Re: Re: Positive Prevention

[Guest guest]

Where in my statement is there a condemnation? There isn't. People that don't use condoms probably won't take a pill every day consistently either. People that become infected will need to be cared for and treated.No one can MAKE anyone do anything, of course. People will always take risks--the person facing a new infection is the one who has to deal with his emotional responses to becoming infected--and that also requires compassion on the part of care givers, ideally. In many cases, we cannot make the physicians or nurses be more than they are. You cannot MAKE them be more tolerant and decent either, unfortunately. But each of us can do our best to show compassion.I can relate to your feelings about your brother. You did ask and let him know about condoms. He chose not to and became infected. That is not your fault. Is it his fault? He may well perceive it in terms of "fault" and one must address that.I urged my brother to drop crack and booze. He was a biker and a complete free will person and my greatest guru in learning the lesson that you cannot MAKE anyone do anything.In the end, he DID stop it all and produced a few paintings, despite the pain he was in. He died in 2004 at the age of 46 from lung cancer.I would urge anyone to consider their options and offer those options freely. It is then their free will...and no matter what ANY of us do--we shall all die some day, all too soon.All the more reason to love the ones around us and take care the best we can. On May 10, 2012, at 9:45 PM, jsousa8946@... wrote:Agree but, there will always be people who don't use condoms and will not be convinced to use them. I always call treatment as prevention as a part of harm reduction. What we shouldn't do is judge those who don't. As soon as one is judged he will never tell anyone what risks he takes. As for STI's, gay men have always had higher rates and it won't change in my lifetime. Encourage people to get tested often, but don't judge them. We have enough judgement from society, we shouldn't judge our own. We are diverse and will always be. I have been openly positive since my diagnosis to family, friends and co-workers. Especially to my younger gay brother, I never thought I was judgemental when I asked him on a regular basis if he was playing safe and whether he was getting tested regularly. He only found out that he was positive when he was hospitalized with pneumocystis and esophageal candidiasis and a CD4 count of seven. Could I have done more? Could I have convinced him to play safe or get tested? Probably. Never say or even think of saying "but I told you". I've heard that far too often in our community. I never did, what I did think of was how and if there was a way of preventing it. So preach what you believe in preaching, but don't judge them.

Sousa

---- Original Message ----

From: <fiar@...>

< >

Sent: Tue, May 8, 2012 10:58 am

Subject: Re: Re: Positive Prevention

I agree that safer sex is necessary still. The European study on the one hand gives great hope: treating people IS prevention. But it does not mean abandoning use of condoms and access to clean needles. Indeed, other studies suggest that undetectable viral load in the blood does not necessarily reflect whether there is virus in the semen--there can be. While undetectable viral load reduces transmission risk, it does not eliminate it.

And indeed, a blood test at one point doesn't mean it stays the same til the next test--viral load can go up.

We need all the elements at our disposal to continue to fight the spread of HIV, to provide treatment to those in need worldwide and SOONER than later--find a cure for HIV infection.

M.

On May 7, 2012, at 10:14 PM, POSITIVE VOICE wrote:

I write this message to anyone and everyone who wishes to read this. There has been recently a lot of information on the subject of people living with HIV who have an undetectable viral load and free from other sexually transmitted infections can have unprotected sexual intercourse with there partners (whether they are HIV or not). This was reported after some research in a European country.

My question to this group is should we concentrate on prevention messages (safer sex) than looking at treatment as prevention?

I say all of this due to been told by certain professionals that condoms fail and a female friend of mine was informed by a GUM Clinic nurse

that it was OK for her to have unprotected sex after her viral load was undetectable and after over 5 years coming to terms with her status.

Finally after living with HIV for nearly 30 years it has always been my aim to keep the pressures on authorities to promote safer sex for all.

Am I wrong sharing this and could someone on this group please guide me in what I should do.

Snaith

[Guest guest]

Oh , I understand--thanks for the apology but not needed. You were stating what was in your heart and I got that it wasn't just a comment to me....and it opened up an important area of discussion I hope!!georgeOn May 10, 2012, at 10:33 PM, jsousa8946@... wrote:I really do apologize, my intent was not to state that you had condemnation in your statement but there was in my perception in the post you responded to. Sorry the first two words "I agree" was for your post, I do see where I went wrong. Thanks

[Guest guest]

Oh , I understand--thanks for the apology but not needed. You were stating what was in your heart and I got that it wasn't just a comment to me....and it opened up an important area of discussion I hope!!georgeOn May 10, 2012, at 10:33 PM, jsousa8946@... wrote:I really do apologize, my intent was not to state that you had condemnation in your statement but there was in my perception in the post you responded to. Sorry the first two words "I agree" was for your post, I do see where I went wrong. Thanks

[Guest guest]

I have to agree, the key here is the plural S in the word partners.And may be not even then, but with multiple partners a condomis a definitive must.Question:have we learned anythingfrom our HIV infection? Must we repeat the same mistake with Herpes (for life) or anal wartsleading to anal cancer?Yes sex feels really good especiallywhen drunk or worse, but I would give itall up if I could get my health and look back.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 12, 2012, at 8:37 AM, Gennady Roshchupkin <gennady_roshchupkin@...> wrote:

Dears,I live with HIV for at least 24 years and follow a rule that a condom protects my partners as well as me. I don't need any other infections in addition to HIV.So the pills is not a solution for me.Gena From: Tony <jeton@...> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 10:57 PM Subject:

Re: Positive Prevention

this is false. i never, ever use condoms...but i take my meds every day on time, with exactly 100% adherence. i know DOZENS of other gay men who do the same.

furthermore, i know that a handful of these men r HIV-negative and actually on PrEP...most in this group r financially well off, while one 20-something professional buys his PrEPpy Truvada from India at a price he quoted being around "$200 monthly".

i also live in Harlem and know (and am approached by) many young gay black men who call themselves HIV- and would never be able to afford that cost...but engage in raw sex anyway.

among most PrEP opponents i encounter a profound underestimation of just how intensely and utterly many men despise condoms. we don't care about all the different brands, we don't carew about flavored condoms, we don't care about the female condom, we don't care about anyone's rage and indignation.

it remains shocking how many activists will declare on one hand that "everyone knows about the need for condoms, so everyone should take responsibility for their own health" ...yet on the other hand say "we haven't given condoms enough effort or funding or boosterism...if we try harder, everyone will use them".

u will never get everyone to use them, not even close. it's time for our community to face that fact and expand the arsenal.

when i last discussed my raucous and always-raw sex life here last time, i was too amused at all the personal attacks i received via email to bother reporting them to .

it only underlined that many r too comfortable with their heads in the sand...

PrEP requires education to work properly. and funding. and coverage. and a curtailing of sexual fundamentalism.

Jeton

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> People that don't use condoms probably won't take a pill every day consistently either.

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[Guest guest]

See? This conversation created an incredible dialogue, an emotional, possibly cathartic.That's fine--it's an emotional issue, fucking and sex and all. Of course, people DO make conscious decisions about condoms or not. Sero-sorting works for some. For others, it's a crap shoot.What I was thinking about was sero-negative individuals who wish to use PREP. Some at very high risk may not take a pill consistently every day--there ARE some people who are not responsible because they're not really thinking about ANY kind of infection. I've been there--I use to shoot heroin and drink....I didn't think much about HIV back in the 80s, for example. Some people are liars and assholes, for some of their lives, some for most of their lives.Sex is great. Sex is boring. Sex is like taking a good shit. Sex is sublime, Sex is tantra. Sex is shame (for some, sometimes). Sex is pleasure and joy. Domination and submission. Ecstasy, horror, the last thing some lucky stiffs do in life. It is a lot of things.HIV, syphilis, gonorrhea, HPV, chlamydia. These are infections. Judgement on these? Feh. Life is mortality. Life is living. Life is facing our own death...and having a hell of a ride along the way. I'm not here to condemn or praise, blame or deny. Life is the reality of living with, treating, managing, curing these possible infections when they arise. Life is about avoiding these pains, or plunging directly into the risk of them.So if you take the risks with yourself and others and they share as openly as possible, I think this is ethically stronger. If you fuck blindly, drunkenly, with chaos and craziness, this is life too. Judge? We are our own harshest judges most often--and I believe in looking at those underlying myths/beliefs/constructs. Pretending a pill is the whole answer is crazy when it is not a cure--but same for condoms. The best answer will be a cure. M. On 05/12/12, M C<macsfla@...> wrote: , that is not true. I take my medicines every day for almost 20 years and never wear condom. I only play with other poz guys not neg guys .My health is excellent so safe sex is full of BS.MarkOn Fri, May 11, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Tony <jeton@...> wrote: this is false. i never, ever use condoms...but i take my meds every day on time, with exactly 100% adherence. i know DOZENS of other gay men who do the same.furthermore, i know that a handful of these men r HIV-negative and actually on PrEP...most in this group r financially well off, while one 20-something professional buys his PrEPpy Truvada from India at a price he quoted being around " $200 monthly " .i also live in Harlem and know (and am approached by) many young gay black men who call themselves HIV- and would never be able to afford that cost...but engage in raw sex anyway.among most PrEP opponents i encounter a profound underestimation of just how intensely and utterly many men despise condoms. we don't care about all the different brands, we don't carew about flavored condoms, we don't care about the female condom, we don't care about anyone's rage and indignation.it remains shocking how many activists will declare on one hand that " everyone knows about the need for condoms, so everyone should take responsibility for their own health " ...yet on the other hand say " we haven't given condoms enough effort or funding or boosterism...if we try harder, everyone will use them " .u will never get everyone to use them, not even close. it's time for our community to face that fact and expand the arsenal.when i last discussed my raucous and always-raw sex life here last time, i was too amused at all the personal attacks i received via email to bother reporting them to .it only underlined that many r too comfortable with their heads in the sand...PrEP requires education to work properly. and funding. and coverage. and a curtailing of sexual fundamentalism.Jeton>> > People that don't use condoms probably won't take a pill every day consistently either.> >

[Guest guest]

100 % agree regarding the flaming.

This board was a helpful, nurturing place when it started and still is on its facade but there are a LOT of very childish, mean jerks on here that lurk in the dark waiting to pounce on you with the meanest, hurtful, most degrading remarks they can muster. And they are very skilled at this. The last time I ventured into the waters with a comment, I received publically and privately, such comments again. Apparently, I was a stupid, bad, unpatriotic person for my observations on the effectivity of Obama's health care policies within my realm of existence. Surprisingly I also received private encouragement from members who had seen the public lashings, telling me to ignore them, they're idiots. Thing is, I really have better things to do than expose myself to that crap so I usually just delete messages from this list and seldom even bother with this board any more. I think we should all stop quietly accepting this behavior and report every damn incident to , no matter how small it seems, until these nasty hearted trolls are gone.

- Mike

From: back2cali07 [mailto:back2cali07@...] Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Positive Prevention

Hey Jeton, [snip]

What really struck me about your comments was how people were emailingyou privately to attack you. That is totally uncalled for andis listed as one of 's rules NOT to publicly attack or privately via email. We may not like a lot of our opinions but theyare just that, our opinions. I have to add that when I commentedabout my sisters experience with having a colonoscopy done andhaving a allergic reaction to "propofol" I too was "chided" bya member privately firstly because I incorrectly spelled Propofol asPropofil....wheww....and how paramedics are not Dr's ...blah blahblah. I replied to the sender that I "stand corrected" and "thankyou for pointing out my errors". I should have emailed it to but decided to take a higher road. Personally attacking someonebecause you disagree is not the right way to approach any topic.It just makes other people reticent to speak out for fear ofbeing chewed out in private.[snip]