Re: Steam and hydro-distilled rose and jasmine

[Guest guest]

>But then I started thinking about it, and I couldn't quite understand why you

*wouldn't* be able to distill jasmine flowers.

I believe it can't be distilled because the heat of the distillation destroys

the flowers before any essential oil can be obtained. I do know, coming from

the study of aromatherapy and not perfumery, we are taught there is no such

thing as steam distilled jasmine. Ever.

" The fragile Jasmine blossoms do not yield their aromatic treasures by the

process of steam distillation, but only by solvent extraction. For more

information about the various ways essential oils and absolutes are produced,

please see our Essential Oil Extraction page. Personally I would be very

suspicious of any vendor claiming to offer Jasmine Essential Oil. There is no

such thing. "

[Guest guest]

> Surely if a flower can be distilled into an attar, it can also be distilled

> on its own? (And jasmine and other attars are usually created by distilling

> the flowers into the sandalwood oil aren't they?)

Re: distilled rose essential oil - yes it exists but is expensive because it

takes 10,000 pounds of roses to produce one pound of EO.

Again - I am new to natural perfumery and have only studied aromatherapy - but I

have never heard anything even close to anyone teach that jasmine is distilled

into sandalwood oil...how would you distill " into " an oil? That makes no sense.

Sue

[Guest guest]

> My understanding is that steam distillation happens at a very high

temperature. Someday when I have time to learn more about the topic of

distillation, I will look for some answers.

Well water boils at 212 F but your plant material is not " in " the water being

boiled, it's above the water - so the steam passes through it - at cooler

temperature than the boiling water - so no - distillation does not take place at

a very high temperature.

[Guest guest]

> **

>

>

> Again - I am new to natural perfumery and have only studied aromatherapy -

> but I have never heard anything even close to anyone teach that jasmine is

> distilled into sandalwood oil...how would you distill " into " an oil? That

> makes no sense.

>

>

Hi Sue

There is a description of this traditional attar-making process here:

http://kannauj.nic.in/attar.htm

My understanding is that the fresh flowers are distilled with the

Sandalwood oil having already been placed in the receiving vessel of the

still.

I'll see if I can find a clearer description of the process though.

Best

Johanna

[Guest guest]

> Hi Sue

>

> There is a description of this traditional attar-making process here:

> http://kannauj.nic.in/attar.htm

That site states: " Base Material : Sandal wood oil, Di-octyl Phthalate (DOP) &

Liquid paraffin. "

So whatever they are describing is not a traditional method of manufacturing

perfume ingredients (and would never be used in aromatherapy) because dioctyl

phthalate is not an old or traditional chemical at all.

So this seems to be a description of how this company manufactures their

synthetic fragrance from " some " natural materials into a synthetic fragrance -

rather than a description of an actual traditional (ancient) method of

extraction.

Sue

[Guest guest]

> So this seems to be a description of how this company manufactures their

> synthetic fragrance from " some " natural materials into a synthetic

> fragrance - rather than a description of an actual traditional (ancient)

> method of extraction.

> __

>

Hi Sue

Hopefully someone else more knowledgeable will jump in here, but I think

that nonetheless the basic description that fresh botanical material is

slowly distilled into a receiving vessel containing sandalwood oil is a

time-honoured traditional method of making attars.

The addition of modern industrial ingredients of course is not traditional,

and I have read that many attars these days are adulterated.

The point I'm trying to make though, is that distillation of botanical

material (including jasmine flowers) into sandalwood oil is a traditional

method that has been used, as far as I know, for centuries.

Best

Johanna

[Guest guest]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Johanna Knox wrote:

>

>> The point I'm trying to make though, is that distillation of botanical

> material (including jasmine flowers) into sandalwood oil is a traditional

> method that has been used, as far as I know, for centuries.

>

>

>

I fall back on Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ittar

Best

Johanna

[Guest guest]

> The point I'm trying to make though, is that distillation of botanical

material (including jasmine flowers) into sandalwood oil is a traditional

method that has been used, as far as I know, for centuries.

But taking that example as proof that you can steam distill jasmine and result

in a true essential oil is ignoring the chemical and physical reality of

essential oil distillation.

Which was the original point you were attempting to make if I am correct - that

because you can produce an attar by distillation of flowers you must therefore

be able to distill an essential oil. Or maybe I misunderstood your point.

Sue

[Guest guest]

> Well water boils at 212 F but your plant material is not " in " the water

being boiled, it's above the water - so the steam passes through it - at

cooler temperature than the boiling water - so no - distillation does not

take place at a very high temperature.

I have noticed that when I distilled rose petals submerged in water, very

little oil was produced. I thought that this was normal, due to the

enormous amount of botanical required to produce even a small amount of

essential oil.

Now I am wondering that if the petals were suspended above the boiling water

(in a mesh basket, etc.) that more oil would be obtained?

Cat

[Guest guest]

> I have noticed that when I distilled rose petals submerged in water, very

little oil was produced. I thought that this was normal, due to the enormous

amount of botanical required to produce even a small amount of essential oil.

>

> Now I am wondering that if the petals were suspended above the boiling water

in a mesh basket, etc.) that more oil would be obtained?

>

> Cat

Probably not - that's the reason rose is not usually distilled - and when it is

distilled you did it the right way - hydrodistilled which is not the way most

botanicals are distilled. I don't know how much Rose EO weighs - probably not

the same as water: a pint is a pound. But for the sake of argument lets say a

pint of Rose EO weighs a pound. You'd need over 600 pounds of rose petals to

make even one OUNCE of Rose EO.

Sue

[Guest guest]

> But taking that example as proof that you can steam distill jasmine and

> result in a true essential oil is ignoring the chemical and physical reality

> of essential oil distillation.

>

> Which was the original point you were attempting to make if I am correct -

> that because you can produce an attar by distillation of flowers you must

> therefore be able to distill an essential oil. Or maybe I misunderstood your

> point.

Yes - my point was that if you can distill jasmine flowers so that the

volatile oils are absorbed by sandalwood in a receiving vessel, then

surely you can distill them to create an oil without the sandalwood

oil in the receiver.

What I was after is feedback on that idea, not a disagreement over

whether the traditional method of making attars by distilling flowers

etc. into sandalwood actually exists.

So to move this discussion on a bit ...I am perfectly happy to accept

that there may be reasons why you can capture the volatile oils of

jasmine flowers, through distillation, into a receiver of sandalwood

oil, but not capture them on their own. But I would love to know

*what* those reasons are - and why the attar process works when

straight distillation doesn't.

What are the differences in how the distillation process works for each method?

Best

Johanna

[Guest guest]

" Yes - my point was that if you can distill jasmine flowers so that the

volatile oils are absorbed by sandalwood in a receiving vessel, then

surely you can distill them to create an oil without the sandalwood

oil in the receiver.

What I was after is feedback on that idea, not a disagreement over

whether the traditional method of making attars by distilling flowers

etc. into sandalwood actually exists.

So to move this discussion on a bit ...I am perfectly happy to accept

that there may be reasons why you can capture the volatile oils of

jasmine flowers, through distillation, into a receiver of sandalwood

oil, but not capture them on their own. But I would love to know

*what* those reasons are - and why the attar process works when

straight distillation doesn't.

What are the differences in how the distillation process works for each method?

Best

Johanna  "

I think the attar process may work because its basically making a hot enfleurage

of a hydrosol with sandalwood as the oil.

Regular distillation of the jasmine would produce jasmine hydrosol but not any

actual jasmine EO. This jasmine hydrosol that is produced in

the distillation hits the sandalwood oil and the sandalwood oil absorbs some of

the scent of the hydrosol. Without the sandalwood oil as a receiver you would

just have the hydrosol.

[Guest guest]

> Hi Sue

>

> There is a description of this traditional attar-making process here:

> http://kannauj.nic.in/attar.htm

>

> My understanding is that the fresh flowers are distilled with the

> Sandalwood oil having already been placed in the receiving vessel of the

> still.

>

> I'll see if I can find a clearer description of the process though.

>

> Best

> Johanna

I don't understand how you could distill an oil. Jasmine can be enfleuraged, so

putting the flowers into a sandalwood oil & letting the oil pull the scent from

the flower would be considered a type of enfleurage. The way a distillation

vessel is set up wouldn't allow you to distill an oil (not mine anyway.) The

botanical sits in a vessel above the water, so how could it possibly hold an

oil?

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> >> The point I'm trying to make though, is that distillation of botanical

> > material (including jasmine flowers) into sandalwood oil is a traditional

> > method that has been used, as far as I know, for centuries.

> >

> >

> >

>

> I fall back on Wikipedia!

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ittar

>

> Best

> Johanna

I don't believe everything on Wikipedia. It's not always accurate. Many times,

it's just a copy & paste of what someone has posted on a blog, etc, & there's a

lot of misinformation out there as a result.

[Guest guest]

________________________________

, Maggie et al:

For making rose EO, it's my understanding (from books, not

eyewitness experience) that roses are all hydrodistilled because

they need to be moved around by the turbulence of the moving

water, otherwise they would compact and be poorly-distilled if

you were to try to just pass steam through them.

I believe that jasmine concrete is the source of hydrodistilled

jasmine.

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

I wonder the reason for hydrodistilling from concrete as opposed to another way?

[Guest guest]

________________________________

I know what you mean , but I think it's hydrodistilled and perhaps they can

control the temperature better that way so that the blossoms yield their oils.

My understanding is that steam distillation happens at a very high temperature.

Someday when I have time to learn more about the topic of distillation, I will

look for some answers.

Maggie

I keep forgetting that the differences in hydrodistilling and steam distilling.

They're all in hot water to me!

[Guest guest]

________________________________

Hi - many thanks for your reply. Rose otto - of course! (Feel silly

now!)

Yes - it's White Lotus that has the jasmine oil (still carrying it). I was

surprised too because I had heard the same ... But then I started thinking

about it, and I couldn't quite understand why you *wouldn't* be able to

distill jasmine flowers.

Surely if a flower can be distilled into an attar, it can also be distilled

on its own? (And jasmine and other attars are usually created by distilling

the flowers into the sandalwood oil aren't they?)

I can understand that the economic side of it may be prohibitive though -

and that maybe for that reason it would be extremely rare to find.

But my own limited observations of certain jasmine flowers are that the

scent is not destroyed by heat, although the structure of the flower breaks

down quickly.

Any further thoughts very welcome! (Suppose I am just going to have to try

it myself!)

Best

Johanna

Hi Johanna,

No need to feel silly-there are a lot of ins and outs of  essence extraction

and terminology, hence my goofs with hydrodistillation vs steam distillation!

Maybe another reason is that perhaps solvent extraction produces a higher yield

than distillation? (Please others chime in if I'm wrong).

And I have always wondered about the whole attar thing, because I've known that

the attars are eo's of different things distilled INTO sandalwood oil. So, yes,

that means that there has to be some essential oil being produced from the still

to pour into the sandalwood oil, and I've seen jasmine attar, as well as many

other flowers(I have a white ginger attar distilled into vetiver oil instead of

sandalwood oil), unless what I've seen has been synthetic.

As an aside, I've also noticed that jasmine keeps it scent in the dried flower,

as well as other flowers like plumeria, white ginger, and champaca.

[Guest guest]

> Yes - my point was that if you can distill jasmine flowers so that the

volatile oils are absorbed by sandalwood in a receiving vessel, then surely you

can distill them to create an oil without the sandalwood oil in the receiver.

OK...that is what I understood you to be saying. The problem is your logic is

not correct. Your analogy is almost like saying; I boil chicken to make chicken

soup - and I can smell the chicken simmering away so there are " aroma chemicals "

produced by cooking chicken - so that must mean I can distill chicken and create

an essential oil of chicken. You are not factoring in chemistry. A

distillation needs to run at a certain temperature and for a specific length of

time in order for the complete profile of chemical constituents to be recovered

from the plant material and result in a complete essential oil. Just distilling

for the alcohols for example, would not result in an essential oil. It would

just produce alcohols which would evaporate off before they can be " saved " .

Distilling " into " a container that contains oil instead of just an empty

receivor for the essential oil, means that some of the most volatile chemicals

can be 'trapped'. But the result is not a complete chemical profile of jasmine

EO and oil...it's simply a different product. And just like the chemicals in

chamomile tea are different from chamomile EO - the chemicals in a jasmine attar

are not the same as the chemicals in a solvent extracted jasmine absolute...and

why there is no such thing as a true jasmine essential oil. Sue

[Guest guest]

> And I have always wondered about the whole attar thing, because I've known

that the attars are eo's of different things distilled INTO sandalwood oil. So,

yes, that means that there has to be some essential oil being produced from the

still to pour into the sandalwood oil, and I've seen jasmine attar, as well as

many other flowers(I have a white ginger attar distilled into vetiver oil

instead of sandalwood oil), unless what I've seen has been synthetic.

>

I am so cunfused, I know nothing of distilling (hope to soon though, I'm buyiing

a still for my upcoming birthday) but I was under the impression that when

SD-ing you end up with water and oil combined (hydrosol) and you then have to

seperate the oil if you want a pure EO (by the way, how is this done?) but

distilling a hydrosol into an oil... wouldn't that support the growth of mold?

or deteriorate the quality of the sandalwood? or just get all messy?

I hope there are some here who know enough and can share, it is a subject that

has baffled me since forever.

all the best

Hemla

[Guest guest]

> Hopefully someone else more knowledgeable will jump in here, but I think

> that nonetheless the basic description that fresh botanical material is

> slowly distilled into a receiving vessel containing sandalwood oil is a

> time-honoured traditional method of making attars.

> The point I'm trying to make though, is that distillation of botanical

> material (including jasmine flowers) into sandalwood oil is a traditional

> method that has been used, as far as I know, for centuries.

>

> Best

> Johanna

Hello Johanna,

Not sure if I consider myself more knowledgeable, but I did spend 6 weeks in

India earlier in the year and was lucky enough to meet 2 artisan attar

distillers. The word attar actually means " scent " in Arabic. You are correct

that the botanical (excluding the Mitti/earth here) being distilled into

sandalwood is a long used tradition, but because the process takes so long

(15-20 days for just 1 attar) some of the attars available may be adulturated. I

personally found that to be the case with 2 places I visited traveling through

the state of Maharashtra. A genuine attar created in the proper method will get

better and better with the passing years, something that will not happen with an

inferior oil. It is still possible to find gorgeous attars traditionally

produced in India.

Namaste & Green Blessings,

Debbi

www.bluemoonherbals.com

[Guest guest]

On Jun 13, 2012, at 9:48 AM, " susanapito "

> >A distillation needs to run at a certain >temperature and for a specific

length >of time in order for the complete >profile of chemical constituents to

be >recovered from the plant material >and result in a complete essential oil.

>Just distilling for the alcohols for >example, would not result in an

>essential oil. It would just produce >alcohols which would evaporate off

>before they can be " saved " . >Distilling " into " a container that >contains oil

instead of just an empty > for the essential oil, means that >some of the most

volatile chemicals >can be 'trapped'. But the result is not >a complete

> > chemical profile of jasmine EO and >oil...it's simply a different product.

>And just like the chemicals in >chamomile tea are different from >chamomile EO

- the chemicals in a >jasmine attar are not the same as >the chemicals in a

solvent extracted >jasmine absolute...and why there is >no such thing as a true

jasmine essential >oil. Sue

>

Well said, thank you.

Dara

www.Hoodooroots.com

www.etsy.com/shop/hoodooroots

[Guest guest]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Aer wrote:

> **

>

> I think the attar process may work because its basically making a hot

> enfleurage of a hydrosol with sandalwood as the oil.

> Regular distillation of the jasmine would produce jasmine hydrosol but not

> any actual jasmine EO. This jasmine hydrosol that is produced in

> the distillation hits the sandalwood oil and the sandalwood oil absorbs

> some of the scent of the hydrosol. Without the sandalwood oil as a receiver

> you would just have the hydrosol.

>

Hi Aer - bingo!! I think you might have explained it! Thank you!

That way of looking at attar making does seem to tally with what I

understand of the process and makes perfect sense. Thanks very, very much.

Best wishes

Johanna

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 1:12 AM, wrote:

> **

>

> >

> > I fall back on Wikipedia!

> >

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ittar

> >

> > Best

> > Johanna

>

> I don't believe everything on Wikipedia. It's not always accurate. Many

> times, it's just a copy & paste of what someone has posted on a blog, etc,

> & there's a lot of misinformation out there as a result.

>

>

Hi

No, you are right of course. I don't believe everything I read on Wikipedia

either, by a long shot. I have found inaccuracies there, but I've also

found excellent pieces. It's a real grab-bag.

But despite that, I do find it often a really useful way into a subject -

giving an accessible broad overview or a entry point. The thing to do is

then make sure to check all the info there with other sources which may be

more specialised or may not have been so accessible until you had the

overview. The references Wikipedia gives can also be useful in themselves.

On this occasion, because the Wikipedia info was in alignment with info I

had from other sources, and was particularly accessible, I thought it was a

good link in the context of this discussion.

Best

Johanna

[Guest guest]

> **

>

>

> > Yes - my point was that if you can distill jasmine flowers so that the

> volatile oils are absorbed by sandalwood in a receiving vessel, then surely

> you can distill them to create an oil without the sandalwood oil in the

> receiver.

>

> OK...that is what I understood you to be saying. The problem is your logic

> is not correct. Your analogy is almost like saying; I boil chicken to make

> chicken soup - and I can smell the chicken simmering away so there are

> " aroma chemicals " produced by cooking chicken - so that must mean I can

> distill chicken and create an essential oil of chicken. You are not

> factoring in chemistry. A distillation needs to run at a certain

> temperature and for a specific length of time in order for the complete

> profile of chemical constituents to be recovered from the plant material

> and result in a complete essential oil. Just distilling for the alcohols

> for example, would not result in an essential oil. It would just produce

> alcohols which would evaporate off before they can be " saved " . Distilling

> " into " a container that contains oil instead of just an empty receivor for

> the essential oil, means that some of the most volatile chemicals can be

> 'trapped'. But the result is not a complete chemical profile of jasmine EO

> and oil...it's simply a different product. And just like the chemicals in

> chamomile tea are different from chamomile EO - the chemicals in a jasmine

> attar are not the same as the chemicals in a solvent extracted jasmine

> absolute...and why there is no such thing as a true jasmine essential oil.

> Sue

>

Hi Sue

Okay, yes - that makes sense. I see what you mean - thanks! And this in

combination with Aer's answer does help me conceptualise why you could

distill a flower's fragrance into an attar, while still not being able to

produce a viable EO from it.

Back to jasmine specifically then ... I guess the other part of the

question is - does the jasmine EO that is said to be distilled from the

concrete exist?

In the previous discussion on this list about it (and earlier in this one I

think) Lawless's book (as far as I know very reputable) was quoted

saying that a (rare) jasmine EO could be distilled from jasmine concrete.

So then why from the concrete - but not from the flowers themselves? (Of

course even reputable sources can be wrong, but I wouldn't want to discount

them before checking thoroughly.)

Would this be to do with economics? Or to do with the way the flowers turn

to mush at high temperatures (presumably not allowing steam to flow

through?) as someone else has mentioned? I am just curious about the nitty

gritty of all this. It frustrates me not to understand the full picture.

Best wishes

Johanna

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 1:09 AM, wrote:

> **

>

>

>

>

> I don't understand how you could distill an oil. Jasmine can be

> enfleuraged, so putting the flowers into a sandalwood oil & letting the oil

> pull the scent from the flower would be considered a type of enfleurage.

> The way a distillation vessel is set up wouldn't allow you to distill an

> oil (not mine anyway.) The botanical sits in a vessel above the water, so

> how could it possibly hold an oil?

>

>

Hi - I think the stills are different for attars. So the receiving

vessel that holds the oil is almost (but certainly not exactly) the

equivalent of the container you use for collecting your distilled oil and

hydrosol.

But (please - someone like Debbi who has witnessed the process - correct me

if I'm wrong!) there is no condenser in an attar-making still - rather,

there is something like two conjoined chambers, one holding the heating

water and botanical material (flowers etc), and one holding the sandalwood

oil.

The steam from the first chamber rises, and swirls around, and comes into

contact with the oil in the joined chamber, so that it absorbs the scent.

This is the understanding I have come to only as the result of this

discussion, thanks to all who are participating.

I have to say - I'm more fascinated by the attar-making process than ever

now. It has a lot of possibilities! (Chicken soup scented attars? ;o)

Best

Johanna