Re: Taking a swipe at our art

June 3, 2010

ambrosia@... wrote:

> Anya's Garden Perfumes wrote:

>

>>

>> http://perfumemaker.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html

>>

> He does have a point...one of the things about natural perfumery is that

> it is impossible to create identical batches year after year....however,

> for many of us this is also part of it's charm.

>

Hi Ambrosia:

His point isn't relevant, IMHO. It's the synth perfumers who want

identical scents. You use the word charm - and I extend that to terroir

- the charm and variability of a place, as a winemaker would. Wouldn't

it be a horrible world if the Cote du Rhone reds (yum!) were identical

year-to-year?

> And he is also correct that it will be an ever growing challenge for

> many of us to create larger quantities of our perfumes.

> I ran into that challenge the first time I was approached about actually

> producing a perfume for a large company.

> They wanted quotes for 10 to 20kg of base of a perfume I would design

> for them.Even the alternative of me just handing them a formular was

> difficult...so much of what I make needs various stages of filtering,

> tincturing etc.....

>

They should have had chemists on staff to do the math for you, unless

they were just fishing to find some of your secrets. It is very, very

easy to scale perfume formulas using specific gravity. I can scale

anything from 1ml to a zillion kgs, not that I'm given to exaggeration ;-)

> As a niche art, what we do is wonderful. On a commercial basis, it does

> have challenges.

>

I don't know of any natural perfumer who is commercial, and by that I

mean Guerlain- or Caron-scale commercial. Some have good-size

enterprises, like andra B, but even that is tiny in comparison. I

think we are just right, luxury, rare, artisan, perfect scale. That's

what that blogger doesn't get. Doesn't get at all.

> On the other hand, the more people like him insist what we do can't be

> done...the more business they abandon to us, grin!

> Which is why I no longer try to convince them otherwise!

>

He talks of a men's cologne he made named Toxic. Nuff said ;-)

> Ambrosa

> http://perfumebynature.blogspot.com

>

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

June 3, 2010

> Hi Anya, Ambrosia:

I think his final point was, " The hard lesson is that we must think twice

about our sources and continuity of supply before we make a big commitment

to a new formula. "

I think his " hard lesson " is indeed a valid point, but one that pretty much

goes without saying. My feeling is that he is being kind of arrogant to

think something like that even needs to be pointed out to a natural

perfumer. Of course anyone who has the intention of makeing perfume on a

large scale would have to consider the availability of the raw materials,

etc.

What he is doing (without coming right out and saying it ) is putting down

the idea of making perfume from solely natural ingredients. His

condescending tone makes the idea doing something like that seem so silly

and naive.

The problem is, he doesn't appreciate the challenge and difficulty a natural

perfumer has in doing so and the fact that they take this on *by choice. *As

you pointed out, Anya.... natural perfume making is more like wine making.

I *am* a winemaker and, really, I have to say it is part of the reason I am

drawn to natural perfumery in the first place. There is something quite as

special about creating art with these elements of nature.

The bottom line is, he is comparing apples and oranges and completely

missing the point.

from Cali

June 9, 2010

There is something quite as

> special about creating art with these elements of nature.

>

> The bottom line is, he is comparing apples and oranges and completely

> missing the point.

>

It's the age old debate over what is more valid, handcrafted artisan made

limited edition or large quantities of mass produced. This debate rages on

surrounding every art form.

Some people are wired to be technical producers of multiples, others are artists

who value the rarity of small and focused results.

Me thinks he intentionally misses the point in order to validate himself.

June 10, 2010

Me thinks he intentionally misses the point in order to validate himself.

Artistefem,

>

You know... I think you have a very good point! ;o)

Chris

June 10, 2010

>

> Me thinks he intentionally misses the point in order to validate himself.

>

I've read his blog post... I think he's completely missed the point about the

nature of art, and is imposing some other kind of intent and aesthetic on his

own explorations into 'natural perfumery'.

Some examples with which no-one ever argues:

One can attend a live performance of a famous symphony, and maybe go several

times in the season... each perfomance will have nuances different from the

previous performance, and the one which follows... yet the notes, as written,

remain unchanged, forever.

One can hear a recording of the symphony - the commercially, mass-produced

version - over and over again, but will it be as alive and nuanced as the

representation created by a group of artist-musicicans under the baton of a

conducter who seeks perfection in a constant state of evolving expression?

We might also look at print-making in the visual arts.... who on earth expects

that every print will be identical?

Print-artists number each print, they become limited editions, yet still sell -

if they're any good

Those who come to love the work of such an artist, may choose to collect

subsequent works, knowing that one will never be the same as another.

We might only take the works of Shakespeare to see that there can be variance,

and reproducibility... yet the words never change....

We could also move into the nature of impermanence in all things... and that

brings us to philosophy....

..... and so our celebration of the transient, of the subtle and the finely

wrought, of precious and soul-filled... continues...

Margi Mac

{ who is politely re-working this post a little, and leaving it as a comment on

M Goutell's blog }

June 12, 2010

I just think he is being extremely presumptuous.

He presumes that we should all WANT to aspire to large scale commercial

perfumery.

Natural Perfumery is a fine Art. He seems rather naive about the whole thing

really.

Perhaps he should spend some time talking with natural perfumers about WHY we

do what we do and then maybe he just MIGHT understand.

On top of all that, a lot of us do this because we enjoy using materials in

their natural form as opposed to synthetics, for aesthetic reasons and

environmental too, and we do it for love, not just to turn a buck!

Any money I make through my perfumes I consider a blessing, not the be all and

end all.

If I could choose between a studio with EO's and absolutes, tinctures and

resins, and drying herbs to a " lab " with test tubes full of synthetic chemicals,

I'll tell you right now where I'd rather be!

Phooey, lol!

June 12, 2010

> .... and so our celebration of the transient, of the subtle and the finely

wrought, of precious and soul-filled... continues...

>

> Margi Mac

> { who is politely re-working this post a little, and leaving it as a comment

on M Goutell's blog }

>

I'm posting a small response to all the posts in this thread here because I like

what Margi has written.

I guess I knocked over a hornet's nest with my blog entry. It was unexpected and

quite unintentional.

Anya's original post was pretty much on target -- I'm not a natural perfumer, I

recently signed up for the group, and I've never made a tincture. But I do make

perfume, following my own muse, whether it is profitable or not.

Far from wanting to put down natural perfumery, the efforts of people in this

group fascinate me. They fascinate me in part because of the technical hardships

(?) involved in this art. But there are technical hardships involved in any art

-- and making perfumer by any means can also be an art. You don't have to go

" all natural " to be an artist. So if what I do isn't exactly what you do, so

what? Does that mean that we can't be respectful toward each other and possibly

even learn from each other?

I have no desire to impose my views on others, but I have no need to have the

views of others imposed on me.

A story about " repeatability " -- the issue that gave rise to all this.

I had a friend -- a graphic artist, single mother, struggling to get start a

small enterprise. She designed greeting cards, went to a big trade show (with

her itsy-bitsy business) and took orders .... because her work was really

excellent.

To fill the orders she took her artwork to a printer. The printer failed to

follow instructions and, rather than art, produced junk.

End of business. Money, time and effort lost.

I've HAD it happen to me on a smaller scale. Only last week a bottle I was

buying was suddenly discontinued by my source, just as I had developed my

graphics and photography around that bottle. Sure, not the end of the world but

yet a warning. (And the quantity involved was hardly a large number.)

Again, I have followed the posts of this group to learn, not to criticize.

Having started out in life as a writer, I've always had to deal with sometimes

pretty nasty criticism while keeping my head on my shoulders. The last thing I

want at this point in my life it to " run down " anyone. Sorry for the

misunderstandings and interpretation of my tone.

-- Phil

June 12, 2010

> Far from wanting to put down natural perfumery, the efforts of people in this

group fascinate me. They fascinate me in part because of the technical hardships

(?) involved in this art. But there are technical hardships involved in any art

-- and making perfumer by any means can also be an art. You don't have to go

" all natural " to be an artist. So if what I do isn't exactly what you do, so

what? Does that mean that we can't be respectful toward each other and possibly

even learn from each other?

>

Hi Phil...

Welcome to the NP List...Honest....<G>...!

I've been here on the NP List for a while, and I'm only speaking for

myself...

When I read your words...I could see that you are probably not familiar

with a lot that underlies NP....

Here's my take....

I wish to follow the art with essences that come from Nature. Period.

It's a *Way*...

Art is Art. Perfumery is an Art.

I hope it's not taken as a putdown, when I refer to Perfumers that use

synths as Unnatural Perfumers....<G>...!

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

A.J.P. (GIA)

http://www.facebook.com/Le.Hermite

June 12, 2010

I wanted to add that my thoughts above, though written before Phil posted, were

delayed in being added to this thread.

I appreciate that you took the time to come and explain your 'take' on things

Phil.

I guess we are a proud and aggressively protective group at times.

June 12, 2010

I wanted to add that my thoughts above, though written before Phil posted, were

delayed in being added to this thread.

I appreciate that you took the time to come and explain your 'take' on things

Phil.

I guess we are a proud and aggressively protective group at times.

June 13, 2010

>

> I'm posting a small response to all the posts in this thread here because I

like what Margi has written.

>

> I guess I knocked over a hornet's nest with my blog entry. It was unexpected

and quite unintentional.

>

> Anya's original post was pretty much on target -- I'm not a natural perfumer,

I recently signed up for the group, and I've never made a tincture. But I do

make perfume, following my own muse, whether it is profitable or not.

>

> Far from wanting to put down natural perfumery, the efforts of people in this

group fascinate me. They fascinate me in part because of the technical hardships

(?) involved in this art. But there are technical hardships involved in any art

-- and making perfumer by any means can also be an art. You don't have to go

" all natural " to be an artist. So if what I do isn't exactly what you do, so

what? Does that mean that we can't be respectful toward each other and possibly

even learn from each other?

>

> I have no desire to impose my views on others, but I have no need to have the

views of others imposed on me.

>

> A story about " repeatability " -- the issue that gave rise to all this.

>

> I had a friend -- a graphic artist, single mother, struggling to get start a

small enterprise. She designed greeting cards, went to a big trade show (with

her itsy-bitsy business) and took orders .... because her work was really

excellent.

>

> To fill the orders she took her artwork to a printer. The printer failed to

follow instructions and, rather than art, produced junk.

>

> End of business. Money, time and effort lost.

>

> I've HAD it happen to me on a smaller scale. Only last week a bottle I was

buying was suddenly discontinued by my source, just as I had developed my

graphics and photography around that bottle. Sure, not the end of the world but

yet a warning. (And the quantity involved was hardly a large number.)

>

> Again, I have followed the posts of this group to learn, not to criticize.

Having started out in life as a writer, I've always had to deal with sometimes

pretty nasty criticism while keeping my head on my shoulders. The last thing I

want at this point in my life it to " run down " anyone. Sorry for the

misunderstandings and interpretation of my tone.

>

> -- Phil

>

Hi Phil:

Thanks for taking the time to respond and explain your POV. I'm so

slammed with work, I am taking these few minutes to reply to you,

probably the only post I'll be able to make for the next couple of days,

because I want to say that I appreciate your response and I hope we can

go forward with you contributing and giving credit where credit is due.

When I read your blog, and I knew you had recently joined us, I knew

that you were taking the tincture information from here, and I was

wondering why you didn't mention the group, this resource. The source of

your information about tincturing deserved a mention, because we're the

folks that enabled you to get the info and post about it, right or

wrong. Of course, I also disagreed with your POV on our art, and I'll

leave it to the intelligent and explanatory posts of others in this

thread to explain the reasoning of who we are and what we do - and why

we do it.

You give two examples of lost opportunities due to either inept

" subcontractors " for want of a better word, or discontinued product. We

deal with that sort of thing all the time. It's up to us to either have

more foresight and hire good people and manage them, or have alternative

sources for things. No big deal. I hope you realize that we're a rather

unique breed of artist and we just deal with what we have. Unexpected

shortages or pitfalls are part of the process, they doesn't stop the

process.

Glad to have you on board and I look forward to your participation here

- and credit on your blog if you muse further about our artsy ways ;-)

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

June 13, 2010

A warm welcome, Phil!

> I know I'm the minority here but I do get what you write. Just wrote

about it in another group. If artisan perfume making is an art there are

many colors one can use for their pallet. For me all artisan perfumers are

created equal and different choices on perfume materials are simply personal

choices. What we all have in common is the desire to passionately create

beautiful perfumes. I wish we all could pay more attention to that and

exchange that creative fire in peace, without putting down other choices

than our own in order to validate them.

Irina

June 13, 2010

A warm welcome, Phil!

> I know I'm the minority here but I do get what you write. Just wrote

about it in another group. If artisan perfume making is an art there are

many colors one can use for their pallet. For me all artisan perfumers are

created equal and different choices on perfume materials are simply personal

choices. What we all have in common is the desire to passionately create

beautiful perfumes. I wish we all could pay more attention to that and

exchange that creative fire in peace, without putting down other choices

than our own in order to validate them.

Irina

June 13, 2010

I'm sorry to keep this going but from the start I've failed to see the problem

with Phil's blog and probably should have come to his defense earlier but

thought I must have been missing something. I believe that he is as entitled as

anyone else to express his opinion, right, wrong or otherwise and from what I

interpreted, he wasn't taking a swipe of any kind, just blogging on his own site

about an aspect relating to perfumery that is of interest to himself and

hopefully his blog followers. He made mention that he had observed a trend in

tincturing, and I personally think that it was not essential that he mention

where he had acquired that information - since we can gather all kinds of

information from everywhere, not just a forum dedicated to a particular interest

- although in this case it's likely this forum was his source. Whatever the

case, he's offered up his own thoughts on the matter because it's something that

has importance to him.

At the risk of sounding disrespectful to you Anya, and that's something I surely

do not want to be perceived as being, I think that directly requesting " credit "

or some kind of acknowledgment when someone is writing for their own personal

blog (about whatever they choose) is something akin to insisting that someone

repeatedly thank you for something when one thank you is enough. If someone is

simply musing, then I just don't think that they should feel obliged to list

what they have been reading, unless of course they decide to quote the ideas or

words of someone else, etc.

On a personal note, I had gathered plenty of information on tincturing (and many

other aspects of natural perfumery) from various websites as well as library

books prior to joining this forum and it was this information that initially

sparked my interest in natural perfumery. This is not to say that I don't

believe this forum to be an incredible source and wealth of real, hands-on

knowledge provided by extremely generous individuals, but simply to highlight

that we all gather information from far and wide and should feel free to do so

without necessarily feeling the need to list each and every source any time we

wish to speak or write about something that interests us.

As always there is a danger when writing that others will not perceive

our 'tone' as we intend it, so if I can clarify - topic at hand aside,

all people, particularly those involved in a specialized forum, should

have the right to express their own thoughts and opinions without fear of a

public " bashing " (for lack of a better term) and I sincerely hope that this

email will not be met with hostility as I simply want to voice my opinion and

ideas on the matter. I thank you all for reading.

June 13, 2010

> I'm sorry to keep this going but from the start I've failed to see the problem

with Phil's blog and probably should have come to his defense earlier but

thought I must have been missing something. I believe that he is as entitled as

anyone else to express his opinion, right, wrong or otherwise and from what I

interpreted, he wasn't taking a swipe of any kind, just blogging on his own site

about an aspect relating to perfumery that is of interest to himself and

hopefully his blog followers.

>

Hi :

I'm sitting here mindlessly making labels, so even though I said I

probably wouldn't have time to post for a few days, I wanted to reply to

your post.

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions. I think I fit in that

category, sorry you didn't like mine. You haven't been in this group

long enough to see the history, and why sometimes we (me) are a bit

sensitive to what - and I'm using just myself as an example here - may

be seen as a swipe.

It took time for me to write about Phil's blog. Anybody who knows me

knows I have very little spare time, so there was something in his blog

that just compelled me to make the time. For instance, I *have* to carve

out some time in the next day or two to blog about a natural perfumer

who claims (on a *huge* perfume site that reaches tens of thousands each

day) that natural perfumes spoil. Maybe hers do, but I have no

experience with natural perfumes spoiling, and I have many, many bottles

from many different perfumers, since they submit them to me for

evaluation for membership in the Natural Perfumers Guild. I commented

briefly there the other day, but I need to really set the record

straight for my readers, and to get my experience out there. I guess

because of my long history and bit of a high profile in the art, I feel

the need to step out and set the record straight from time to time.

That's my opinion, hope you can see it.

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

June 13, 2010