Re: Odds of mold toxicity symptoms being reversible

[Guest guest]

Steve, I can't imagine that allergy symptoms would be as serious as

symptoms you are having. As for season, have you had a hard freeze

yet this year? Dr Rae, Dr from Dallas, says that mold gets worse,

not better in the fall. He says things don't improve until your

area gets a few days of a hard freeze. Maybe all the falling leaves

decaying? He also said mold seems to like weather in the 50's. Not

sure why that either. Could it be that air is more humid in the

fall due to still alot of humidity and mold in soil from summer and

air cooling off causes a higher humidity, or these to 'condense' in

some way higher before it gets lower? I don't know. We have had a

hard freeze here and humidity has dipped and things are feeling

better in my home. It makes me want to move home but I'm sure I

should not. I put 8 hours in at my office, and some work I turned

in, my boss said was 'awsome'. She hardly ever says that. I don't

know if I just had 'one' good day or whether living away from the

house is paying off. It certainly is costing enough. I

don't 'feel' any different but my energy did last all day. I didn't

notice it myself until other people made comments, like 'wow, you

are putting in a long day' and my bosses compliments. I hope it

continues. It would be nice to have money coming in, rather than

out. Anyway, I doubt allergies could cause all the things you are

reporting.

--- In , " shybasset " <shybasset@...>

wrote:

>

> Now that I had developed significant Multiple Chemical

sensitivities

> taht kicked in hard about 2 weeks ago and are persistent

[Guest guest]

Sharon's message gives me idea that perhaps trying to construct what

people here call a 'clean room' is something you can do. If you only

sleep in it, that is 8+ hours away from what is ailing you, assuming

it is in the environment, rather than an illness, etc.

The way you do that is to remove everything from one room including

carpet, anything poroused and just something to sleep on that is not

previously exposed to house, like an air mattress, outfitted with a

few mattres cover, sheets, new pillows and pillow cases and nothing

else in the room. Room needs more preparation than this but since I

don't know if you are interested, I won't go on, but perhaps you can

do this and get some relief and also test whether it is in your

environment or in you.

--- In , " tigerpaw2c " <tigerpaw2c@...>

wrote:

>

> Since you are not sure what is making you ill I would do a little

> experiment, with the assistance of a friend or family member, remove

> the carpeting in one room, windows open to help air it out,

> naturally run the air purifier afterwards. After a couple of days of

> airing out,

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I think we are both wrong. Instead of saying an allergen I should

have used the term irritant. Big difference. And yes some of the

symptoms can become somewhat severe. This is one stage many of us go

through in the beginning. You don't go from being normal to

toxic,you go through stages and irritant is very important.

Sharon

> >

> > Now that I had developed significant Multiple Chemical

> sensitivities

> > taht kicked in hard about 2 weeks ago and are persistent

>

[Guest guest]

-steve, i can only compare with my own experience for what its worth.

i linked the severe burning of my nose with stachy in my first home

but it wasn't until toward the last year or so of staying there when

it got really bad. early on in my exposure there, I reported to my

doctor of haveing a strange taste in my mouth and was constantly

blowing my nose witch seemed extremly dry and brushing my teeth

several times a day trying to get rid of this taste in my mouth that

tasted like dirt. yes there were some other molds there but when

tested by swab,tape and air, they were low in amounts compared to

stachy and for stachy to even pick up on air tests, a lot higher than

others speaks for itself and I suffered many symptoms of T-mycotoxin

exposure during this time. this home was a 3 story and in the

beganning of mold growth from roof leaks there were rooms that I know

now that were less toxic than others but after several years it

filtrated throughout and toward the end there would not of been a

room that I could clean well enough to stay in , nor is there now. I

dont think it would be possable to clean one room and keep it sealed

off from the rest. even opening the door to get in would cause a air

draft.and this home had no carpet or paddings, just some throw rugs

that I cleaned every year outside. it was in the walls and my house

dust was black not brown. doing a white glove test may tell you

something if its filtrated through out your house and if its stachy

or other black molds. my second home was really bad and while some of

the same symptoms got worse, a few got better and some new ones also

happened. mostly the same molds as first home but in very different

amounts and a few extra ones. my nose didn't burn in this home but

dripped like crazy and caused a lot of sores in and around my nose.

the smell in this house was very bad after the other smells used to

cover it up where dealt with. in this home the glands behind my ears

swelled my ears shut and clear fluid was comeing out of them and my

nose and I was caughing it up. during this time I could not have

added 2+2. this place had wall to wall carpet and my grandbaby was

crawling around on them and got very ill and his hair fell out.I hate

to say try this but one night of sleeping on the carpeted floors and

if your much sicker it might be a clue that its the carpet, what ever

is in it, which might be some kind of chemical and not mold at all.if

you just put your nose to it and have more of a reaction than I

wouldn't try to sleep there at all, it could also be something under

the house coming up through the floors which would make the smell in

your carpet. rayon,methane poisoning, etc. heres one thing to

consider, if you have MCS now it could be a lot of things and not

mold at all. I would be interested to know if you are not so sick

that you can tell when a added irritant is bothering you, because I

remember haveing so many symptoms going on that even if I would have

known what MCS was than, I cant say that I would have known if I had

it or not. it does sound like if you dont have it yet your on the way

to getting it. do you have pain in your liver? do you have what seams

to be bladder and kidney infections? a toxin is a toxin,you can get

much worse no matter what kind it is. if you do have mcs it could be

something in your home thats getting to you but might not bother

someone without mcs. I would at least have a mold inspector come in,

if he finds mold first just have tape test done, or even just do some

tape tests your self in send them in to a lab. even if you dont see

what looks like mold, just stick the tape in several places. maybe

have dust sample from your vacum cleaner tested. start with clean bag

and send it straight in to be tested. no one here can tell you what

your breathing. does anyone else get sick when they come in your

home? do you have a basement or crawlspace? can you describe the

smell or is there a smell? carbonmyoxide and rayon have no smell,

rayon might, not sure.if your pretty sure it was mold from infested

throw rugs you had in there, did they smell really bad? if it was

mold fro them it stands to reason that it may of gotten blown around

the house and filtered into your carpet but it would still need

moisture to grow, but if those carpets were full of mycotoxins I can

see where just that alone could be getting to you and if you pull up

be careful not to raise a dust. if your carpet is full of mold from

those throw rugs you had layed on them,you might even be able to

stick a piece of 2 inch tape several times to the carpet and pick up

enough to have tested. vacumming is not a good thing to do with mold

infested carpet. if you have vacummed did it make you sicker? I know

it made me much sicker when I vacummed the moldy carpet in my second

home. -- In , " tigerpaw2c "

<tigerpaw2c@...> wrote:

>

> Barb,

>

> I think we are both wrong. Instead of saying an allergen I should

> have used the term irritant. Big difference. And yes some of the

> symptoms can become somewhat severe. This is one stage many of us

go

> through in the beginning. You don't go from being normal to

> toxic,you go through stages and irritant is very important.

>

> Sharon

>

>

> > >

> > > Now that I had developed significant Multiple Chemical

> > sensitivities

> > > taht kicked in hard about 2 weeks ago and are persistent

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Steve, I can't imagine that allergy symptoms would be as serious as

> symptoms you are having. As for season, have you had a hard freeze

> yet this year? Dr Rae, Dr from Dallas, says that mold gets worse,

> not better in the fall. He says things don't improve until your

> area gets a few days of a hard freeze. Maybe all the falling leaves

> decaying? He also said mold seems to like weather in the 50's. Not

> sure why that either. Could it be that air is more humid in the

> fall due to still alot of humidity and mold in soil from summer and

> air cooling off causes a higher humidity, or these to 'condense' in

> some way higher before it gets lower? I don't know. We have had a

> hard freeze here and humidity has dipped and things are feeling

> better in my home.

Barb,

I also noticed that the existing mold contaminations got a lot worse

when the temperature dropped. Or perhaps it has also something to do

with higher humidity at the beginning of Fall? don't know.

But according to these articles, the toxins we fear the most,

trichothecenes - are produced best when the temperature is below 10

degrees celsius (that's about 50 F).

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/mycotoxins.html

" There were still some problems, notably that some of the pollen was

from plants not found in Indo-China, and the presence of synthetic

chemicals like polyethylene glycol. Another was that trichothecenes

are only manufactured at low temperatures (lower than 10°C (50°F))

that are not normally found in Indo-China. Subsequently, defectors

from Laos and Vietnam admitted to the use of some forms of chemical

weapons as did some Soviet prisoners of war taken in Afghanistan. "

and this:

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/T2.html

" Outbreaks of alimentary toxic aleukia (ATA) that killed thousands in

an already devastated post-World War II Soviet Union had their origins

in grains left over winter in the fields under conditions ideal for

trichothecene synthesis. These grains were scant gleanings that would

have been left for the birds in better days. "

So.. maybe most of the mold colony does go dormant and doesn't

multiply further, but on the other hand increases the production of

toxins because it feels 'threatened'?

Does Dr. Rea think things will get better when the full-blown Winter

weather comes complete with much colder weather and snow?

[Guest guest]

Branislav,

I believe the mold activity dies down after a

hard freeze and lays dormant over freezing

temperatures. Why the increase in toxins I don't

know but that theory is as good as any. Of

course, they are just playing dead and all come

back with more offspring next spring!!

--- Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Steve, I can't imagine that allergy symptoms

> would be as serious as

> > symptoms you are having.

[Guest guest]

-seems that different types of mold thrive in different weather

condictions from early spring to deep freeze and they keep right on

thriving through the winter indoors.if you live in the corn belt

harvest time can put a lot of molds in the air and i've read about how

some molds grow more in dry stressful condictions in crops.early summer

here, the hay bailing season had the air full of mold, it was bas here

and even non-moldys said the air smelt mildewy.someone in the area was

bailing some very moldy hay. its rainy here, thats not going to help

the moister content in the corn but may cut down the amounts of mold in

the air.-- In , bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> Branislav,

> I believe the mold activity dies down after a

> hard freeze and lays dormant over freezing

> temperatures. Why the increase in toxins I don't

> know but that theory is as good as any. Of

> course, they are just playing dead and all come

> back with more offspring next spring!!

>

> --- Branislav <arealis@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > >

> > > Steve, I can't imagine that allergy symptoms

> > would be as serious as

> > > symptoms you are having.

>

[Guest guest]

When i lived for 10 years in a moldy house, where the mold was

between the walls, I never had a migraine in Jan, Feb, or March-

presummibly because it was so cold that the mold went dorment, the

worse time was when continual rains made the colony grow- I suppose

it would depend on where the colony is and if it is plumming or

rainfall supporting it.

-- In , " Branislav " <arealis@...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Steve, I can't imagine that allergy symptoms would be as serious

as

> > symptoms you are having. As for season, have you had a hard

freeze

> > yet this year? Dr Rae, Dr from Dallas, says that mold gets

worse,

> > not better in the fall. He says things don't improve until your

> > area gets a few days of a hard freeze. Maybe all the falling

leaves

> > decaying? He also said mold seems to like weather in the 50's.

Not

> > sure why that either. Could it be that air is more humid in the

> > fall due to still alot of humidity and mold in soil from summer

and

> > air cooling off causes a higher humidity, or these to 'condense'

in

> > some way higher before it gets lower? I don't know. We have

had a

> > hard freeze here and humidity has dipped and things are feeling

> > better in my home.

>

>

> Barb,

>

> I also noticed that the existing mold contaminations got a lot

worse

> when the temperature dropped. Or perhaps it has also something to

do

> with higher humidity at the beginning of Fall? don't know.

>

> But according to these articles, the toxins we fear the most,

> trichothecenes - are produced best when the temperature is below 10

> degrees celsius (that's about 50 F).

>

> http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/mycotoxins.html

>

> " There were still some problems, notably that some of the pollen

was

> from plants not found in Indo-China, and the presence of synthetic

> chemicals like polyethylene glycol. Another was that trichothecenes

> are only manufactured at low temperatures (lower than 10°C (50°F))

> that are not normally found in Indo-China. Subsequently, defectors

> from Laos and Vietnam admitted to the use of some forms of chemical

> weapons as did some Soviet prisoners of war taken in Afghanistan. "

>

>

> and this:

>

> http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/T2.html

>

> " Outbreaks of alimentary toxic aleukia (ATA) that killed thousands

in

> an already devastated post-World War II Soviet Union had their

origins

> in grains left over winter in the fields under conditions ideal for

> trichothecene synthesis. These grains were scant gleanings that

would

> have been left for the birds in better days. "

>

>

> So.. maybe most of the mold colony does go dormant and doesn't

> multiply further, but on the other hand increases the production of

> toxins because it feels 'threatened'?

>

> Does Dr. Rea think things will get better when the full-blown

Winter

> weather comes complete with much colder weather and snow?

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, of course, even if it is freezing outside,

mold can be growing inside. However if it is

freezing outside humidity inside should be very

low, unless you are humidifying air, and that

should lower mold activity inside also. So when

temperatures are at freezing levels, moldies

should feel better than they did in summer...I

would think. At least I do.

--- who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> -seems that different types of mold thrive in

> different weather

> condictions from early spring to deep freeze

> and they keep right on

> thriving through the winter indoors.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I'm confused. Should we humidify our air inside during

the winter? We use to run a humidifier during the winter because

of the static electricity but haven't done it in the past 2 yrs.

Yes, humidify or No, humidify indoors?

Sue

Yes, of course, even if it is freezing outside,

mold can be growing inside. However if it is

freezing outside humidity inside should be very

low, unless you are humidifying air, and that

should lower mold activity inside also. So when

temperatures are at freezing levels, moldies

should feel better than they did in summer...I

would think. At least I do.

[Guest guest]

--I dont think mold toxins, at least stachy mold toxins care what the

humidity level is. a study by strauss proves that stachy toxins,T-mycos

are still around for years when its dry. even inside during winter

stachy myco's can make you very ill, exspecially if your heating system

keeps them stirred up. humidity doesn't have nothing to do with dry

stachy spores floating around in your home all year around, once they

are there, they are there, and actually the dryness helps keep spores

with myco's attached and myco's airborne. humidity plays a part in mold

growing, not in the dry spores allready there.if you have heat in your

home and mold, its going to keep growing in the winter if its in your

walls, attic, basement,crawl spaces, ductwork, places where moisture

from outside air and heat from inside can combine.yes, I fell better

outside in the winter but when in my moldy home during the winter I

felt worse because heat rises and alone with that dry mold spores and

myco's.because of the way my home was built the mold spores were

constantly drifting down only to be carried back upwards in the winter

by heat.I can't tell you about other kinds of dry mold activity in

winter because I didn't manage to stay in my second moldy home in the

winter time but I amagion it would have killed me if I had, but it was

very high in many molds known to prouduce toxins. I dont think your

going to fell much better inside during winter in a moldy home, only

outside. - In , bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> Yes, of course, even if it is freezing outside,

> mold can be growing inside. However if it is

> freezing outside humidity inside should be very

> low, unless you are humidifying air, and that

> should lower mold activity inside also. So when

> temperatures are at freezing levels, moldies

> should feel better than they did in summer...I

> would think. At least I do.

>

> --- who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

>

> > -seems that different types of mold thrive in

> > different weather

> > condictions from early spring to deep freeze

> > and they keep right on

> > thriving through the winter indoors.

>

[Guest guest]

It's possible that stem cell research may eventually develop ways to repair

brain damage..

So, someday, this kind of injury may be treateable, really.

But its (perhaps even more) possible that may never happen too.

Or it may happen after our lifetimes.

[Guest guest]

-no dought that the way your home is built and what types of mold you

have, your heating system and even weather your walls are insulated

or not, so many things can play a role in how mold affects you and

when it affects you, wet or dry, growing or not growing, in the

ductwork or not, under the house, crawlspaces, dead air spaces, etc.

theres to many possablitys for anyone to suffer the same times to the

same molds.to much really to even compare to any point of being able

to really base any judgement on. I think you'd have to be a mold

spore to know or be in the same space as them with a moisture

detector and a few other tools to really know whats going on at any

given moment, they are like very busy little bees constantly looking

for somewhere to thrive and i think that dry spores are misunderstood

and from my own experience both are very bad.haveing been in 2

tottally different types of enviroments, fro one straight to the

other than after a mounth of some relief back in the first home

again, where in one home with dryer condictions where stachy was the

haed honcho to one with a high oisture problem where

aspergillus/penicillium,fusarium and other thrived. I have withnessed

a big difference in just to homes and understand just how different

exposures can be even to the point of high voc's vs. low, carpet vs.

no carpet, mold in ductwork vs. no ductwork. maybe even mold growing

closer to the ground, under house, crawl spaces, etc. premotes

different mold growth than molds grown in a attic from roof leaks,

and maybe a lot depends on what certain molds like to eat as to which

ones well grow better. so many factors, to many.-- In

, " carondeen " <kdeanstudios@...> wrote:

>

> When i lived for 10 years in a moldy house, where the mold was

> between the walls, I never had a migraine in Jan, Feb, or March-

> presummibly because it was so cold that the mold went dorment, the

> worse time was when continual rains made the colony grow- I suppose

> it would depend on where the colony is and if it is plumming or

> rainfall supporting it.

>

> -- In , " Branislav " <arealis@> wrote:

> >

> > --- In , " barb1283 " <barb1283@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Steve, I can't imagine that allergy symptoms would be as

serious

> as

> > > symptoms you are having. As for season, have you had a hard

> freeze

> > > yet this year? Dr Rae, Dr from Dallas, says that mold gets

> worse,

> > > not better in the fall. He says things don't improve until

your

> > > area gets a few days of a hard freeze. Maybe all the falling

> leaves

> > > decaying? He also said mold seems to like weather in the

50's.

> Not

> > > sure why that either. Could it be that air is more humid in

the

> > > fall due to still alot of humidity and mold in soil from summer

> and

> > > air cooling off causes a higher humidity, or these

to 'condense'

> in

> > > some way higher before it gets lower? I don't know. We have

> had a

> > > hard freeze here and humidity has dipped and things are feeling

> > > better in my home.

> >

> >

> > Barb,

> >

> > I also noticed that the existing mold contaminations got a lot

> worse

> > when the temperature dropped. Or perhaps it has also something to

> do

> > with higher humidity at the beginning of Fall? don't know.

> >

> > But according to these articles, the toxins we fear the most,

> > trichothecenes - are produced best when the temperature is below

10

> > degrees celsius (that's about 50 F).

> >

> > http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/mycotoxins.html

> >

> > " There were still some problems, notably that some of the pollen

> was

> > from plants not found in Indo-China, and the presence of synthetic

> > chemicals like polyethylene glycol. Another was that

trichothecenes

> > are only manufactured at low temperatures (lower than 10°C (50°F))

> > that are not normally found in Indo-China. Subsequently, defectors

> > from Laos and Vietnam admitted to the use of some forms of

chemical

> > weapons as did some Soviet prisoners of war taken in Afghanistan. "

> >

> >

> > and this:

> >

> > http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/T2.html

> >

> > " Outbreaks of alimentary toxic aleukia (ATA) that killed

thousands

> in

> > an already devastated post-World War II Soviet Union had their

> origins

> > in grains left over winter in the fields under conditions ideal

for

> > trichothecene synthesis. These grains were scant gleanings that

> would

> > have been left for the birds in better days. "

> >

> >

> > So.. maybe most of the mold colony does go dormant and doesn't

> > multiply further, but on the other hand increases the production

of

> > toxins because it feels 'threatened'?

> >

> > Does Dr. Rea think things will get better when the full-blown

> Winter

> > weather comes complete with much colder weather and snow?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Your are right Jeanine but at least new activity

is not coming at you. At least this is the case

for me. Winter is an improvement in my symptoms.

--- who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> --I dont think mold toxins, at least stachy

> mold toxins care what the

> humidity level is.

[Guest guest]

Dry spore might be equally as troublesome for

people allergic to mold. I do not test allergic

to mold by skin or blood tests so perhaps that is

why dry mold spore does not bother me. Of course

if dry spore lands in wet place, like in your

nose, then it can be as troublesome in winter or

spring or summer but there is less mold in air

generally when temperatures are freezing and mold

hybernates when it is dry.

--- who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> -no dought that the way your home is built and

> what types of mold you

> have, your heating system and even weather your

> walls are insulated

> or

[Guest guest]

--what does allergys have to do with mycotoxins??????- In

, bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> Dry spore might be equally as troublesome for

> people allergic to mold. I do not test allergic

> to mold by skin or blood tests so perhaps that is

> why dry mold spore does not bother me. Of course

> if dry spore lands in wet place, like in your

> nose, then it can be as troublesome in winter or

> spring or summer but there is less mold in air

> generally when temperatures are freezing and mold

> hybernates when it is dry.

>

> --- who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

>

> > -no dought that the way your home is built and

> > what types of mold you

> > have, your heating system and even weather your

> > walls are insulated

> > or

>

[Guest guest]

Pre-freeze mold counts here were between 3000 and

5000. After freeze so far mold counts have been

below 1000. However if you are talking about

toxins that is another subject and they aren't

less troublesome in winter but may become

airbourne easier. Allergens in generally do

become airborne easier in very dry weather.

However at least new toxins are not being

produced because mold spore activity is down,

unless there are in a spot where there is still

high humidity and air is warmer than outside.

[Guest guest]

Subject becomes confusing since there are so many

aspects of mold problems. There is subject of

mold spores and mold toxins, and allergies, and

toxic illness and infection, etc, etc. I was

talking primarily of mold spores in relationship

to weather, not toxins. In freezing temperature

mold count goes down. I don't know if weather

has any affect on toxins or not but I assume if

there is less mold, there would be less toxins.

Then again there are two subjects there: inside

mold and outside mold. I'm more referring to

outside affects since freezing weather primarily

affects outside. However outside mold count and

humidity DOES affect inside counts and humidity

so I was saying HERE outside freezing

temperatures have affect of lowering mold counts

and I have less symptoms inside house also. I

have fresh air intake though so as mold spore

activity dies down in my house due to low

humidity conditions, less new toxins are being

produced and fresh air eventually clears alot of

toxins that were in house out since new toxins

are not being produced by mold that is dormant in

the very low humidity condtions. They say 'add

water or humidity' for mold to grow, mold doesn't

grow in low humidity conditions. There still are

old toxins that have contaminated things but not

new ones being produced in low humidity of house.

I do not humidify in winter due to house

problems, so humidity gets down into 20-30's in

the winter. I had professional testing done in

winter, February and they hardly picked up any

mold spores. However summer was a whole

different thing, high numbers so here season and

humidity made a difference. I didn't have toxin

testing. I don't know how to do that.

--- who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> --what does allergys have to do with

> mycotoxins??????-

[Guest guest]

Sue, I guess Carl or Jeff should answer that but

I stopped humidifying due to mold problem. I

think humidity above 35% but below 50% is

considered ideal. Too low a humidity allows

sinuses to dry out and crack and you are more

likely to catch a cold or get flu since germs can

get into your bloodstream when your sinuses are

not moist but are cracked. If your humidifier

does a good job of keeping humidity at level you

pick, those levels should keep mold not growing

and sinuses health. HOWEVER....there always is a

however I think in this subject, it was pointed

out that where humidistat might be 35%, other

areas of house may be higher, also inside walls,

etc, so out of exasperation with whole issue I

just stopped humidifying. Ideally if you could

humidify enough for sinuses to stay moist but not

enough for dust mites and mold to grow, that

would be ideal. A school course in this should

be mandatory, on keeping a house healthy, well a

series of classes. The more I know, the more

confused I get.

--- ssr3351@... wrote:

> Sorry, I'm confused. Should we humidify our air

> inside during

> the winter?

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Barb. We have always(for the 13 yrs. in this house) run a

humidifier with the furnace during the winter months without

any problems. My illness came from my workplace and I am well

at home. I just panic about everything and am scared to death

to do something wrong. Certainly don't want to cause a health

issue here at home. We have never had a moisture problem but always

run a dehumidifier in the basement which is always nice and dry.

Sue

Sue, I guess Carl or Jeff should answer that but

I stopped humidifying due to mold problem. I

think humidity above 35% but below 50% is

considered ideal. Too low a humidity allows

sinuses to dry out and crack and you are more

likely to catch a cold or get flu since germs can

get into your bloodstream when your sinuses are

not moist but are cracked. If your humidifier

[Guest guest]

Thanks, !

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:53:52 EDT, you wrote:

>Sorry, I'm confused. Should we humidify our air inside during

>the winter? We use to run a humidifier during the winter because

>of the static electricity but haven't done it in the past 2 yrs.

>Yes, humidify or No, humidify indoors?

No, don't humidify unless you have some health condition that requires

it.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:35:11 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Pre-freeze mold counts here were between 3000 and

>5000. After freeze so far mold counts have been

>below 1000. However if you are talking about

>toxins that is another subject and they aren't

>less troublesome in winter but may become

>airbourne easier. Allergens in generally do

>become airborne easier in very dry weather.

>However at least new toxins are not being

>produced because mold spore activity is down,

>unless there are in a spot where there is still

>high humidity and air is warmer than outside.

>

>

My experiences coincide with Barb's, In particular last summer when I

left my trailer for a week I set the dehumidifier down to 35% and did

not run the ac. It probably easily got above 110 degrees in my trailer

at 35% humidity. Not very conducive to just about any kind of life

form. When I came back the trailer was much more tolerable than when I

left. My car has never even come close to doing the same thing to me

as my trailer for the same reason, heat. Conditions were not conducive

for mold growth.

Unfortunately in order to achieve these conditions I had to not be in

my trailer. Same thing would apply with cold weather I would think. If

it got down to freezing inside. This would make a huge difference. But

if your running the heat obviously your creating a favorable

environment for mold growth.

My thinking is a lot different than a lot in this group in that I

HAVEN'T been convinced of the lingering mycotoxin connection to

illness, or spore plumes outside for this matter. All cases where I

have been ill have been in connection with active mold colonies IN

STRUCTURES I have lived in.

Never have I been in contact with any of my belongings such as cloths,

bedding, computer, books, luggage etc. all of which should be

considerably contaminated with mycotoxins and spores from my trailer

and felt profoundly ill during extended stays elsewhere with them.

EXCEPT for one of my monitors which had active mold growth on it:

http://home.tampabay.rr.com/rchrist9/Moldy%20Monitor.shtml

Not saying it doesn't happen just that my observations seem to differ

greatly. Also their are a multitude of variables such as the time it

takes to get clear, how much mold I am in contact with in the new

places I stayed at etc.

If I were able to experience a baseline of no exposure for more than a

month and than be exposed to mycotoxin ONLY or spore ONLY contaminated

environments, and no active mold. Maybe I would change my mind. I'm

not saying people with differing opinions are wrong. The jury's still

out for me though.

I guess I have always had to see things for myself before I believe

it. Especially when these things seem to defy logic or common sense.

This is part of the reason I have not taken a lot of cogent advice

about avoidance here in the past. I had to make the painful

connection myself first. The only connection I have made is ACTIVE

mold colonies are very detrimental to my health. NOT residual spores,

NOT residual mycotoxins.

Not saying residual spores or residual mycotoxins alone CAN'T make

one sick, but my money is defiantly that they DON'T in any

significant way at this point.

It just defy's common sense. But than again so does tiny

concentrations of mold and I know this to be detrimental to me because

of my predisposition to it , than take my 76 year old father with no

predisposition who is not phased in the least by something that

knocks my on my butt.

I am not an epidemiologist but I believe most cases of severe mold

sensitivity, cases where people become PERMANTLY disabled are not

consistent in that every time you throw a subject in a mold

contaminated environment the same or similar predictable disastrous

symptoms result. If this were the case common sense would dictate that

this group would have about 500 times more members than it currently

has. (which it might have if you added all the mcs, gws, cfs victims.)

I believe this illness to be due to a breakdown in our immune system

that predisposes us while leaving others unaffected in any meaningful

way. The reason most could care less about the mold issue is their not

affected by it. I believe a lot of factors with our health are

involved in this. Not simply " the mold " Probably mostly due to age,

chemicals, pesticides, sometimes medicines, sometimes diseases, and

mold expousure, and the key thing is a combination of these things

over a lifetime that destroy our immune system in a way that leaves us

affected while others are not. That's probably why most of us are

middle aged.

It's ironic in that I believe the MCS theory to be a failed model in

that tiny trace amounts of chemicals are NOT responsible for our wild

swings. Wild swings that are prevalent in GWS, CFS, MCS, SBS. One

common denominator is mold though (in my opinion). Another common

thread is our age, chemicals, pesticides, the medicine disease

connection AND MOLD. Many people who believe in the MCS model believe

it was due to excessive exposures to chemicals, medications, or

sometimes Limes disease but don't make the connection to mold, or

downplay it's significance to their everyday symptoms. And

specifically to the mold in their OWN residences.

Certain things about mycotoxins bother me, first if they are as toxic

as some imply and have longevity exceeding 1 year or more, how come

they don't build up to the point in nature where every living organism

is destroyed. Why aren't ALL of our bodies and homes hopelessly

contaminated with them? I am not a chemist but I believe just about

all bio toxins as some people call them I don't like the term break

down in nature rather rapidly. If they didn't the results would be

disastrous.

I don't see any reason for mycotoxins to be any different. Granted

indoor environments will greatly reduce the breakdown of toxins.

Take red tide for instance. If those toxins did not break down the

cumulative effect would destroy ecosystems for years if not forever,

not simply months. Contaminated fish should make thousands of people

sick, and contaminate their bodies long after the epidemic fades away,

there's no reliable evidence of this.

Conversely take PCB's and dioxin, chlordane, mercury, arsenic. These

are very dangerous in large part because of their persistence. They

ARE very defiantly in the food chain, all man made compounds or caused

by our activity.

The more I think about it too I am not convinced that cross

contamination (spores) is as big of an issue as many have made of it

on this group. In fact as I might have made of it here in this group

in the past. If the place you are going to has no water damage trace

amounts of spores introduced from a mold damaged building should not

be a problem as long as they don't get an opportunity to grow. With no

water source they can't grow. Of course just about any structure you

go to at some time or another is going to be conducive to spore growth

so I'm not saying shake all of your moldy belongings off in your new

environment. The question begs asking though if mold spores are

everywhere than that means the very type of spores you are trying to

leave behind are already in your new residence so it's kind of futile

all of the impossible decontamination procedures people have talked

about here. Whatever your trying to leave behind is already there.

It's prudent, I'm not saying don't be concerned. But by the same token

don't get mired down in a futile quest. The most prudent thing I think

one could do is to find a place with no ACTIVE mold and make every

effort under the sun to keep it that way.

An observation that supports my thinking is that I brought a lot of my

belongings over to my brothers house (from my original mold

contaminated house)

http://home.tampabay.rr.com/rchrist9/

and cleaned them but by no means were they decontaminated. porous

items, difficult to clean items, My plasma cutter and my mig welder,

my compressor, my roll around tool chest, my air tools, hundreds of

sockets and wrenches, one of my commercial mowers, hedge trimmers, my

mothers canvas paintings. I was so worried about his house three years

after the fact that I stayed there for 5 days to give it a chance to

make me sick. It did not, at least not anywhere on the level of what

my trailer does. Not saying I was cured there, just the difference was

night and day from my trailer. His house is less than ten years old

and never had any significant water issues, they always run the ac,

very well maintained. But it did have very significant cross

contamination from a very very moldy house.

http://home.tampabay.rr.com/rchrist9/

That's why I always harp on the medical establishment. There is no

hard peer reviewed science to back up or refute most of what I have

said here in a meaningful way. And that is no accident.

[Guest guest]

Everyones tolerence, sensitivity-, amount of toxin, spores present,

varies to a great degree-It is worth it for those newly sick and

doing their first move to take the most extreme measures to protect

themselves- many people have made their first move only to find they

must move again- this time without their " stuff " .-I did this myself

because I did not have this support group to guide me- hopefully

people will learn from our experience

-- In , Christ

<antares41_41@...> wrote:

>

> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:35:11 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>

> >Pre-freeze mold counts here were between 3000 and

> >5000. After freeze so far mold counts have been

> >below 1000. However if you are talking about

> >toxins that is another subject and they aren't

> >less troublesome in winter but may become

> >airbourne easier. Allergens in generally do

> >become airborne easier in very dry weather.

> >However at least new toxins are not being

> >produced because mold spore activity is down,

> >unless there are in a spot where there is still

> >high humidity and air is warmer than outside.

> >

> >

> My experiences coincide with Barb's, In particular last summer

when I

> left my trailer for a week I set the dehumidifier down to 35% and

did

> not run the ac. It probably easily got above 110 degrees in my

trailer

> at 35% humidity. Not very conducive to just about any kind of life

> form. When I came back the trailer was much more tolerable than

when I

> left. My car has never even come close to doing the same thing to

me

> as my trailer for the same reason, heat. Conditions were not

conducive

> for mold growth.

>

> Unfortunately in order to achieve these conditions I had to not be

in

> my trailer. Same thing would apply with cold weather I would

think. If

> it got down to freezing inside. This would make a huge difference.

But

> if your running the heat obviously your creating a favorable

> environment for mold growth.

>

> My thinking is a lot different than a lot in this group in that I

> HAVEN'T been convinced of the lingering mycotoxin connection to

> illness, or spore plumes outside for this matter. All cases where

I

> have been ill have been in connection with active mold colonies IN

> STRUCTURES I have lived in.

>

> Never have I been in contact with any of my belongings such as

cloths,

> bedding, computer, books, luggage etc. all of which should be

> considerably contaminated with mycotoxins and spores from my

trailer

> and felt profoundly ill during extended stays elsewhere with them.

> EXCEPT for one of my monitors which had active mold growth on it:

> http://home.tampabay.rr.com/rchrist9/Moldy%20Monitor.shtml

>

> Not saying it doesn't happen just that my observations seem to

differ

> greatly. Also their are a multitude of variables such as the time

it

> takes to get clear, how much mold I am in contact with in the new

> places I stayed at etc.

>

> If I were able to experience a baseline of no exposure for more

than a

> month and than be exposed to mycotoxin ONLY or spore ONLY

contaminated

> environments, and no active mold. Maybe I would change my mind. I'm

> not saying people with differing opinions are wrong. The jury's

still

> out for me though.

>

> I guess I have always had to see things for myself before I

believe

> it. Especially when these things seem to defy logic or common

sense.

> This is part of the reason I have not taken a lot of cogent advice

> about avoidance here in the past. I had to make the painful

> connection myself first. The only connection I have made is ACTIVE

> mold colonies are very detrimental to my health. NOT residual

spores,

> NOT residual mycotoxins.

>

> Not saying residual spores or residual mycotoxins alone CAN'T make

> one sick, but my money is defiantly that they DON'T in any

> significant way at this point.

>

> It just defy's common sense. But than again so does tiny

> concentrations of mold and I know this to be detrimental to me

because

> of my predisposition to it , than take my 76 year old father with

no

> predisposition who is not phased in the least by something that

> knocks my on my butt.

>

> I am not an epidemiologist but I believe most cases of severe mold

> sensitivity, cases where people become PERMANTLY disabled are not

> consistent in that every time you throw a subject in a mold

> contaminated environment the same or similar predictable disastrous

> symptoms result. If this were the case common sense would dictate

that

> this group would have about 500 times more members than it

currently

> has. (which it might have if you added all the mcs, gws, cfs

victims.)

>

> I believe this illness to be due to a breakdown in our immune

system

> that predisposes us while leaving others unaffected in any

meaningful

> way. The reason most could care less about the mold issue is their

not

> affected by it. I believe a lot of factors with our health are

> involved in this. Not simply " the mold " Probably mostly due to age,

> chemicals, pesticides, sometimes medicines, sometimes diseases, and

> mold expousure, and the key thing is a combination of these things

> over a lifetime that destroy our immune system in a way that

leaves us

> affected while others are not. That's probably why most of us are

> middle aged.

>

> It's ironic in that I believe the MCS theory to be a failed model

in

> that tiny trace amounts of chemicals are NOT responsible for our

wild

> swings. Wild swings that are prevalent in GWS, CFS, MCS, SBS. One

> common denominator is mold though (in my opinion). Another common

> thread is our age, chemicals, pesticides, the medicine disease

> connection AND MOLD. Many people who believe in the MCS model

believe

> it was due to excessive exposures to chemicals, medications, or

> sometimes Limes disease but don't make the connection to mold, or

> downplay it's significance to their everyday symptoms. And

> specifically to the mold in their OWN residences.

>

> Certain things about mycotoxins bother me, first if they are as

toxic

> as some imply and have longevity exceeding 1 year or more, how come

> they don't build up to the point in nature where every living

organism

> is destroyed. Why aren't ALL of our bodies and homes hopelessly

> contaminated with them? I am not a chemist but I believe just

about

> all bio toxins as some people call them I don't like the term break

> down in nature rather rapidly. If they didn't the results would be

> disastrous.

> I don't see any reason for mycotoxins to be any different. Granted

> indoor environments will greatly reduce the breakdown of toxins.

> Take red tide for instance. If those toxins did not break down the

> cumulative effect would destroy ecosystems for years if not

forever,

> not simply months. Contaminated fish should make thousands of

people

> sick, and contaminate their bodies long after the epidemic fades

away,

> there's no reliable evidence of this.

>

> Conversely take PCB's and dioxin, chlordane, mercury, arsenic.

These

> are very dangerous in large part because of their persistence. They

> ARE very defiantly in the food chain, all man made compounds or

caused

> by our activity.

>

> The more I think about it too I am not convinced that cross

> contamination (spores) is as big of an issue as many have made of

it

> on this group. In fact as I might have made of it here in this

group

> in the past. If the place you are going to has no water damage

trace

> amounts of spores introduced from a mold damaged building should

not

> be a problem as long as they don't get an opportunity to grow.

With no

> water source they can't grow. Of course just about any structure

you

> go to at some time or another is going to be conducive to spore

growth

> so I'm not saying shake all of your moldy belongings off in your

new

> environment. The question begs asking though if mold spores are

> everywhere than that means the very type of spores you are trying

to

> leave behind are already in your new residence so it's kind of

futile

> all of the impossible decontamination procedures people have talked

> about here. Whatever your trying to leave behind is already there.

> It's prudent, I'm not saying don't be concerned. But by the same

token

> don't get mired down in a futile quest. The most prudent thing I

think

> one could do is to find a place with no ACTIVE mold and make every

> effort under the sun to keep it that way.

>

> An observation that supports my thinking is that I brought a lot

of my

> belongings over to my brothers house (from my original mold

> contaminated house)

> http://home.tampabay.rr.com/rchrist9/

> and cleaned them but by no means were they decontaminated. porous

> items, difficult to clean items, My plasma cutter and my mig

welder,

> my compressor, my roll around tool chest, my air tools, hundreds of

> sockets and wrenches, one of my commercial mowers, hedge

trimmers, my

> mothers canvas paintings. I was so worried about his house three

years

> after the fact that I stayed there for 5 days to give it a chance

to

> make me sick. It did not, at least not anywhere on the level of

what

> my trailer does. Not saying I was cured there, just the difference

was

> night and day from my trailer. His house is less than ten years old

> and never had any significant water issues, they always run the

ac,

> very well maintained. But it did have very significant cross

> contamination from a very very moldy house.

> http://home.tampabay.rr.com/rchrist9/

> That's why I always harp on the medical establishment. There is no

> hard peer reviewed science to back up or refute most of what I

have

> said here in a meaningful way. And that is no accident.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Boy have you got that right.

Janet