Fat burners that work?

[Guest guest]

I just read Skwigg's comments on her site about her reaction to Phen-

Free and Beta Lean. I want something that will work 1. because I

have five weeks till Jamaica and I'm stuck!! and 2. because I have

absolutely no energy lately (which I think has a lot to do with work

stress - I need Jamaica!!).

I have been taking a thermogenic from a company called Synergistic

Nutrition (my dh knows one of the owners of this company who

recommended it). It doesn't work. But I can only tolerate about 2-

3/day of the 6 max dose/day. I've not taken it consistently really

either. It makes me feel jittery but it doesn't last long - but I

don't like it.

I'd love to find something to take the next 4-5 weeks that'll help

me shed some of the body fat I've been fighting for so long and give

me a little much-needed energy.

Can anyone suggest something that works or just convince me to not

bother with these crazy things?? I'm afraid I'm just giving in to

my desperation.

[Guest guest]

I'm sure you've heard this one a zillion times, but nutrition = 80% of

your results, supplements = less than 2%. So, you'll get a much, much

more dramatic result from adjusting your food than you will by taking

any particular pill. That goes for both fat loss and energy. It's all

about your diet.

If you want some kind of supplement to increase your energy, I highly

recommend straight-up caffeine in the form of coffee, iced tea, or

diet soda. It will give you a lift but it won't stop your heart or

make you hallucinate. One real problem with taking thermogenic pills

is that at first they give you more energy, then you develop a

tolerance, then you need to increase the dose just to feel normal,

then you start to feel a major debilitating energy crash when you

don't take them. So, you get to choose between taking them and feeling

sort of moderately lousy, or not taking them and feeling like you've

been hit by a truck.

I've been on an iced tea kick lately. It's a good summery drink and

I'm VERY alert. :-) You can either buy a flavored diet tea mix, drink

it unsweetened, or sweeten it with splenda or stevia. I'm not much of

a coffee drinker, but that would work well too. Bill

recommends black coffee before cardio.

Now, maybe somebody else has a miracle pill that they've had good

results with, but you can't really go wrong with caffeine, lean

protein, loads of fruits and vegetables, and lots of water.

Ooh! And maybe some watermelon. :-)

> I just read Skwigg's comments on her site about her reaction to Phen-

> Free and Beta Lean. I want something that will work 1. because I

> have five weeks till Jamaica and I'm stuck!! and 2. because I have

> absolutely no energy lately (which I think has a lot to do with work

> stress - I need Jamaica!!).

>

> I have been taking a thermogenic from a company called Synergistic

> Nutrition (my dh knows one of the owners of this company who

> recommended it). It doesn't work. But I can only tolerate about 2-

> 3/day of the 6 max dose/day. I've not taken it consistently really

> either. It makes me feel jittery but it doesn't last long - but I

> don't like it.

>

> I'd love to find something to take the next 4-5 weeks that'll help

> me shed some of the body fat I've been fighting for so long and give

> me a little much-needed energy.

>

> Can anyone suggest something that works or just convince me to not

> bother with these crazy things?? I'm afraid I'm just giving in to

> my desperation.

[Guest guest]

> I'm sure you've heard this one a zillion times, but

> nutrition = 80% of your results, supplements = less than 2%.

> So, you'll get a much, much more dramatic result from

> adjusting your food than you will by taking any particular

> pill. That goes for both fat loss and energy. It's all

> about your diet.

I cant agree with you more! Altho we have had our moments for and

against thermogenics, the plain fact is that NOTHING 'works' better

for you (or against you for that matter) than what you are eating on

a daily basis. And it kind of pisses me off that the original poster

wants something that 'works' - like wtf does THAT mean? Really,

think about it - what 'works' - like give me somesome antidote to my

fatcells with some magic in a bottle. Poof! your'e thin! Now go to

Jamaica and thankgawd you found something that 'works' to make

yourself bikini worthy! Get your head on straight! There is NOTHING

that 'works' - YOU work IT! <<snapsnap!>> get with it!

That said, used CORRECTLY, thermogenics(in addition to correct

eating) CAN have its place (for some ppl) to help boost energy, or

suppress appetite. You have to do your homework tho and understand

hows and whys of the ingredients - from this knowledge you can

choose something that may COMPLIMENT your already solid as a rock

eating/exercising program, and not just from asking on a board

what 'works' or taking what your BF/spouse/granny/neighbor/bum on

the street suggested. As in anything one size does not fit all or

most. ;-)

> If you want some kind of supplement to increase your energy,

> I highly recommend straight-up caffeine in the form of coffee,

> iced tea, or diet soda. It will give you a lift but it won't

> stop your heart or make you hallucinate. One real problem with

> taking thermogenic pills is that at first they give you more

> energy, then you develop a tolerance, then you need to increase

> the dose just to feel normal, then you start to feel a major

> debilitating energy crash when you don't take them. So, you

> get to choose between taking them and feeling sort of moderately

> lousy, or not taking them and feeling like you've

> been hit by a truck.

I disagree with this bit because your description of feeling lousy

etc (face it, its still an addiction) also comes when I dont have

any caffeine - try it sometime I bet you will crash bigtime! (what a

blogging experience!) You just dont (or maybe you do lol!)realize

how addicted you are ;-)

If I dont have at least one cup of coffee in the morning I dont

feel 'right' and if I go longer I get a crushing headache. Yet it

doesnt affect me as an energy booster anymore either - on my days

off I can have a couple of big mugs of coffee and yawn! a few hours

later go back to bed for a nap! LoL! (such is the weekend!)

Strangley tho, caffeine in other forms can rev me up - sometimes

when I dont want it to - like the diet iced tea you mentioned and

even diet pop (cant blame the sugar cause there is none). I have

spent many a night staring at the ceiling at 2am wondering why I

cant sleep and then think oh yeah it was that iced tea/diet soda I

swilled down after dinner on the patio! Hehe tired but wired-not

fun!

joni

--------------------------------------

*yeah for the weekend! I'm off to Carson City/Reno (desert heat of

100+ thank goodness for airconditioning!)

[Guest guest]

You're right. I typed that and chuckled at the irony. If you take a

lot of it, eventually you'll need caffeine to feel normal and you'll

crash without it. :-) BUT it's 10 times worse with a strong

thermogenic formula. I've done both. If you miss your caffeine, you

get sleepy and annoyed. If you miss your six doses of Turbo Thermo

Burn, it's like you've been shot in the ass with a tranquilizer dart.

You literally can't function. Or I couldn't anyway. I was crawling

around on the floor confused and in pain, probably much like one of

those poor bears who gets darted by animal control and falls 30 feet

from a tree.

What the? Where am I? Oooooh, my head.... LOL

On 6/24/06, jgrrl2 <no_reply > wrote:

>

>

> I disagree with this bit because your description of feeling lousy

> etc (face it, its still an addiction) also comes when I dont have

> any caffeine - try it sometime I bet you will crash bigtime! (what a

> blogging experience!) You just dont (or maybe you do lol!)realize

> how addicted you are ;-)

> If I dont have at least one cup of coffee in the morning I dont

> feel 'right' and if I go longer I get a crushing headache. Yet it

> doesnt affect me as an energy booster anymore either - on my days

> off I can have a couple of big mugs of coffee and yawn! a few hours

> later go back to bed for a nap! LoL! (such is the weekend!)

> Strangley tho, caffeine in other forms can rev me up - sometimes

> when I dont want it to - like the diet iced tea you mentioned and

> even diet pop (cant blame the sugar cause there is none). I have

> spent many a night staring at the ceiling at 2am wondering why I

> cant sleep and then think oh yeah it was that iced tea/diet soda I

> swilled down after dinner on the patio! Hehe tired but wired-not

> fun!

>

>

> joni

[Guest guest]

Thanks for trying to be helpful . I do really get a kick out

of your site - and lots of info, I can only imagine how much effort

you've put into that site...probably late at night hyped up on Mt

Dew, LOL!

I've been feeling so lousy lately and workouts suffer just because I

give up. There may be something more going on but, as silly as it

sounds, I hadn't made the connection to my recent attempts to curb

my Diet Coke habit...Duh!

The artificial sweeteners scare me and there are other concerns I

have with so much soda - and I was drinking a LOT! It affects my

sweet tooth, too, I think - it's out of control when I've gone a day

or two without my diet coke. Maybe I need to go back to that Diet

Coke with Splenda but I just didn't like it all that much. I'd

rather get off the sodas altogether but maybe I'm just not up to

that right now. Maybe after my busy/stressful season at work I'll

cut back but I shouldn't worry about it right now.

> >

> >

> > I disagree with this bit because your description of feeling

lousy

> > etc (face it, its still an addiction) also comes when I dont have

> > any caffeine - try it sometime I bet you will crash bigtime!

(what a

> > blogging experience!) You just dont (or maybe you do lol!)realize

> > how addicted you are ;-)

> > If I dont have at least one cup of coffee in the morning I dont

> > feel 'right' and if I go longer I get a crushing headache. Yet it

> > doesnt affect me as an energy booster anymore either - on my days

> > off I can have a couple of big mugs of coffee and yawn! a few

hours

> > later go back to bed for a nap! LoL! (such is the weekend!)

> > Strangley tho, caffeine in other forms can rev me up - sometimes

> > when I dont want it to - like the diet iced tea you mentioned and

> > even diet pop (cant blame the sugar cause there is none). I have

> > spent many a night staring at the ceiling at 2am wondering why I

> > cant sleep and then think oh yeah it was that iced tea/diet soda

I

> > swilled down after dinner on the patio! Hehe tired but wired-not

> > fun!

> >

> >

> > joni

>

[Guest guest]

Yikes, thanks for the " advice "

They " have their place " so bite my head off for asking if there's

anything out there that anyone thinks does half what it says it

does - especially when pretty much all the body builders' and

competitors' sites talk about what they've used and even peddle (who

are you by the way?). You're welcome to your soap box, just don't

set it up on my corner. You have no clue who you're even talking to.

And don't lecture me about what " works " you have no idea how

much WORK I've done and you're just plain condescending and rude in

your ridiculous post. If this gets me banned or something think of

the great advice like this I'll be missing.

Gotta love the internet - makes everyone so smart.

>

> I cant agree with you more! Altho we have had our moments for and

> against thermogenics, the plain fact is that NOTHING 'works'

better

> for you (or against you for that matter) than what you are eating

on

> a daily basis. And it kind of pisses me off that the original

poster

> wants something that 'works' - like wtf does THAT mean? Really,

> think about it - what 'works' - like give me somesome antidote to

my

> fatcells with some magic in a bottle. Poof! your'e thin! Now go to

> Jamaica and thankgawd you found something that 'works' to make

> yourself bikini worthy! Get your head on straight! There is

NOTHING

> that 'works' - YOU work IT! <<snapsnap!>> get with it!

> That said, used CORRECTLY, thermogenics(in addition to correct

> eating) CAN have its place ...>

> joni

> --------------------------------------

> *yeah for the weekend! I'm off to Carson City/Reno (desert heat of

> 100+ thank goodness for airconditioning!)

>

[Guest guest]

I have used Lipo-6, which I really liked, and really suppressed my appetite.

HydroxyCut works well too, and Xyience Xelerate works well as too. You can do

some research on www.bodybuilding.com

Re: Fat burners that work?

Yikes, thanks for the " advice "

They " have their place " so bite my head off for asking if there's

anything out there that anyone thinks does half what it says it

does. And don't lecture me about what " works " you have no idea how

much WORK I've done and you're just plain condescending and rude in

your ridiculous post. If this gets me banned or something think of

the great advice like this I'll be missing.

Gotta love the internet - makes everyone so smart.

> > I'm sure you've heard this one a zillion times, but

> > nutrition = 80% of your results, supplements = less than 2%.

> > So, you'll get a much, much more dramatic result from

> > adjusting your food than you will by taking any particular

> > pill. That goes for both fat loss and energy. It's all

> > about your diet.

>

> I cant agree with you more! Altho we have had our moments for and

> against thermogenics, the plain fact is that NOTHING 'works'

better

> for you (or against you for that matter) than what you are eating

on

> a daily basis. And it kind of pisses me off that the original

poster

> wants something that 'works' - like wtf does THAT mean? Really,

> think about it - what 'works' - like give me somesome antidote to

my

> fatcells with some magic in a bottle. Poof! your'e thin! Now go to

> Jamaica and thankgawd you found something that 'works' to make

> yourself bikini worthy! Get your head on straight! There is

NOTHING

> that 'works' - YOU work IT! <<snapsnap!>> get with it!

> That said, used CORRECTLY, thermogenics(in addition to correct

> eating) CAN have its place (for some ppl) to help boost energy, or

> suppress appetite. You have to do your homework tho and understand

> hows and whys of the ingredients - from this knowledge you can

> choose something that may COMPLIMENT your already solid as a rock

> eating/exercising program, and not just from asking on a board

> what 'works' or taking what your BF/spouse/granny/neighbor/bum on

> the street suggested. As in anything one size does not fit all or

> most. ;-)

>

> > If you want some kind of supplement to increase your energy,

> > I highly recommend straight-up caffeine in the form of coffee,

> > iced tea, or diet soda. It will give you a lift but it won't

> > stop your heart or make you hallucinate. One real problem with

> > taking thermogenic pills is that at first they give you more

> > energy, then you develop a tolerance, then you need to increase

> > the dose just to feel normal, then you start to feel a major

> > debilitating energy crash when you don't take them. So, you

> > get to choose between taking them and feeling sort of moderately

> > lousy, or not taking them and feeling like you've

> > been hit by a truck.

>

>

> I disagree with this bit because your description of feeling lousy

> etc (face it, its still an addiction) also comes when I dont have

> any caffeine - try it sometime I bet you will crash bigtime! (what

a

> blogging experience!) You just dont (or maybe you do lol!)realize

> how addicted you are ;-)

> If I dont have at least one cup of coffee in the morning I dont

> feel 'right' and if I go longer I get a crushing headache. Yet it

> doesnt affect me as an energy booster anymore either - on my days

> off I can have a couple of big mugs of coffee and yawn! a few

hours

> later go back to bed for a nap! LoL! (such is the weekend!)

> Strangley tho, caffeine in other forms can rev me up - sometimes

> when I dont want it to - like the diet iced tea you mentioned and

> even diet pop (cant blame the sugar cause there is none). I have

> spent many a night staring at the ceiling at 2am wondering why I

> cant sleep and then think oh yeah it was that iced tea/diet soda I

> swilled down after dinner on the patio! Hehe tired but wired-not

> fun!

>

>

> joni

> --------------------------------------

> *yeah for the weekend! I'm off to Carson City/Reno (desert heat of

> 100+ thank goodness for airconditioning!)

>

-->

[Guest guest]

Im not about to set up a soap box in ur corner and tell you what you

should or should not do. but i will let you know what worked for me.

Honestly I can relate to what you express in feeling no energy with the

working out and nutritional aspect. one supplement that I used is

called diet fuel made by twinlab. it has a little caffine in it but its

mostly made of an herbal blend. the main reason I used it is to give me

that extra kick to be able to handle my school, work and workout load.

Hope this helps. you can email me privatly if you want to talk about

supplement use further. take care

[Guest guest]

> and you're just plain condescending and rude in

> your ridiculous post.

Sorry you took it that way. I dont think that when someone expresses

thier opinion (one you may not agree with)that its 'setting up a

soapbox in your corner'. This *is* the internet(you have no corner)

where maybe the smile behind the post sometimes gets lost, but get

used to it! You may not always get an answer you want to hear, but

dont take things so personally geesh! :-0

As knows, I'm often peevish about certain topics (LOL! to say

the least!)but after posting on this board for well over five years, I

rant about the same topics over and over because people ask the same

questions over and over - I even used to save previous posts so I

wouldnt have to reformulate my answers again! Altho not a PC person,

my heart is in the right place or I wouldnt be hanging out here for so

long. As to my previous post, its just that MANY people think (not

necessarily YOU, but your OP didnt separate you from this line of

thinking)that they NEED TO supplement with thermogenics to make

BFL 'work' for them. My point previously was to ask yourself (and

others to do as well) why you/they would feel the need and if

thermogenics were really the answer. Tired? Weightloss not happening?

Critique everything from your sleep habits to what you are eating (the

solid basics of your program)before entertaining the addition of a

thermogenic to the mix. So shoot me for being real about the topic!

My suggestion at the end was to do your homework! Look up ingredients,

learn what they do or wont do because there is ALOT of BS crap stuff

out there these days trying to make a buck off you! Sure every

bodyguilding site promotes the heck out of them as its like a billion

dollar money maker so it goes that say 99.9% want that magic bullet

right now to melt the fat off them and 1% who use them responsibly and

knows their limitations.

Not to give you a primer in Thermogenics 101, but if you go to a site

line Netrition you'll see that thermogenics are separated into

different groups because of their ingredients and marketing hype:

http://www23.netrition.com/fatloss.html

NOTHING you can take 'burns fat' off your body. Remember that. But if

you want energy, most have lots of caffeine (listed as such or addtl

green tea, yerba mate and guarana) and if you want an appetite

suppressant look for citrus arantium/synephrine/hoodia gordonii as a

listed ingredient. Beyond these basic ingredients everything else is

alot of hooey/hype/lies/marketing ploy to part your money from your

wallet.

joni

-------------------------------------------------

*Remember, I am offering you the truth, nothing more* ~ Morpheus in

The Matrix ;-)

[Guest guest]

I just thought I'd chime in and put my 2cents worth in here. I was

seriously addicted to finding a " fat burner " , before BFL. I'd take

them-not exercise and not eat right- and swear that they

didn't " work " , that they were trash. So I'd move on to another one

that I'd hear/read about, same thing would happen. Then BFL happened

to me. Best thing I'd ever found in my life!! But I still struggled

with the " fat burner " addiction. Let me give you a list that are

sitting on top of my fridge right now---half-empty (or half-full

however you wanna look at them):

1)Xyience XFB

2)XenadrineFX

3)Thermo Burst ---which taste NASTY!!-and it's a pill!

4)Tri- Methy Lean--that was the last one I bought-which has Ma Huang

in it......very smart move here!!

5) Thermo Dynamx-

6)Carb Dynamx

7)Hydroxycut

8)Farenheit

9)Hot Rox

If I forgot to take one of these before I went to work, I'd make an

excuse to leave work to go home and take them. Crazy!! I never

finished an entire bottle because I would stop feeling the effects of

them, and thought they weren't working. I guess if I'm not jittery

and speeding around, I don't think it's working. I'm kinda wierd like

that. I like that spastic feeling LOL! Since getting sick back in

November (prior to my hysterectomy in May), I've not taken any of

them. And to be honest I don't have the HIGHS and lows that I would

feel when I took them.

I'll get the 6 week post op release from my doctor tomorrow to resume

my exercise program again, and I'm doing it " fat burner " free! I also

had talked to my doctor about these thermogenics before, and he said

he did not like them, because they raise your blood pressure...ok, I

knew that, but did it anyway.

Again, this is just my experience. Did I see more results with these

products? I don't think so. I was putting in the work, and eating

right...that's what got me my results. If anything, these products

hinder you. They make you not want to eat. And you are supposed to

eat 5-6 times a day. Resistance training and proper diet are FAT

BURNERS in my opinion

Crystal

> > and you're just plain condescending and rude in

> > your ridiculous post.

>

> Sorry you took it that way. I dont think that when someone

expresses

> thier opinion (one you may not agree with)that its 'setting up a

> soapbox in your corner'. This *is* the internet(you have no corner)

> where maybe the smile behind the post sometimes gets lost, but get

> used to it! You may not always get an answer you want to hear, but

> dont take things so personally geesh! :-0

> As knows, I'm often peevish about certain topics (LOL! to say

> the least!)but after posting on this board for well over five

years, I

> rant about the same topics over and over because people ask the

same

> questions over and over - I even used to save previous posts so I

> wouldnt have to reformulate my answers again! Altho not a PC

person,

> my heart is in the right place or I wouldnt be hanging out here for

so

> long. As to my previous post, its just that MANY people think (not

> necessarily YOU, but your OP didnt separate you from this line of

> thinking)that they NEED TO supplement with thermogenics to make

> BFL 'work' for them. My point previously was to ask yourself (and

> others to do as well) why you/they would feel the need and if

> thermogenics were really the answer. Tired? Weightloss not

happening?

> Critique everything from your sleep habits to what you are eating

(the

> solid basics of your program)before entertaining the addition of a

> thermogenic to the mix. So shoot me for being real about the topic!

> My suggestion at the end was to do your homework! Look up

ingredients,

> learn what they do or wont do because there is ALOT of BS crap

stuff

> out there these days trying to make a buck off you! Sure every

> bodyguilding site promotes the heck out of them as its like a

billion

> dollar money maker so it goes that say 99.9% want that magic bullet

> right now to melt the fat off them and 1% who use them responsibly

and

> knows their limitations.

> Not to give you a primer in Thermogenics 101, but if you go to a

site

> line Netrition you'll see that thermogenics are separated into

> different groups because of their ingredients and marketing hype:

> http://www23.netrition.com/fatloss.html

> NOTHING you can take 'burns fat' off your body. Remember that. But

if

> you want energy, most have lots of caffeine (listed as such or

addtl

> green tea, yerba mate and guarana) and if you want an appetite

> suppressant look for citrus arantium/synephrine/hoodia gordonii as

a

> listed ingredient. Beyond these basic ingredients everything else

is

> alot of hooey/hype/lies/marketing ploy to part your money from your

> wallet.

>

>

>

> joni

>

> -------------------------------------------------

> *Remember, I am offering you the truth, nothing more* ~ Morpheus in

> The Matrix ;-)

>

[Guest guest]

, it's Joni. Look at her posts, she does that all the time.

There used to be a little disclaimer at the end about being sleep

deprived and hungry... cracks me up.

She's not biting off your head, she's just a passionate poster and

feels strongly about people who try to use fat burners instead of

pushing to the 10's on the program.

I posted much earlier about my actual experience and the ones I've

tried. I use them to get me back on track and maybe help thru the

lazy days of summer when all I want to do is sit in the pool with a

glass of wine.

Take care, good luck with your quest! Your ultimate revenge will be

when you post that you've finished your challenge, lost X amount of

pounds and so many % of bodyfat.

Have a fantastic challenge! Jami

> >

> > I cant agree with you more! Altho we have had our moments for

and

> > against thermogenics, the plain fact is that NOTHING 'works'

> better

> > for you (or against you for that matter) than what you are

eating

> on

> > a daily basis. And it kind of pisses me off that the original

> poster

> > wants something that 'works' - like wtf does THAT mean? Really,

> > think about it - what 'works' - like give me somesome antidote

to

> my

> > fatcells with some magic in a bottle. Poof! your'e thin! Now go

to

> > Jamaica and thankgawd you found something that 'works' to make

> > yourself bikini worthy! Get your head on straight! There is

> NOTHING

> > that 'works' - YOU work IT! <<snapsnap!>> get with it!

> > That said, used CORRECTLY, thermogenics(in addition to correct

> > eating) CAN have its place ...>

> > joni

> > --------------------------------------

> > *yeah for the weekend! I'm off to Carson City/Reno (desert heat

of

> > 100+ thank goodness for airconditioning!)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, that's where I'm at. Trying to get over a hump. More than

anything, the lack of energy lately is frustrating - except I'm too

tired to really be frustrated. I've (literally) worked my bootie

off the last few years (first on WW, then on BFL since about thist

time last year). No one's more convinced than I am that it

absolutely works! I started out following everything to the letter

except never bothered with the recommended supplements. That's

gotten me so close to where I want to be I've often wondered if I

was just missing that one little edge. There are a couple things

I've read good things about (and two in particular that were also

mentioned in replies to my original message) - maybe I'll try

something out. I don't know. I just want to go to Jamaica, my

tenth anniversary trip we've talked about for several years, and not

be thinking " I'm not sure if I should be wearing this bathing suit " -

and I want to walk around without sucking it in, LOL!! We'll see.

Thanks,

> > >

> > > I cant agree with you more! Altho we have had our moments for

> and

> > > against thermogenics, the plain fact is that NOTHING 'works'

> > better

> > > for you (or against you for that matter) than what you are

> eating

> > on

> > > a daily basis. And it kind of pisses me off that the original

> > poster

> > > wants something that 'works' - like wtf does THAT mean?

Really,

> > > think about it - what 'works' - like give me somesome antidote

> to

> > my

> > > fatcells with some magic in a bottle. Poof! your'e thin! Now

go

> to

> > > Jamaica and thankgawd you found something that 'works' to make

> > > yourself bikini worthy! Get your head on straight! There is

> > NOTHING

> > > that 'works' - YOU work IT! <<snapsnap!>> get with it!

> > > That said, used CORRECTLY, thermogenics(in addition to correct

> > > eating) CAN have its place ...>

> > > joni

> > > --------------------------------------

> > > *yeah for the weekend! I'm off to Carson City/Reno (desert

heat

> of

> > > 100+ thank goodness for airconditioning!)

> > >

> >

>