Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 this is hilarious. " the answer " ... does that mean that all the peoples of the world who live in places without this **rare** desert cactus suffer from obesity and over- eating??!! or maybe this magic molecule is present in least one other food for every society where people are not obese? what a remarkable distribution for a never before discovered molecule! mike parker --- In , Wanita Sears <wanitawa@b...> wrote: > From my Worldlink TV newsletter <http://www.linktv.org/>http://www.linktv.org > > PREMIERE NEXT WEEK > THE ANTI-FAT PILL AND THE BUSHMEN > (Premiere: Wednesday, 10/22 @ 8PM ET / 5PM PT) > A rare desert cactus, the Hoodia, contains a never before > discovered molecule that may hold the answer to one of the > world's greatest health problems, obesity and over-eating. > Scientists have isolated an appetite suppressant in the > flesh of the plant that is powerful enough to stop people > eating all day. But who holds the rights to this > information? The San Bushmen of the Kalahari desert have > known of its powers for decades. This film reveals how, > thanks to a rare spirit of co-operation between first > world and third, one of the poorest tribes on earth stands > a good chance of becoming overnight millionaires if the > drug is approved. > For more information, and to inquire about purchasing the > film: > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm>http: //new > s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm > > Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Saw this Wednesday night. Most interesting part is the BBC reporter had to literally force Phytofarm to find the Bushmen for their share in the hoodia cactus profits. Phytofarm had received the hoodia information from South Africa CSIR and sold it to Pfeizer (sp.) Phytofarm's excuse was they weren't anthropologists. The Bushmen had been moved 1500 miles from the Kalahari. A human rights lawyer contacted by BBC got the Bushmen found. Agree Mike that its absurd that there is only one source on the planet that will save obese societies. Its easier than looking at yourself. Wanita At 03:25 AM 10/22/2003 +0000, you wrote: >this is hilarious. " the answer " ... >does that mean that all the peoples of the world who live in places >without this **rare** desert cactus suffer from obesity and over- >eating??!! or maybe this magic molecule is present in least one >other food for every society where people are not obese? what a >remarkable distribution for a never before discovered molecule! > >mike parker > > >--- In , Wanita Sears <wanitawa@b...> >wrote: >> From my Worldlink TV newsletter ><http://www.linktv.org/>http://www.linktv.org >> >> PREMIERE NEXT WEEK >> THE ANTI-FAT PILL AND THE BUSHMEN >> (Premiere: Wednesday, 10/22 @ 8PM ET / 5PM PT) >> A rare desert cactus, the Hoodia, contains a never before >> discovered molecule that may hold the answer to one of the >> world's greatest health problems, obesity and over-eating. >> Scientists have isolated an appetite suppressant in the >> flesh of the plant that is powerful enough to stop people >> eating all day. But who holds the rights to this >> information? The San Bushmen of the Kalahari desert have >> known of its powers for decades. This film reveals how, >> thanks to a rare spirit of co-operation between first >> world and third, one of the poorest tribes on earth stands >> a good chance of becoming overnight millionaires if the >> drug is approved. >> For more information, and to inquire about purchasing the >> film: >> ><http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm>http: >//new >> s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm >> >> Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Mike, I don't see anything hilarious about this. Especially for those practicing CRON, this is a near god-send. Sure it's not the only way to lose weight/eat less, but it seems like a good way to do so. Perhaps you have no problem eating less, but a cursory glance at the obesity epidemic in modern nations leads me to believe that over-eating is an easy thing to fall prey too. If what has been discovered about the cactus is true (and no ill-effects are reported in the next few years) this may potentially save millions of people from early deaths and eradicate the obesity epidemic. I know I'd use it as a way to fast every second day or so. Or perhaps 2-3 days in a row, per week. Am I the only one enthused by this discovery? - > > From my Worldlink TV newsletter > <http://www.linktv.org/>http://www.linktv.org > > > > PREMIERE NEXT WEEK > > THE ANTI-FAT PILL AND THE BUSHMEN > > (Premiere: Wednesday, 10/22 @ 8PM ET / 5PM PT) > > A rare desert cactus, the Hoodia, contains a never before > > discovered molecule that may hold the answer to one of the > > world's greatest health problems, obesity and over-eating. > > Scientists have isolated an appetite suppressant in the > > flesh of the plant that is powerful enough to stop people > > eating all day. But who holds the rights to this > > information? The San Bushmen of the Kalahari desert have > > known of its powers for decades. This film reveals how, > > thanks to a rare spirit of co-operation between first > > world and third, one of the poorest tribes on earth stands > > a good chance of becoming overnight millionaires if the > > drug is approved. > > For more information, and to inquire about purchasing the > > film: > > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm>http: > //new > > s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm > > > > Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 >I know I'd use >it as a way to fast every second day or so. Or perhaps 2-3 days in a >row, per week. Am I the only one enthused by this discovery? > >- Not me, since I've been on the WD. My over-appetite is GONE. And doesn't cost anything. I'm eating less, partly because of lack of time, but am not hungry, and this is from a chronic overeater. If someone tries the WD or other plans and THAT doesn't work, then an appetite suppressant might be the next step. But the first step would be to see if the normal appetite mechanism can be healed. I'm older and not in good shape and if it can be fixed for me, I'd guess a lot of other people can be too. I trust my internal mechanisms more than I do any drug, even one the Bushmen use. -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 In a message dated 10/26/03 1:19:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, paultheo2000@... writes: > I'd assume you could still drink water if you wanted too. I don't see > why not. You'd need to remind yourself, probably. I don't know, but water has significant short-term satiety value, which for me makes it impossible to drink if I feel full beyond satiety. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Hi Heidi, I fast for a day at a time, or all day till dinner quite often during the school year for convenience sake. I usually feel little hunger. But from a psychological perspective I find it almost impossible not to eat when you're in the house all day or with other people who are eating. BTW, I still think Calorie restriction or fasting is a good way to extend lifespan, so the hoodia would definitely be useful in achieving that. It's easier to stop eating when you're eating till you're full (even if only once a day). I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug. - > > >I know I'd use > >it as a way to fast every second day or so. Or perhaps 2-3 days in a > >row, per week. Am I the only one enthused by this discovery? > > > >- > > Not me, since I've been on the WD. My over-appetite is GONE. > And doesn't cost anything. I'm eating less, partly because of > lack of time, but am not hungry, and this is from a chronic > overeater. > > If someone tries the WD or other plans and THAT doesn't > work, then an appetite suppressant might be the next step. > But the first step would be to see if the normal appetite > mechanism can be healed. I'm older and not in good shape > and if it can be fixed for me, I'd guess a lot of other people > can be too. I trust my internal mechanisms more than > I do any drug, even one the Bushmen use. > > -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 >>I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug. But when it's marketed as a standardized extract, as these herbs generally are, that's a drug, because the amounts of the chemical constituent they're targeting is pumped up to be many times higher than it exists in its natural form. And that's why these herbs do have side effects and why herbal medicine (as co-opted by the drug companies) can often have some potentially dangerous contraindications, whereas the traditional use of hebs is generally very safe. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 But why would you have to buy the plant in it's purified form? After all, it only takes 10-20g of the actual plant to do the job. I'd probably just buy the plant and chew on it, as the reporter who reported this did himself. - --- In , <karenr@c...> wrote: > >>I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are > eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug. > > But when it's marketed as a standardized extract, as these herbs generally > are, that's a drug, because the amounts of the chemical constituent they're > targeting is pumped up to be many times higher than it exists in its > natural form. > > And that's why these herbs do have side effects and why herbal medicine (as > co-opted by the drug companies) can often have some potentially dangerous > contraindications, whereas the traditional use of hebs is generally very safe. > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 >Hi Heidi, > >I fast for a day at a time, or all day till dinner quite often during >the school year for convenience sake. I usually feel little hunger. >But from a psychological perspective I find it almost impossible not >to eat when you're in the house all day or with other people who are >eating. Tell me about it. I cook lunch for 5 people, and don't eat it! >BTW, I still think Calorie restriction or fasting is a good way to >extend lifespan, so the hoodia would definitely be useful in achieving >that. It's easier to stop eating when you're eating till you're full >(even if only once a day). Well, that is what I'm currently doing. I don't know about CR enough to comment. But my general take on things to " fix " appetite is that they don't work long term unless you fix the underlying problem. Now it could be that this cactus does in fact fix the underlying problem, but my guess is it just masks it, and the hunger comes back (maybe even more so) when you stop taking the pill. In our culture, for some odd reason, people insist on eating WAY more calories than their bodies need, and on a regular basis. French people do not, nor do Japanese. Taking a pill will help some folks, no doubt, but it doesn't address the cause at all. Most of the folks who fast say they lose the food cravings, and uses the food cravings as a sign that it's time to quit the fast. If someone does CR and is so hungry they need pills to continue on it, I'd have to wonder about the diet too. When I was on a CR type diet, for many months, I wasn't hungry, but it was with foods that didn't stimulate insulin and were high-nutrient. Most of the appetite-suppressant type pills are uppers of some sort or another, which work short term (so does chewing coca leaves). But people just end up taking them forever, while they eat all the rotten " modern foods " that Price complained about. In my lifetime I've taken plenty of diet pills, and they all worked to some extent, but they didn't SOLVE a darn thing. It just was one more thing to take so I could stick to some silly diet that kept me chronically deprived of food. Stop taking the pills, or stop the diet, and I was back to being ravenous. On my current diet, I'd say my body is using less food, or digesting what I eat better, or something, but I'm not deprived, I'm in balance. My appetite WORKS now -- it makes me feel hungry when it's good to feel hungry. Which makes me think something got FIXED -- just blocking my appetite centers wouldn't fix anything, I think. Plus the food I do crave tends to be healthier (greens are high on my craving list at the moment). Again, I want my appetite working! My appetite is a good thing, and dulling it would be like wearing gloves while typing -- taking away an essential part of my nervous system. Now if I was a tribesperson on a long hike with no food I might feel differently -- I dull my pain centers when I burn myself too! > I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are >eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug. It isn't marketed as a cacti leaves. It is marketed as pills. Cod liver oil IS a drug of sorts -- it isn't a whole food, and it is very concentrated. But cod liver oil works by providing essential nutrients. When you stop taking it, you are still high in nutrients, and you don't go into cod liver withdrawals. Cod liver oil works by filling up your body's stores of nutrients. Now coffee is a food too, but it's also a drug. It works by acting on the brain. From the sounds of this Hoodia, it too works on the brain. Hence, it is a drug. Plus I don't like the marketing --- Hoodobaâ„¢ hoodia gordonii diet pill also has a natural feel-good aphrodisiac quality. Plus, this wonder-plant from which it's made is said to give the San tribesmen abundant energy to hunt by day and, superhuman-like strength to make love all night long! It is also known to cure hangovers and upset stomachs too... What more could you ask? Cool, so it makes you feel good and turns you into a healthy tribesman, while you continue to eat SAD and drink too much. What more could you ask? -- Heidi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Heidi, >Most of the appetite-suppressant type pills are uppers of some sort or another Apparently it suppresses thirst as well as appetite, which makes sense as far as it being a moisture-conserving cactus. But suppressing thirst sounds even worse to me than suppressing appetite.. I'm asking a bunch of traditional herbalists I know, about how the plant is traditionally used. The marketing of the pill form does sound scary. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Heidi, " Tell me about it. I cook lunch for 5 people, and don't eat it! " I'm glad you can manage it. Most people, from my experience, could not manage it...nor would they want to fight temptation the way you do. It's dangerous to assume everyone can eat the way you do. " Well, that is what I'm currently doing. I don't know about CR enough to comment. But my general take on things to " fix " appetite is that they don't work long term unless you fix the underlying problem. " Using hoodia would not be about 'fixing' the problem. The problem is there, and you want to avoid it. Oh sure, maybe some of us can construct the perfect diet and fast our way to hungerless nirvana, but this isn't the case for most. If the problem is no longer there...why fix it?? " Now it could be that this cactus does in fact fix the underlying problem, but my guess is it just masks it, and the hunger comes back (maybe even more so) when you stop taking the pill. " My question is: so what? It's like eating healthy: once you stop eating healthy negative symptoms re-appear. " In our culture, for some odd reason, people insist on eating WAY more calories than their bodies need, and on a regular basis. French people do not, nor do Japanese. Taking a pill will help some folks, no doubt, but it doesn't address the cause at all. " It ELIMINATES the problem! Who cares about fixing it? I realize it's somewhat sad that it should come to this...but if an easy solution comes along I see no reason to fight it and try to force a harder solution upon everyone (which has not and will never work within our modern framework). " Most of the folks who fast say they lose the food cravings, and uses the food cravings as a sign that it's time to quit the fast. If someone does CR and is so hungry they need pills to continue on it, I'd have to wonder about the diet too. When I was on a CR type diet, for many months, I wasn't hungry, but it was with foods that didn't stimulate insulin and were high-nutrient. " CR, in the VAST majority of people leads to hunger. There are some exceptions...but I'm certain most people would feel hungry on a calorie restricted diet (even the most nutrient dense one). " Most of the appetite-suppressant type pills are uppers of some sort or another, which work short term (so does chewing coca leaves). But people just end up taking them forever, while they eat all the rotten " modern foods " that Price complained about. " You're fighting a straw man. Of course we'd both prefer that everyone had a perfectly functioning appestat and was eating the NT way. But that is not the case. So which do you prefer: the way people eat now... or people eating like they are now, but eating less??? And once people lose weight, it also enables them to exercise and gain self esteem. " In my lifetime I've taken plenty of diet pills, and they all worked to some extent, but they didn't SOLVE a darn thing. It just was one more thing to take so I could stick to some silly diet that kept me chronically deprived of food. Stop taking the pills, or stop the diet, and I was back to being ravenous. " But if Hoodia is what they say it is, it'll be completely different. You won't feel hungry, and there will BE NO SIDE effects. Come to think of it, it's sorta of like taking a hypothetical smart pill everyday. I know I'd sure as hell do it...even if when I stopped taking it I became my usual dumb self again. That's no argument against using it. " On my current diet, I'd say my body is using less food, or digesting what I eat better, or something, but I'm not deprived, I'm in balance. My appetite WORKS now -- it makes me feel hungry when it's good to feel hungry. Which makes me think something got FIXED -- just blocking my appetite centers wouldn't fix anything, I think. Plus the food I do crave tends to be healthier (greens are high on my craving list at the moment). Again, I want my appetite working! My appetite is a good thing, and dulling it would be like wearing gloves while typing -- taking away an essential part of my nervous system. Now if I was a tribesperson on a long hike with no food I might feel differently -- I dull my pain centers when I burn myself too! " I'm not disagreeing with you--you would probably be one of the lucky people who wouldn't even NEED or want this product. But most people would need it, as reflected by the obesity epidemic we're experiencing. " It isn't marketed as a cacti leaves. It is marketed as pills. " It's not being marketed at all. Pfizer holds the rights to it and won't come out until 2004-2007. I'm sure some crooks are selling 'hoodia' but it's probably a scam. " Now coffee is a food too, but it's also a drug. It works by acting on the brain. From the sounds of this Hoodia, it too works on the brain. Hence, it is a drug. " That seems like very specious reasoning to me. Something that acts on the brain is a drug? Is playing video games a drug? Is eating pasta? " Cool, so it makes you feel good and turns you into a healthy tribesman, while you continue to eat SAD and drink too much. What more could you ask? " I'm not saying it cures any of the problems we're experiencing. But it's a HUGE step in the right direction. Personally, I'd love it only because I hate worrying about food. I hate getting nagging cravings during the day. I'm quite lean in fact, get plenty of exercise, and it clean (no sugar icecream is as unhealthy as I get). For me, it's just a convenience thing. The talk about drugs which make sleep obsolete excite me even more! Cheers, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 That's a good point. You'd probably have to place special attention on getting sufficient fluids. It's not like people are getting plenty of water these days, anyway. If anything, it might draw attention to the problem. With that said, I have no idea how the suppresion thing would work. I can barely imagine it. Even when I'm stuffed I can still concieve eating some more icecream. I wonder if taking hoodia would set up some gag mechanism or something. I'm hoping it does what they say it does...and simply eliminates food from your thoughts. I'd assume you could still drink water if you wanted too. I don't see why not. You'd need to remind yourself, probably. - ---- > Apparently it suppresses thirst as well as appetite, which makes sense as > far as it being a moisture-conserving cactus. But suppressing thirst sounds > even worse to me than suppressing appetite.. I'm asking a bunch of > traditional herbalists I know, about how the plant is traditionally used. > The marketing of the pill form does sound scary. > > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 , >>But if Hoodia is what they say it is, it'll be completely different. You won't feel hungry, and there will BE NO SIDE effects Side effects are only unwanted primary effects. And I'd bet there will be unwanted effects even if they're not noticeable in the short run. For safety and efficacy, in traditional herbal medicine, herbs are almost always used in synergistic formulas so that any unwanted effects of one herb can be balanced by another. Single herbs used medicinally almost always cause problems when used longer than a few days and for more than just acute problems. That's why I'd really be worried about using this substance on a continuing basis. So hoodia might be useful as one herb in a formula, prescribed on an individual basis, depending on your particular patterns of imbalance. Used any other way it would be an allopathic usage, and that's how herbs are marketed commercially, and how people often have problems with them. I'm hoping to get more input on this from some experienced herbalists. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 > Personally, I'd love it only because I hate worrying about food. I > hate getting nagging cravings during the day. I'm quite lean in fact, > get plenty of exercise, and it clean (no sugar icecream is as > unhealthy as I get). For me, it's just a convenience thing. --------, if you're eating great food and you have nagging hunger and cravings when you try to fast and do CR, I would suggest that CR is not for you. It sounds like your body is telling you to eat more food. Or that something is missing from your diet. I personally cannot fast unless it is a Milk Cure-like cleanse where you are still getting nutrients but digestion is simplified so the body can use digestive energy for healing instead. Some people have high nutrient needs, for various reasons, such as healing from an illness, repair from high levels of toxins, etc. Listen to your body. Maybe it's telling you to eat more. If I remember correctly, you are interested in the life lengthening effects of calorie restriction. And maybe this is worth doing. But I would address your present needs and present quality of life first. Maybe your body isn't ready for fasting. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 > Mike, > > I don't see anything hilarious about this. Especially for those > practicing CRON, this is a near god-send. At what point does it become apparent that CRON might be a sub- optimal choice for most people when they need such an obscure and rare molecule in order to practice it effectively and retain their happiness? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Which really makes me wonder how hoodia mimics satiety. It doesn't appear to give you the actual bloated feeling or anything. In any case, I can always drink water, so I should be ok. - > In a message dated 10/26/03 1:19:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, > paultheo2000@y... writes: > > > I'd assume you could still drink water if you wanted too. I don't see > > why not. You'd need to remind yourself, probably. > > I don't know, but water has significant short-term satiety value, which for > me makes it impossible to drink if I feel full beyond satiety. > > Chris > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 The problem is that I'm not convinced that the body actually 'knows' what is best for it. Clearly appestats easily get messed up as evidenced in modern societies. Primitive societies gave up delicious wholesome foods for empty disease inducing filth. Why? I cannot conceive of the body as some omnipotent being which understands what it should and shouldn't it. Most obese people feel hungry yet clearly don't need any more food. I guess there is some truth to what you're saying...but I've yet to discover how to figure out what exactly. - > > > Personally, I'd love it only because I hate worrying about food. I > > hate getting nagging cravings during the day. I'm quite lean in > fact, > > get plenty of exercise, and it clean (no sugar icecream is as > > unhealthy as I get). For me, it's just a convenience thing. > > --------, if you're eating great food and you have nagging > hunger and cravings when you try to fast and do CR, I would > suggest that CR is not for you. It sounds like your body is telling > you to eat more food. Or that something is missing from your > diet. I personally cannot fast unless it is a Milk Cure-like cleanse > where you are still getting nutrients but digestion is simplified so > the body can use digestive energy for healing instead. Some > people have high nutrient needs, for various reasons, such as > healing from an illness, repair from high levels of toxins, etc. > Listen to your body. Maybe it's telling you to eat more. > > If I remember correctly, you are interested in the life lengthening > effects of calorie restriction. And maybe this is worth doing. But I > would address your present needs and present quality of life > first. Maybe your body isn't ready for fasting. > > Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 That doesn't become apparant at all. Your claim is that because something is difficult it cannot be healthful???? - > > Mike, > > > > I don't see anything hilarious about this. Especially for those > > practicing CRON, this is a near god-send. > > At what point does it become apparent that CRON might be a sub- > optimal choice for most people when they need such an obscure and > rare molecule in order to practice it effectively and retain their > happiness? > > Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Most obese people feel hungry yet clearly > don't need any more food. I guess there is some truth to what you're > saying...but I've yet to discover how to figure out what exactly. ----------the reason obese people are so hungry is because they DO need to eat more... of the healing foods in NT! Obesity is not caused by overeating, per se. I've known people who put on weight eating miniscule amounts of food. Their bodies are out of whack because of SAD and the resulting hormonal problems it brings. I always ate way more than my friends with weight problems! (Granted, some obese people DO overeat, because their nutrient starved bodies are insatiable.) I certainly don't think we should just eat according to impulses, but a healthy body eating healthy food should have healthy cravings. I believe cravings and hunger are the bodies natural response to a deficiency. (Thus people eating themselves to obesity and still being hungry!) Case in point: I used to be a binge eater. I would eat low-carb for months, and then lose it and eat bags of candy and chips. I have been a total sugar addict my whole life, so much so that Iwould hide and steal candy as a kid. Since I adopted NT, and did the Garden of Life protocol, the desire for candy has all but disappeared. I actually looked at a bowl of candies the other day and remembered what it was like to want them, but didn't actually want them! This is a miracle for me! And I do eat carbs now, but in the form of raw honey and creamcheese on a banana fried in cococut oil. NT has actually freed me to enjoy the occasional healthy sweet, without the attendant hypoglycemia and onrush of cravings. So I still believe that if you're eating a healthy NT diet, and are having cravings and hunger, that your body wants something it's not getting. Either more food, or you are maybe not assimilating something you're eating due to a digestive track not completely healed or food allergies. Even the unhealthy cravings of an obese person are messages from the body. Even if we don't give into the impulses, we should listen to the message of need. Respectfully, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Well, since I don't really NT, I can't comment, unfortunately. Like most people I don't have access to raw milk, raw cheese, raw grass fed meat, etc. My family's too lazy to even buy organic fruits and veggies most of the time. I find it amazing how you were able to conquer your previous addictions. I personally don't indulge in anything with sugar (or honey...since I can't get it raw) but I'm sure most commercial junk would taste delicious to me. The rotting effect on the teeth does disgust me though. My point about the Hoobia cactus was somewhat specific to myself. While I enjoy eating... there are other things in my life which concern me more. So I hate thinking about food during non-eating hours. For me, that cactus would be a godsend (I think). I think it would improve my overall eating habits as well, in all likilihood. The issue of cravings is incredibly fascinating. I did see a study where children lacking vitamin A actually choose to eat cod liver oil over something more palatable. In most cases though, my appetite sends me the WRONG signals! Perhaps if I lived in an environment where there was no junk or semi-junk food and there was plenty of wholesome food I must trust my instinct more! Cheers, - > Most obese people feel hungry yet clearly > > don't need any more food. I guess there is some truth to what > you're > > saying...but I've yet to discover how to figure out what exactly. > > ----------the reason obese people are so hungry is because they > DO need to eat more... of the healing foods in NT! Obesity is not > caused by overeating, per se. I've known people who put on > weight eating miniscule amounts of food. Their bodies are out > of whack because of SAD and the resulting hormonal problems > it brings. I always ate way more than my friends with weight > problems! (Granted, some obese people DO overeat, because > their nutrient starved bodies are insatiable.) > > I certainly don't think we should just eat according to impulses, > but a healthy body eating healthy food should have healthy > cravings. I believe cravings and hunger are the bodies natural > response to a deficiency. (Thus people eating themselves to > obesity and still being hungry!) > > Case in point: I used to be a binge eater. I would eat low-carb > for months, and then lose it and eat bags of candy and chips. I > have been a total sugar addict my whole life, so much so that > Iwould hide and steal candy as a kid. Since I adopted NT, and > did the Garden of Life protocol, the desire for candy has all but > disappeared. I actually looked at a bowl of candies the other day > and remembered what it was like to want them, but didn't > actually want them! This is a miracle for me! And I do eat carbs > now, but in the form of raw honey and creamcheese on a > banana fried in cococut oil. NT has actually freed me to enjoy the > occasional healthy sweet, without the attendant hypoglycemia > and onrush of cravings. > > So I still believe that if you're eating a healthy NT diet, and are > having cravings and hunger, that your body wants something it's > not getting. Either more food, or you are maybe not assimilating > something you're eating due to a digestive track not completely > healed or food allergies. Even the unhealthy cravings of an > obese person are messages from the body. Even if we don't > give into the impulses, we should listen to the message of need. > > Respectfully, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 > That doesn't become apparant at all. > > Your claim is that because something is difficult it cannot be > healthful???? , I suppose that's a moderately accurate paraphrase. There's nothing remotely difficult about my diet, and I fail to see how it isn't radically more healthful than most other people's diets. I suppose it wouldn't be too fruitful to push this debate, since we've already had it, and since it ultimately comes down to a matter of choice, whether one is inclined to inflict hardship and probable psychological damage to themselves over some obscure goal that will not be recognized for literally an entire lifetime, may well never be recognized, doesn't have sure scientific validation, etc. Ultimately, the best case against calorie restriction is philosophical and not scientific. Why is life worth making longer if it just makes it harder? Clearly CRON doesn't make it harder for Mike , so kudos to him, but from what you've written, clearly it *does* make it harder for you. There are two other reasons why it seems quite apparent that CRON is a sub-optimal choice for you. First, like me, you are young and growing still, and a male, and guys our age have much higher calorie requirement than the average person attempting to engage in CRON. Second, like me, you have an interest in weight lifting and gaining muscle mass, which makes CRON clearly a sub-optimal diet, as caloric excess is necessary for growth. Granted, perhaps not for strength, as we've discussed before, but certainly for growth. But essentially what I was saying is that if you are deliberately imposing an unnatural restriction of calories on yourself for a goal that exists in your mind, the efficacy of which you have no way of validating within this lifetime,if your body is crying out for more food, there's a good chance it might be because it needs more food. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 - It's not difficult for the vast majority of sugar addicts to kick their addiction provided they eat a healthy, high-fat low-carb diet. It worked for me. >I find it amazing how you were able to conquer your previous >addictions. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 > Well, since I don't really NT, I can't comment, unfortunately. Like > most people I don't have access to raw milk, raw cheese, raw grass fed > meat, etc. My family's too lazy to even buy organic fruits and veggies > most of the time. ------- you poor thing! Is this because you live somewhere where it's not available,or because you're young and at the mercy of what your family buys? I would still eat lots of good meats and animal fats, whatever you can get your hands on. Especially if you're young and growing, please don't deprive yourself of fat and protein because optimal meat (grass-fed) isn't available to you. Just avoid the processed carbs (which it sounds like you do already). You can get good sprouted breads (Ezekiel bread) in a lot of regular grocery stores, now. It's delicious toasted with almond butter and butter. It sounds like you're frustrated cuz your nutritional knowlege far outstrips your access to good food. I would hate that. Just do what you can and try not to obsess. I know from personal experience that obsession with food and limiting food is often a result of zinc and b vitamin deficiencies (this is part of what triggers anorexia in young girls who go on a diet). Could you order some x-factor butter oil from radiant life with your own money? That would add some good nutrition daily to your diet. You need to hurry, though, because Oct. is the last month it is produced before the winter (no growing grass). Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 " There's nothing remotely difficult about my diet, and I fail to see how it isn't radically more healthful than most other people's diets. " there is something difficult about your diet. How many people have easy access to the foods you do?? " Ultimately, the best case against calorie restriction is philosophical and not scientific. Why is life worth making longer if it just makes it harder? Clearly CRON doesn't make it harder for Mike , so kudos to him, but from what you've written, clearly it *does* make it harder for you. " That's not a case against CR. It's a case against not everyone attempting it. You're right...I'm probably not one of those people cut up for it. HOWEVER, if the hoodia cactus acts as promised, it's a godsend in attempting CR for most people. " There are two other reasons why it seems quite apparent that CRON is a sub-optimal choice for you. First, like me, you are young and growing still, and a male, and guys our age have much higher calorie requirement than the average person attempting to engage in CRON. Second, like me, you have an interest in weight lifting and gaining muscle mass, which makes CRON clearly a sub-optimal diet, as caloric excess is necessary for growth. Granted, perhaps not for strength, as we've discussed before, but certainly for growth. " All reasons I use to justify my non-CRish diet " But essentially what I was saying is that if you are deliberately > imposing an unnatural restriction of calories on yourself for a goal > that exists in your mind, the efficacy of which you have no way of > validating within this lifetime,if your body is crying out for more > food, there's a good chance it might be because it needs more food. " Well, there are other benefits to CR (or eating healthy in general) which are definitely noticeable. And if I hit 90 in good health, it'll have been worth it (if it's easy to do with hoodia). - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Eating low carb is very difficult for most people. Bread, pastry, potatoes are omnipresent in our society. - > - > > It's not difficult for the vast majority of sugar addicts to kick their > addiction provided they eat a healthy, high-fat low-carb diet. It worked > for me. > > >I find it amazing how you were able to conquer your previous > >addictions. > > > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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