Re: The Anti-Fat Pill and the Bushmen

[Guest guest]

this is hilarious. " the answer " ...

does that mean that all the peoples of the world who live in places

without this **rare** desert cactus suffer from obesity and over-

eating??!! or maybe this magic molecule is present in least one

other food for every society where people are not obese? what a

remarkable distribution for a never before discovered molecule!

mike parker

--- In , Wanita Sears <wanitawa@b...>

wrote:

> From my Worldlink TV newsletter

<http://www.linktv.org/>http://www.linktv.org

>

> PREMIERE NEXT WEEK

> THE ANTI-FAT PILL AND THE BUSHMEN

> (Premiere: Wednesday, 10/22 @ 8PM ET / 5PM PT)

> A rare desert cactus, the Hoodia, contains a never before

> discovered molecule that may hold the answer to one of the

> world's greatest health problems, obesity and over-eating.

> Scientists have isolated an appetite suppressant in the

> flesh of the plant that is powerful enough to stop people

> eating all day. But who holds the rights to this

> information? The San Bushmen of the Kalahari desert have

> known of its powers for decades. This film reveals how,

> thanks to a rare spirit of co-operation between first

> world and third, one of the poorest tribes on earth stands

> a good chance of becoming overnight millionaires if the

> drug is approved.

> For more information, and to inquire about purchasing the

> film:

>

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm>http:

//new

> s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm

>

> Wanita

[Guest guest]

Saw this Wednesday night. Most interesting part is the BBC reporter had to

literally force Phytofarm to find the Bushmen for their share in the hoodia

cactus profits. Phytofarm had received the hoodia information from South

Africa CSIR and sold it to Pfeizer (sp.) Phytofarm's excuse was they

weren't anthropologists. The Bushmen had been moved 1500 miles from the

Kalahari. A human rights lawyer contacted by BBC got the Bushmen found.

Agree Mike that its absurd that there is only one source on the planet that

will save obese societies. Its easier than looking at yourself.

Wanita

At 03:25 AM 10/22/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>this is hilarious. " the answer " ...

>does that mean that all the peoples of the world who live in places

>without this **rare** desert cactus suffer from obesity and over-

>eating??!! or maybe this magic molecule is present in least one

>other food for every society where people are not obese? what a

>remarkable distribution for a never before discovered molecule!

>

>mike parker

>

>

>--- In , Wanita Sears <wanitawa@b...>

>wrote:

>> From my Worldlink TV newsletter

><http://www.linktv.org/>http://www.linktv.org

>>

>> PREMIERE NEXT WEEK

>> THE ANTI-FAT PILL AND THE BUSHMEN

>> (Premiere: Wednesday, 10/22 @ 8PM ET / 5PM PT)

>> A rare desert cactus, the Hoodia, contains a never before

>> discovered molecule that may hold the answer to one of the

>> world's greatest health problems, obesity and over-eating.

>> Scientists have isolated an appetite suppressant in the

>> flesh of the plant that is powerful enough to stop people

>> eating all day. But who holds the rights to this

>> information? The San Bushmen of the Kalahari desert have

>> known of its powers for decades. This film reveals how,

>> thanks to a rare spirit of co-operation between first

>> world and third, one of the poorest tribes on earth stands

>> a good chance of becoming overnight millionaires if the

>> drug is approved.

>> For more information, and to inquire about purchasing the

>> film:

>>

><http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm>http:

>//new

>> s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm

>>

>> Wanita

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I don't see anything hilarious about this. Especially for those

practicing CRON, this is a near god-send. Sure it's not the only way

to lose weight/eat less, but it seems like a good way to do so.

Perhaps you have no problem eating less, but a cursory glance at the

obesity epidemic in modern nations leads me to believe that

over-eating is an easy thing to fall prey too. If what has been

discovered about the cactus is true (and no ill-effects are reported

in the next few years) this may potentially save millions of people

from early deaths and eradicate the obesity epidemic. I know I'd use

it as a way to fast every second day or so. Or perhaps 2-3 days in a

row, per week. Am I the only one enthused by this discovery?

-

> > From my Worldlink TV newsletter

> <http://www.linktv.org/>http://www.linktv.org

> >

> > PREMIERE NEXT WEEK

> > THE ANTI-FAT PILL AND THE BUSHMEN

> > (Premiere: Wednesday, 10/22 @ 8PM ET / 5PM PT)

> > A rare desert cactus, the Hoodia, contains a never before

> > discovered molecule that may hold the answer to one of the

> > world's greatest health problems, obesity and over-eating.

> > Scientists have isolated an appetite suppressant in the

> > flesh of the plant that is powerful enough to stop people

> > eating all day. But who holds the rights to this

> > information? The San Bushmen of the Kalahari desert have

> > known of its powers for decades. This film reveals how,

> > thanks to a rare spirit of co-operation between first

> > world and third, one of the poorest tribes on earth stands

> > a good chance of becoming overnight millionaires if the

> > drug is approved.

> > For more information, and to inquire about purchasing the

> > film:

> >

> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm>http:

> //new

> > s.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3031063.stm

> >

> > Wanita

[Guest guest]

>I know I'd use

>it as a way to fast every second day or so. Or perhaps 2-3 days in a

>row, per week. Am I the only one enthused by this discovery?

>

>-

Not me, since I've been on the WD. My over-appetite is GONE.

And doesn't cost anything. I'm eating less, partly because of

lack of time, but am not hungry, and this is from a chronic

overeater.

If someone tries the WD or other plans and THAT doesn't

work, then an appetite suppressant might be the next step.

But the first step would be to see if the normal appetite

mechanism can be healed. I'm older and not in good shape

and if it can be fixed for me, I'd guess a lot of other people

can be too. I trust my internal mechanisms more than

I do any drug, even one the Bushmen use.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/26/03 1:19:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> I'd assume you could still drink water if you wanted too. I don't see

> why not. You'd need to remind yourself, probably.

I don't know, but water has significant short-term satiety value, which for

me makes it impossible to drink if I feel full beyond satiety.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

I fast for a day at a time, or all day till dinner quite often during

the school year for convenience sake. I usually feel little hunger.

But from a psychological perspective I find it almost impossible not

to eat when you're in the house all day or with other people who are

eating.

BTW, I still think Calorie restriction or fasting is a good way to

extend lifespan, so the hoodia would definitely be useful in achieving

that. It's easier to stop eating when you're eating till you're full

(even if only once a day).

I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are

eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug.

-

>

> >I know I'd use

> >it as a way to fast every second day or so. Or perhaps 2-3 days in a

> >row, per week. Am I the only one enthused by this discovery?

> >

> >-

>

> Not me, since I've been on the WD. My over-appetite is GONE.

> And doesn't cost anything. I'm eating less, partly because of

> lack of time, but am not hungry, and this is from a chronic

> overeater.

>

> If someone tries the WD or other plans and THAT doesn't

> work, then an appetite suppressant might be the next step.

> But the first step would be to see if the normal appetite

> mechanism can be healed. I'm older and not in good shape

> and if it can be fixed for me, I'd guess a lot of other people

> can be too. I trust my internal mechanisms more than

> I do any drug, even one the Bushmen use.

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>>I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are

eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug.

But when it's marketed as a standardized extract, as these herbs generally

are, that's a drug, because the amounts of the chemical constituent they're

targeting is pumped up to be many times higher than it exists in its

natural form.

And that's why these herbs do have side effects and why herbal medicine (as

co-opted by the drug companies) can often have some potentially dangerous

contraindications, whereas the traditional use of hebs is generally very safe.

-

[Guest guest]

But why would you have to buy the plant in it's purified form? After

all, it only takes 10-20g of the actual plant to do the job. I'd

probably just buy the plant and chew on it, as the reporter who

reported this did himself.

-

--- In , <karenr@c...>

wrote:

> >>I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are

> eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug.

>

> But when it's marketed as a standardized extract, as these herbs

generally

> are, that's a drug, because the amounts of the chemical constituent

they're

> targeting is pumped up to be many times higher than it exists in its

> natural form.

>

> And that's why these herbs do have side effects and why herbal

medicine (as

> co-opted by the drug companies) can often have some potentially

dangerous

> contraindications, whereas the traditional use of hebs is generally

very safe.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

>Hi Heidi,

>

>I fast for a day at a time, or all day till dinner quite often during

>the school year for convenience sake. I usually feel little hunger.

>But from a psychological perspective I find it almost impossible not

>to eat when you're in the house all day or with other people who are

>eating.

Tell me about it. I cook lunch for 5 people, and don't eat it!

>BTW, I still think Calorie restriction or fasting is a good way to

>extend lifespan, so the hoodia would definitely be useful in achieving

>that. It's easier to stop eating when you're eating till you're full

>(even if only once a day).

Well, that is what I'm currently doing. I don't know about CR enough to comment.

But my general take on things to " fix " appetite is that they don't work long

term unless you fix the underlying problem. Now it could be that this cactus

does in fact fix the underlying problem, but my guess is it just masks it, and

the hunger comes back (maybe even more so) when you stop taking the pill. In our

culture, for some odd reason, people insist on eating WAY more calories than

their bodies need, and on a regular basis. French people do not, nor do

Japanese. Taking a pill will help some folks, no doubt, but it doesn't address

the cause at all.

Most of the folks who fast say they lose the food cravings, and uses the

food cravings as a sign that it's time to quit the fast. If someone does CR and

is so hungry they need pills to continue on it, I'd have to wonder about the

diet too. When I was on a CR type diet, for many months, I wasn't hungry, but it

was with foods that didn't stimulate insulin and were high-nutrient.

Most of the appetite-suppressant type pills are uppers of some sort or another,

which work short term (so does chewing coca leaves). But people just end up

taking them forever, while they eat all the rotten " modern foods " that Price

complained about. In my lifetime I've taken plenty of diet pills, and they all

worked to some extent, but they didn't SOLVE a darn thing. It just was one more

thing to take so I could stick to some silly diet that kept me chronically

deprived of food. Stop taking the pills, or stop the diet, and I was back to

being ravenous.

On my current diet, I'd say my body is using less food, or digesting what I eat

better, or something, but I'm not deprived, I'm in balance. My appetite WORKS

now -- it makes me feel hungry when it's good to feel hungry. Which makes me

think something got FIXED -- just blocking my appetite centers wouldn't fix

anything, I think. Plus the food I do crave tends to be healthier (greens are

high on my craving list at the moment). Again, I want my appetite working! My

appetite is a good thing, and dulling it would be like wearing gloves while

typing -- taking away an essential part of my nervous system. Now if I was a

tribesperson on a long hike with no food I might feel differently -- I dull my

pain centers when I burn myself too!

> I also wouldn't consider it a drug. It's a cactus these people are

>eating. That's analogous to calling cod liver oil a drug.

It isn't marketed as a cacti leaves. It is marketed as pills. Cod liver oil IS a

drug of sorts -- it isn't a whole food, and it is very concentrated. But cod

liver oil works by providing essential nutrients. When you stop taking it, you

are still high in nutrients, and you don't go into cod liver withdrawals. Cod

liver oil works by filling up your body's stores of nutrients.

Now coffee is a food too, but it's also a drug. It works by acting on the brain.

From the sounds of this Hoodia, it too works on the brain. Hence, it is a drug.

Plus I don't like the marketing ---

Hoodoba™ hoodia gordonii diet pill also has a natural feel-good aphrodisiac

quality. Plus, this wonder-plant from which it's made is said to give the San

tribesmen abundant energy to hunt by day and, superhuman-like strength to make

love all night long! It is also known to cure hangovers and upset stomachs

too... What more could you ask?

Cool, so it makes you feel good and turns you into a healthy tribesman, while

you continue to eat SAD and drink too much. What more could you ask?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

>Most of the appetite-suppressant type pills are uppers of some sort or another

Apparently it suppresses thirst as well as appetite, which makes sense as

far as it being a moisture-conserving cactus. But suppressing thirst sounds

even worse to me than suppressing appetite.. I'm asking a bunch of

traditional herbalists I know, about how the plant is traditionally used.

The marketing of the pill form does sound scary.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

" Tell me about it. I cook lunch for 5 people, and don't eat it! "

I'm glad you can manage it. Most people, from my experience, could not

manage it...nor would they want to fight temptation the way you do.

It's dangerous to assume everyone can eat the way you do.

"

Well, that is what I'm currently doing. I don't know about CR enough

to comment. But my general take on things to " fix " appetite is that

they don't work long term unless you fix the underlying problem. "

Using hoodia would not be about 'fixing' the problem. The problem is

there, and you want to avoid it. Oh sure, maybe some of us can

construct the perfect diet and fast our way to hungerless nirvana, but

this isn't the case for most. If the problem is no longer there...why

fix it??

" Now it could be that this cactus does in fact fix the underlying

problem, but my guess is it just masks it, and the hunger comes back

(maybe even more so) when you stop taking the pill. "

My question is: so what? It's like eating healthy: once you stop

eating healthy negative symptoms re-appear.

" In our culture, for some odd reason, people insist on eating WAY more

calories than their bodies need, and on a regular basis. French people

do not, nor do Japanese. Taking a pill will help some folks, no doubt,

but it doesn't address the cause at all. "

It ELIMINATES the problem! Who cares about fixing it? I realize it's

somewhat sad that it should come to this...but if an easy solution

comes along I see no reason to fight it and try to force a harder

solution upon everyone (which has not and will never work within our

modern framework).

" Most of the folks who fast say they lose the food cravings, and

uses the food cravings as a sign that it's time to quit the

fast. If someone does CR and is so hungry they need pills to continue

on it, I'd have to wonder about the diet too. When I was on a CR type

diet, for many months, I wasn't hungry, but it was with foods that

didn't stimulate insulin and were high-nutrient. "

CR, in the VAST majority of people leads to hunger. There are some

exceptions...but I'm certain most people would feel hungry on a

calorie restricted diet (even the most nutrient dense one).

" Most of the appetite-suppressant type pills are uppers of some sort

or another, which work short term (so does chewing coca leaves). But

people just end up taking them forever, while they eat all the rotten

" modern foods " that Price complained about. "

You're fighting a straw man. Of course we'd both prefer that everyone

had a perfectly functioning appestat and was eating the NT way. But

that is not the case. So which do you prefer: the way people eat

now... or people eating like they are now, but eating less??? And once

people lose weight, it also enables them to exercise and gain self

esteem.

" In my lifetime I've taken plenty of diet pills, and they all worked

to some extent, but they didn't SOLVE a darn thing. It just was one

more thing to take so I could stick to some silly diet that kept me

chronically deprived of food. Stop taking the pills, or stop the diet,

and I was back to being ravenous. "

But if Hoodia is what they say it is, it'll be completely different.

You won't feel hungry, and there will BE NO SIDE effects. Come to

think of it, it's sorta of like taking a hypothetical smart pill

everyday. I know I'd sure as hell do it...even if when I stopped

taking it I became my usual dumb self again. That's no argument

against using it.

" On my current diet, I'd say my body is using less food, or digesting

what I eat better, or something, but I'm not deprived, I'm in balance.

My appetite WORKS now -- it makes me feel hungry when it's good to

feel hungry. Which makes me think something got FIXED -- just blocking

my appetite centers wouldn't fix anything, I think. Plus the food I do

crave tends to be healthier (greens are high on my craving list at the

moment). Again, I want my appetite working! My appetite is a good

thing, and dulling it would be like wearing gloves while typing --

taking away an essential part of my nervous system. Now if I was a

tribesperson on a long hike with no food I might feel differently -- I

dull my pain centers when I burn myself too! "

I'm not disagreeing with you--you would probably be one of the lucky

people who wouldn't even NEED or want this product. But most people

would need it, as reflected by the obesity epidemic we're experiencing.

" It isn't marketed as a cacti leaves. It is marketed as pills. "

It's not being marketed at all. Pfizer holds the rights to it and

won't come out until 2004-2007. I'm sure some crooks are selling

'hoodia' but it's probably a scam.

" Now coffee is a food too, but it's also a drug. It works by acting on

the brain. From the sounds of this Hoodia, it too works on the brain.

Hence, it is a drug. "

That seems like very specious reasoning to me. Something that acts on

the brain is a drug? Is playing video games a drug? Is eating pasta?

" Cool, so it makes you feel good and turns you into a healthy

tribesman, while you continue to eat SAD and drink too much. What more

could you ask? "

I'm not saying it cures any of the problems we're experiencing. But

it's a HUGE step in the right direction.

Personally, I'd love it only because I hate worrying about food. I

hate getting nagging cravings during the day. I'm quite lean in fact,

get plenty of exercise, and it clean (no sugar icecream is as

unhealthy as I get). For me, it's just a convenience thing.

The talk about drugs which make sleep obsolete excite me even more!

Cheers,

-

[Guest guest]

That's a good point. You'd probably have to place special attention on

getting sufficient fluids. It's not like people are getting plenty of

water these days, anyway. If anything, it might draw attention to the

problem.

With that said, I have no idea how the suppresion thing would work. I

can barely imagine it. Even when I'm stuffed I can still concieve

eating some more icecream. I wonder if taking hoodia would set up some

gag mechanism or something. I'm hoping it does what they say it

does...and simply eliminates food from your thoughts.

I'd assume you could still drink water if you wanted too. I don't see

why not. You'd need to remind yourself, probably.

-

----

> Apparently it suppresses thirst as well as appetite, which makes

sense as

> far as it being a moisture-conserving cactus. But suppressing thirst

sounds

> even worse to me than suppressing appetite.. I'm asking a bunch of

> traditional herbalists I know, about how the plant is traditionally

used.

> The marketing of the pill form does sound scary.

>

> -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

>>But if Hoodia is what they say it is, it'll be completely different.

You won't feel hungry, and there will BE NO SIDE effects

Side effects are only unwanted primary effects. And I'd bet there will be

unwanted effects even if they're not noticeable in the short run. For

safety and efficacy, in traditional herbal medicine, herbs are almost

always used in synergistic formulas so that any unwanted effects of one

herb can be balanced by another. Single herbs used medicinally almost

always cause problems when used longer than a few days and for more than

just acute problems. That's why I'd really be worried about using this

substance on a continuing basis.

So hoodia might be useful as one herb in a formula, prescribed on an

individual basis, depending on your particular patterns of imbalance. Used

any other way it would be an allopathic usage, and that's how herbs are

marketed commercially, and how people often have problems with them.

I'm hoping to get more input on this from some experienced herbalists.

-

[Guest guest]

> Personally, I'd love it only because I hate worrying about food. I

> hate getting nagging cravings during the day. I'm quite lean in

fact,

> get plenty of exercise, and it clean (no sugar icecream is as

> unhealthy as I get). For me, it's just a convenience thing.

--------, if you're eating great food and you have nagging

hunger and cravings when you try to fast and do CR, I would

suggest that CR is not for you. It sounds like your body is telling

you to eat more food. Or that something is missing from your

diet. I personally cannot fast unless it is a Milk Cure-like cleanse

where you are still getting nutrients but digestion is simplified so

the body can use digestive energy for healing instead. Some

people have high nutrient needs, for various reasons, such as

healing from an illness, repair from high levels of toxins, etc.

Listen to your body. Maybe it's telling you to eat more.

If I remember correctly, you are interested in the life lengthening

effects of calorie restriction. And maybe this is worth doing. But I

would address your present needs and present quality of life

first. Maybe your body isn't ready for fasting.

Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

[Guest guest]

> Mike,

>

> I don't see anything hilarious about this. Especially for those

> practicing CRON, this is a near god-send.

At what point does it become apparent that CRON might be a sub-

optimal choice for most people when they need such an obscure and

rare molecule in order to practice it effectively and retain their

happiness?

Chris

[Guest guest]

Which really makes me wonder how hoodia mimics satiety. It doesn't

appear to give you the actual bloated feeling or anything. In any

case, I can always drink water, so I should be ok.

-

> In a message dated 10/26/03 1:19:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> paultheo2000@y... writes:

>

> > I'd assume you could still drink water if you wanted too. I don't see

> > why not. You'd need to remind yourself, probably.

>

> I don't know, but water has significant short-term satiety value,

which for

> me makes it impossible to drink if I feel full beyond satiety.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The problem is that I'm not convinced that the body actually 'knows'

what is best for it. Clearly appestats easily get messed up as

evidenced in modern societies. Primitive societies gave up delicious

wholesome foods for empty disease inducing filth. Why? I cannot

conceive of the body as some omnipotent being which understands what

it should and shouldn't it. Most obese people feel hungry yet clearly

don't need any more food. I guess there is some truth to what you're

saying...but I've yet to discover how to figure out what exactly.

-

>

> > Personally, I'd love it only because I hate worrying about food. I

> > hate getting nagging cravings during the day. I'm quite lean in

> fact,

> > get plenty of exercise, and it clean (no sugar icecream is as

> > unhealthy as I get). For me, it's just a convenience thing.

>

> --------, if you're eating great food and you have nagging

> hunger and cravings when you try to fast and do CR, I would

> suggest that CR is not for you. It sounds like your body is telling

> you to eat more food. Or that something is missing from your

> diet. I personally cannot fast unless it is a Milk Cure-like cleanse

> where you are still getting nutrients but digestion is simplified so

> the body can use digestive energy for healing instead. Some

> people have high nutrient needs, for various reasons, such as

> healing from an illness, repair from high levels of toxins, etc.

> Listen to your body. Maybe it's telling you to eat more.

>

> If I remember correctly, you are interested in the life lengthening

> effects of calorie restriction. And maybe this is worth doing. But I

> would address your present needs and present quality of life

> first. Maybe your body isn't ready for fasting.

>

> Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

>

>

[Guest guest]

That doesn't become apparant at all.

Your claim is that because something is difficult it cannot be

healthful????

-

> > Mike,

> >

> > I don't see anything hilarious about this. Especially for those

> > practicing CRON, this is a near god-send.

>

> At what point does it become apparent that CRON might be a sub-

> optimal choice for most people when they need such an obscure and

> rare molecule in order to practice it effectively and retain their

> happiness?

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

Most obese people feel hungry yet clearly

> don't need any more food. I guess there is some truth to what

you're

> saying...but I've yet to discover how to figure out what exactly.

----------the reason obese people are so hungry is because they

DO need to eat more... of the healing foods in NT! Obesity is not

caused by overeating, per se. I've known people who put on

weight eating miniscule amounts of food. Their bodies are out

of whack because of SAD and the resulting hormonal problems

it brings. I always ate way more than my friends with weight

problems! (Granted, some obese people DO overeat, because

their nutrient starved bodies are insatiable.)

I certainly don't think we should just eat according to impulses,

but a healthy body eating healthy food should have healthy

cravings. I believe cravings and hunger are the bodies natural

response to a deficiency. (Thus people eating themselves to

obesity and still being hungry!)

Case in point: I used to be a binge eater. I would eat low-carb

for months, and then lose it and eat bags of candy and chips. I

have been a total sugar addict my whole life, so much so that

Iwould hide and steal candy as a kid. Since I adopted NT, and

did the Garden of Life protocol, the desire for candy has all but

disappeared. I actually looked at a bowl of candies the other day

and remembered what it was like to want them, but didn't

actually want them! This is a miracle for me! And I do eat carbs

now, but in the form of raw honey and creamcheese on a

banana fried in cococut oil. NT has actually freed me to enjoy the

occasional healthy sweet, without the attendant hypoglycemia

and onrush of cravings.

So I still believe that if you're eating a healthy NT diet, and are

having cravings and hunger, that your body wants something it's

not getting. Either more food, or you are maybe not assimilating

something you're eating due to a digestive track not completely

healed or food allergies. Even the unhealthy cravings of an

obese person are messages from the body. Even if we don't

give into the impulses, we should listen to the message of need.

Respectfully,

[Guest guest]

Well, since I don't really NT, I can't comment, unfortunately. Like

most people I don't have access to raw milk, raw cheese, raw grass fed

meat, etc. My family's too lazy to even buy organic fruits and veggies

most of the time.

I find it amazing how you were able to conquer your previous

addictions. I personally don't indulge in anything with sugar (or

honey...since I can't get it raw) but I'm sure most commercial junk

would taste delicious to me. The rotting effect on the teeth does

disgust me though.

My point about the Hoobia cactus was somewhat specific to myself.

While I enjoy eating... there are other things in my life which

concern me more. So I hate thinking about food during non-eating

hours. For me, that cactus would be a godsend (I think). I think it

would improve my overall eating habits as well, in all likilihood.

The issue of cravings is incredibly fascinating. I did see a study

where children lacking vitamin A actually choose to eat cod liver oil

over something more palatable. In most cases though, my appetite sends

me the WRONG signals! Perhaps if I lived in an environment where there

was no junk or semi-junk food and there was plenty of wholesome food I

must trust my instinct more!

Cheers,

-

> Most obese people feel hungry yet clearly

> > don't need any more food. I guess there is some truth to what

> you're

> > saying...but I've yet to discover how to figure out what exactly.

>

> ----------the reason obese people are so hungry is because they

> DO need to eat more... of the healing foods in NT! Obesity is not

> caused by overeating, per se. I've known people who put on

> weight eating miniscule amounts of food. Their bodies are out

> of whack because of SAD and the resulting hormonal problems

> it brings. I always ate way more than my friends with weight

> problems! (Granted, some obese people DO overeat, because

> their nutrient starved bodies are insatiable.)

>

> I certainly don't think we should just eat according to impulses,

> but a healthy body eating healthy food should have healthy

> cravings. I believe cravings and hunger are the bodies natural

> response to a deficiency. (Thus people eating themselves to

> obesity and still being hungry!)

>

> Case in point: I used to be a binge eater. I would eat low-carb

> for months, and then lose it and eat bags of candy and chips. I

> have been a total sugar addict my whole life, so much so that

> Iwould hide and steal candy as a kid. Since I adopted NT, and

> did the Garden of Life protocol, the desire for candy has all but

> disappeared. I actually looked at a bowl of candies the other day

> and remembered what it was like to want them, but didn't

> actually want them! This is a miracle for me! And I do eat carbs

> now, but in the form of raw honey and creamcheese on a

> banana fried in cococut oil. NT has actually freed me to enjoy the

> occasional healthy sweet, without the attendant hypoglycemia

> and onrush of cravings.

>

> So I still believe that if you're eating a healthy NT diet, and are

> having cravings and hunger, that your body wants something it's

> not getting. Either more food, or you are maybe not assimilating

> something you're eating due to a digestive track not completely

> healed or food allergies. Even the unhealthy cravings of an

> obese person are messages from the body. Even if we don't

> give into the impulses, we should listen to the message of need.

>

> Respectfully,

>

[Guest guest]

> That doesn't become apparant at all.

>

> Your claim is that because something is difficult it cannot be

> healthful????

,

I suppose that's a moderately accurate paraphrase. There's nothing

remotely difficult about my diet, and I fail to see how it isn't

radically more healthful than most other people's diets.

I suppose it wouldn't be too fruitful to push this debate, since

we've already had it, and since it ultimately comes down to a matter

of choice, whether one is inclined to inflict hardship and probable

psychological damage to themselves over some obscure goal that will

not be recognized for literally an entire lifetime, may well never be

recognized, doesn't have sure scientific validation, etc.

Ultimately, the best case against calorie restriction is

philosophical and not scientific. Why is life worth making longer if

it just makes it harder? Clearly CRON doesn't make it harder for

Mike , so kudos to him, but from what you've written, clearly

it *does* make it harder for you.

There are two other reasons why it seems quite apparent that CRON is

a sub-optimal choice for you. First, like me, you are young and

growing still, and a male, and guys our age have much higher calorie

requirement than the average person attempting to engage in CRON.

Second, like me, you have an interest in weight lifting and gaining

muscle mass, which makes CRON clearly a sub-optimal diet, as caloric

excess is necessary for growth. Granted, perhaps not for strength,

as we've discussed before, but certainly for growth.

But essentially what I was saying is that if you are deliberately

imposing an unnatural restriction of calories on yourself for a goal

that exists in your mind, the efficacy of which you have no way of

validating within this lifetime,if your body is crying out for more

food, there's a good chance it might be because it needs more food.

Chris

[Guest guest]

-

It's not difficult for the vast majority of sugar addicts to kick their

addiction provided they eat a healthy, high-fat low-carb diet. It worked

for me.

>I find it amazing how you were able to conquer your previous

>addictions.

-

[Guest guest]

> Well, since I don't really NT, I can't comment, unfortunately. Like

> most people I don't have access to raw milk, raw cheese, raw

grass fed

> meat, etc. My family's too lazy to even buy organic fruits and

veggies

> most of the time.

------- you poor thing! Is this because you live somewhere

where it's not available,or because you're young and at the mercy

of what your family buys?

I would still eat lots of good meats and animal fats, whatever you

can get your hands on. Especially if you're young and growing,

please don't deprive yourself of fat and protein because optimal

meat (grass-fed) isn't available to you. Just avoid the processed

carbs (which it sounds like you do already). You can get good

sprouted breads (Ezekiel bread) in a lot of regular grocery

stores, now. It's delicious toasted with almond butter and butter.

It sounds like you're frustrated cuz your nutritional knowlege far

outstrips your access to good food. I would hate that. Just do

what you can and try not to obsess. I know from personal

experience that obsession with food and limiting food is often a

result of zinc and b vitamin deficiencies (this is part of what

triggers anorexia in young girls who go on a diet). Could you

order some x-factor butter oil from radiant life with your own

money? That would add some good nutrition daily to your diet.

You need to hurry, though, because Oct. is the last month it is

produced before the winter (no growing grass).

Good Luck!

[Guest guest]

" There's nothing remotely difficult about my diet, and I fail to see

how it isn't radically more healthful than most other people's diets. "

there is something difficult about your diet. How many people

have easy access to the foods you do??

" Ultimately, the best case against calorie restriction is

philosophical and not scientific. Why is life worth making longer if

it just makes it harder? Clearly CRON doesn't make it harder for

Mike , so kudos to him, but from what you've written, clearly

it *does* make it harder for you. "

That's not a case against CR. It's a case against not everyone

attempting it. You're right...I'm probably not one of those people cut

up for it. HOWEVER, if the hoodia cactus acts as promised, it's a

godsend in attempting CR for most people.

" There are two other reasons why it seems quite apparent that CRON is

a sub-optimal choice for you. First, like me, you are young and

growing still, and a male, and guys our age have much higher calorie

requirement than the average person attempting to engage in CRON.

Second, like me, you have an interest in weight lifting and gaining

muscle mass, which makes CRON clearly a sub-optimal diet, as caloric

excess is necessary for growth. Granted, perhaps not for strength,

as we've discussed before, but certainly for growth. "

All reasons I use to justify my non-CRish diet

" But essentially what I was saying is that if you are deliberately

> imposing an unnatural restriction of calories on yourself for a goal

> that exists in your mind, the efficacy of which you have no way of

> validating within this lifetime,if your body is crying out for more

> food, there's a good chance it might be because it needs more food. "

Well, there are other benefits to CR (or eating healthy in general)

which are definitely noticeable. And if I hit 90 in good health, it'll

have been worth it (if it's easy to do with hoodia).

-

[Guest guest]

Eating low carb is very difficult for most people. Bread, pastry,

potatoes are omnipresent in our society.

-

> -

>

> It's not difficult for the vast majority of sugar addicts to kick their

> addiction provided they eat a healthy, high-fat low-carb diet. It

worked

> for me.

>

> >I find it amazing how you were able to conquer your previous

> >addictions.

>

>

>

> -