Re: Hypochlorite and trichothecenes

[Guest guest]

" Brad " <arealis@...> wrote:

> Does anyone have any idea what I might try in order to deactivate this

> toxin?

>

>

> I can't be 100% sure it's mycotoxin, but what else can it be? Please

> let's not get into semantic details... I really need help, not

> nitpicking about terms.

>

Brad, I'm not ignoring your backchannel questions.

My other computer is in the shop, and I don't have your address on this

one.

The possessions I had which somehow developed permanent toxic

potential had to be abandoned, but fortunately, these were few.

I had to develope a " safe zone " and test virtually everything that is

brought in, before I could really start to damp down my reactivity.

As long as I was in an area of continued exposure, that is, being

plumed from an outside source - no amount of concentrating on

individual items was sufficient to alter the progressive course of my

reactivity.

Your contaminated possessions apparently do not have " objective

toxicity " in that they fail to affect others - such as your relatives

or the guy with the briefcase. So even though these toxins you've

located are extremely durable and can cross contaminate other items, I

believe that your reactivity is so extreme that we are talking about

transfer of a few scant molecules, which is triggering an inflammatory

self-perpetuating release of cytokines which is not being countered by

an appropriate release of anti inflammatory cytokines.

No anti-inflammatory cytokines are released because the continued

exposure is still sufficient to signal the necessity for an immune

upregulation. Theoretically, in the lack of a proper damping of immune

response - a single triggering molecule could set the entire chain of

events in motion. So your description is entirely reasonable and has a

logical explanation that can even be consistent with conventional mold

toxins, but, as far as I know, this occurs only when the immune system

is so continually upregulated that normal mechanisms to " stage " over-

expression of cytokines is overwhelmed and semi-nonexistent.

I managed to catch my progression at a level in which a tent in the

desert was pristine enough to signal a " stop " and give me the break I

needed.

It sounds like you probably require both an extremely pristine

environment AND Actos to shut down the response and give your immune

system a chance to repair the damage.

I never had much success with bleach. Leaving things out in the sun

seemed to work better for me.

Have you been in contact with Dr Shoemakers office?

-

[Guest guest]

> Brad, I'm not ignoring your backchannel questions.

> My other computer is in the shop, and I don't have your address on

>this one.

No problem . Send me the reply when you get the computer.

> The possessions I had which somehow developed permanent toxic

> potential had to be abandoned, but fortunately, these were few.

> I had to develope a " safe zone " and test virtually everything that is

> brought in, before I could really start to damp down my reactivity.

> As long as I was in an area of continued exposure, that is, being

> plumed from an outside source - no amount of concentrating on

> individual items was sufficient to alter the progressive course of my

> reactivity.

> Your contaminated possessions apparently do not have " objective

> toxicity " in that they fail to affect others - such as your relatives

> or the guy with the briefcase. So even though these toxins you've

> located are extremely durable and can cross contaminate other items, I

> believe that your reactivity is so extreme that we are talking about

> transfer of a few scant molecules, which is triggering an inflammatory

> self-perpetuating release of cytokines which is not being countered by

> an appropriate release of anti inflammatory cytokines.

> No anti-inflammatory cytokines are released because the continued

> exposure is still sufficient to signal the necessity for an immune

> upregulation. Theoretically, in the lack of a proper damping of immune

> response - a single triggering molecule could set the entire chain of

> events in motion. So your description is entirely reasonable and has a

> logical explanation that can even be consistent with conventional mold

> toxins, but, as far as I know, this occurs only when the immune system

> is so continually upregulated that normal mechanisms to " stage " over-

> expression of cytokines is overwhelmed and semi-nonexistent.

> I managed to catch my progression at a level in which a tent in the

> desert was pristine enough to signal a " stop " and give me the break I

> needed.

> It sounds like you probably require both an extremely pristine

> environment AND Actos to shut down the response and give your immune

> system a chance to repair the damage.

>

> I never had much success with bleach. Leaving things out in the sun

> seemed to work better for me.

> Have you been in contact with Dr Shoemakers office?

> -

Obviously we have very different situations. It seems that in your

area (and perhaps in most areas in the USA) you are continuously faced

with moderate to low levels of mold and mycotoxins. It seems that they

are almost everywhere - buildings, streets, restaurants etc.

In that atmosphere of continuous exposure to a relatively low level of

mycotoxins, the human immune system gets overloaded in time and is

unable to distinguish between what is clean and what is not. In that

case your theory does apply. One has to leave the area to gain the

ability to distinguish between contaminated and non-contaminated things.

On the other hand, I am dealing with the situation where most of my

surroundings are clean. But, occasionally I get slammed with a

powerful dose of mold or mycotoxins or mixtures thereof. In such a

case not everything in my house gets contaminated, nor is my immune

system overloaded. For exmple, at this moment I react only to several

contaminated objets that are now on the terrace. My house is already

the pristine place you are talking about. I have done VCS test and

passed it - tested negative - that means my immuns system is NOT

overloaded at the moment.

Also have in mind that the same mold - e.g. fusarium - produces

completely different mycotoxins in different geographical locations.

Recently I read that a certain species of Fusarium in Finland does not

produce trichothecenes at all, but it does produce some other toxins.

So we have very different situations. I would really love that you are

right. It would be SO MUCH easier for me to leave this house for some

time, go to a pristine place, and when I get back find out that the

items that used to cause me mold reactions are now somehow magically

decontaminated. But unfortunately it's not so.

I went to my father's place for a few days. He lives in another flat

altogether, in which nothing is contaminated. When I came back to my

flat nothing caused me any mold reactions except for these objects

that carry the primary contamination which are now on the terrace.

The contamination on these objects is unbeliveably durable. I guess

the mycotoxins were absorbed into plastic, and that's why they are so

hard to remove.

As for the man with the suitcase and why he seemed not to be affected

- why is that given as an argument in this story at all? As Dr.

Shoemaker rightly said, many people can literally swim in mycotoxins

and not be affected at all. I suppose the man with the suitcase might

have been affected while he was at the holiday resort, for which I

suspect was very moldy. But, as soon as he left that place, his

organism expelled the toxins and he recovered. He probably couldn't

even detect the mycotoxins and spores he carried on his clothes and

suitcase. It's nothing new really; my father is at least 1000 times

more resistant to mycotoxins than I am. I'll tell a little interesting

story in the next post, which might shed some light to the nature of

my case.

I think it is necessary that I mail you several samples of the

contamination I'm dealing with. It seems there's absolutely no way

you'll belive me unless you experience this for yourself. I understand

that it's hard to accept there are so strong contaminations that are

extremely hard to remove even after such brief exposures as a man

passing by you, and that it is more pleasant to live in the hope that

it was simply someone's immune system not being able to cope with too

many small exposures, but ... it's not so.

As for Dr. Shoemaker, I sent him an email to

info@... on August 2nd, but he hasn't replied yet.

I will try resending the email in one week's time if he doesn't

respond by that time.

[Guest guest]

" Branislav " <arealis@...> wrote:

> The contamination on these objects is unbeliveably durable. I guess

the mycotoxins were absorbed into plastic, and that's why they are

so hard to remove.

>

> As for the man with the suitcase and why he seemed not to be

affected - why is that given as an argument in this story at all? As

Dr. Shoemaker rightly said, many people can literally swim in

mycotoxins and not be affected at all.

I believe you. That was the point of saying that in the lack of

anti-inflammatory cytokine response, a single triggering molecule can

start a response that isn't held in check.

The point about the guy with the suitcase is that he didn't

apparently leave a trail of people lying on the ground with rashes

and difficulty breathing while holding their heads in pain.

So I'm assuming that the toxins, while devastating to you, were

not " objectively toxic " to others.

I have a number of stories from people who were slamdunked by a

single exposure that was so powerful that the toxins appeared to have

the capacity to affect anyone and everyone instantly.

But even those ferocious toxins died down after six weeks.

If the toxins from " briefcase guy " had demonstrable effects on

others, it would be fairly safe to conclude that they were massively

potent, but without that evidence, it still leaves the door open to

speculation that they may be of normal toxicity, but that these

molecules lock into your toll receptors in a particularly individual

way. So it would be YOUR level on " The Power Curve " of exposure that

dictates their effect.

That's what makes me keep coming back to assigning a relative

toxicity which is suggested by your response balanced against the

presumed lack of response in others.

The difference has to be made up in " individual susceptibility " .

If the long-chain polystyrene " backbone " of CSM has a particular

affinity to adsorb mycotoxins by its electron charge, why wouldn't

similarly constituted plastics of electrostatic potential also have a

peculiar binding affinity that might make an otherwise normal

contamination excessively " durable " ?

That's why I focused on the plastic laminate as being a

possible " myco-magnet " . Speculation, of course, but if there is an

effect to be explained, we have to seek out the possibilities.

I do have a few areas that have become contaminated in a " durable "

way, but haven't been able to witness a single exposure that can do

it. At least not yet.

I just got blasted night before last outside of Spanish Springs.

I woke up at three AM with the usual sensations and can scarcely

express how terrific it is to be able to just start up my RV and

drive out of the area. I went out towards Pyramid Lake and parked in

the sagebrush - and the relief was immediate after I got out my

backup bedding.

Not quite like some plumes in Santa Cruz where momentary exposure

took four days to die down - even though I left just as quickly.

If those plumes had possessed the capacity to create endless torment

from a single " hit " , that would certainly " complexificate " things

enormously and I would have to change my entire strategy.

I certainly couldn't afford to drive my RV into such a place even for

an instant.

So far, because my RV has always died down within a few days at

most, that would appear to meant that I am either not at your level

of response, or that, just as you say - the toxins you are

identifying have longevity far beyond the ones I am encountering.

Dr Shoemaker is too busy to respond to Emails. You must contact his

office and have a new patient packet sent to you.

And there is a peculiarity to the VCS in that people who have been

through cycles of inflammatory response and are in ACTH " correction "

can have a negative VCS - but still have a hyper C4a.

We know from your description that despite the neg. VCS, you are

certainly hyper C4.

-