Re: Mold Challange 2 - Lori

[Guest guest]

Lori,

Excellent questions! That's what we need more of rather than reaching

easy conclusions on a complex topic.

> Hi, thanks for these explanations. Can you explain more about the

> cladosporium?

Cladosporium is the most common mold outside and inside. The fact

that it is higher than other types isn't important in itself. Other

factors have to be considered. Google Cladosporium and others for

detailed info. Dr Fungus, Aerotec, AMSL and EMLab sites have

excellent information.

> I thought from what I read that levels should always be

> higher indoors than outdoors.

Indoor vs outdoor is the most common comparison but also one of the

most inaccurate ones. For example, there are at least 3 beliefs about

what the comparision should be. One is 10 times higher indoors.

Another is equal. Another is 6-7 times less indoors. Take you pick.

I would say higher indoors than outdoors if it is raining or snowing.

I would say lower indoors if it is dry and windy outdoors.

> Are you saying that the spores from

> outside were washed out and so these higher inside levels are

> meaningless?

How many particles are in the shower stream when you are taking a

shower? Same thing outside when it is raining. So what would you be

comparing the inside counts to? Likewise, as above, if outside is

windy and dusty what are you comparing the inside levels to?

Now, let's get a little more complex just for the fun of it. If you

want to compare inside to outside mold levels and the outside levels

are always changing on an irregular basis you have to take the sample

indoors at the equivalent time outdoors. So you have to know how long

it takes the outside air to get inside. Oh, but what if the house is

under pressure? That would block the outside air from coming in and

the comparision would again be meaningless.

Finally - not really, but I don't want to create more confusion -

remember past postings by Jeff May about how outdoor mold is often

found as single or double spores but indoor mold is usually in large

clusters. That will give you different counts on culture plates

because both 1 single spore and a cluster of 20 spores will grow only

1 colony.

> Is cladosporium one of the dangerous molds?

Cladosporium is usually the most common mold found outdoors and

indoors. We are all exposed to Cladosporium all the time. If it were

one of the dangerous molds then the whole population would probably

be very sick. Exposure to high levels from a source of Cladosporium

growth could be a problem. But others are usually more so. There is

also the opinion of some experts that another common mold,

Alternaria, may play the key role in sensitizing people to other

molds.

> Are there

> any molds that are not dangerous?

EPA and CDC say ANY mold can cause reactions to an individual that is

sensitized to it. (That is not the same as saying " any mold can cause

reactions in everybody). I may be exquisitly reactive to Cladosporium

but not Penicillium. You, on the other hand, may be just the

opposite. Then there are combinations of allergens.

I don't mean to imply that all this complexity means we are all

hallucinating and that our reactions are not real. On the contrary.

But I am saying that out of the 120,000+ mold species (not counting

the macro-fungi) all we ever see are a few hundred. This would be

like figuring out what causes bumps on our arms by sampling for

insects when we need to sample for mosquitos or ticks or laundry

detergent. The state of the art for mold is still incredibly general.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

> Dr Fungus, Aerotec, AMSL and EMLab sites have

> excellent information.

I would be very cautious in recommending Dr. Fungus as a point of

reference regarding toxic mold. He's very biased. Take a look at some

of their statements on the follwing page:

http://www.doctorfungus.org/mycoses/environ/mould_disease.htm#toxins

-----------------------------------------

Thus, while it is clear that S. chartarum produces toxins [2293] and

that at least some strains can cause disease in animals [1035, 1628],

it is simply not at all clear whether it is able to produce these

symptoms in humans [1518].

What lessons can be learned here?

First, it is indeed clear that mycotoxins are real and that they can

produce dramatic symptoms. However, clear linkage of a toxin to a

disease is difficult.

How do I get rid of mycotoxins?

We do not know of any specific recommendations in this regard, nor do

special steps appear necessary. Mycotoxins are simply chemical

compounds released by fungi onto the surface where the fungus is

growing. Cleaning procedures that are able to remove other surface

contaminants would seem very likely to remove any relevant amounts of

mycotoxins. As we state elsewhere, you are done with mould cleanup

when (a) there is no visible mould, ( there are no mould odors, and

© you have fixed the moisture/water problem so that it will not

recur [93]. We are very often asked about cleaning of colonized porous

materials such as clothing. As stated so nicely in the ACOEM's

position statement [80], " Colonized porous materials, e.g., clothing

or upholstery, can be cleaned using appropriate routine methods, e.g.,

washing or dry cleaning clothing, and need not be discarded unless

cleaning fails to restore an acceptable appearance. "

--------------------------------------------------------

The first two statements are simply BS. As far as his third statement

is concerned, while there's no doubt it's also total BS, I feel the

need to make a special comment about it:

I wish it were so easy Dr. Fungus! In reality clothes and other porous

materials are sometimes IMPOSSIBLE to decontaminate from mycotoxins.

[Guest guest]

Branislav,

Thank you for pointing out this information. I should have limited my

positive comments to the characteristics of the various genera and

species of mold.

In defense of the Dr Fungus site, however, at least they reference

every statement they make and they have a lengthy legal disclaimer

you must agree to before you continue in their site. So instead of

their own opinion, they are only going to say what authoritative

sources have said as a way of defending themselves (their legal

version of an immune system!). So the bias will be determined by a

combination of available sources and the the ones they select. I'd

rather have this openness than the opaqueness we find on most sites.

Again, this group includes some sharp people who check and double-

check the information. This is required because you must become your

own expert. Which means you must do it in a way that you find and

understand the available information, how you select what you will

use, with a method that develops trust in your decisions over time.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> > Dr Fungus, Aerotec, AMSL and EMLab sites have

> > excellent information.

>

> I would be very cautious in recommending Dr. Fungus as a point of

> reference regarding toxic mold. He's very biased. Take a look at some

> of their statements on the follwing page:

>

> http://www.doctorfungus.org/mycoses/environ/mould_disease.htm#toxins

>

> -----------------------------------------

> Thus, while it is clear that S. chartarum produces toxins [2293] and

> that at least some strains can cause disease in animals [1035, 1628],

> it is simply not at all clear whether it is able to produce these

> symptoms in humans [1518].

>

>

> What lessons can be learned here?

>

> First, it is indeed clear that mycotoxins are real and that they can

> produce dramatic symptoms. However, clear linkage of a toxin to a

> disease is difficult.

>

>

> How do I get rid of mycotoxins?

>

> We do not know of any specific recommendations in this regard, nor do

> special steps appear necessary. Mycotoxins are simply chemical

> compounds released by fungi onto the surface where the fungus is

> growing. Cleaning procedures that are able to remove other surface

> contaminants would seem very likely to remove any relevant amounts of

> mycotoxins. As we state elsewhere, you are done with mould cleanup

> when (a) there is no visible mould, ( there are no mould odors, and

> © you have fixed the moisture/water problem so that it will not

> recur [93]. We are very often asked about cleaning of colonized porous

> materials such as clothing. As stated so nicely in the ACOEM's

> position statement [80], " Colonized porous materials, e.g., clothing

> or upholstery, can be cleaned using appropriate routine methods, e.g.,

> washing or dry cleaning clothing, and need not be discarded unless

> cleaning fails to restore an acceptable appearance. "

> --------------------------------------------------------

>

> The first two statements are simply BS. As far as his third statement

> is concerned, while there's no doubt it's also total BS, I feel the

> need to make a special comment about it:

>

> I wish it were so easy Dr. Fungus! In reality clothes and other porous

> materials are sometimes IMPOSSIBLE to decontaminate from mycotoxins.

>

>

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> FAIR USE NOTICE:

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