could ever be got from the seasoning on a cast iron pan, > which is CARBON, not fat. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 In a message dated 11/21/03 1:59:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, liberty@... writes: > True. I'm waiting for to finish college and figure it out > for us. :-) Oh, I'll never finish college ;-) But I should have an answer by next semester! Organic is my only chem class now, which may or may not contain an answer in the next few weeks (probably not) and next semester I have three chem classes including orgo 2 and biochem (also an independent study doing research into the different shapes of crystals buckminsterfullerene will produce when dissolved in different solvents, plus my non-chem load, physics 2, a & p2, and cell biology). Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 --- In , " Tom " <cassiusdio@g...> wrote: > Does a well-seasoned, black cast-iron pan feel greasy at all? Not if it's wiped down well, just very very slick and smooth. > I thought the seasoning was partly grease, which imparts the non- > stick quality. , do you maintain that the black is all carbon > and is also naturally non-stick? It's hard to say. I don't really understand how any solid object can be non-stick, including teflon. I suppose its a matter of having a very very smooth surface that gives nothing to grab onto, and one that tends not to chemically interact with anything. Carbon is fairly chemically inert if I'm not mistaken. > It seems to me that there would always be a nominal amount of > grease left over from the previous frying, although that could > be kept to a minimum with proper rinsing and wiping. Well, the way I use my pans, there's always some fat left, intentionally, to help preserve the seasoning. > Now, if you're cooking with animal fat or coconut oil, that recent > left-over fat is probably going to be mostly fine, Yes, and if you habitually cook with these fats, there going to eventually form the basis of the finish anyway. I cook with ghee, if you hadn't already guessed! :-) > unless you'd been cooking at very high temps, in which case *some* > of it might be oxidized. Or maybe it would carbonized already. Yes, but I'm sure there's always some oxidized fat involved in frying, so I don't worry about it too much. The pottery and smooth flat stones used in prehistoric times would have had the same kind of carbonized finish, though of course they weren't iron. > Clearly, none of us knows enough about the chemical behavior of > fats under heat to answer this, yet. True. I'm waiting for to finish college and figure it out for us. :-) > Overall, I think 's convincing me that cast-iron is perfectly > safe to use for regular frying. Well I'm not trying to pressure anybody to accept cast iron. I just didn't understand the concern about the vegetable oil when it was strictly a one time thing when you first buy a pan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 > > Well I'm not trying to pressure anybody to accept cast iron. I > just didn't understand the concern about the vegetable oil when > it was strictly a one time thing when you first buy a pan. > No, no, it's just that I just bought a cast-iron pan and am subconciously trying to avoid cognitive dissonance. But yeah, I think we're right. *After* the pan's been thoroughly broken in, there isn't really *any* iron coming in contact with your food. The only other concern would be the possible presence of oxidized fats on the surface of the pan, and as you've stated repeatedly, the amounts of those that end up on your food are miniscule. Tom And who says that a man-made alloy, such as good old stainless steel, isn't coming off into your food a little? I'd rather be putting extra iron in my system than foreign SS. I read somewhere that Paleolithic peoples were deficient in stainless steel, owing to the utter lack of cookware made from it. Thank God for metallurgy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 even those who use only solid fats will be > getting some of the same kind of damaged fats as well, > and in amounts many times greater than any that could > possible come from the seasoning on a pan, which was > the real point. ============When comparing sat fats to pufa this point is completely irrelevant. The sat fat provides a somewhat protective effect against the oxidation and oxidative effect of the pufa inherent to the primarily sat fat product. So in reality NO they are NOT getting the same kind of damaged fats when PUFA is used alone. DMM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 This is the 2nd paragraph of the cited article on seasoning... " There is really only one successful way to season a cast-iron cooking utensil, and that is to use it, use it, use it. But until the months and years have passed that are needed to properly do the job through use, the iron must be coated with layer of something to protect it from rust and prevent that metallic taste from transferring to the food. " If all that's there is carbon and there's neither oxidized fat or iron exposure, what prey tell is happening " until the months and years have passed that are needed to properly do the job through use " Regardless of the small points in favor of this practice, I still don't get why one would use an item so frequently that posed such potential negative variables. Here's what I would like. I'm going to send you a check, go and buy a really really nice cast iron skillet and follow the directions on the cited article to season the pan with vegetable or mineral oil and please use it as often as you possibly can and in about 12-24 months when its perfectly seasoned from use and fully " carbonized " SEND IT TO ME and I would love to use it. Until then I just can't see why one would want to use such a pan. DMM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 I'm always skeptical of the term anemic because most of the time the doc and or the patient are referring to low hematocrit and this is more often than not COMPLETELY UNRELATED to iron deficiency. DMM > Oddly, I was always anemic until I quit eating processed/enriched foods. Now that I only eat natural foods I am no longer anemic. I also started using cast iron again recently. Amy > Re: Re: Best frypan for frying in ? > > > > We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the > mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in need > of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust. > > DMM > > > ------------------------------------------- > > Only me ;-) I'm anaemic. Guess I didn't eat enough iron- enriched processed foods in my vegetarian days. > > Filippa > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Are there really any safe pans? It seems to me that any type of metal you cook in could leach into your food. Couldn’t enamel leach or be scraped in minute amounts into your food? Vision ware seems to be the only nonmetal non-coated cookware I can find. From what I can tell they are not made anymore. So short of not cooking at all I guess that I will just have to be happy with what I have, which is a hodge podge of different metals, including cast iron and stainless steel, and a few cheap enamel coated pots. Perhaps someone knows of a place that sells glass type cookware? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 - So what is your assumption, " since frying is OK this must be OK too " ? >Yes, but I'm sure there's always some oxidized fat involved in >frying, so I don't worry about it too much. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 I think I missed what other choices you recommended. I think some people were looking for an alternative to grilling outside, like ways to cook steak, hamburger, grilled chicken. Michele since there are clearly choices that do NOT present ANY downside such as I have mentioned that simple avoidance of said materials would be simple and wise. DMM \ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 I have read (and I wish I could tell you where now) that women do not have high levels of iron because of menstruation, so if this was correct then cast iron would be more desirable for them. Of course, this probably rules me out since I'm the only female in my house so that would hardly be fair to all the guys. Michele We as a culture have MASSIVE overexposure to Iron from all of the mandated " enriched " foods. Few if any modern westerners are in need of any more iron. Excess iron is a great way to rust. DMM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 In a message dated 11/21/03 9:32:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, cassiusdio@... writes: > You're taking 6+ classes next semester? Wow, that would be quite a load. Well they all have labs too ;-) Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 > > If all that's there is carbon and there's neither oxidized fat or > iron exposure, what prey tell is happening " until the months and > years have passed that are needed to properly do the job through > use " The months and years are necessary to produce a really good, and reliably non-stick seasoning. > Regardless of the small points in favor of this practice, I still > don't get why one would use an item so frequently that posed such > potential negative variables. You're right. If there's any concern at all, then one shouldn't use it. > Here's what I would like. I'm going to send you a check, > go and buy a really really nice cast iron skillet and follow the > directions on the cited article to season the pan with vegetable > or mineral oil and please use it as often as you possibly can and > in about 12-24 months when its perfectly seasoned from use and > fully " carbonized " SEND IT TO ME and I would love to use it. > Until then I just can't see why one would want to use such a pan. This is not what I want for you. As I've said, if there are any concerns in one's mind at all, and one is satisfied with the non iron ware they're using, then I would never recommend that they use cast iron. That's never been my point. My point was solely about scientific nit-picking on the matter of the chemistry of fats involved. I would like, if possible, to turn the thread now to speculation and experimentation on the possibility of creating a similar carbonized surface on enamel or glassware, this might be as good as the non-stick surface on an iron pan, but of course there would be no worry about iron-poisoning. I also think that such a thing would more closely resemble prehistoric cook ware than anything else. Does anybody on the list with corningware or something similar care to experiment with putting such a finish on it? I think that such ware is too slick to be able to brush a film of oil onto, so it might require filling the pot/pan with as little oil as will evenly cover the bottom, and then burning it. The slickness of the glass might make it impossible for the finish to cling to the pan, and so a second stage of the experiment might entail roughing up the surface first with sand paper or the like. Any takers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2003 Report Share Posted November 22, 2003 --- In , Idol <Idol@c...> wrote: > - > > So what is your assumption, " since frying is OK this must be OK > too " ? Oh gods I'm getting weary of this. :-( IF one fries, and IF one isn't concerned about the miniscule amount of oxidized fat that the process necessarily entails, THEN, that SAME person has no reason to fear the far smaller amount of OXIDIZED FAT _POSSIBLY_ left over from the seasoning of their pan a week, a month, a decade earlier. Please don't use cast iron pans . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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